Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?

[ShaneRQR]

I can't help but notice a lot of threads and posts along the lines of:

"The Gurus SCREWED me!!"

"I can't believe how bad product X was!"

"Why is everyone trying to sell crap to me?"


I'm sure you know what I mean.

To be honest, while I can completely understand this kind of frustration, I find it a bit puzzling to see how many people seem to get themselves into these situations where they get frustrated and feel like they've been cheated and misled.

I think it's true that there are MANY internet marketing products that are downright awful or don't nearly live up to their claims, to say the least. And yes, if you buy into the hype and then get the product, that can be frustrating.

But first of all, I don't think this has anything to do with internet marketing or "Gurus".

90% of everything is crap. That's just how it is.


The great thing is that it's very, very easy to avoid this kind of frustration and find the 10% of stuff that isn't crap. Here's the solution to your problems:


Don't buy from people who haven't previously given you good reason to trust them.


First of all, you need to be aware that at any given time, there are always going to be a dozen "LIMITED TIME ONLY! ULTIMATE SYSTEM MAKES YOU MONEY IN YOUR SLEEP! GET IT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!" type of programs on offer. Every single one will make it seem like this is the one you need to get and that it's the last chance etc.

Well, since there's constantly fresh products like this popping up, you really don't need to worry about the scarcity factor. There's always going to be another one.

Secondly, getting back to the statement above: Don't buy from someone who hasn't earned your trust.

Almost every marketer gives away free products, right? Well, check out those products. They're an indicator of the quality this marketer produces.

Every marketer has a list, right? Isn't that great? You can just look at what kind of e-mails you get and you'll quickly know whether you want to buy from that person or not.

• Constantly promoting the newest, hottest thing as an affilite? -> No thanks.
• Never sending anything that isn't a promotion? -> No thanks.
• Offers actual value from time to time and cares about his/her subscribers? -> Excellent!

In a nutshell, I recommend that you give people a higher priority than products and sales-pitches.
"Who am I buying from?" is, to me, the more important question than "What am I buying?"

As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.

With both of these guys, when they release a product that's in line with my current plans, I pretty much buy without even taking a closer look at the offer.
Why? They have both produced good stuff consistently, they never sell out, they write newsletters worth reading (actual content, and stuff) and they both offer free stuff that is stellar in quality (Eben is the king of the free line and Jason... get on one of his webinars as soon as you can. It'll be up to 30% hardcore sales-pitch, but the 70% before that are consistantly awesome.).

In both cases, you could check them out thoroughly by looking at the content they give away for free and by being on their newsletter for a while.

And on the flipside, there are certain marketers who I wouldn't buy from in a million years, simply because I've seen how little they care and what kind of crap they promote to their lists.


Ok, this turned out longer than I planned. Sorry for rambling. Here's the key, money-and-frustration-saving point again:

Don't buy from people who haven't previously given you good reason to trust them.

Cheers,
Shane

[higginb3]

Very well said... selling the shovel.... that seems to be what it is all about these days.

[gj2802]

Well said Shane

Haven't bought anything from Eben Pagan but I agree with you about Jason.. he delivers good content and also does a good webinar...with enthusiasm...and he's for real.!!

What I'm finding some of the best stuff is right here in front of our very noses, I have made some fantastic purchaese and far better than these so called CB Guru launches..

- G

[Colin Theriot]

Originally Posted by higginb3

Very well said... selling the shovel.... that seems to be what it is all about these days.

Let's be fair. If you dig holes for a living, you need a good shovel. Nothing wrong with being an honest shovel-seller when the market actually needs shovels.

The problem is there's a guy selling mops, telling you it's a shovel, and promising you it'll dig a hole by itself while you sip on a mint julep in your hammock.

Back to Shane's earlier point - that's a really good strategy, and it's one that's served me well. And the fact is, the ONLY time you need to buy something is when it happens to aid your current plan.

I'll tell you a secret - if ever there's something that's on sale for a limited time, and you DON'T actually need it to solve a problem at hand, DON'T give in to the temptation of false time-sensitivity.

I promise that if whatever you want is "closed" when you finally need it, just email and ask. I can guarantee you with 99% certainty that if the media exists and is connected to a shopping cart, they WILL sell it to you if you want it.

And one final additional rule of thumb that I use to gauge my own purchases:

Does the sales material actually tell me what the product is and does? If it's all about secrets and insiders and blah blah blah, most likely, it ain't really a secret. The secret is if they put it in the letter, they'd get called out.

Or alternately, the method inside is so simplistic that if they even explained it, you would get it and be able to do it for free - which only proves the info had no value in the first place.

