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Why use quotes when doing kw research? People don't search that way

by supergirl
23 replies
Example keyword: health insurance for kids

When someone's searching for health insurance for kids, they don't normally use quotes. They would just type in health insurance for kids.

So why is it necessary to use quotes for keyword research? I understand that when you use quotes you get a better picture of who your competitors are. But if you Google health insurance for kids (without quotes), then "health insurance for kids" (with quotes), more times than not you're getting different search results.

Searching without quotes brings back mainly big insurance companies and authority sites. And this is usually how the average person does a search; without quotes.

What if I have a highly optimized article at ezinearticle.com for this keyword, and it shows up on page 1 of Google when someone types my keyword with quotes? But when they search without quotes, my article is nowhere to be found.

I have searched and searched here at the WF for an explanation on this, but couldn't find any topics covering this specific issue. So I'm asking, can you please explain to me how this works?
#people #quotes #research #search
  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    The only reason to use quotes is to try to get an easy understanding of how many competitors are at least somewhat optimized for the keyword you are targeting...

    BUT...keep this in mind...

    With all the automation out there, many times the number you see will be inflated big time with pages that aren't really competition...I'll fess up here and admit...at times, I'll use automation tools to jack that number up, just to keep people that don't know any better off of keywords

    To get a real guage for what the competition is, you should use the inanchor operators AND check for the number of inbound links coming into the particular pages that are ranking.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      The only reason to use quotes is to try to get an easy understanding of how many competitors are at least somewhat optimized for the keyword you are targeting...

      BUT...keep this in mind...

      With all the automation out there, many times the number you see will be inflated big time with pages that aren't really competition...I'll fess up here and admit...at times, I'll use automation tools to jack that number up, just to keep people that don't know any better off of keywords

      To get a real guage for what the competition is, you should use the inanchor operators AND check for the number of inbound links coming into the particular pages that are ranking.
      I think that's all a waste of time.

      I just check the top 5 results on page one to see if it'd be worth the effort in my marketing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        I think that's all a waste of time.

        I just check the top 5 results on page one to see if it'd be worth the effort in my marketing.
        Good Job

        Why waste your time with all 5 though...why not just look at #1?
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      • Profile picture of the author PaulaC
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        I think that's all a waste of time.

        I just check the top 5 results on page one to see if it'd be worth the effort in my marketing.
        I agree 100% with this.

        Who cares how many you have to compete with. When it comes down to it you only have to beat those in the top few positions on the first page so they are the ones you have to look at.
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      • Profile picture of the author abednego
        Originally Posted by mgtarheels View Post

        I think that's all a waste of time.

        I just check the top 5 results on page one to see if it'd be worth the effort in my marketing.
        Thats pretty adventurous. For most profitable niches, the first 5 sites are authority sites; and outranking them requires massive amounts of time effort and content.

        I just mainly focus on page 1, that should be sufficient traffic...
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    • Profile picture of the author higginb3
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      The only reason to use quotes is to try to get an easy understanding of how many competitors are at least somewhat optimized for the keyword you are targeting...

      BUT...keep this in mind...

      With all the automation out there, many times the number you see will be inflated big time with pages that aren't really competition...I'll fess up here and admit...at times, I'll use automation tools to jack that number up, just to keep people that don't know any better off of keywords

      To get a real guage for what the competition is, you should use the inanchor operators AND check for the number of inbound links coming into the particular pages that are ranking.
      I agree, but I have found on some of my database sites that people do in fact use quotes to search for people/places...etc. Many times, they will type in the person's name in quotes... there are many other search terms where this is the norm... but the quotes are supposed to tell you how many sites are optimized for that keyword as opposed to giving you all the websites that simply contain the two words in the page.... but again, it can be hyper-inflated...

      For example, if you type your name in google.... John Doe, you will get all the pages that contain the 2 words of your name... if you type it in quotes, you will only get pages that have been optimized for your name and contain the two words together... "John Doe". You will only get pages that have the two words together... That is my understanding of it anyway.
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    • Profile picture of the author supergirl
      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

      The only reason to use quotes is to try to get an easy understanding of how many competitors are at least somewhat optimized for the keyword you are targeting...

      BUT...keep this in mind...

      With all the automation out there, many times the number you see will be inflated big time with pages that aren't really competition...I'll fess up here and admit...at times, I'll use automation tools to jack that number up, just to keep people that don't know any better off of keywords

      To get a real guage for what the competition is, you should use the inanchor operators AND check for the number of inbound links coming into the particular pages that are ranking.
      Maybe I'm missing something here. I do understand what you're saying about using quotes to see how many competitors I have for any particular keyword, and using inanchor operators.

