Soooo Frustrated With Web Guys & Graphic Designers!!!

by SeanyG
31 replies
Hey guys,

So I had an awesome web guy for years but he took off for some travel.

I spent some time tracking down a new web guy to do my web development and design. He is awesome at making tweaks to Wordpress but he can't design at all.

I now realize that "web design" and "graphic design" mean two very different things!

That being said, the idea of working with both a graphic guy and a development guy seems flawed. There are some parts of the projects that I work on where both guys will need to be in communication. Its a lot easier to have 1 guy do it all.

On top of this, the graphic guys I have found that seem to do great work are SUPER unreliable. Sometimes they are on top of emails. Other times they disappear for weeks.

All I want is a graphic guy that does high quality work, is good at taking directions and a great reliable communicator.

Does this exist?!!?!?!

Help!

~Sean
#designers #frustrated #graphic #guys #web
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Can't be done. Totally unrealistic. Never will happen... or I could be wrong. There must be someone that can follow through, do good work, and will communicate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Louise M.
      Did you check Odesk.com? I know someone who outsource a lot of stuff and the guys he found do a great job and he can check every step of their work. Just an idea. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I have a free wordpress theme and awesome plugins and everyone ask me who worked on my website lol
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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by Louise M. View Post

        Did you check Odesk.com? I know someone who outsource a lot of stuff and the guys he found do a great job and he can check every step of their work. Just an idea. Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I have a free wordpress theme and awesome plugins and everyone ask me who worked on my website lol
        The problem with that Louise (lorra Louise's here ) is that the OP
        is pretty much fed up with trying to tie in multiple contractors.

        I suspect what he really needs is to be working with a good project
        manager from a professional web development firm .

        As somebody who runs such a firm with multi million dollar clients
        I'll tell you our service levels run so much higher than the average
        Odesk contractor it's not funny, you're talking about entirely
        different animals.

        I pay my guys nearly twice the numbers Michael talked about in some
        of his descriptions, top end creative guys , native UK/American,
        professionals who treat this as a job, not a sideline don't work for
        $15 lousy an hour.

        It wouldn't even pay the studio fees.
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        • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
          This does sound like what I am looking for Simon. Send me a PM!

          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          The problem with that Louise (lorra Louise's here ) is that the OP
          is pretty much fed up with trying to tie in multiple contractors.

          I suspect what he really needs is to be working with a good project
          manager from a professional web development firm .

          As somebody who runs such a firm with multi million dollar clients
          I'll tell you our service levels run so much higher than the average
          Odesk contractor it's not funny, you're talking about entirely
          different animals.

          I pay my guys nearly twice the numbers Michael talked about in some
          of his descriptions, top end creative guys , native UK/American,
          professionals who treat this as a job, not a sideline don't work for
          $15 lousy an hour.

          It wouldn't even pay the studio fees.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    Yes it exists.

    It doesn't for $15 an hour though.

    Total professionalism, high end work, constant contact,
    project management etc all come at a price most people
    simply don't want to suck up.

    When you run via an experienced PM, it doesn't matter
    whether it's "web development" , "graphic design", "coding"
    "SEO" or anything else.

    It should be seamless, painless and all appear to be done
    by the same guy, even if often it isn't behind the scenes.

    To make that happen in conjunction with daily updates,
    constant availability via phone or SKYPE , you have to pay
    top dollar.
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    • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      Yes it exists.

      It doesn't for $15 an hour though.

      Total professionalism, high end work, constant contact,
      project management etc all come at a price most people
      simply don't want to suck up.

      When you run via an experienced PM, it doesn't matter
      whether it's "web development" , "graphic design", "coding"
      "SEO" or anything else.

      It should be seamless, painless and all appear to be done
      by the same guy, even if often it isn't behind the scenes.

      To make that happen in conjunction with daily updates,
      constant availability via phone or SKYPE , you have to pay
      top dollar.
      This ^^.

      More then ever good guys know what's their value.

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    • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      Yes it exists.

      It doesn't for $15 an hour though.

      Total professionalism, high end work, constant contact,
      project management etc all come at a price most people
      simply don't want to suck up.

      When you run via an experienced PM, it doesn't matter
      whether it's "web development" , "graphic design", "coding"
      "SEO" or anything else.