If the secret nature of a thing is the primary value, it's probably not that valuable - or at least won't be for long, because when you sell a secret, it kind of has the tendency to STOP being a secret.

If the product can't be honest about what it is and what it does BESIDES the money it will allegedly make you, it's very, very likely a dubious proposition.

Good post, Shane.

[webfighter]

Originally Posted by ShaneRQR

Offers actual value from time to time and cares about his/her subscribers? -> Excellent!

This is really a wonderful tip that I've been following
for a few months now. I was virtually on lists of every
big marketer out there. Though, I don't buy high ticket
items, I'm on close look at what those guys offer and
how things work.

I once emailed all of them with a simple email and saw
which of them bothered to get back. Apparently and
funnily enough, the ones that didn't would constantly
mention things like "how are you doing?" etc. in their
post script and so on.

On another note, you have some really valuable points
in your thread but the statement "Don't buy from people
who haven't previously given you good reason to trust
them." doesn't really adds up to me without the context.
Evidently, I have had some good experiences with
purchases from lesser known marketers (those without
even a list) and WSOs from new warriors.

It all brings down to common sense. Truth is, you can't
complaint much if you were not mislead by the sales
letter/video. But if you were, you are
entitled for a refund. If you're not granted a refund, it
shows for some shady practices on the author's part
a.k.a. scamming. Plus, someone who doesn't care for
his/her customer isn't going to be in the business for
long anyways.

Plus, one needs to hold their temptation for buying every
other hyped stuff. In my case, I had no money when I started
out (been living on my parents) and that seem to have
helped me when I hear all thesehorror stories.

[CianMcCarthy]

The best products actually spill their ''secrets'' in their pre-sell...think of Google Sniper

[Gavin Stephenson]

Originally Posted by CianMcCarthy

The best products actually spill their ''secrets'' in their pre-sell...think of Google Sniper

That's the key to conversions, If someone reads or watches crappy content they automatically think the product is going to rubbish also and vise versa.

[Colin Theriot]

I've always found if you give away your best stuff for free, people will fold the value of the free stuff into the value of whatever they eventually buy.

And you can explode your business around your competition, because they can't figure out how you can give away your best stuff and still profit.

In IM, for whatever reason, the "free giveaway" has been reduced down to just some chintzy garbage PLR knick-knack. No wonder so many people can't "make it" if that's all they try.

But if you actually give away AMAZING stuff, and ask for nothing in return except continued attention, that attention WILL convert into sales when you ask for them.

"There is sublime thieving in all giving. Someone gives us all he has and we are his."
-- Eric Hoffer

[ShaneRQR]

Thanks for the many replies!

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

Nothing wrong with being an honest shovel-seller when the market actually needs shovels.

The problem is there's a guy selling mops, telling you it's a shovel, and promising you it'll dig a hole by itself while you sip on a mint julep in your hammock.

What a perfect analogy!

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

Does the sales material actually tell me what the product is and does? If it's all about secrets and insiders and blah blah blah, most likely, it ain't really a secret. The secret is if they put it in the letter, they'd get called out.

This is a very good point. I've also found that the more vague the sales material is about the actual method, the less valuable, useful and novel that method usually turns out to be.

[Kay King]

There's a critical element buyers of the products should understand. What trigger words work for you?

If you look at the titles of make money products, almost all attempt to use triggers. Easy, fast money, next week money, money tomorrow, retired, millionaire, fast, dominate, ninja,.....

For some people, what the sales page says doesn't matter because they're already hooked on the idea of "fast easy money with little or not time/work" of the title.

All the sales copy must do is not mess up that pretty dream. For some of these products, no matter how people post "this is crap" there will be someone saying "think I'll give it a try".

I like the mop/shovel analogy - but for some you could tell them it's a mop that will wash away the dirt without lifting a heavy shovel...and they'll buy that theory.

kay

[jijaybajay]

and notice that review sites? most of them are scams

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by Kay King

What trigger words work for you?


kay

Colin had me at "mint julep". I had my credit card out, frothing at the mouth with anticipation.

[CDarklock]

A pint of creme de menthe for my poofy friend!

[Crew Chief]

Originally Posted by Kay King

There's a critical element buyers of the products should understand. What trigger words work for you?

If you look at the titles of make money products, almost all attempt to use triggers. Easy, fast money, next week money, money tomorrow, retired, millionaire, fast, dominate, ninja,.....

For some people, what the sales page says doesn't matter because they're already hooked on the idea of "fast easy money with little or not time/work" of the title.

