The LIES about Continuity and Membership income

[dbarnum]

Many excellent points here on both sides. I’m very much for good working continuity programs for products and services. What happens, though, is that people need to grow their memberships with the times: with their target audience and technology.

For instance, head to Amazon.com and see how many different subscriptions there are:
- Magazines
- Books of the month
- CD / DVDs, Videos, etc. of the month
- Print newsletters
- Cookbooks
- Toys
- And more…

Many do well. Check their history. But they grow: they restructure, they add online components, they offer service and support, etc.

The negative side is that some people, some IMers want to take a quick way out, setup something one time and run. While that may work for some business models, even the best ezine or other product needs updated once in awhile. Load it and go, sure, but come back and revise the content at least once a year, maybe add a new section to bring in new readers as old ones check out, which is normal and a fact of all business models.

So simple can work, but remember to at least review what you have out there annually. Magazine publishers, do. Book publishing companies do. Cookbook publishers do (especially tuning in to lite recipes, for example).

Conduct membership tune –ups, at least.

I’ve stuck with several good continuity programs long-term, and they have this in common:

1) Support – no tail chasing and hunting folks down.
2) Generally a means to join their affiliate program to earn from the experience as well
3) Owners keep their products and services updated regularly
4) Most often they come up with new product / service lines to use and sell
5) Support – need to repeat: this is important. It’s great when people are there to help with their products, services and affiliate programs.

Good thread!

[lpstoops]

I have to agree. I've tried the membership site route, and though I disagree with you, it is very profitable if done well, I didn't like the immense amounts of work it took on my part to keep the members happy and active.

I think that the ones who really push membership sites to other marketers are the ones who often have a pre-existing staff handling the leg work. Now I could be wrong and I'll accept the criticism, because I've never had a staff working for me...just myself running my business.

If you're looking for something easy and low maintenance, this is not the solution.

[Eric Louviere]

A. If I'm reading this thread right, and it is criticizing membership sites and continuity and salesletter techniques, then it's the stupidest thread I've ever read in the history of this forum, period.

IMO, Chris has hit on about every point I was thinking reading through this.

And, what type of RE membership site was it? RE Investing... RE agents??

So, let me get this right, because this has got to be the most ridiculous thread I've ever read. Ken put in eight k into a membership site that did not work, so now... be careful because membership sites, continutiy, sales letter techniques, etc etc dont work and are lies??

Lies???

LIES??

Am I the only one that see's this as total BS?

Ok, I must have had someone slip something into my cherry coke. I'm not thinking right tonight. I MUST have not read this thread right and I MUST have missed the point. I sure hope so, because it seems a ton of people are chiming in supporting how all of this is LIES.

alright, maybe I'm talking to the wrong people.

NEWBIES or those of you who have not made squat online, listen and listen good.

MEMBERSHIP SITES, CONTINUITY, NEWSLETTERS, AUTO-RESPONDER MEMBERSHIP SITES, ALL THAT --- INCLUDING "SALESLETTERS THAT SELL AND USE PERSUASIVE TECHNIQUES" WORK AND THEY WORK DAMN GOOD IN A WHOLE BUNCH OF MARKETS WITH PASSIONATE BUYERS!

IT IS ONE OF THE VERY BEST --- YES, BUSINESS MODELS/SALES PROCESSES/SYSTEMS/WHATEVER YOU WANT TO LABEL IT --- WAYS TO MAKE MONEY ONLINE

And, yes, it takes work. The entire existence of mankind "works" to earn big money. What does not take work?? Is there really that many people here that think you can flip a switch, go to sleep and earn six figures doing nothing?

But listen, you really can create a dripped membership site that drips content over a long period of time, even a year or more. where you put in work, but earn over and over and over again.

CHURN: Of course there's churn. You lose people on one end, do everything you can to increase stickyness, and bring people in on the other end.

NEWBIES: one of the best things you can do is learn/master how to drive traffic constantly. It's why so many never make squat. Once you have that down, you just continue driving traffic.

But wait, isnt that work too? Of course it is. It takes work to manage PPC campaigns. You can outsource that though if you like freeing up your time. It's all a process, not flip of a switch.

Ok, ok, ok... maybe for some crazy weird strange reason they dont work in the RE market at all. I mean all of the RE market came together and said, "lets never ever buy into a membership site". I mean, the RE market is just not passionate.

Hell, I just realized. If this is RE agents market (helping RE agents make more, etc) then I know of a membership site that's huge and awesome from what I gather. Is this RE investing then? 'Cause that's a huge, passionate market.

Anyway, normally, I'd just stay out of this stupid thread and let everyone just throw daggers at the gurus, but c'mon. LIES??

Unbelievable. Listen, if you want to make money, sell stuff. Stop listening to people bitch about marketing tactics. It'll get you nowhere. I can just imagine, some newbie came along thinking of running a membership site. Maybe they bought said launch. They are motivated and excited. Then, they come along and read this piece of garbage and give up.

Total, 100%, slam dunk BS

LIES??

Stupid

Eric

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Eric Louviere

A. If I'm reading this thread right, and it is criticizing membership sites and continuity and salesletter techniques, then it's the stupidest thread I've ever read in the history of this forum, period.

IMO, Chris has hit on about every point I was thinking reading through this.

And, what type of RE membership site was it? RE Investing... RE agents??

So, let me get this right, because this has got to be the most ridiculous thread I've ever read. Ken put in eight k into a membership site that did not work, so now... be careful because membership sites, continutiy, sales letter techniques, etc etc dont work and are lies??

Lies???

LIES??

Am I the only one that see's this as total BS?

Ok, I must have had someone slip something into my cherry coke. I'm not thinking right tonight. I MUST have not read this thread right and I MUST have missed the point. I sure hope so, because it seems a ton of people are chiming in supporting how all of this is LIES.

alright, maybe I'm talking to the wrong people.

NEWBIES or those of you who have not made squat online, listen and listen good.