      But the problem I'm having (and maybe I'm overanalyzing things here) is this, when using intitle, inanchor, inurl to see who my true competitors are, it does narrow the search results down quite a bit. But how will I be found when someone does a search for my keyword without quotes, if

      But let's just say that I've written an article, well optimized for a particular keyword. But the only way my article is being found (on page 1 of Google) is when someone either searches with quotes or searches using intitle: keyword or inurl: keyword, etc. But when they type in the keyword without quotes, I'm nowhere to be found on page 1.

      I don't know. Maybe it's just me not understanding this whole keyword research thing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rikki_Fawkes
        Whattya mean nobody searches with quotes? Cameron Diaz did when she was looking for travel ideas in "The Holiday." :p
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        • Profile picture of the author supergirl
          Originally Posted by Rikki_Fawkes View Post

          Whattya mean nobody searches with quotes? Cameron Diaz did when she was looking for travel ideas in "The Holiday." :p
          Ha Ha!

          Thanks Rikki_Fawkes
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      • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
        Google and the major search engines work on relevancy . Although people in general do not use double quotation in their searches , if your keyword is exact match and showing in quotations then you should easily be able to build backlinks to the article ( or whatever) and rank for the broad search .

        Jeremy gave a very proper answer for this one but I think we all know he hasn't looked past the first page or the first position to do a competition analysis over three times ... ever :-)

        Originally Posted by supergirl View Post

        Maybe I'm missing something here. I do understand what you're saying about using quotes to see how many competitors I have for any particular keyword, and using inanchor operators.

        But the problem I'm having (and maybe I'm overanalyzing things here) is this, when using intitle, inanchor, inurl to see who my true competitors are, it does narrow the search results down quite a bit. But how will I be found when someone does a search for my keyword without quotes, if

        But let's just say that I've written an article, well optimized for a particular keyword. But the only way my article is being found (on page 1 of Google) is when someone either searches with quotes or searches using intitle: keyword or inurl: keyword, etc. But when they type in the keyword without quotes, I'm nowhere to be found on page 1.

        I don't know. Maybe it's just me not understanding this whole keyword research thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author bestIMtools
    In SEO we check the keywords with quotes to get an idea of real competition, and it has nothing do to with people searching with quotes. Most people don't search with quotes. BUT, doing the search with quotes, for you as a marketer, gives you a better idea of your competition.

    Just today I was checking one of my websites that I almost forgot about, to find out that it was ranking #5 on Google on a very competitive keyword.

    This keyword has almost a million competing sites when you search the keyword without quotes, but it only has over 5,000 competing sites with quotes.

    I got #5 position in about a month. This confirms that searching with quotes tells you the REAL competition. This is because a lot of sites that do show up on the top for a keyword, are not necessarily actively seeking SEO results.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by bestIMtools View Post


      I got #5 position in about a month. This confirms that searching with quotes tells you the REAL competition. This is because a lot of sites that do show up on the top for a keyword, are not necessarily actively seeking SEO results.
      Your real competition is the sites found on page one when searching without quotes. Sometimes it's the same when using quotes....sometimes it isn't.

      Searching in quotes, in theory anyway, is only supposed to return sites that have that actual keyword on the page somewhere. Problem is those aren't the only sites you're competing with, and oftentimes, they're not even the main competitors.
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    • Profile picture of the author supergirl
      Originally Posted by bestIMtools View Post

      In SEO we check the keywords with quotes to get an idea of real competition, and it has nothing do to with people searching with quotes. Most people don't search with quotes. BUT, doing the search with quotes, for you as a marketer, gives you a better idea of your competition.

      Just today I was checking one of my websites that I almost forgot about, to find out that it was ranking #5 on Google on a very competitive keyword.

      This keyword has almost a million competing sites when you search the keyword without quotes, but it only has over 5,000 competing sites with quotes.

      I got #5 position in about a month. This confirms that searching with quotes tells you the REAL competition. This is because a lot of sites that do show up on the top for a keyword, are not necessarily actively seeking SEO results.
      Explanation understood. Thanks a bunch!
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  • Profile picture of the author coco28
    my understanding is that you would search in quotes to find (for purpose of research) websites optimised for the phrase, rather than to mimic the search of someone looking for something that you are trying to optimise for. If that makes sense...
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  • Profile picture of the author mlord10
    I just look at the page 1 results, and see if I can get on that page. Examine the backlinks a website has, as well as the domain age and PR.

    If the majority of websites have only a few hundred backlinks, are fairly new domains, and have low PR (3 or less) then I think I can rank for that keyword phrase. I use SeoQuake from Firefox to do this research, and it has really helped me decipher if I can get my website or article ranked for a particular keyword phrase.

    Also look for web 2.0 properties, articles from article directories, and inner pages of websites ranked on the first page of Google. If this is the case, then chances are you can get on the first page for your chosen keyword.
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    • Profile picture of the author supergirl
      Originally Posted by mlord10 View Post

      I just look at the page 1 results, and see if I can get on that page. Examine the backlinks a website has, as well as the domain age and PR.