All the sales copy must do is not mess up that pretty dream. For some of these products, no matter how people post "this is crap" there will be someone saying "think I'll give it a try".

I like the mop/shovel analogy - but for some you could tell them it's a mop that will wash away the dirt without lifting a heavy shovel...and they'll buy that theory.

kay

Kay, you said a mouthful!

What's amazing is these very same individuals will raise hail, start flaming fueled threads and go on an all out blitzburghs against the vendor after their magic get rich quick pill fails to generate them $47,829.13 within two weeks, starting from scratch with absolutely no IM experience.

In the grand scheme of things, the psychology of selling ice to an Eskimo is always going to trump common sense. Countless noobies verify the veracity of the statement everyday as they gleefully purchase the next Internet Marketing traffic magic pill product.

The bottom line; they want and demand magic pills and somebody is going to sell them what they want!

Giles, the Crew Chief

[Caleb D Miller]

Thanks Shane! Those are great reminders.

I find myself trusting the untrustables time and time again, and I just need to stop. I don't have the energy to follow all these new "methods" anyways. It's taking me off track and off focus.

[jasonl70]

While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

just something to think about...

[ninjawarrior]

Awesome post, Shane! Thanks for sharing!

Is there a "favorites thread" thingie anywhere here? I really need to get back to this thread from time to time...

[Rob Howard]

This is a big injection of common sense.

If you build the expectation with your list that you are going to sell the stuff, and you stay consistent with it, then guess what...most won't care.

I don't give away much for free. I do from time to time, but I do it as a way to say thank you. Like customer appreciation.

But I always tie in some sort of promotion.

Most of the time, I just tell my list about a new product or service. Most don't care. And many are thankful that I told them.

Just because i don't pour on free stuff left, right, and upside, doesn't mean squat. All of my products are valuable and helpful and I'm quite proud of them.

Rob

Originally Posted by jasonl70

While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

just something to think about...

[Kay King]

I find myself trusting the untrustables time and time again, and I just need to stop. I don't have the energy to follow all these new "methods" anyways. It's taking me off track and off focus.

You've recognized the problem - now work on the solution. Break down the sales headline and the copy and ask yourself "what can I really expect?". Look for the triggers - analyze the copy to see what it is that is appealing to you.

Then leave the sales page for at least 24 hours - when you come back you probably won't be interested UNLESS you read that entire sales copy once again.

It's the same advice given by suicide prevention hotlines - don't do anything for 24 hours. Good advice that will save you time and money...and frustration.

Thomas - you're just too easy

kay

[The Shy Guru]

If you use words, phrases, and sales letter tactics designed to make people impulsively buy, then you get impulsive people buying.

Impulsive buyers tend to be more remorseful buyers (Buyer's Remorse) and therefore want their money back.

Impulsive people try to hide their mistakes (poor judgment in spending money they can't afford to spend) made by blaming others ("the product doesn't work").

The make money niche also has a high number of Serial Hobbyists.

These are people that jump from one opportunity to another. After letting others here know that they (the serial hobbyists) have purchased many products, they too want to hide their personal problem and start to play the blame game ("the product didn't work for me")

Another group that buy make money products are people who are broke. Some of them purchase without talking to their spouses and then when the sh*t hits the fan, they have to take it out on someone ("the guru suckered me into buying the product").

Finally, we marketers here have these discussions about ethics, product quality, gurus, what doesn't work...and these subjects are always accessible to the other groups above which gives more power to the defense mechanisms used above.

The rest of us are reading a lot more of this as part of our continuing efforts to make our business better, our products, and have better relationships with our customers.

A certain part of our brain is always thinking about these things. The point being that if you watched CNN for so many hours a day, you would begin to think the World was coming to an end. It isn't. It just seems that way.

We don't have more crooks and con artist in our industry than any of the others. It just seems that way when we deal with it every day.

So the bottom line is, don't let all of the negativity scare you into thinking that you have to "give away the farm" in order to be an ethical, decent marketer with a good product.

[ivanadee]

Yup...Agree with Kay...
I have to admit the sales letter is strong enough to make us clicking the "buy now" button even if we have committed to focus (^_^). The solution comes from ur own willingness...be strong ^^

[Colin Theriot]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY..."

He has since said that he doesn't do that anymore, and that essentially he did that because people said it worked and it did work, but he'd never tried anything else.

However, if you're on his lists now, he doesn't still do that, he doesn't teach it in any of the recent material I have, and actually advises the opposite.

He also seems to sell more copies of even more expensive stuff than he ever did before, so I'm inclined to follow his current lead vs. what he said for Underachiever which was, what 04-05?