      It should be seamless, painless and all appear to be done
      by the same guy, even if often it isn't behind the scenes.

      To make that happen in conjunction with daily updates,
      constant availability via phone or SKYPE , you have to pay
      top dollar.
      Its good to know that this exists. I'm willing to pay a hell of a lot more than $15! I know that quality comes with payment.

      I didn't realize that most designers are either on the graphics side or on the development side...
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Originally Posted by SeanyG View Post

    All I want is a graphic guy that does high quality work, is good at taking directions and a great reliable communicator.

    Does this exist?!!?!?!
    Yes. This type of "graphics guy" is technically referred to as a "woman."

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    (just kidding)

    Yes, it is possible. If you had a good graphics person before, and you found this person quickly, you probably just got lucky. A lot of people (right here on this forum) who do outsourcing have plenty of horror stories. They had to slog through a lot of freelancers before finding a good fit.

    That sounds about like the place you're at right now. You're going to have to spend some time on this process, both doing your due diligence and just in general wading through the crowd to find the good freelancers.

    You may also have to put down more money than you're used to paying. Good freelancers who do quality work that's on time are in-demand -- and they tend to have higher rates. While it's not always true, sometimes you do get what you pay for. Pay pennies and you may get unreliability (perhaps because the freelancer has taken on a ton of work to make ends meet). Pay more and you may someone who's more professional and reliable.

    Have you tried the Warrior for Hire section? Check out the graphics folks who have long, good histories on this forum... that's a good place to start.

    Good luck in your search! Be patient... you'll find what you're looking for (eventually).

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Web design and graphic design are completely different competencies. Yes, there's overlap. Yes, there are similar issues. But they are most certainly different.

    A web DEVELOPER is even different than that - an actual programmer that understands things like logic, database connection strings, and application servers.

    Extremely different.

    Decent graphic designers are like $15-20/hour resource if they're really decent. They're also extremely creative types that march to the beat of a completely different drum. Their world is Photoshop and Illustrator.

    Web designers are somewhere between graphic designers and developers. US based are $30-50 an hour for a decent one. Their focus is UI (user interface), which is layout, navigation, content management. They have to think in terms of formatting code (HTML) which is not "programming" because there's not a lot of actual logic. It's just markup.

    Web developers are straight up programmers. Pure logic that applies conditional states to object elements in the interface that interact with business layer code. Really good ones in the US are $50-80 an hour to hire direct.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hanz
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


      Decent graphic designers are like $15-20/hour resource if they're really decent. They're also extremely creative types that march to the beat of a completely different drum. Their world is Photoshop and Illustrator.
      Yep. Although the money in this area can range anywhere from $11 - $30/hour...or more I've noticed.
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    • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
      Thanks for the breakdown of the different types of people and different costs for each type of "designer". MUCH appreciated!

      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Web design and graphic design are completely different competencies. Yes, there's overlap. Yes, there are similar issues. But they are most certainly different.

      A web DEVELOPER is even different than that - an actual programmer that understands things like logic, database connection strings, and application servers.

      Extremely different.

      Decent graphic designers are like $15-20/hour resource if they're really decent. They're also extremely creative types that march to the beat of a completely different drum. Their world is Photoshop and Illustrator.

      Web designers are somewhere between graphic designers and developers. US based are $30-50 an hour for a decent one. Their focus is UI (user interface), which is layout, navigation, content management. They have to think in terms of formatting code (HTML) which is not "programming" because there's not a lot of actual logic. It's just markup.

      Web developers are straight up programmers. Pure logic that applies conditional states to object elements in the interface that interact with business layer code. Really good ones in the US are $50-80 an hour to hire direct.
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  • Profile picture of the author Louise Green
    We exist but we put a premium on our time
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    • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
      Originally Posted by Louise Evans View Post

      We exist but we put a premium on our time
      So subtle Louise :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author kiopa
    Banned
    Originally Posted by SeanyG View Post

    That being said, the idea of working with both a graphic guy and a development guy seems flawed. There are some parts of the projects that I work on where both guys will need to be in communication. Its a lot easier to have 1 guy do it all.
    This is your flaw right here. Sounds as though you're looking for quality, and not an $8/hour guy. You need both, a designer and a developer, as they're two totally different fields of work and expertise. Expecting one to do both is the same as asking an engineer to also be the architect. The jobs are somewhat related, but in reality, especially for large projects, are totally different beasts.

