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Damn, it's getting tough out there...

by Nick Brighton
32 replies
I thought I had a good grip on this marketing game after all these years, but my confidence was recently shaken down a little bit with a recent campaign...

It's a weight loss solution with meal plans and all the practical advice to go with it. It promises a very appealing and realistic result.

The PPC ads, keywords and even the landing page are all modelled around a close competitor who has been running the same setup for months non-stop.

Yet, to my disbelief the campaign has already take a steep decline. I'm paying over the odds for bids, and I'm not getting above 5% opt in rates.

That's unusual for most people, not just me.

I'm a bit lost here. I never thought I'd find myself stuck like this again - feels like I'm back at square one after all this time :-(

Goes to show that it 'aint always as easy as you're led to believe folks... even when you think you've got it sussed.

I only wish I knew how and why this campaign is diving so badly, considering the offer is FREE (compared to my competitor's paid version.)

Times like this sure are lonely in the land of IM.
#damn #tough
  • Profile picture of the author niffybranco
    You need to split test also with some types of crowds free is perceived as worthless and they would rather opt for the paid one as they might feel the free one would not ofer the benefits they need. Before you launch a major campaign you should first split test so you can know where to focus your efforts
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    • Profile picture of the author Amitywill
      Originally Posted by niffybranco View Post

      You need to split test also with some types of crowds free is perceived as worthless and they would rather opt for the paid one as they might feel the free one would not ofer the benefits they need.
      I don't agree with this at all. Where on earth did you hear that?
      Free will always out convert paid.

      Originally Posted by niffybranco View Post

      Before you launch a major campaign you should first split test so you can know where to focus your efforts
      And how are you supposed to split test unless you launch the
      campaign? Launching the campaign will give you the traffic
      you need to start split testing. So again I'm sorry but I don't
      agree with this either.

      And Nick. Here's what I think..

      - Maybe the site you modelled yours on wasn't as good as you thought it
      was. Maybe you were unlucky enough to copy the guy that likes
      to lose money?

      - Maybe there's a technical error on your site. Are the servers working
      100%, is the optin form working correct? Is the page loading properly?

      - Is your optin form short form or long form? And how targeted are the
      keywords? If it's long form and the keywords aren't super targeted
      then 5% isn't that bad.

      I'd suggest either reworking the whole landing page to something that
      you think will convert well instead of copying the competitor.

      Maybe create a short form optin page just to get them into your
      sequence. This should boost the conversions and then split test
      from there.

      If your competitor is selling something and using a long from then
      he needs a long form to sell. However if you're giving yours away
      for free then all your visitor needs to know is what they're getting,
      the benefits and what they need to do to get it, i.e enter their email.

      Then split test from there. And that's all I can think of right now.

      Just my thoughts.

      Will
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  • Profile picture of the author bay37
    I'm sorry to be blunt here, but...

    Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

    The PPC ads, keywords and even the landing page are all modelled around a close competitor who has been running the same setup for months non-stop.
    It's not 2008 anymore. Innovate, not copy. You got it all wrong. Especially in the weight loss niche.

    I only wish I knew how and why this campaign is diving so badly, considering the offer is FREE (compared to my competitor's paid version.)
    If you are going to copy someone - at least do it right. What made you think that those same people would rather sign up for your free product than the paid version that your competitor is offering?

    If you're going to copy - be prepared to spend a ton of money/time split testing EVERYTHING before you start making money.

    Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author tylerdrun
    Weight loss isn't converting that high during this time of the year. His quality score is also a factor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Amitywill
      Originally Posted by tylerdrun View Post

      Weight loss isn't converting that high during this time of the year. His quality score is also a factor.
      That depends where you are. For a lot of people it's summer at
      the moment which means people want to lose weight to go to
      the beach etc.

      Doesn't quality score determine CPC? The op was talking
      about low on site conversions.

      But yeah the competitor could be paying a very low CPC
      which keeps him profitable.

      Will
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Amitywill View Post


        - Maybe the site you modelled yours on wasn't as good as you thought it
        was. Maybe you were unlucky enough to copy the guy that likes
        to lose money?
        That is all I can think it might be. However, he's been running for months, and he's spending $1000+ per day on PPC.

        - Maybe there's a technical error on your site. Are the servers working
        100%, is the optin form working correct? Is the page loading properly?
        yeah, it's running smoothly. I've tested it thoroughly... and I'm getting SOME activity.