Not saying it STILL won't work - just saying he doesn't really endorse it or do it himself as far as I can tell.

[jlucado]

Super post Shane.

Those who complain about gurus taking advantage of them are those who are always looking for a better, fast way to arrive. Most are a little naive.

There are people who will sell anyone anything and 90% of it is crap. The other 10% can really help you.

Your advice is most meaningful. That is, learn about who you are buying from. Just get on their list and evaluate the quality of their emails. Find those who provide value and someone you trust.

[ShaneRQR]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

While I agree with a lot of this, I think there is a dangerous assumption in it: that not providing your list with loads of great free content means you are not a successfull marketer.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I've tested this in a few niches and I always made more sales when I said "screw it", and just loaded up the autoresponder with promotions.

Anyone with access to his ultra underachiever newsletters can verify this - even the mighty Frank Kern hammered his niche lists (non-IM). "I pummel them CONSTANTLY...".

just something to think about...

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

This is a big injection of common sense.

If you build the expectation with your list that you are going to sell the stuff, and you stay consistent with it, then guess what...most won't care.

I don't give away much for free. I do from time to time, but I do it as a way to say thank you. Like customer appreciation.

But I always tie in some sort of promotion.

Most of the time, I just tell my list about a new product or service. Most don't care. And many are thankful that I told them.

Just because i don't pour on free stuff left, right, and upside, doesn't mean squat. All of my products are valuable and helpful and I'm quite proud of them.

Rob

I absolutely agree with that.
In fact, I think most of the "give out tons of free stuff" advice is misleading. The idea is not to appease your list by giving them lots of free stuff so that "in return" they will also buy from you, occasionally. And neither is it to apologize for your marketing by giving out free stuff. Everytime I see something like "send X newsletters with free, valuable content, then one with a promotion" I think that that just can't be the right approach.

Sure, giving out free stuff is great, but it's not the only way to provide value.

A product launch is a good example of providing value (or perhaps the better word would be "proof"), during a marketing process. In my mind, the point of the launch series is to provide the prospects with something to go by that is more substantial than a sales-letter full of big promises and trigger words.

Another factor for me is whether I'm involved in the market/niche or not. For some of my lists, I could certainly generate more profit by hammering out more promotions, but that's not my primary goal.
I can get far more out of a list than just a bunch of commissions.

Originally Posted by webfighter

On another note, you have some really valuable points
in your thread but the statement "Don't buy from people
who haven't previously given you good reason to trust
them." doesn't really adds up to me without the context.
Evidently, I have had some good experiences with
purchases from lesser known marketers (those without
even a list) and WSOs from new warriors.

Well, with WSOs there's often very little risk involved anyway. It's not like it's a big loss if that $7 WSO doesn't deliver, is it? But even here, you can check out some posts the WSO seller made and see what kind of stuff they talk about and if that makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Matt M

We don't have more crooks and con artist in our industry than any of the others. It just seems that way when we deal with it every day.

So the bottom line is, don't let all of the negativity convince you that in order to be an ethical, decent marketer with a good product, scare you into thinking that you have to "give away the farm" in order to feel good about making a sale.

Well said.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

He has since said that he doesn't do that anymore, and that essentially he did that because people said it worked and it did work, but he'd never tried anything else.

However, if you're on his lists now, he doesn't still do that, he doesn't teach it in any of the recent material I have, and actually advises the opposite.

He also seems to sell more copies of even more expensive stuff than he ever did before, so I'm inclined to follow his current lead vs. what he said for Underachiever which was, what 04-05?

Not saying it STILL won't work - just saying he doesn't really endorse it or do it himself as far as I can tell.

true - but he's positioned himself much differently in the IM field. This was an 06 newsletter (within a year of mass control), and he'd already done his huge annihilation method launch and was a super star IM'er.

On one of the Mass Control videos, for a split second you can see an aweber account. If you pause it, you can see it is a bunch of dog related lists. And the unsub rates are like 60% (a fairly good sign of hammering them).

All this stood out to me because:
a) it was incongruent with what a lot of warriors say/think
b) it was incongruent with his IM persona
c) it supported results from my own split tests.

He may not use this approach with his IM list, but my point was simply that heavy promotion to a list is in no way a sign that the marketer is not highly successful, or that they can't publish a legit product on marketing.