MEMBERSHIP SITES, CONTINUITY, NEWSLETTERS, AUTO-RESPONDER MEMBERSHIP SITES, ALL THAT --- INCLUDING "SALESLETTERS THAT SELL AND USE PERSUASIVE TECHNIQUES" WORK AND THEY WORK DAMN GOOD IN A WHOLE BUNCH OF MARKETS WITH PASSIONATE BUYERS!

IT IS ONE OF THE VERY BEST --- YES, BUSINESS MODELS/SALES PROCESSES/SYSTEMS/WHATEVER YOU WANT TO LABEL IT --- WAYS TO MAKE MONEY ONLINE

And, yes, it takes work. The entire existence of mankind "works" to earn big money. What does not take work?? Is there really that many people here that think you can flip a switch, go to sleep and earn six figures doing nothing?

But listen, you really can create a dripped membership site that drips content over a long period of time, even a year or more. where you put in work, but earn over and over and over again.

CHURN: Of course there's churn. You lose people on one end, do everything you can to increase stickyness, and bring people in on the other end.

NEWBIES: one of the best things you can do is learn/master how to drive traffic constantly. It's why so many never make squat. Once you have that down, you just continue driving traffic.

But wait, isnt that work too? Of course it is. It takes work to manage PPC campaigns. You can outsource that though if you like freeing up your time. It's all a process, not flip of a switch.

Ok, ok, ok... maybe for some crazy weird strange reason they dont work in the RE market at all. I mean all of the RE market came together and said, "lets never ever buy into a membership site". I mean, the RE market is just not passionate.

Hell, I just realized. If this is RE agents market (helping RE agents make more, etc) then I know of a membership site that's huge and awesome from what I gather. Is this RE investing then? 'Cause that's a huge, passionate market.

Anyway, normally, I'd just stay out of this stupid thread and let everyone just throw daggers at the gurus, but c'mon. LIES??

Unbelievable. Listen, if you want to make money, sell stuff. Stop listening to people bitch about marketing tactics. It'll get you nowhere. I can just imagine, some newbie came along thinking of running a membership site. Maybe they bought said launch. They are motivated and excited. Then, they come along and read this piece of garbage and give up.

Total, 100%, slam dunk BS

LIES??

Stupid

Eric

Yep Eric, you're right. This "piece of garbage" thread I started is so stupid that 35 people (so far) have thanked me for it - including several highly respected members of this forum.

And yes, I'm sure hundreds of marketers will "give up" as a result of reading it. Give me a break.

Some thoughts for you to consider.

1) For gosh sakes man, the title was to get people to open the thread. You as an ultra-accomplished marketer should know this. Yikes. Don't look now Eric but YOU are bitching about a marketing tactic.

2) Even though maaaannnny people have taken this thread far away from it's original premise, that premise still remains the same: don't look at continuity income as a magic pill. It ain't. And a number of people with real-life membership site experience have agreed on this thread for just that reason: it ain't a magic pill (which was clearly the point of the thread - did you bother reading my follow-up posts to get things back to the premise of the OP?)

3) You and I both know that many new and intermediate marketers look at the concept of "ongoing recurring income" as the be-all-end-all. And don't get me wrong, it's fantastic....but ONLY within the context of a solid business approach that focuses on the key things you yourself stated. (Don't look now Eric but we actually agree - you said the exact same thing I did but in your own words, which is to stay focused on the most important business fundamentals)

4) You and I also know that a lot of what gets stated on sales pages for said membership training products is over-generalized BULL****. Let's not pretend this isn't the case. This was NOT a bashing post. I'm simply relaying what happens to be a valuable real-life example about how operating with blinders on as to what's real can be detrimental. That's not valuable to someone who's newer or just starting out? Come on.

Bottom line - there's an interesting discussion going on here with insights that are benefiting a lot of folks. I couldn't really care less how you took what I personally wrote, but why come in and crap on what is clearly an interesting and valuable discussion to many here?

Ken

[abelacts]

Originally Posted by Frank Bruno

I've ran membership sites off and on for years and I can tell you they can be quite lucrative if you're in the right market.

Frank Bruno

Thanks for sharing your insights, Ken. Don't blame it on membership site approach when you failed once. Learn from it as continuity is one of the best models. Frank said it best and you have to learn from this fundamental principle - choosing the right market.

[Anthony Hull]

Hey Warriors,

Just wanted to chime in here.

I've worked on both "one-time" products and "membership" products and by far the membership model has proved most lucrative.

As other posters have said, as long as you provide good quality content, consistantly and provide your members with exceptional support, there's no reason why they will drop out in droves.

I know many marketers find it difficult to start and run a membership site which is why I developed my Readymade Membership Sites business and a good proportion of my customers have done well with it.

Interestingly though, the marketers who get the best results with my readymade sites are the ones who:

1. Don't just sit back and think members will fall from trees
2. They actively seek out affiliates/JV partners to help promote their sites and offer free access to those people so they can see what they are going to be promoting
3. They actively build targetted traffic to their sites using methods including PPC, article marketing and list building
4. They don't just use membership sites as a way to get customers directly, but also use them as BONUSES for customers that buy their other products / affiliate products they are recommending.
5. They either have an existing list which they have built up, or seek other people to JV (who already have big lists - see 2) )
6. They spend some time ADDING MORE VALUE to their membership site by adding additional products to the backend or adding additional bonuses to the sales page.
7. They KEEP IN TOUCH with the members that they DO get and upsell additional offers on the backend (remember it's easier to sell to existing customers, than to get new ones)

Other points about why membership sites are so good include:

• If you build up a fairly decent member base (and especially if they are PAYING members) you can later sell the site for ALOT of $$$$, much more than you could get for selling a site based on a one-time product
• If you make videos of how you create the content for your sites, you can easily OUTSOURCE the monthly work that you have to do. For example, one of my businesses costs me only 20% of my gross profits to completely outsource, so I only spend 1 hour a month on it personally.
• Because your members are continuously RE-VISITING your member's area, you can easily promote other offers to them WITHOUT having to bombard their inbox. Also, if these offers are for "members only" and some sort of discount is available, your up-take will be greater.

