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List Building Question... Input Appreciated!

by mikemcmillan
16 replies
A good number of people will tell me I am a dumb ass for running my business this way, but ethically I feel it is the best way to go.

I work on groing my lists a lot. I use the usual methods and use aWeber which of course uses a double opt-in platform. No problems with that.

More often than not, when I buy a product online, I start getting promotional emails from the product vendor automatically. Now, if there is an opt-in form on their sales page--and I choose to opt in to their list--I expect to get emails from them.

My question, though, is this: Does buying a product from a product vendor implicitly give them permission to start email marketing to you? I think not, but I value your view on this.

I know people talk about the value of a buyer's list, but without buyers making a conscious effort to opt-in to a list--I don't feel that their purchase, in itself, gives one permission to add them to your list.

Am I full of beans in this matter?
#appreciated #building #input #list #question
  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    IMHO if you didn't opt-in to the vendor's list, they have no business emailing any kind of marketing material to you. I would class that as spam and maybe even go as far as asking for a refund from the product I bought. Just because you buy a product, doesn't mean you want to be on their mailing list.

    Now, if you had to opt-in in order to buy the product, then you ARE on their list and if you don't want email from them, just unsubscribe.
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  • Profile picture of the author felixmack
    I agree with your point of view. I don't think buying from the vendor = opt-in. The vendor should give the customer an option to opt-in. I do this myself (I have a 'paid customer' list). I basically present an opt-in page after payment is made but before the download page.
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  • Profile picture of the author Not So New
    In my opinion, if you offer a good product that the client purchased from you and you don't abuse them, with offers all of the time, then I think it's ok to email them.

    Especially if you are are launching another new product of your own.

    Sid
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  • Profile picture of the author radhika
    In those cases:

    Vendors should keep an opt-in form OR tell the buyer that they will receive few emails from the down the road.

    And insert unsubscribe link in every email.

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    If you buy from me, you're definitely on my list.

    In many cases, you'll mainly receive update news (i.e. when there's a product update) and not much else.

    I never feel guilty about putting someone on a list of mine because I don't market to my lists very much. I communicate with my lists and the subscribers seem to appreciate it.
    Most importantly, I don't quite understand what the big deal about unsubscribing is. Right after you sign up to any of my lists, you get an e-mail explaining everything and you can usubscribe anytime, from any of the mails you get.

    I would like to hear what others think about this. Is it really that bad to expect people to unsubscribe when they don't want your mails (as opposed to getting angry, asking for a refund, having their day ruined etc)?
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    • Profile picture of the author brandony
      Interesting question.

      Like someone else mentioned on the backend of a product sale...expect an email. they may need to reach you for something, etc.
      But, I'll even go as far as letting you know...most of my freebies lead to a OTO right now that are hosted on membership sites. I'm not only automatically signing them up to receive the freebie, and onto my email list, but I'm automatically creating affiliate ID's for them. :0

      It's been done for a couple years now. Am I wrong for it...maybe.

      You bring up an interesting question Mike.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Hi Mike,

    I don't think you are being unreasonable, it annoys me to if I purchase something online only to have my in-box spammed with promotional offers, mind you, I don't feel bad at all hitting the spam button in the slightest if that happens. Technically speaking, since you have not given them permision in the first place to send you email, unless stated otherwise, they are sending unsolicited email.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I am not a lasyer, and this is not legal advice, but this is how I understand the legal aspects of this question:

    The CAN-SPAM law tells us that you may send email to someone that you have a relationship with. So, if someone buys a product from you, that creates a relationship, and therefor you are legaly able to send them commercial email or promotions.

    So, I am sorry that the vast majority of posters in this thread so far don't like getting promo email from the vendors that they buy from, the vendors are within their legal rights to do it, whether you opt in to their list or not. Just the fact that you bought from them puts you on their buyers lilst, whether they keep that list or not.
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    Tim Pears

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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
      Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

      IMHO if you didn't opt-in to the vendor's list, they have no business emailing any kind of marketing material to you.
      Your opinion is exactly what that is - because they do have business emailing you - you conducted business - they have a legal right to contact you up to 5 years by whatever means you provide specifically for the purpose of furthering that business relationship.

      Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

      I would class that as spam and maybe even go as far as asking for a refund from the product I bought.
      You can classify it as "turkey bologna" too if you like, but it's nowhere near the definition of "spam" in a legal sense, and if you ask for a refund, you may be within your rights to a no-question one, but you're the one being unfair.

      Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

      Just because you buy a product, doesn't mean you want to be on their mailing list.
      You have the right to ask not to be, but when you make a purchase, they have the RIGHT to add you to their list. The LEGAL RIGHT.

      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      The CAN-SPAM law tells us that you may send email to someone that you have a relationship with. So, if someone buys a product from you, that creates a relationship, and therefor you are legaly able to send them commercial email or promotions.
      Yes, this is correct. I'm not a lawyer either, but I've implemented email policies for both public and private organizations, both before and after "spam" became a legal term.

      A commercial transaction provides the seller with the right to send commercial communications. Would it be NICE to have a separate indicator for marketing messages? Sure. But that's not very good marketing. You take what you can get.

      Businesses shouldn't have to go out of their way to appease the people who DON'T want to buy more stuff. What about the customer who WANTS to hear from you. Shouldn't I try to make that happen for him automatically instead of making him jump through hoops to find out more?

      Shouldn't I cater to THAT outcome since it favors me instead of catering to the guy who wants to buy and be totally anonymous about it?

      Originally Posted by timpears View Post

      So, I am sorry that the vast majority of posters in this thread so far don't like getting promo email from the vendors that they buy from, the vendors are within their legal rights to do it, whether you opt in to their list or not. Just the fact that you bought from them puts you on their buyers lilst, whether they keep that list or not.
      After all, how many of these same people here thinking these thoughts are the kinds of people who use spammy garbage marketing practices to sell affiliate products? I bet a lot.

      If you don't want to receive email, don't provide your email address. You have the legal right to be REMOVED from any list on your request, but you have no say on whether you get added once you make a purchase.

      EDIT To Add: In fact, in further reading, it turns out you can send unsolicited commercial email to anyone whenever you feel like it as long as you obey the guidelines which I've posted below in my later responses.
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      • Profile picture of the author scrofford
        Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

        Your opinion is exactly what that is - because they do have business emailing you - you conducted business - they have a legal right to contact you up to 5 years by whatever means you provide specifically for the purpose of furthering that business relationship.



        You can classify it as "turkey bologa" too if you like, but it's nowhere near the definition of "spam" in a legal sense, and if you ask for a refund, you may be within your rights to a no-question one, but you're the one being unfair.

        So again, it is better to be safe than sorry. I wouldn't send emails to anyone that didn't opt in to my list.


        You have the right to ask not to be, but when you make a purchase, they have the RIGHT to add you to their list. The LEGAL RIGHT.



        Yes, this is correct. I'm not a lawyer either, but I've implemented email policies for both public and private organizations, both before and after "spam" became a legal term.

        A commercial transaction provides the seller with the right to send commercial communications. Would it be NICE to have a separate indicator for marketing messages? Sure. But that's not very good marketing. You take what you can get.

        Businesses shouldn't have to go out of their way to appease the people who DON'T want to buy more stuff. What about the customer who WANTS to hear from you. Shouldn't I try to make that happen for him automatically instead of making him jump through hoops to find out more?

        Shouldn't I cater to THAT outcome since it favors me instead of catering to the guy who wants to buy and be totally anonymous about it?



        After all, how many of these same people here thinking these thoughts are the kinds of people who use spammy garbage marketing practices to sell affiliate products? I bet a lot.

        Bottom line with "spam" is that it's "unsolicited" - if you gave me your email address, you solicited. If you don't want to receive email, don't provide your email address. You have the legal right to be REMOVED from any list on your request, but you have no say on whether you get added once you make a purchase.
        I understand what you are saying in all of these, but where in the CANSPAM laws does it say that someone has a right to send me an email about other products or whatnot just because I purchased a product. I don't see that anywhere. So until you show me this, my opinion won't budge.