[ninjawarrior]

Giving freebies isn't the only way to transmit that "caring" feeling to your customers, I believe. Eben Pagan was able to do so because his entire line of products all sold very well in the seduction niche, so it is easily conceivable that he simply had more resources at his disposal to produce more freebies that he could simply give away. We might also learn a thing or two if we consider that Eben Pagan was most probably practicing what he preached--he SEDUCED his buyers. Shane is clearly hooked, maybe in just some of DeAngelo's products, but clearly in his methods. I guess it's kind of like courting a woman for some period to secure and cement a firm relationship, thereby generating successive "sales".

I contend that you don't have to be rich to produce quality products and make your customers feel that TLC, as much as you simply can't court a woman with lavish gifts and luxuries ESPECIALLY if you simply don't have the dough for it (in fact, Eben Pagan advises against this). But perhaps one key note about what Eben Pagan teaches is to do that which is COUNTER-INTUITIVE. In seduction, that would mean doing precisely the opposite of what is commonly thought of as normal behavior men would have towards attractive women, such as deliberately not complimenting a very beautiful woman's looks. So if applied to IM, being counter-intuitive could simply mean to give out more than you would take, if you can pull it off, that is.

Just definitely worth looking into, in my opinion.

[Crew Chief]

I believe a crucial distinction needs to be made in reference to Gurus versus Confidence artists.

A genuine Guru is someone who is a recognized and trusted leader mentor and adviser.

This type of IM DOES NOT put out crap products.

Conversely, a Confidence artist, or con man for short, is a person who exploits the confidence of his victims. They put out crap products and software like there is no tomorrow with absolutely no compunction.

Moreover, they could care less if their victims receive any value because they don’t create products to provide value - they produce/copy/plagiarize products for the purposes of feeding their greed.

So when you ask, “Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?” What you’re really asking is, “Frustrated by all the Confidence Artists and their Crappy Products?”

And when these Con men put out crap products, the IM community really needs to raise awareness by swiftly putting these worthless products on blast.

Giles, the Crew Chief

[Colin Theriot]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

Conversely, a Confidence artist, or con man for short, is a person who exploits the confidence of his victims. They put out crap products and software like there is no tomorrow with absolutely no compunction.

How come the best white hat, halo-wearing, legal, ethical marketer in the world will still called a "marketer" just like every scumbag...

But you break the law and you get to be "Confidence Artist"? I liked when they called 'em Bunko Men. Sounds way dirtier. Had to be a "marketer" turned rogue who came up with the name "Con Artist" right?

[Rob Howard]

Good discussion guys, I must say I've enjoyed reading this thread, more so than others of late.

Seems everything on the WF is getting negative and it's good to see some common sense in the thread.

Just wanted to say that - carry on.



Rob

[Rob Howard]

I find that interesting.

I knew he pounded those lists...but I believe there is a very good reason for it.

He kept 40% of his list...which if you figure the pounding he gave, it probably means that those 40% are buyers...who will buy again and again, most likely.

The remaining are people who got weeded out.

Now, could he sold the others with a more "gentle" approach? Probably...but that may have took more time, more baiting, more building up, etc.

I think his philosophy was to just "get the sale as fast as possible".

Shrank his list? For sure...made money? Yup.

Rob

Originally Posted by jasonl70

true - but he's positioned himself much differently in the IM field. This was an 06 newsletter (within a year of mass control), and he'd already done his huge annihilation method launch and was a super star IM'er.

On one of the Mass Control videos, for a split second you can see an aweber account. If you pause it, you can see it is a bunch of dog related lists. And the unsub rates are like 60% (a fairly good sign of hammering them).

All this stood out to me because:
a) it was incongruent with what a lot of warriors say/think
b) it was incongruent with his IM persona
c) it supported results from my own split tests.

He may not use this approach with his IM list, but my point was simply that heavy promotion to a list is in no way a sign that the marketer is not highly successful, or that they can't publish a legit product on marketing.

[ConnorMcCreesh]

With the battle between selling and freebies it is hard to choose the right balance. Really too much freebies can be counter productive, i am not sure how many PLR or rushed ebooks i have sitting around in my documents. But on the other hand if you spend all your time creating perfection reports and giving them away for free it may be counterproductive time wise even if you manage to secure more sales of a later product ( then if you sold the ebooks cheaply ).

Just something to provoke thought

[Louise M.]

I made the decision to unsubcribe from many gurus' lists a while ago and it was a great decision. I'm focusing much more now. Most of them are just selling their own products or other gurus' products.

Stop being a prospect, start being a marketer!

[coky]

As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.
Hmmmm, Would like to meet them

[ShaneRQR]

Originally Posted by Crew Chief

I believe a crucial distinction needs to be made in reference to Gurus versus Confidence artists.

...