Cheers,

Anthony

[lpstoops]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Yep Eric, you're right. This "piece of garbage" thread I started is so stupid that 35 people (so far) have thanked me for it - including several highly respected members of this forum.

And yes, I'm sure hundreds of marketers will "give up" as a result of reading it. Give me a break.

Some thoughts for you to consider.

1) For gosh sakes man, the title was to get people to open the thread. You as an ultra-accomplished marketer should know this. Yikes. Don't look now Eric but YOU are bitching about a marketing tactic.

2) Even though maaaannnny people have taken this thread far away from it's original premise, that premise still remains the same: don't look at continuity income as a magic pill. It ain't. And a number of people with real-life membership site experience have agreed on this thread for just that reason: it ain't a magic pill (which was clearly the point of the thread - did you bother reading my follow-up posts to get things back to the premise of the OP?)

3) You and I both know that many new and intermediate marketers look at the concept of "ongoing recurring income" as the be-all-end-all. And don't get me wrong, it's fantastic....but ONLY within the context of a solid business approach that focuses on the key things you yourself stated. (Don't look now Eric but we actually agree - you said the exact same thing I did but in your own words, which is to stay focused on the most important business fundamentals)

4) You and I also know that a lot of what gets stated on sales pages for said membership training products is over-generalized BULL****. Let's not pretend this isn't the case. This was NOT a bashing post. I'm simply relaying what happens to be a valuable real-life example about how operating with blinders on as to what's real can be detrimental. That's not valuable to someone who's newer or just starting out? Come on.

Bottom line - there's an interesting discussion going on here with insights that are benefiting a lot of folks. I couldn't really care less how you took what I personally wrote, but why come in and crap on what is clearly an interesting and valuable discussion to many here?

Ken

Thanks for defending what you were writing. It's important to express truth when you know it to the masses that read this stuff. Much of the crap spread around the net to unsuspecting newbie’s is pure hype with about 1% of fact. There some reality in this thread that really should be read by those of you who are trying to start your online business. If you're just getting into this industry, take to heart what's being said here. Learn to read between the lies, ooops, Lines, in order to make the most accurate and wise decision.

Many 'guru' have the sob story for why it took them so long to make a red cent online. IT’S BECAUSE SO MANY OTHER MERKETERS WERE FEEDING THEM GARBAGE. There are many out there that are sharing knowledge that can actually make you a lot of money if you apply it! There are even more sending you down a rabbit hole and walking away with your money...don't be one of them (I'm talking to you marketers, not the newbie’s)....

[cashcorpinc]

I make a little over $50K a month in continuity revenue in the... wait on it... REAL ESTATE niche.

Maybe you DO need the "flavor of the month" course to learn how to do it CORRECTLY.

If you're in ANY niche, selling info or consumables, and you are NOT using continuity, you should be ashamed to call yourself a marketer.

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by cashcorpinc

I make a little over $50K a month in continuity revenue in the... wait on it... REAL ESTATE niche.

Maybe you DO need the "flavor of the month" course to learn how to do it CORRECTLY.

If you're in ANY niche, selling info or consumables, and you are NOT using continuity, you should be ashamed to call yourself a marketer.

Hmmm...let's see here....

1) You just joined the forum last month
2) You aren't using your real name and instead hiding behind a username
3) You've provided ZERO specifics or substantiation as to your supposed $50k per month in continuity income

Maybe you should read my OP again. The lesson I learned was early on in my marketing career.

Since then I've been full-time for five years and have generated over $5 million in revenue in...yes...the real estate investing niche. So with all due respect the last person I need advice from is you.

And for the 27th time I never said continuity models were bad!!! I said they are not a magic pill nor a substitute for an underlying business model.

Instead of useless brick throwing how about offering some value to the thread that can....gee I dunno....HELP people?

Respectfully,
Ken

[Rod Cortez]

I actually agree with the heart of Ken and Eric's posts within their proper context (except the BS part). I think some people took Ken's post a little out of context. Here's my take on it: I think Ken made an excellent point in bringing the REALITY that membership sites take work and that generally the salesmanship behind the promotion can be quite hypey. And I've been writing copy for well over a decade (longer if you include direct mail) in a variety of niches.

I didn't see anywhere where Ken said membership sites were bad, he was just busting out the reality that it's NOT easy and be careful with some of the promises that have been made.

Eric's passion came through and totally understand it because membership sites can and DO work, very effectively, which I think ties into Ken's post much more than he realized because if you focus on the underlying business and not solely on the strategy then it can possibly work for you.

Like anything else, there are a lot of variables to consider. Ken's bottom line was not to be "seduced by strategy" and I agree with that. The take away I got from Eric's post was that continuity programs can and do work and that it's a great strategy.

I saw two sides of the same coin. Awright, where's my coffee grinder?

RoD

[lpstoops]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Hmmm...let's see here....

1) You just joined the forum last month
2) You aren't using your real name and instead hiding behind a username
3) You've provided ZERO specifics or substantiation as to your supposed $50k per month in continuity income

Maybe you should read my OP again. The lesson I learned was early on in my marketing career.

Since then I've been full-time for five years and have generated over $5 million in revenue in...yes...the real estate investing niche. So with all due respect the last person I need advice from is you.

And for the 27th time I never said continuity models were bad!!! I said they are not a magic pill nor a substitute for an underlying business model.

Instead of useless brick throwing how about offering some value to the thread that can....gee I dunno....HELP people?

Respectfully,
Ken

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

[Mike Hill]

Ken,

It may have been the way you presented the offer.

Did you try selling a low cost membership to real estate brokers and teach them how to get better results through their marketing, how to close faster, how to get more visitors to their open houses, how to handle a bigger portfolio, and so on?

This to me, presented the right way may be a good way of going about it. All the bells and whistles mean jack if it's not presented in the right way (i.e. Irresistible) ...

The two things brokers are looking for are more leads and faster closes... Give them that and see what happens!