        - Is your optin form short form or long form? And how targeted are the
        keywords? If it's long form and the keywords aren't super targeted
        then 5% isn't that bad.
        Name and email only. The keywords are a direct lift off the competitor. They are seemingly targeted and logically match my offer and landing page too.


        I just can't work out how such a drastic difference can occur when modelling so closely to a competitor. As you say, he must be blowing wads of cash month after month if this is the same results he is getting.

        I know there's some dummies out there, but I seriously can't believe he would throw that kind of money away each day/month for nothing.

        Thanks for the advice so far, some "interesting" responses overall.

        Nick
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    Are you sure you are not a victim of click fraud?

    Track how long people stay on your page and the IP's. Perhpas you annoyed your competitor by copying him and he is trying to get even?
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    • Profile picture of the author Seattle Mike
      Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post

      Are you sure you are not a victim of click fraud?

      Track how long people stay on your page and the IP's. Perhpas you annoyed your competitor by copying him and he is trying to get even?

      Excellent point. They don't want to lose those good keywords.

      Should have seen the battle I had in digital cameras before christmas.
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  • Profile picture of the author tylerdrun
    what if he's conning you... let's say you are bidding at $1.05. And the guy has some wierdo software which helps him identify the price you pay. And he starts bidding at $1.04. That means you pay $1.05 for every click you get.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post

      Are you sure you are not a victim of click fraud?

      Track how long people stay on your page and the IP's. Perhpas you annoyed your competitor by copying him and he is trying to get even?
      Good point. Just checked my stats before I came here as it happens...

      - Average time on site 0:58s
      - Bounce rate 75%
      - Not sure about IPs, but they are all coming from different network locations, which would suggest it's not the same person.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

        Have you bought the competitors product to see their entire sales funnel layout? Reverse engineering can work. The thing is you need to make sure you have the whole picture and try and understand "why" something is being done the way it is.

        Also assuming this is a PPC campaign, make sure you to try and see if the guy you're trying to clone is double serving ads in anyway. He might be running multiple campaigns on same keywords/sites bidding against him self using different approaches, etc.

        Hope this helps,
        Daniel D.
        Great points Daniel. I haven't gone that far into his product funnel yet... was planning to. The problem is, that still wouldn't explain the low response (even though it might justify the high CPC)

        As for multiple domains, that's a great point. He has two domains that I can see... but the interesting thing is, he's running the exact same landing page on each domain... across ALL his ads.

        Honestly, I've studied his campaign with spy tools and it actually looks lazy. Like he's slapped all the keywords into his campaign and stuck ONE ad copy on them all.

        Weird.

        But again, he's either incredibly lucky/smart or he's got way more money than sense (like, $1000's per day ball park)
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        • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
          Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

          Great points Daniel. I haven't gone that far into his product funnel yet... was planning to. The problem is, that still wouldn't explain the low response (even though it might justify the high CPC)
          He might have a good funnel and recover the money on the back. The main issue with weight loss is commitment on the long run, so it allows you to create a long term relationship.

          Sandra
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        • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
          This:
          Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

          I've studied his campaign with spy tools and it actually looks lazy. Like he's slapped all the keywords into his campaign and stuck ONE ad copy on them all.
          Makes me think this:
          he's got way more money than sense (like, $1000's per day ball park)
          might be your answer.



          Although, it is entirely possible that he's monetizing his leads in a couple different ways to offset his ad costs, allowing him to bid higher than a competitor would be able to make work. This could be to make up for a crappy converting squeeze page, or just to simply be able to afford the PPC traffic.

          i.e. if he's selling his opt-ins as leads to a non-competing, lateral company as well, he could recover half, or maybe even all of his advertising revenue before they even go into his sales funnel.

          I've seen people use that strategy quite a bit lately.
          1. User opts into a weight loss squeeze.
          2. Vendor sells lead to supplement company on a CPA basis and also retains lead for their own marketing.
          3. Both companies market to the lead.
          4. Vendor offsets advertising with CPA payout (effectively increasing his ad budget) and outbids all competition.
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          • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
            Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM View Post


            Does your ad box promise what is on the landing page? I.e. "Free report of dangers and benefits of **** berry" and then they click through to a form to fill out for the report?