        I see where it talks about updating a customer about an "already agreed upon transaction" or updating a customer about an ongoing transaction, but nowhere is it saying that it is legal to send information continuously about other products. Regardless if you purchased a product from the merchant already. A lot of this is based on interpretation of the law. We are not attorneys so I don't think what you have said is set in stone.
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

          I understand what you are saying in all of these, but where in the CANSPAM laws does it say that someone has a right to send me an email about other products or whatnot just because I purchased a product. I don't see that anywhere. So until you show me this, my opinion won't budge.

          I see where it talks about updating a customer about an "already agreed upon transaction" or updating a customer about an ongoing transaction, but nowhere is it saying that it is legal to send information continuously about other products. Regardless if you purchased a product from the merchant already. A lot of this is based on interpretation of the law. We are not attorneys so I don't think what you have said is set in stone.
          The CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business

          On this page, you'll see that in order to send purely commercial messages to a customer legally acquired, all you have to do is be compliant with the can spam rules which in brief are:

          1. don't make it look like it's from someone it's not
          2. don't use a deceptive subject line
          3. identify the message as an ad
          4. give an address
          5. provide an opt-out
          6. fulfill opt-out requests promptly
          7. ensure that people mailing on your behalf comply

          Again, I can send you a PURELY COMMERCIAL EMAIL if you are my "customer" as long as I follow the rules. It's all right there.
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          • Profile picture of the author scrofford
            Originally Posted by Colin Theriot View Post

            The CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business

            On this page, you'll see that in order to send purely commercial messages to a customer legally acquired, all you have to do is be compliant with the can spam rules which in brief are:

            1. don't make it look like it's from someone it's not
            2. don't use a deceptive subject line
            3. identify the message as an ad
            4. give an address
            5. provide an opt-out
            6. fulfill opt-out requests promptly
            7. ensure that people mailing on your behalf comply

            Again, I can send you a PURELY COMMERCIAL EMAIL if you are my "customer" as long as I follow the rules. It's all right there.
            On their website it doesn't talk about this. It does not say anything about who you can send the email to. It doesn't say that you can send an email to a "customer" legally acquired. It just gives those 7 guidelines for "Commercial Email."

            The point isn't about whether someone can send commercial email. The point is whether it was right for someone to place a customer on their email list and promote to them after buying a product and not opting into the vendors list.

            Nowhere does it talk about the legalities of sending an email to someone who is not opted into your list. It is always better to caution on the side of error.
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            • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
              Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

              The point isn't about whether someone can send commercial email. The point is whether it was right for someone to place a customer on their email list and promote to them after buying a product and not opting into the vendors list.
              You do realize there's no difference between sending you commercial email and putting you on my email list, right? They are the same thing. I put you on the list to send you the email, and I'm sending you the email because you're on the list.

              Here's something though. The reason it doesn't classify who you can send email to on that page is because I was wrong. You can legally send UNSOLICITED commercial email to ANYONE (even without an opt-in of any kind) as long as it complies to the above rules.

              There's more info here:
              CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              All of the opting in and double opting in is NOT law, but is best practice.

              I can email YOU an ad right now, and as long as I had those 7 things in place, I would be totally legal. You learn something new every day.

              NOTE: Most commercial bulk senders will require you to at least do single opt-in and some require double.

              But yeah, "caution on the side of error" as much as you want dude.
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  • Profile picture of the author AHartzell
    I have gotten emails from companies that I've purchased from. But a lot of companies have an option to get emails (but it's default is yes of course). I don't mind that because it still gives the customer an option.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Well, thank you all for your views. You all make good points and I will have to think on this for a bit. I would have been discourage if everyone agreed 100% one way or the other--but sometimes getting different perspectives is good for the soul.

    Like I said, I'll have to thin this over a while. Your comments are all appreciated!

    --Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Easy_Money
    Not to beat a dead horse in regards to the Can-Spam Act, but this was also upheld in the telecommunications laws in regards to telemarketers long before the Can-Spam laws. Any business transactions establish a relationship which permits the vendor to contact you for product or marketing purposes. Forgive me, as I do not recall the name of the telecommunications law any more.

    Telephones are nearly obsolete anymore anyways, aren't they?
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