Mike Hill

PS. I own membership sites and they are the easiest cash I've ever made. They are easy to maintain, you just have to know how to manage it. yes... manage it... Don't try and create all the content yourself.

[Eric Louviere]

My post was a bit harsh on Ken and that was not my intention.

I do agree with you that there is a TON of garbage out there and people do get taken to the cleaners often by proclaimed gurus (and by a ton of people who have never made any money before online but still sell how to make a ton of money online products)

I just get very tired of people ripping on the very things that actually do work... and work well. For example, I remember when EVERYONE was saying how the content network in Adwords was terrible and to stay away from it.

Meanwhile, I was cleaning house with the content network.

Anyway, your title worked as you planned, it created empathy with me, that's for sure. I did not read it as "marketing" tactic, which is great btw, I read it as another person complaining about things that I know for a fact have worked great for me personally and has worked for many others I know close as well.

Anyway, I wish you the best and I lOVE the RE Investing niche market. It's a great one IMO!

Eric

[xlfutur1]

Originally Posted by cashcorpinc

I make a little over $50K a month in continuity revenue in the... wait on it... REAL ESTATE niche.

Maybe you DO need the "flavor of the month" course to learn how to do it CORRECTLY.

If you're in ANY niche, selling info or consumables, and you are NOT using continuity, you should be ashamed to call yourself a marketer.

I think the original post might have been made by a situation where "testing" was not an integral part of the business model.

Before I would drop 8K on anything I would certainly test to see if it was something people wanted.

I have had a membership program for a little over a year now with very little attrition but it cost very little to implement other than an email or two from current subscribers to a list that cost nothing essentially.

The key is to find exactly what people want and area willing to pay for, then once you know that, you simply exceed their monthly expectations with good content.

Is it work? of course, but there certainly is an element of leverage and consistency for selling one product to a select group of people each and every month.

If it takes you one day to fulfill, and you have 100 members paying 10 bucks per month, that's a pretty good day's pay for anyone. And you don't even have to quit your day job.

The gurus might gloss over the drawbacks and some important details, but the concept is still a good one. You just have to spend as little as possible testing your niche before you roll out.

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Yep Eric, you're right. This "piece of garbage" thread I started is so stupid that 35 people (so far) have thanked me for it - including several highly respected members of this forum.

Keep in mind that people will always thank you for validating their self-limiting thoughts.

I think you're critiquing sales copy as opposed to critiquing a method of making money. I'm not into the over-the-top promise-the-world stuff either, but a membership/subscription model IS the way to ensure a steady income online.

Problem is, most IMers (that probably includes a large number of the people who thanked you) don't want to work hard and can't stay focused on a project long enough to make it work.

YES...membership sites are hard work, but (Ken, "you" is used figuratively here...I'm not speaking directly to you):

1. No one says you have to do all the work. When you plan your membership PLAN the costs of outsourcing. If you can't crunch the numbers to afford hiring help, don't do it.

2. It's not that much work when you focus on making 1 project work before you pile on a ton more.

Retaining members is a challenge, but it's a challenge that can be met if:

1. You get help keeping the membership valuable (oh yeah, outsourcing and getting help!).

2. You keep your focus on the 1 project before moving onto another. Get to know your target market and REALLY deliver to them (oh yeah, that focus thing again).

I feel a bit like a broken record. For those who want to hear it, I think you get the point.

Alice

[RGallowitz]

I run a successful membership site and it takes really REALLY hard work. It's not the "cake walk" people make it out to be. The cost of setting up a decent membership site also far outweighs your normal digital product creation.

It's not as easy as it looks. There are tons of hurdles.

[lassitermarketing]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Ahh, here we are again.

Quick story:

Several years ago shortly after I first started marketing to real estate investors, I had this "great idea" to start a membership site for the industry. I too fell in love with the idea of "ongoing recurring income", because heck, who wouldn't want that?

I decided that my membership site would be filled with real estate articles, a forum, a killer knowledge base...all the same stuff that everyone says to put into a really good membership site.

I also decided I would make it "top notch" by having my web programmer build it from scratch. I spent close to $8,000 (yep, 8 grand) developing the site so it would be exactly the way I wanted it.

And I must say, it was damn impressive. It was miles better than anything else in the real estate industry and I was really proud of that.

But here was the problem: The customers didn't want to pay for a membership! And if I had opened my freakin' eyes rather than become completely seduced by the membership model, I would have seen it clear as day.

It was right in front of me. There were already several HUGE free forums people were flocking to in real estate, and there was no evidence whatsoever that existing customer behavior would have them paying for a membership site. None.

And guess what? They wouldn't pay for it. Gee, who'da thunk it?

So after (gulp) $8K spent and a couple months working that sucker to the bone, I folded it and moved on to something else based on actual evidence that customers WANTED it and were more than willing to pay for it. Within a couple months I was back up to a solid and growing 5 figure monthly income.

Here's the moral of the story:

Do not be seduced by strategy - membership or otherwise.

Focus on your underlying business model as well as providing what your customers want. If the strategy matches these things then move forward. If not, pass and don't think twice.

You'll be glad you did.

Best regards,
Ken

I think the bitterness may come from the fact that you didn't test your offer before spending a ton of money.

I'm in your niche and you're right, they don't want to pay for something they can get for free. Although TCI might beg to differ.

So, doesn't common sense say that you make your offer something that they are willing to pay for on a monthly basis?

I don't understand why continuity programs are getting bashed when they obviously work. And everyone knows that they are work. Do you include negative copy in your sales letters? I doubt I would make many sales if in my offer I told prospects all the pitfalls of what I was selling. Who does that?

[Carl Pruitt]

Originally Posted by radiohead

What I find is people do not want to
pay monthly fees. They would rather be taught how to fish thaN
KEEPING BUYING THE BAIT.

Actually, the average person seems to be more interested in having
someone do the fishing for them and then lay the fish in their
lap.

Promising that some "system" will be easy and very profitable
is classic sales hype that just happens to work time and time
again.