      If the majority of websites have only a few hundred backlinks, are fairly new domains, and have low PR (3 or less) then I think I can rank for that keyword phrase. I use SeoQuake from Firefox to do this research, and it has really helped me decipher if I can get my website or article ranked for a particular keyword phrase.

      Also look for web 2.0 properties, articles from article directories, and inner pages of websites ranked on the first page of Google. If this is the case, then chances are you can get on the first page for your chosen keyword.
      mlord10,

      This is pretty much what I do too. I just started using SeoQuake and find it to be a big help. I also look for web 2.0 properties on page 1 of Google for my particular keyword.

      I just got so hung up on the with quotes and without quotes thing until I started confusing myself.

      Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author higginb3
    I have started to just look at the domain age and pagerank as well....
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      What happens if a marketer that knows the ropes just bought the domain and Google has not assigned rank.

      I have several pages sitting on G1 rank one that have no page rank.

      A three day old site can easily beat a three year old site if the owner sits on their butts in complacency .


      Originally Posted by higginb3 View Post

      I have started to just look at the domain age and pagerank as well....
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  • Profile picture of the author SVLABS
    Now for the "REAL" reason behind using quotes and other operators in keyword research.

    You're right. Most people do a broad search. And again you are correct that the results change significantly. You've asked the question, if they don't use quotes, how does my site get found.

    "Contextual Relevancy"

    You do a broad match search query. The first match that the algorithm will attempt is an exact match, it will then move onto a phrase match and finally, it will find any pages that are a broad match.

    From there, it will determine which of all those pages, no matter the query type, which has the highest algorithmic PR (contextual relevance) to the given search query.

    When you do a broad search you'll notice that your keywords are bolded. This is to give you a better indication of how that match was made, broad, phrase, or exact.

    So what does this all really mean?

    If you want to be listed, to hold onto number 1 and be found on a broad search, make sure that you are ranking for the exact match (not the phrase not the broad). If you can make it in the exact match SERP in #1, then you should also be able to hold onto it for the broad search.

    This is NOT a hard and fast rule, because there are many factors that could see a broad matched page, toppled your #1 simply because it is a PR9 domain, with 1M reputable inbound links. Well it's pretty obvious in that instance that your 3 page review site just isn't going to compete.

    Kind of like, if I'm making a movie and I need a 20 year old female religious freak to play the lead role. Sure I can find an actual 20 year nut bag, but Tom Cruise will always get the first pick because he has the authority. He isn't 20, he isn't female. So its a broad match. But he is a religious nut with authority and reputation so that is probably the best match.
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    • Profile picture of the author supergirl
      Originally Posted by SVLABS View Post

      Now for the "REAL" reason behind using quotes and other operators in keyword research.

      You're right. Most people do a broad search. And again you are correct that the results change significantly. You've asked the question, if they don't use quotes, how does my site get found.

      "Contextual Relevancy"

      You do a broad match search query. The first match that the algorithm will attempt is an exact match, it will then move onto a phrase match and finally, it will find any pages that are a broad match.

      From there, it will determine which of all those pages, no matter the query type, which has the highest algorithmic PR (contextual relevance) to the given search query.

      When you do a broad search you'll notice that your keywords are bolded. This is to give you a better indication of how that match was made, broad, phrase, or exact.

      So what does this all really mean?

      If you want to be listed, to hold onto number 1 and be found on a broad search, make sure that you are ranking for the exact match (not the phrase not the broad). If you can make it in the exact match SERP in #1, then you should also be able to hold onto it for the broad search.

      This is NOT a hard and fast rule, because there are many factors that could see a broad matched page, toppled your #1 simply because it is a PR9 domain, with 1M reputable inbound links. Well it's pretty obvious in that instance that your 3 page review site just isn't going to compete.

      Kind of like, if I'm making a movie and I need a 20 year old female religious freak to play the lead role. Sure I can find an actual 20 year nut bag, but Tom Cruise will always get the first pick because he has the authority. He isn't 20, he isn't female. So its a broad match. But he is a religious nut with authority and reputation so that is probably the best match.
      SVLABS,

      Thanks for breaking it down the way you did. Helps me to understand it even better. Much appreciation.
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  • Profile picture of the author DR's Fynest
    I'm another one of those that believe in just looking at the competition in the first page results. After all, that's where we want to eventually end up.

    Page PR (not site PR), number of backlinks and type of website (article directory? web 2.0, shopping comparison sites, etc) is what I look at.
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  • Profile picture of the author beneth
    People don't always search that way, but they do handle linkbuilding that way. By search for the "phrase match" version of your keyword you're going to get a much better idea of who is optimizing for that exact phrase, which will give you a better picture of how much competition you'll be running into.
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