            Congruence is very important with adwords. You can do so great click grabbing headlines but all they do is spend money without delivering conversions if the message on ad box and landing page does not match.
            Yep, it couldn't be more tight of a match. It literally promises the benefit and what they get for free... and then the landing page offers it to them.

            Originally Posted by mr2monster View Post


            Although, it is entirely possible that he's monetizing his leads in a couple different ways to offset his ad costs, allowing him to bid higher than a competitor would be able to make work. This could be to make up for a crappy converting squeeze page, or just to simply be able to afford the PPC traffic.

            i.e. if he's selling his opt-ins as leads to a non-competing, lateral company as well, he could recover half, or maybe even all of his advertising revenue before they even go into his sales funnel.

            I've seen people use that strategy quite a bit lately.
            1. User opts into a weight loss squeeze.
            2. Vendor sells lead to supplement company on a CPA basis and also retains lead for their own marketing.
            3. Both companies market to the lead.
            4. Vendor offsets advertising with CPA payout (effectively increasing his ad budget) and outbids all competition.
            I absolutely agree, however this still doesn't explain why my response rate is so low considering I'm using the same tactic and marketing as he is.

            I know what you're saying, but we're talking about lead gen and front end issues here... not the backend.

            In other words, I don't care how much he's bidding or if he's breaking even as much as I care why I'm not able to get a response from what is almost an identical strategy.

            That's my real beef here.

            Still, great replies and thank you all.

            P.S - You know that feeling when you're two hairs away from screaming and crying in a laugh... or just burying it and holding a stiff upper lip?

            Well, that's where I am right now. Like a kid at his 9th birthday party whos' cake just fell on the floor. Should I kill, or go play outside?

            Only joking, murder is wrong.
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            • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
              Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post


              I know what you're saying, but we're talking about lead gen and front end issues here... not the backend.

              In other words, I don't care how much he's bidding or if he's breaking even as much as I care why I'm not able to get a response from what is almost an identical strategy.
              I think the point the other poster was making is that he could be making a loss on the front end and recovering it on the backend, so you have effectively copied a campaign that by design loses money initially.

              I have been in one niche for coming up 10 years and over the years lots of people have tried to copy me, but they never see the whole process and usually can't sustain the advertising cost to compete.

              Also it could just be your copy has a flaw you can't see right now.

              I would guess that if this guy is spending $30k/month on this campaign then he has some systems in place to get a return.
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            • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
              Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

              P.S - You know that feeling when you're two hairs away from screaming and crying in a laugh... or just burying it and holding a stiff upper lip?
              Well, that's where I am right now. Like a kid at his 9th birthday party whos' cake just fell on the floor. Should I kill, or go play outside?
              .
              Maybe scale your daily spend back a few pegs and slow your campaign down until you can grab it by the curleys, plus it will give you some air time to breath and get your head around it.
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            • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
              Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

              Yep, it couldn't be more tight of a match. It literally promises the benefit and what they get for free... and then the landing page offers it to them.



              I absolutely agree, however this still doesn't explain why my response rate is so low considering I'm using the same tactic and marketing as he is.

              I know what you're saying, but we're talking about lead gen and front end issues here... not the backend.

              In other words, I don't care how much he's bidding or if he's breaking even as much as I care why I'm not able to get a response from what is almost an identical strategy.

              That's my real beef here.

              Still, great replies and thank you all.

              P.S - You know that feeling when you're two hairs away from screaming and crying in a laugh... or just burying it and holding a stiff upper lip?

              Well, that's where I am right now. Like a kid at his 9th birthday party whos' cake just fell on the floor. Should I kill, or go play outside?

              Only joking, murder is wrong.

              What I was saying is that he's probably getting the same crappy response rates as you are, but he keeps running the campaign because he's not actually losing money on it, like you are (because of an instant back end profit).

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    Have you bought the competitors product to see their entire sales funnel layout? Reverse engineering can work. The thing is you need to make sure you have the whole picture and try and understand "why" something is being done the way it is.

    Also assuming this is a PPC campaign, make sure you to try and see if the guy you're trying to clone is double serving ads in anyway. He might be running multiple campaigns on same keywords/sites bidding against him self using different approaches, etc.