[Sylvan]

This guy was an idiot to try it in the real estate industry. Membership sites do work. You didn't do proper due diligence. You can't say because you failed once that this doesn't work. There are many successful membership site, like Rich Schefren's $350 a MONTH membership site.

Find the right niche and provide quality content and you will have something successful.

[Alminc]

Kyle,

What are your suggestions on how to set up a membership site that does not require a tons of work ?

Almin

[khairi]

Warriors,

You might want to look at the video that Ryan made on his blog:

=> Ryan Deiss BASHED on the Warrior Forum | Driving Traffic

judge for yourself…

[JJ-Undercover]

The OP should be interested in knowing a certain guy whose last name sounds like "dice" posted a video answering all the "lies".

Quite an interesting little video too. It may "seduce" me to buy his program if I watch it again.

Link is above me in other guy's post.

[wkriski]

Jimmy Bruno, a famous jazz guitarist has a membership site for lessons. He charges $20 for his video lessons and forums and also allows students to submit videos of their playing, and he will respond. He signed up over 1300 students at the beginning and provides great value. If that isn't a business model, then what is it exactly?

The fact that your site didn't work doesn't make membership sites a lie. Also spending $8K was completely unnecessary, considering you can set up a site for pretty low cost (my sites cost $99/month). Like any site you have to differentiate yourself. Just because other real estate guys have sites doesn't mean you can't have one too. There are unlimited amounts of niches in any market with proper differentiation. Say you have an idea for a site - you create some content and test the market for it before you really expand it, so you don't want to spend too much up front.

[jjjones]

I've had a membership site for several years now and after the first few months I absolutely hated it. It was a LOT of work. But, then I took a hard look at exactly what I had to do each week to keep the site going and I drew up a plan of action. My goal was to automate everything I could and outsouce the rest. Took me maybe two months to impliment everything but now I spend maybe an hour a month managing the site. And that hour is spent running a spreadsheet to see how much money I've made for the prior month.

Here are a few of things I did:

1) Hired a topic editor. This is basically a writer who comes up with ideas for articles for the site.

2) Hired writers (good writers) that are familar with the topic and had them take the topic ideas from the editor and write the article.

3) Had a script programmed that allows the topic editor to input her topic ideas and the writers to pick the topics they want to write on. They then submit the completed article right back into the same interface.

4) Hired an admin to take the articles each week and post them to the site.

Total cost is less then $500 a month including writing the articles (appx 16 new per month)

That's pretty much it! Now, after 3 years I rarely even look at the site and it generates a nice residual income.

(The membership site I'm referring to is: http://www.businessideafactory.com/)

James

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Eric Louviere

My post was a bit harsh on Ken and that was not my intention.

I do agree with you that there is a TON of garbage out there and people do get taken to the cleaners often by proclaimed gurus (and by a ton of people who have never made any money before online but still sell how to make a ton of money online products)

I just get very tired of people ripping on the very things that actually do work... and work well. For example, I remember when EVERYONE was saying how the content network in Adwords was terrible and to stay away from it.

Meanwhile, I was cleaning house with the content network.

Anyway, your title worked as you planned, it created empathy with me, that's for sure. I did not read it as "marketing" tactic, which is great btw, I read it as another person complaining about things that I know for a fact have worked great for me personally and has worked for many others I know close as well.

Anyway, I wish you the best and I lOVE the RE Investing niche market. It's a great one IMO!

Eric

Thanks Eric. Needless to say I have a great deal of respect for you. That said I was definitely surprised at your earlier post.

But you are correct - there are a ton of complainers. And I could see how parts of my OP could have been taken as such.

We all good.

Ken

[mobear410]

On some levels I agree with you because I feel that $2000 is a huge amount to pay to find out how to MAYBE earn the money back IF you follow the outline exactly which means IF you have more money to pour into it the more money you will earn.

I strongly suggest that people listen very carefully (play it more than once) the freebie that is provided and be absolutely sure you are ready to invest more than $2000 into the "idea" that is being sold. Think carefully and do more research you may find the same or even better information for totally Free.

There are easier methods to earning money on the internet than paying someone $2000 for an "idea"

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Chris,
I understand what you're saying but you're missing the point completely.

I'm not missing the point- you're failing to make one.

Just because you couldn't make a site work doesn't mean someone else can't.

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Hmmm...let's see here....

1) You just joined the forum last month
2) You aren't using your real name and instead hiding behind a username
3) You've provided ZERO specifics or substantiation as to your supposed $50k per month in continuity income

Nice try, but none of those really mean anything.

Someone who is new to the forum automatically doesn't know anything?

(Hint: new to forum doesn't necessarily = new to business.)

Someone who uses a username (which is the norm on most forums) automatically doesn't know anything? Would the post be more valid if it had "Joe Smith" or something on it?

People can't mention income without posting documentation?

You forgot to bash him for not having lots of posts.

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

Nice try, but none of those really mean anything.

Someone who is new to the forum automatically doesn't know anything?

(Hint: new to forum doesn't necessarily = new to business.)

Someone who uses a username (which is the norm on most forums) automatically doesn't know anything? Would the post be more valid if it had "Joe Smith" or something on it?

People can't mention income without posting documentation?

You forgot to bash him for not having lots of posts.

Chris,

After reading your reply on Ryan's blog as well as your two comments above, I get it dude. You're defending your friend Ryan. That's all good - I applaud loyalty.

Here's the funny thing about all this. I never bashed any person OR any method. Not once. Even Ryan knows that. Heck, he's grateful to me right now because I've given his launch more publicity.

All I did was create a provocative post title then write a post that makes what many on this thread have taken as an important point - one I will reiterate yet again:

Membership models are not a magic pill. The sales pages make them out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, yet a lot of people (including many who have responded on this thread) have struggled big-time with them even after following the specific advice of whatever course they bought. Why?

Because (again)....membership models are not a magic pill.

That's all this thread is about. Nothing more, nothing less.

Best regards,
Ken

P.S. I'm actually chucking out loud right now. Ryan used the word "BASHED" in his blog post title for the exact same reason I used the word "LIES" here - to get people to read it! Don't know about anyone else but I just gotta say...this marketing game is plain ol' fun.