    That's why general development principles always separate actual source code (PHP, Perl, Java, etc.) from the design work (HTML, CSS, etc.). That's what basically all template engines out there do, and there's a reason for that.

    There's generally one person (or group) working on the source code, while another person (or group) is working on the design side of things. Sure, they communicate with each other and help each other out where needed, but they have their own sets of files, and don't need to mess with each other's stuff.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hanz
    Originally Posted by SeanyG View Post

    Hey guys,

    So I had an awesome web guy for years but he took off for some travel.

    I spent some time tracking down a new web guy to do my web development and design. He is awesome at making tweaks to Wordpress but he can't design at all.

    I now realize that "web design" and "graphic design" mean two very different things!

    That being said, the idea of working with both a graphic guy and a development guy seems flawed. There are some parts of the projects that I work on where both guys will need to be in communication. Its a lot easier to have 1 guy do it all.

    On top of this, the graphic guys I have found that seem to do great work are SUPER unreliable. Sometimes they are on top of emails. Other times they disappear for weeks.

    All I want is a graphic guy that does high quality work, is good at taking directions and a great reliable communicator.

    Does this exist?!!?!?!

    Help!

    ~Sean
    Your original web guy who took off for some travel, did he basically quit? Or is he vacationing? You probably should find a way to get him back if that even means offering him more money. Just a thought.
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    • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
      He's gone on an 8 month trip around the world.

      Need to find someone (better)!

      Originally Posted by Hanz View Post

      Your original web guy who took off for some travel, did he basically quit? Or is he vacationing? You probably should find a way to get him back if that even means offering him more money. Just a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author TristanPerry
    As others have said, it could be the budget you are offering. Considering there are some very, very successful web design and/or graphics design companies around, I'm sure it's not true that they don't exist

    Also another pointer - web development is different to web design. So sometimes you'll need three different people depending on the size of the job (a graphics designer, a web designer, and sometimes a web developer)

    As for your statement:

    "Its a lot easier to have 1 guy do it all."

    I agree, but in some ways that's like saying that you'd like an artist/painter to also make the frames and canvases Or like saying an architect should also construct the building they planned.

    So yeah, in short, it depends what you pay. If you're trying to get web designs for $50, banners for $5 and development work for $5 per hour, you'll come across loads of inconsistent people.

    However I know some brilliant web designers who charge $1k a go and they've been around for many years The same applies to banner and development work too. (Heck, I know of web design firms who charge $10k per job)

    Apologies if you truly are paying good money, although I find it difficult to believe that developers and designers would suddenly take off if they are earning good money I've certainly never seen a good quality developer/designer who's earning good money disappear one day.
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    • Profile picture of the author kiopa
      Banned
      Originally Posted by TristanPerry View Post

      I find it difficult to believe that developers and designers would suddenly take off if they are earning good money I've certainly never seen a good quality developer/designer who's earning good money disappear one day.
      Ohhh, trust me, we can disappear at times too. I remember billing out at $150/hour, minimum 1 hour. Some jobs only took me 3 mins, but people were still more than happy to dish out their $150.

      But I remember being so busy, stressed out, full of responsibility & work that I hard an extremely hard time delegating, to the point where I would disappear, and wish I was landscaping for $8/hour again. After training three development companies on my software (and their bill for my time ), spanning Canada (Calgary to Toronto), I finally found one who had competent developers who I was comfortable handing the work over to.

      I remember people sending me e-mails, begging and saying things like, "Come on man, I'll send you $500 if you just answer your phone for me once!", and I didn't care in the slightest at the time. $500??? What do I care? (at the time)

      Don't worry, us good guys can get burnt out at times too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
      Originally Posted by TristanPerry View Post

      Also another pointer - web development is different to web design. So sometimes you'll need three different people depending on the size of the job (a graphics designer, a web designer, and sometimes a web developer)
      And a copywriter. Nothing sells without good copy.

      :-Don
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  • Profile picture of the author RichKent
    As Louise E. says above, yes we do exist, however as everyone else is saying you have to pay if you want quality and service. The $30-$50/hr quoted above is exactly what I charge - however all of my clients are happy to pay it because I can handle a broad range of projects and get them done in a timely fashion and they can get me on the phone or via email during regular business hours.