    Hope this helps,
    Daniel D.
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    I like to use clicktale and set it to 100% on landing pages that I am dubious about whats going on. It can be a real eye opener.
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  • Profile picture of the author kursat
    Just my quick note on this. I think with the weight loss niche, you have periods of the year when you will get high conversions. Such as christmas and new year (everyone wants to lose weight on new years day and make a decision to do it).

    However, what I actually want to say is may be you need to check your traffic source again. I know PPC is the fastest way to get people to see your product but also it is the most expensive way.

    I know for sure, if you target your buying keywords. You will find a few keywords where you can rank high for in a matter of weeks. It does take work but at the end you don't pay for traffic. To beat a website with few hundred backlinks can be achieved in a matter of days.

    It is nearly a year I have stopped using PPC and now I only get traffic from organic search engine results. And the difference is huge, your conversion rate is much higher.

    Hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    Thing with lead conversion from PPC is that they stay fairly consistent, usually with 2-3% variance. Sales conversions are usually seasonal, but if someone is searching for a keyword and click on the ad box, they usually fill out their email address, otherwise why are they clicking on your ad box?

    Does your ad box promise what is on the landing page? I.e. "Free report of dangers and benefits of **** berry" and then they click through to a form to fill out for the report?

    Congruence is very important with adwords. You can do so great click grabbing headlines but all they do is spend money without delivering conversions if the message on ad box and landing page does not match.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Rather than tell you what to do - because you've been flooded by advice - I'll tell you what to think.

    Nothing has changed but your mindset. When things *appeared* to be going well, you felt great because you judged according to appearances. Then when things *appeared* to be not going so well, you felt bad because you judged according to appearances. Change your perspective of these appearances and you'll feel better about your prospects.

    While filtering some of the advice offered above double up on your personal development efforts. You won't regret it.

    I've experienced these same feelings many times over the past 6 - 12 months and taking the time to step back and work on my mental tools caused me to realize that it was the same person viewing these things. Nothing changed but my perspective. Same actor, different role and I chose to play a different role according to appearances - a No No.

    You will see the opportunity without this obstacle when you step back, quiet your mind and ramp up your personal development efforts. Guaranteed.

    Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
    Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

    The PPC ads, keywords and even the landing page are all modelled around a close competitor who has been running the same setup for months non-stop.
    Nick, you say your campaign is "modelled around" which means it's not the same, so there could be a small tweak that you're missing.

    Have you checked archive.org to look at the guy's landing page from months back? Maybe by comparing past and present and the changes made, something may "click" in your head.

    One thing I have noticed is that a lot of Brits don't do American-style hype very well. It's almost like their heart isn't in it. Did you tone down the sales letter just a wee bit?

    A final thought from outside the box. Have you looked at your competitor's organic traffic? Maybe he's happy to push up PPC prices to put people like you out of business because he's got hundreds/thousands of backlinks to his sites.

    Sorry if none of this is helpful. Obviously you can't share the exact details publicly so we are all shooting in the dark a little.


    Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

      Nick, you say your campaign is "modelled around" which means it's not the same, so there could be a small tweak that you're missing.

      Have you checked archive.org to look at the guy's landing page from months back? Maybe by comparing past and present and the changes made, something may "click" in your head.

      One thing I have noticed is that a lot of Brits don't do American-style hype very well. It's almost like their heart isn't in it. Did you tone down the sales letter just a wee bit?

      A final thought from outside the box. Have you looked at your competitor's organic traffic? Maybe he's happy to push up PPC prices to put people like you out of business because he's got hundreds/thousands of backlinks to his sites.

      Sorry if none of this is helpful. Obviously you can't share the exact details publicly so we are all shooting in the dark a little.


      Martin
      Hey Martin, that's great advice. This is turning into a really cool thread.

      In terms of the copy - it's not one of those hypey letters at all (not mine or his.) I think you all make good points, especially with little to nothing to work from.

      I'm sorry I can't give more detail... as it would compromise the campaign.

      The problem is, I just can't get enough volume... at least without HUGE ad costs.

      I hate to sound like I'm throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but as the years go on, I become less and less encouraged by PPC advertising... on any network.

      It's so mainstream and competitively priced (the wrong way, not the good way.)

      I guess I've learned something here:

      You can't rely on market intelligence for complete accuracy. Sure, the numbers might be right... but it's like a Picasso painting... looks great from a distance, but when you get up close it's a mess.