[Jason Fladlien]

I've seen Ryan at seminars before giving presentation on his continuity models.

The way Ryan does it is probably the easiest, simplest and most effective way to set up continuity programs. Almost all strategies rely on intelligent ways to either get others to create content for you, or to use continuity based programs that don't involve delivering INFORMATION each month.

The example he gave at one seminar was this -- you're in a continuity program for car insurance. In this case, you actually pay each month to NOT use the service being offered! (I'd love to create a similar continuity program like that!)

Most people have a limited scope on continuity -- they only think membership sites with information being pubilshed, and the person running the membership site is publishing the information. That is the HARDEST continuity model to follow.

By far, the easiest is "interview an expert". Each month you get an expert on the phone for two hours and talk to them. This works unbelievably well in niches that are "information starved" and there are several of those out there.

Also, software application sites are easy. In this case, they have to pay to continue to have access to the software and/or application. No content to create. You can hire people to handle customer service. Turnkey.

I know people who run continuity programs in the way Ryan teaches, and it is by far the easiest money I've ever seen created on the internet. So why be so resistant to such powerful methods?

-Jason

[Mary Greene]

Good morning!

Over on Continuity Blueprint, Ryan Deiss. . . one of the more honest, decent marketers to walk this earth. . . is brushing off the "lies" dust and offering Ken free entrance into his membership to see some new possibilities for his business.

Controversy sells. . .

But how about trying more cooperation and civility to succeed?

Sure, we had a lively discussion, but did most people walk away with more clarity. . . or just that sinking feeling that nothing works online? Meanwhile, in Allen's War Room, cooperation and civility are getting everybody more fired up and productive than I've seen in years.

Let's try it here.

Some gurus deserve to be bashed for ripping people off, and the Warrior Forum puts them in their place FAST. But when people as successful as Eric and others on this thread, when people as super successful as Ryan Deiss offer free advice, why not learn something from them we didn't know yet about memberships?

Ryan's free videos alone were certainly good enough to give me plenty of ideas until I can afford the higher-ticket item.

P.S. Sometimes servers really do crash.

[Adeel_Chowdhry]

Hey Ken.

I think your painting of the picture isn't totally correct.

I only started IM this year and I'll try and give my views over some of your points. I'm not here to bash or anything, just give my view okay..


"My commitment is to two things: 1) helping real people get real results"
Making money from continuity are not real results?


"2) reinforcing simple truths based on experience."
I don't think your experience with the continuity model is that vast. I think a lot of people may take your comments to heart and stay away from a great model.

I kind of feel that you think the best way to make money is to have a one page site where you sell a product for a one time fee...because you couldn't make it work?

Let's go further..


"1) Membership sites involve work"
Com'on man, everything involves work.


"and even to get it built up in the first place - really takes something."
Erm..not really. You're making it sound as if creating a membership site would be like climbing mount Everest! That's far from the truth!

As I said, I only started this year and I now have 3 membership sites.

-> The first one (Super Quick Videos) took me and my friend 2 weeks to put together and we created it without any research or surveys of what the market wanted. The only thing invested was our time and about $150 for the site graphics, and $187 for the aMember script.

For that membership me and my partner create 10 videos a month with PLR for our members.

- that's been running since May or so and is now a 4 figure a month biz, and we don't even do any promotions for it (no ppc etc), and don't have any jv's or even affiliates!


"One of the key things to remember is that customers are NOT inherently interested in paying for something on an ongoing basis. Think about it - if you had the choice would your default desire be to pay for something once or to keep paying for it over and over again?"

That's a totally flawed way of thinking man. If you're offering something of substance, of value, people will pay for it - whether it be one time OR recurring.

In my example above I offered new videos every month...so how could they pay for that one time?...or rather, why WOULDN'T they want to pay me every month for such great material (that would help them in their business...make more money)?

-> After I saw how tasty recurring income was I went about and created another membership site offer something of VALUE. Something that would really help people with their marketing efforts by cutting their time in creating affiliate review sites, promotional articles and emails. Killer Presell Templates! Make Super Affiliate Commissions With These Review Templates was born.

- that is now also a 4 figure a month biz and that's with almost ZERO promotional activity and I don't have any jv's or affiliates! What scares me is if I did go work on getting more customers...i'd make a lot more - I just have a habit from jumping from one thing to another too quickly.


"Often this has to do with continuously providing more and more content, which can be fun but it's certainly a ton of work depending on the nature of the site and content."

It doesn't have to be hard work if you use some leverage. There are so many ways to outsource man, and it CAN be totally hands free if you want it to.

What I did for the 2nd membership site was to partner up with an expert, and have him create the content for me. In return for that, we split revenue both ways.

The only cost involved in creating that site was about $120 for the graphics and $187 for aMember!

Think out of the bedroom.. I mean box!

Anyone can start a good membership site for under $300, and start making an easy $1k/month.

Look what I said above... I have someone ELSE create the content and I do the marketing... and then we split revenue both ways. I just have to do the hard work of sending their money to them at the end of the month via Paypal (logging into Paypal is hard work sometimes!).



"A membership model is NOT a business model"

I think it can be a business model, as well as just another component or system, within your global business.

So here I introduce my next membership site which was a recurring component (membership model) of my ebay training site (iSpy Auction Riches - Make Money On eBay!)

Frontend = ebay video product
Backend upsell = recurring membership for monthly videos in a different area
Backend upsell 2 = mrr

That business model got people in via the frontend and proceeds to generate me monthly recurring income through the membership model component that's attached to the global model.

- turned out to be another 4 figure a month biz!


"The attrition rate with most membership sites is high"

Yeah, I agree. Still, generting 3 months income from a single person is pretty neat in my book (higher customer value compared to one off sales) :-)


"The point is not to get seduced into thinking a membership model is the magic bullet that will solve all your problems."

That's true for anything. Nothing is the magic bullet, except for my ebay course (you'll be rich overnight if you buy it).