So when you ask, “Frustrated by all the Gurus and their Crappy Products?” What you’re really asking is, “Frustrated by all the Confidence Artists and their Crappy Products?”

That's a very good point. "Guru" sure is an overused and perhaps mis-used term in IM. I actually try to avoid the term most of the time as it seems that almost everyone using it is complaining, nowadays...

But you're right: We should make the distinction between actual mentors and marketers and con men.

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

I find that interesting.

I knew he pounded those lists...but I believe there is a very good reason for it.

He kept 40% of his list...which if you figure the pounding he gave, it probably means that those 40% are buyers...who will buy again and again, most likely.

The remaining are people who got weeded out.

Now, could he sold the others with a more "gentle" approach? Probably...but that may have took more time, more baiting, more building up, etc.

I think his philosophy was to just "get the sale as fast as possible".

Shrank his list? For sure...made money? Yup.

Rob

This is something I've been thinking about a lot, lately. Everyone talks about the size of lists. But actually, the size of the list hardly matters. A few weeks ago, I was playing around with a cheap trafficsource and built a list of 1200 in the fitness niche in about three days. Hardly cost me anything and I'd be well into five figures by now if I hadn't stopped the traffic. Only problem? That list doesn't convert worth a damn.

In effect, having a large list like that is just costing me extra for the aweber subscription.

If profit is the only goal, you should actually take steps to chase off freebie seekers and keep your lists as slim as possible, with only buyers on them.

I don't want to take a brutal approach in markets that I'm involved in, but I do want to take some steps to "rack the shotgun" as Perry Marshal puts it. (Explanation: Walk into a gambling den and rack a shotgun - those who notice and look towards you are the guys you don't want to play/bet against. It's a way of pre-qualifying a crowd).

Originally Posted by ConnorMcCreesh

With the battle between selling and freebies it is hard to choose the right balance.
...

That's certainly ture. I'd even say that the typical, low-value PLR is probably counter-productive and you'd be better off not giving most of that stuff away...

Originally Posted by Louise M.

Stop being a prospect, start being a marketer!

Another great point. That's also something I try to teach whenever I'm coaching someone.

Originally Posted by coky

As a concrete example: Two of my favourite marketers are Eben Pagan and Jason Fladlien.
Hmmmm, Would like to meet them

That might be difficult. But Eben Pagan has a lot of free video material you can find on YouTube (also search for "David DeAngelo", his pen name) and Jason Fladlien has a bunch of free, short reports and you can get on his list for webinar invites etc.

[D Baker]

I couldn't agree with you more.

There really is no reason to blame or be frustrated with anyone else but yourself. I am pretty sure that after a very short period of time in the internet marketing make money online world you get the idea that everything is simply super hyped, and in 90% of the case with no real reason other than to get people to buy something.

Every time I land on a sales page and go over the details, I still get that feeling of "Damn, this sounds like the best product ever and I really got to check this one out before it will be to late"... I really don't know, but it still happens to me even though I know it will probably won't give me anything of value. So, I made a deal with myself never to rush and buy a product. After reading and getting that feeling, I simply leave the computer for a few hours so all that hype will go away and I will be able to make a calculated decision.

This deal I made with myself has saved me tons of money, but more importantly in my opinion, has saved me lots of time.

Great post Shane and I really couldn't agree with you more.

[ashmaxdownunder]

If I see the word guru in any kind of ad, I run the other way

[TimG]

Sometimes the perception that garbage is being sold is based on the buyer's experience level.

There are numerous times when I see a product that is a huge seller for a marketer get a bad review in the review section of this forum based on the fact that it reveals nothing new but that's probably because the person providing the review was not the intended target for that product. it was more then likely geared towards people new to IM.

There are some marketers that do release top of the line products which always reveal something new and I think those folks are working towards trying to change the perception that every new product release is refurbished or rehashed garbage.

Respectfully,
Tim

[marlon]

Hey,

Marlon here.

Man, I got started in direct response marketing in 1978.

Let's see.

I had:

1. Tested Advertising Methods. Great book but dated.
2. How To Write A Good Advertisement
3. Robert Collier Letter Book
4. First Hundred Million
5. Jerry Buchanan's Writer's Utopia Formula Report
6. Halbert newsletters when he got out of jail
7. A few Dan Kennedy books
8. Ben Suarez book

That was ABOUT it for quality info.

Do you have ANY idea how LUCKY and fortunate you are to have people
with great ideas and experience to teach you?

It took m 15 years of hard labor to learn to write copy...I wrote freelance
in the day time, sold timeshare and anything else I could at night to pay
bills.