    That being said - It's difficult to find an expert in both graphic design and web design. I'm good at both, but probably couldn't make a living at doing just one or the other. Fortunately AM is perfect for jack-of-all-trade types.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    People need to understand webdesigners/developers/graphic designers are a different breed:

    a) They do some random work for $15 per hour, 10 hours.

    Profit: $150

    b) They buy a $8 keyworded domain name, they spend 10 hours designing/developing the site, they buy 4 articles at $5 a piece, they buy a 100 manual directory submission for $10 and they do their own in house basic SEO.

    Total investment: $38.

    A couple weeks/months later they sell that site for what? $350? $550? $1K? Probably that site is making $10-$20 per day in Adsense or CB products.

    Following me?

    Many of the best webdesigners/developers/graphic designers DO KNOW whats a domain name, whats SEO, how to rank a site, how to write unique content, etc etc.

    Just food for thought...

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    • Profile picture of the author rts2271
      I find alot of my best developers from the building trades. The principles to building a house are almost the exact same as developing a web site.
      Now graphic designers, even the expensive ones can be a bitch to deal with. The better the artist the more eratic they can be at times. We pay out around 1$ per 10 pixels and charge twice that. We've never missed a deadline cause our designers want paid.
      Web designers are more grounded and I generally have less headaches with them. I have 2 now on my team and they are monsters.

      The biggest issue I deal with is most people do not know there is a difference between web developer, web designer, programmer and graphic designer. A person competent in all 4 has yet to be found on planet Earth. Programmers can't do graphics, web designers cant program and developers need mace and a taser in their drawer to keep them all in line.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

        ...... A person competent in all 4 has yet to be found on planet Earth. ..
        Well... tonight isn't your night for picking lottery numbers, so don't run down and buy a ticket unless you go for the computer generated one.

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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post

        there is a difference between web developer, web designer, programmer and graphic designer. A person competent in all 4 has yet to be found on planet Earth.
        Actually you can, after many awful experiences occasionally find
        somebody who is "competent" in all 4.

        You can't however find somebody who is extra ordinarily skilled
        in all 4, because by the very definition of the type of mind these
        guys have, somebody deeply naturally skilled as an graphic artist
        has little interest in debugging PHP.

        We have studies now clearly showing those of a truly artistic
        nature use different areas of the brain more so than those
        for example of who are prone to mathematical genius.

        It's not so much it couldn't be done, it more a case of how people
        with different skills think , people will tend to focus on what
        they find they have a natural aptitude for.

        Which is why professional web development firms house a team of
        the best of the best in each and assign a project manager to
        each client.

        The client simply gives the PM a wish list of what they want
        to happen and a good PM translates that to his team and
        make it all happen behind the scenes.

        The reality is that most people can't afford that kind of service
        level and often have never even experienced it.

        When you can afford it, all your outsourcing issues evaporate.

        The mark of a good web development firm is that the client
        should never have a clue or need to have a clue as to
        who's doing what, or how you're going to tie the programmer
        into the graphic artist for that opt in that parses their
        data into your miva merchant account or whatever the
        solution is.

        All you need to do as a client is simply say I want "xyz" to
        happen and make it look cool as hell please.

        All your project manager should say is " I'll make it so sir".

        That's it.

        That's the difference between running around like a headless
        chicken on outsourcing sites with varying degrees of hassle
        and inconsistency.

        Once a long term relationship has been built up and you understand
        your clients business model, customer demographic, ethos
        and more, you're then able to add another angle to the service,
        that of being proactive and even finding areas you can benefit
        the firm with.

        I've had clients for more than 4 years, and I've never done
        ANYTHING for under $45 an hour and even that's cheap frankly,
        often fees run into the hundreds per hour depending on exactly
        what kind of work is being done, time frames and so on.

        Low prices can often be misleading and a false economy as well,
        the difference is what a guy at the top of his game in a specific
        area can get done in an hour versus what some of the $15 ph
        guys charge.
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        • Profile picture of the author kiopa
          Banned
          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          When you can afford it, all your outsourcing issues evaporate.
          Ohhh, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I know someone in Vancouver who dropped $30,000 on "software developer", and basically just got an Excel spreadsheet and a bunch of MS Word templates.