"I also decided I would make it "top notch" by having my web programmer build it from scratch. I spent close to $8,000 (yep, 8 grand) developing the site so it would be exactly the way I wanted it."

Look, here's a deal for you. If you want, you can invest a few $k with me and i'll help you set up a membership site...and I wont even rip you off for $8k!


"But here was the problem: The customers didn't want to pay for a membership! And if I had opened my freakin' eyes rather than become completely seduced by the membership model, I would have seen it clear as day."

I think you have to first deduce wether or not your business model warrants a recurring membership component. In many cases, you CAN always think of something valuable to offer your customers on a recurring basis, almost always.

If you've got something right and it's hot and valuable for your members, they'll pay you for it. With that said, I do not agree with what you said.

I'm actually off planning my next site that includes...wait for it.... a recurring model!!

All the best,
Adeel Chowdhry



.

[Alminc]

One of the big problems with launching a membership site is that
people are already offering a LOT of GREAT membership based content
so cheap that it is very, very hard to compete. This of course depends
on niche but in order to, at least theoretically, make some decent
money, chances are you must choose rather competitive niche.

'Overdelivering' is what customers (members) expect from you, plus
you must be unique in some way, you must have some strong USP.
In order to survive (at first) and succeed it is not enough to offer
'tons of content/products' (everyone is offering that), but you must
rise above your competition which can be very expencive and risky.

[Jason Moffatt]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Chris,

After reading your reply on Ryan's blog as well as your two comments above, I get it dude. You're defending your friend Ryan. That's all good - I applaud loyalty.

Here's the funny thing about all this. I never bashed any person OR any method. Not once. Even Ryan knows that. Heck, he's grateful to me right now because I've given his launch more publicity.

All I did was create a provocative post title then write a post that makes what many on this thread have taken as an important point - one I will reiterate yet again:

Membership models are not a magic pill. The sales pages make them out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, yet a lot of people (including many who have responded on this thread) have struggled big-time with them even after following the specific advice of whatever course they bought. Why?

Because (again)....membership models are not a magic pill.

That's all this thread is about. Nothing more, nothing less.

Best regards,
Ken

P.S. I'm actually chucking out loud right now. Ryan used the word "BASHED" in his blog post title for the exact same reason I used the word "LIES" here - to get people to read it! Don't know about anyone else but I just gotta say...this marketing game is plain ol' fun.

So with this rational, I guess it's okay for me to make a post titled...

Ebook Sellers = F%$#ing Dickhead Scam Artists

... just so I can get the thread opened right?

And then of course in the post I'll elude to who the ebook sellers are but
won't actually have the balls to call em out by name?

Hey, it's all just controversy to get my message heard so it's okay, right?

If you are going to throw around words like "Lies", you better have some
substantial proof, and have the balls to tell us who these Liars are.

That's my take on it.

[ebusinesstutor]

Great points, Ken.

I do own a couple of profitable membership sites.

Each site does have a business model for how they earn money. The continuity model is great, as you do earn for many months from each sale.

Each week we add new content, videos, products, training etc. to continually increase the value to our members.

So yes, membership sites do make money, but they also require time and money commitments.

We have some people leave each week, but we have more people joining. So there is definitely turnover.

So we are constantly marketing to bring in more people. Fortunately our affiliates are great at bringing us new members every day.

I strongly believe membership web sites are one of the best ways to build your income online, but they are not as simple as many of the guru sites would have you believe.

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

So with this rational, I guess it's okay for me to make a post titled...

Ebook Sellers = F%$#ing Dickhead Scam Artists

... just so I can get the thread opened right?

And then of course in the post I'll elude to who the ebook sellers are but
won't actually have the balls to call em out by name?

Hey, it's all just controversy to get my message heard so it's okay, right?

If you are going to throw around words like "Lies", you better have some
substantial proof, and have the balls to tell us who these Liars are.

That's my take on it.

Yay - the king of getting attention chimes in.

Based on your reasoning we should eliminate the "Death of...." reports and all such things that create the feel of controversy.

No worries on my end. I indicted no person or product in what I wrote. Most importantly I made my points crystal clear and the significant majority of folks have received the intended lesson I was bringing across.

Best regards,
Ken

[bobsedge]

As Ryan states in his video, his product is about continuity not necessarily membership sites.

Continuity programs work and people will still if you give them a reason to continue.

People continue for a number of reasons.

1. information, products, or services are being delivered that they can not miss
2. they believe they will need the information, products, or services in the future so they continue in the program
3. It is important to the psyche to belong
4. they forget to cancel the program


On low priced programs, number 2 and 4 are the prime reasons they thrive. Fitness club memberships are a clear example. The vast majority of people never go to the gym yet continue paying for their memberships. It is safe to say that if everyone showed up on a regular basis, the gym would fail because the lines would be unbearable.

Also, how many people still pay a monthly fee to aol even theough they don't have to? They just don't get around to canceling especially when small amounts are being charged to credit cards.

The bottom line, continuity systems do work when set up properly and don't work when set up improperly or are a misfit for the particluar niche. Just like anything else, they need to be done in an area where people are willing to spend money.

[blujam]

This was certainly helpful to me, as I am setting up
my 3rd membership site.

I think it's helpful to diversify into different niches,
and find ya some O holics, the passion for the niche,
is what will bring some income...

I liked what mr reese said, my last membership site
was a one time fee of $27, and it worked very well,
we over-delivered and had very few refunds...

I'm taking a note of that because I didn't think anyone
else was doing one-offs...great stuff!

now this next one is gonna be a 4 week coaching program,
so it's a new model to me, but I think it's gonna be a
great case study, so wish me luck!

I'm off to take some more massive action...

)

[Jason Fladlien]

I think people just like to complain.

Obviously there is a solution to easy continuity programs... so instead of focusing on the 90% methods that don't work and generalizing it to everything, it'd be smarter to figure out how guys like Ryan do it.

It has to be easy if Ryan is running several of these, AND speaking at seminars, AND running an internet marketing business AND having a personal life.