You can learn today in 1-3 months what took me YEARS to learn.

Do you realize that in 1978:

1. Jay Abraham hadn't come along so NO ONE knew what a USP was?

2. Endorsement mailings were a concept not taught anywhere. Jay is the one who made those popular also...what is just COMMONLY accepted today even by newbs.

3. Heck, no one had even taught back end marketing, other than I guess Ted Nicholas teaching the "ice cream cone" in 10 minutes at his speeches.

You have an amazingly rich and wonderful variety of teachers to learn from today.

Yes, the hype is out of control. But I find a lot of very high quality info in most guru products.

It's very seldom I buy a highly promoted "guru" product and thin wow this sucks. I'm not saying there haven't been a few.

But good grief.

Do you have ANY concept of how great it is to have the variety of learning options you have today than LITERALLY have 6 or 7 books and almost no courses to learn from?

I man, that's what I had to learn direct response marketing.

It sucked. Really, really freaking sucked.

I remember the FIRST time I heard Jay teach USP in teh $5000 protege program I bought from his first 32 page ad in Entrepreneur magazine.

My mind EXPLODED because I realized why the heck I had the living daylights whipped out of me when I was in people's homes trying to sell "retiremement" programs at 9, 10, 11, 12 pm at night, desperate to make a sell.

I didn't know what a USP was.

I had NEVER hard of a joint venture, endorsed mailing or anything. When Jay taught that stuff it was like a whole vast new world opened up.

Today no one realizes without Jay teaching that stuff where we might ALL would be!

Lifetime value of a customer.
USP
Joint ventures
Endorsemed mailings
front end/back end

ALL those concepts were virtually NON existent as an idea being taught by anyone anywhere prior to Jay Abraham coming along teaching them in 1989 or whenever it was.

I practically owe my entire life in marketing to buying the original Protege program.

Nowadays, of course, that stuff is just considered common knowledge.

Even the impact that Corey Rudl's original course had on ME personally. I would have NEVER had the associate program for Amazing Formula without his course.

And his course is what DROVE the invention of autoresponders. Because when he taught how he made all those extra sales by sending an email automatically 4 days after the initial sale, no one had EVER heard of such a thing.

EVERYONE wanted to be able to do that. And thus autoresponder sequences were born. Without Corey teaching that, I don't know if autoresponders would even exist.

I could go on and on and on. Heck, before Gary Halbert promoted the Atom Bomb seminar with Michael Enlow, NO ONE was even turned onto Internet marketing -- AT ALL. At that point, it was still aol, compuserve, prodigy and bbb's!

Anyway, I wanted to say something about guru bashing because in my own personal opinion it's BITING the hand that feeds you.

Best wishes,

Marlon Sanders

PS: I agree about Jason Fladlien's products. He's a friend. And he rocks.
One of the great, bright, new fresh up-and-coming minds in Internet marketing.

[Rob Howard]

Thanks Marlon, we are incredibly blessed by the shear amount of information and experience inside the marketing community.

It has allowed a lot of fresh upstarts to go from the usual hyped up headline of "rags to riches" pretty fast...

Rob

[Chris Worner]

If you have a problem with somebody or their actions, my mother shared with me the following gem of wisdom:

build a bridge and get over it.

It has served me well since then, and will serve you as well.

Chris

[mikemcmillan]

Marlon, like yourself, I'm pretty old school too. Some of the books you mentioned bring back good memories. Jerry Buchanan's WUFR was one of the first books I ever got--way before Internet days. It was pretty small but inspiring. I still look at it from time to time. As I recall he had an article in there he wrote titled. The Master Salesman, which was excellent. I miss the guy. He was inspiring and a great teacher. --Mike

[ShaneRQR]

Originally Posted by TimG

Sometimes the perception that garbage is being sold is based on the buyer's experience level.

There are numerous times when I see a product that is a huge seller for a marketer get a bad review in the review section of this forum based on the fact that it reveals nothing new but that's probably because the person providing the review was not the intended target for that product. it was more then likely geared towards people new to IM.

There are some marketers that do release top of the line products which always reveal something new and I think those folks are working towards trying to change the perception that every new product release is refurbished or rehashed garbage.

Respectfully,
Tim

That's a good point. I think I've mentioned this before in a thread somewhere: In many cases, there's nothing new under the sun, but the way information is delivered is where a lot of the value lies. There are good teachers and bad teachers and sometimes the simplest concept taught by a good teacher is worth more than the most complex and brilliant concept taught by a bad teacher.

Originally Posted by marlon

Hey,

Marlon here.