      There's just too many factors that can't be seen. I know the answer is to test and test and plough ahead regardless, but we all have budgets, and mine is wearing thin with PPC these days.
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    • Profile picture of the author genietoast
      I would recommend making your ads unique to your product.

      Nowadays people are catching on to tricks like "Is so and so a scam?" just to get people to click on the links or some similar copycat method. Even vendors are starting to get specific about how you do PPC.

      Anyways, you want to give attention to your product, not someone else's.

      There's always article marketing, too.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
        Originally Posted by genietoast View Post


        There's always article marketing, too.
        lol. I'll pass on that one dude. Thanks anyway
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    I have tried weight loss before and the results weren't impressive at all.

    I think that the problem is with the niche market.

    Weight loss market has been over exposed with the optins and other "marketing" stuff so much that they don't respond so good anymore.

    Just my opinion, I can be wrong
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Nick, my first thought was that there has to be something you aren't seeing.

      My guess is that people are seeing a near-identical pair of products, one paid and one free. In a marketer's mind, the thought is 'why would they they pay him for what I'm offering for free'. In the consumer's mind, the thought may be 'if that guy is selling the info, why is this one offering it for free - what's the catch?'

      Odds are, people are clicking on more than one ad. It might just be a matter of whose ad they click first.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
    Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

    Yet, to my disbelief the campaign has already take a steep decline. I'm paying over the odds for bids, and I'm not getting above 5% opt in rates..
    Nick I'm trying to focus just on your original complaint. You're saying it was doing better, initially, right? ...how well was it doing BEFORE it took a 'steep decline'? Was anything changed? How long has the campaign been running in total?

    Have you tested a different squeeze page(s)? I agree with you, if you can't even get a decent opt-in rate, then all the back-end monetization stuff doesn't matter.

    Did you ever think of pausing the campaign in G for 30 days and starting it again just to see if results prove different?
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinYoung
    Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

    I thought I had a good grip on this marketing game after all these years, but my confidence was recently shaken down a little bit with a recent campaign...

    It's a weight loss solution with meal plans and all the practical advice to go with it. It promises a very appealing and realistic result.

    The PPC ads, keywords and even the landing page are all modelled around a close competitor who has been running the same setup for months non-stop.

    Yet, to my disbelief the campaign has already take a steep decline. I'm paying over the odds for bids, and I'm not getting above 5% opt in rates.

    That's unusual for most people, not just me.

    I'm a bit lost here. I never thought I'd find myself stuck like this again - feels like I'm back at square one after all this time :-(

    Goes to show that it 'aint always as easy as you're led to believe folks... even when you think you've got it sussed.

    I only wish I knew how and why this campaign is diving so badly, considering the offer is FREE (compared to my competitor's paid version.)

    Times like this sure are lonely in the land of IM.
    Are you on Google Adwords? If so I wouldn't waste my time with them.

    Get over to Facebook ads, with 500,000,000 members to target, there's always someone that's going to be interested in what you've got.

    Cheap clicks and insane ROI. I love it!!
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetSuccess001
    Curious, what is your website, and what is his? (Would like to take a look at both).

    1. Yes, his site could be a loss leader & he is monetizing leads otherwise. (CPA method is interesting, but could also be cross-promoting/selling other items, etc, etc).

    2. Some people actually have huge budgets - and actually do that so the competition literally 'gives' up (and then do a reasonable price). (Microsoft is well known for throwing huge sums of money and giving away stuff for free just to eliminate a competitor, then monetize later. I.e., netscape vs MSIE).

    3. Curious -- how much money have you spent on it? Are you spending $1k/day? Could be they see his ad first, check yours, then decide to go with his simply because they like it better. Could be the software you are using to 'check' up on him is inaccurate (maybe he's not paying as much as you think he is, or maybe he is getting more traffic than you think). Many different reasons.

    Are you at least breaking even? Or what kind of results are you seeing?

    - J
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetSuccess001
    PPS -- re-read a comment. If your site has taken a decline -- you have to remember -- he is not a dumb guy (especially if he is spending 1k/day). Perhaps he figured something that was working for you ('spying' on you the same way you were 'spying' on him) -- and re-tweaked his process.

    Sometimes it is easy to forget that things are continually evolving, and once you have something that makes 1k/day, etc -- does not mean you will be making 1k/day for the next 30 years without doing anything. You need to maintain that, or at least create a system to maintain that income for you.
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