He's found a way to do 8 continuity programs with less work and more profits than most people doing 1 membership site. Instead of calling him a liar because it's not easy for you, it's probably smarter to learn what he's doing instead.

-Jason

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien

I think people just like to complain.

Obviously there is a solution to easy continuity programs... so instead of focusing on the 90% methods that don't work and generalizing it to everything, it'd be smarter to figure out how guys like Ryan do it.

It has to be easy if Ryan is running several of these, AND speaking at seminars, AND running an internet marketing business AND having a personal life.

He's found a way to do 8 continuity programs with less work and more profits than most people doing 1 membership site. Instead of calling him a liar because it's not easy for you, it's probably smarter to learn what he's doing instead.

-Jason

Don't look now folks but Ryan has used my post to stir up controversy and gain awareness for his product launch. Heck, I applaud him for it.

Although his followers who are coming here to defend him are among those overlooking the clear premise of my original post....which had nothing specifically to do with Ryan but rather this (which I now repeat for what seems like the 100th time):

A membership/continuity model is not a magic pill.

'Nuff said.
Ken

[Jason Moffatt]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Don't look now folks but Ryan has used my post to stir up controversy and gain awareness for his product launch. Heck, I applaud him for it.

Although his followers who are coming here to defend him are among those overlooking the clear premise of my original post....which had nothing specifically to do with Ryan but rather this (which I now repeat for what seems like the 100th time):

A membership/continuity model is not a magic pill.

'Nuff said.
Ken

Ken,

Can you point to "ONE SINGLE PERSON" who ever said membership/continuity IS a
magic pill?

Seriously, is there ANYONE who has ever said this? I'd love to know.

And if not, then WHO is spreading the so-called LIES?

What exactly are the lies and who is saying them?

I'd love to know.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

A membership/continuity model is not a magic pill.

I don't think anyone is claiming a membership site or continuity model is a "magic pill". A continuity model should be built into any business model if possible. It just makes sense...

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt

Ken,

Can you point to "ONE SINGLE PERSON" who ever said membership/continuity IS a
magic pill?

Seriously, is there ANYONE who has ever said this? I'd love to know.

And if not, then WHO is spreading the so-called LIES?

What exactly are the lies and who is saying them?

I'd love to know.

Jason,

For gosh sakes re-read my OP which hasn't been changed by a single word - as well as my follow up posts on this thread.

It's not that anyone is using the words "magic pill" on these sales pages - it's what is implied by what is being stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

I will also say this. My OP was as much or more so about the people who READ these sales pages taking responsibility for their own impulse to jump to a certain strategy or technique just because they read that it's "easy, reliable consistent monthly income, anyone can do it" etc. etc.

Absent a core business strategy based on 1) an identified customer 2) with a proven want/need and the 3) access to the specific product or information they want, no model will work no matter how great it may sound.

Bottom line: Membership/continuity happens to be one of those that seduces people in theory, yet few can make work exceptionally well in practice. Note proof of that in the responses on this thread.

Best regards,
Ken

[microjob]

Thank you for sharing
microjob

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Ken Preuss

Jason,

For gosh sakes re-read my OP which hasn't been changed by a single word - as well as my follow up posts on this thread.

It's not that anyone is using the words "magic pill" on these sales pages - it's what is implied by what is being stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

I will also say this. My OP was as much or more so about the people who READ these sales pages taking responsibility for their own impulse to jump to a certain strategy or technique just because they read that it's "easy, reliable consistent monthly income, anyone can do it" etc. etc.

Absent a core business strategy based on 1) an identified customer 2) with a proven want/need and the 3) access to the specific product or information they want, no model will work no matter how great it may sound.

Bottom line: Membership/continuity happens to be one of those that seduces people in theory, yet few can make work exceptionally well in practice. Note proof of that in the responses on this thread.

Best regards,
Ken

So the real lie isnt about memebership or continuty, but with sales letters? Continuity programs are excellent for making money. May require more planning and effort, but can be rewarding.

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

So the real lie isnt about memebership or continuty, but with sales letters? Continuity programs are excellent for making money. May require more planning and effort, but can be rewarding.

Hmmm, interesting question you raise.

If I had to fully clarify, I guess what I'm really saying is that the way many sales letters are written has us telling lies to ourselves.

Let's be honest, the design of most sales letters is to get us to suspend our logical reality react with an emotional impulse. After all that's why they work.

So all I'm saying to people is "hey, as great as ongoing membership income sounds make sure you understand it won't be as easy as they said it would be (or, ahem, as you read it would be). It's still going to take serious work."

As far as continuity being potentially an excellent way for making money, I agree 100% and have not said otherwise on this thread.

Best regards,
Ken

[lassitermarketing]

===>The Internet Marketers Association (IMA) - an industry association for networking and education - is coming soon to a city near you.<===

Isn't this a membership site?

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by lassitermarketing

===>The Internet Marketers Association (IMA) - an industry association for networking and education - is coming soon to a city near you.<===

Isn't this a membership site?

Nope. At this point IMA is an offline industry association where people get together with others in their local area.

Might it have an online membership component to it in the future? It's possible but that is not currently the plan.

Best regards,
Ken

[dageniusmarketer]

Im oh so glad I found this thread, as I am currently in the midst of deciding which method to employ....one time or membership.

You guys have really enlightened me with the back and forth discussion. I will take what i have read so far and see how I can apply it to my own business.

[lpstoops]

It has been a great thread for all marketers. It's such a tough debate. Membership/non-membership. Obviously there's quite a bit of money in that, but it's going to require a ton of time to keep things active and healthy. I've been apart of other membership sites that started off strong, but the owner didn't follow through with his promises, and eventually the entire group fell apart. The group was $67/month with 2000 members. It was making the owner a huge amount of money each month. But after three months, he was almost completely inactive towards the members. He was great at traffic and sales, but horrible at follow through. I feel that I have the dedication to keep the group going, but I'm not that great at traffic yet....we'll see.

Good stuff y'all