Man, I got started in direct response marketing in 1978.

Let's see.


[snip] lots of great, wise stuff [/snip]


Best wishes,

Marlon Sanders

PS: I agree about Jason Fladlien's products. He's a friend. And he rocks.
One of the great, bright, new fresh up-and-coming minds in Internet marketing.

Wow, thanks for that, Marlon.
I honestly hadn't ever thought about it like that, but you're absolutely right: We can really count our blessigs when even a dunce like me can build a website in a few minutes flat and knows about USPs, JVs, upsells, cross-promotions etc.

[ChrisGuthrie]

I might recommend that you just do a thorough search for their name on Google. Most of the info marketers don't even have blogs which to me is the first of many red flags.

I think the best way to build trust is through a blog that gives out quality free information constantly and if you're buying a product from someone that doesn't even maintain a blog then I'd spend more time determining if the person is actually legit (where is the social proof?)

That's why I run a blog at least. If I recommend some product on my blog and there are 2,000 daily RSS readers then people are more inclined to believe what I have to say than some long form sales letter they stumbled upon.

2 cents

[kikolani]

Originally Posted by jijaybajay

and notice that review sites? most of them are scams

If you Google a product and find about 20+ reviews that all sound the same, the sites were probably paid and given a "template" review post that they might have re-engineered a bit. Look for reviews that are different from the average on respected sites. Preferably reviews that have a lot of responses / comments.

[samuraiwriting]

Originally Posted by ChrisGuthrie

I might recommend that you just do a thorough search for their name on Google. Most of the info marketers don't even have blogs which to me is the first of many red flags.

I think the best way to build trust is through a blog that gives out quality free information constantly and if you're buying a product from someone that doesn't even maintain a blog then I'd spend more time determining if the person is actually legit (where is the social proof?)

That's why I run a blog at least. If I recommend some product on my blog and there are 2,000 daily RSS readers then people are more inclined to believe what I have to say than some long form sales letter they stumbled upon.

2 cents

@ Chris -- this is definitely true! They get the concept of branding and creating a network of people to continue the conversation. Building trust is definitely what it is all about.

That is so true. It seems that no one is able to create an in depth system. I guess I need some hand-holding, but all the stuff I've learned has been pieced together from snippets of information from many gurus and Warrior Forum conversations. I think I finally have a workable plan to get my blog going.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Colin Theriot

Had to be a "marketer" turned rogue who came up with the name "Con Artist" right?

I think Andrew Dice Clay nailed this one to the wall, although he was referring to a different group...

"I call 'em c*cksuckers. I think that spells it out."

[ckatheman]

The way I see it, and with my experience, this holds true, there are really only a few stumbling blocks to internet marketing:

1. Not knowing where to start (or lack of technical expertise or internet 'savvy'). I only ran this above #2 because some base point of knowledge is required.

2. Failure to take action. I have found that most of the 'guru' techniques have merit - even the regurgitated stuff that ends up in 95% of the PLR/MRR crap out there. If you take any 'system' and take some action on it, you'll likely see some results, and pass or fail, at least you will know where you stand on a given method.

3. Giving up after the first go-round doesn't succeed.

4. Failing to scale up even mildly successful techniques you find.

Really the whole thing is basic - find stuff that people want to buy and sell it to them. There are thousands of different ways to skin that cat, and you can find most of them just by subscribing to the war room.

However on the guru products point:

What is irritating, is that it's dead obvious is the only income some of these guys make is on selling the 'system' - and in many cases, it's clear they never used the system they are selling! Use common sense and don't pay a lot.

[Find]

Guru products are frustrating and crappy - Decode the rubbish and youll find the true gurus'

[createyouwealth]

What you just stated is very true Shane. If the individual gives away his/her best stuff then that tells you that they offer some solid content in their product. Freebies are definitely a way to build trust with people, but of course it needs to be some very good content. All the best.

[ShaneRQR]

I just had a quick look at all the "flaming" going on in the CB Wealth System thread in the Review section. Since I don't want to add to the non-review nature of that thread and the subject fits this one, I'll just post here.


All I have is a simple question:

If someone comes out with an honest, down-to-earth marketing product, doesn't make unrealistc promises about how much money you can make, doesn't hype it up beyond all reason etc., will anyone buy it?


Won't you find yourself looking at the sales-page where you learn that the system you're about to buy takes a couple of months of hard work and then you'll get good results, thinking: "Hmm... with that other product, I could be making hundreds of dollars a day within a few days... should I really even bother with this one?"


Will you ever buy/have you ever bought a non-hyped product?