          Back when we were searching for a quality development company to partner with, and delegate our contract work to... a high-end 40+ employee company outside of Toronto flew me over, paid me over $10,000 for all fees, etc... the developers I was assigned to train were unbelievably incompetent. The "director" I worked with wasn't very intelligent either. This was a Perl based software that's installed on LINUX boxes, and he gave me a guy who only new .NET. The guy didn't even know what SSH was. The director thought it was a good idea to get a "broad range" of expertise involved. Obviously, they never seen a single contract from us.

          My main client right now, dropped $1000 on a design, and was content with it, but not happy. So he contracted out to a high-end design firm in downtown Vancouver, and dropped $5000. The result was horrible. After about another three designers, he found an excellent one who did the redesign for about $800.

          Just because you spend lots of money, definitely doesn't guarantee you quality.
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          • Profile picture of the author TristanPerry
            Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

            Just because you spend lots of money, definitely doesn't guarantee you quality.
            Indeed. I've paid $1k for a small-ish development job and been ripped off. I know $1k isn't major, but it's not like it equated to $10 per hour either..

            It's like anything; you've still got to do your homework. The people (IMO) who charge race-to-zero prices for their 'work' will be more unreliable than the ones who charge 'proper' rates, but that doesn't mean that the latter will definitely offer good service.
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          • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
            Originally Posted by kiopa View Post

            Ohhh, I wouldn't necessarily say that. I know someone in Vancouver who dropped $30,000 on "software developer", and basically just got an Excel spreadsheet and a bunch of MS Word templates.
            .
            I wouldn't say that either, but then I didn't say that.

            I stated a very specific type of service and professionalism removes
            outsourcing headaches when combined with paying realistic fees.

            An entirely different scenario to the issue you isolated above.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          You can't however find somebody who is extra ordinarily skilled
          in all 4, because by the very definition of the type of mind these
          guys have, somebody deeply naturally skilled as an graphic artist
          has little interest in debugging PHP.
          You're absolutely right. As a person that is skilled in all 4, I can tell you I dislike the coding side of things.

          I personally gave up freelance work. I eventually realized that 1 hour spent on my own projects is worth far more than 1 hour of one-off work spent on someone else. My projects bring in substantially more value over the course of many years with less effort.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
        Originally Posted by rts2271 View Post


        The biggest issue I deal with is most people do not know there is a difference between web developer, web designer, programmer and graphic designer. A person competent in all 4 has yet to be found on planet Earth. Programmers can't do graphics, web designers cant program and developers need mace and a taser in their drawer to keep them all in line.
        Well... I have been doing those... plus writing, technical writing, research, reverse-engineering, upwrites, webmaster services and a couple of other things for about 6 years...

        I'm not the best at anything... but can get ANY project to completion.

        My only drawback is that English is not my home language, so I use an editor to fix my messes and take care of copywriting.

        Sandra
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  • Profile picture of the author FleeceHEAD
    Another thing you folks are not considering is the great divide in the world of graphic design. IMO There are 2 types of graphic designers out there, at least here in New York. Ones that actually went to college, have a full computer art background, fine art background, art history, etc. And then those that went to "computer trade school" for a lack of better words, took a 10 week course, and left being "graphic designers".

    The latter are the ones you will get for 15$ an hour. A real graphic designer won't be sitting on fiverr selling banners and twitter templates and crap like that. Will you find a broke kid with good skills on occasion for dirt cheap that you can exploit? Sure maybe if that's what you're looking for. But if you really want to be successful in your business you buck up and pay for the real thing and get someone who understands things like pantone colors, preparing items for print, etc.

    And no, I'm not a graphic designer, but I am married to one. She would laugh at someone offering her $15/hour for a freelance job. You can make that at McDonalds once you move up to fries and washing lettuce.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan UK
    My biggest problem working as a freelancer is the client that sends you an email at 9pm (I am based in the UK) saying "I need a homepage design for one of my clients today please".

    For one, I only charge them $10 an hour for changing stuff on websites and doing the odd design, but to just drop that on me like that is not going to help me.

    Most people want stuff done for them as cheaply and quickly as possible nowadays and it annoys me badly. We have to eat as well you know...
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