Am I sitting on a gold mine?

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ryan UK

Hi Warriors,

Only in the last couple of days, I remembered I had an old Youtube account I created way back in February 2007. I uploaded a music video of a popular band and it now has 650,000 views. After doing a bit of research on it, I've found out it averages 9000 views a week and nearly 2000 a day since the past month (so I think it's getting more popular).

With this traffic, would it be stupid not to put a link to a music product I may create in the future or to an affiliate product? I think there is a lot of potential here.

What do you Warriors think?

That's a good number of daily traffic. I would say you should monetize it as soon as possible.

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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Do you own the rights to this music video? Was is legally loaded up to youtube?

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Matt Morgan 14 years ago

You can perhaps put a link to your description, so that traffic gets redirected to some page, or some music related webpages of yours. You would have to test though to see if it converts.
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Ryan UK

14 years ago

Originally Posted by avenuegirl

Do you own the rights to this music video? Was is legally loaded up to youtube?

It was an amateur filming in High Quality when I watched the band live years ago.

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Jill Carpenter 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ryan UK

It was an amateur filming in High Quality when I watched the band live years ago.

I have friends who are in bands, and some of them are doing quite well now. But I would never attempt to monetize on their stuff without permission first.

Even though you shot it, you are using their songs and content - which now trails into potential copyright issues.
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- Dan C. Rinnert 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by avenuegirl
  
  Even though you shot it, you are using their songs and content - which now trails into potential copyright issues.
  
  I am not a lawyer but, IMO, the moment he begins monetizing it, it makes it even more ripe for an infringement lawsuit.
  
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timpears

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ryan UK

It was an amateur filming in High Quality when I watched the band live years ago.

So it is a pirate video then. You are treading on thin ice here. Probably nothing would ever happen, but if the band saw it, they might want to take some legal action.

I am not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice, because it isn't.

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allthesp

14 years ago

If anyone were granting legal advice, I am pretty sure they would be in more legal trouble than the OP.

Is anyone else really interested in what amateur band is generating 2000 hits a day?

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Dan C. Rinnert 14 years ago

Originally Posted by allthesp

If anyone were granting legal advice, I am pretty sure they would be in more legal trouble than the OP.

No one is pretending to be a lawyer or purporting to offer legal advice. Several of us specifically stated that we are not lawyers.

The OP asked for our opinions. And we gave them. And several of us believe that what he was asking about could land him in legal trouble. Thus, we stated our opinions of that.
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A Bary

14 years ago

Originally Posted by allthesp

If anyone were granting legal advice, I am pretty sure they would be in more legal trouble than the OP.

Is anyone else really interested in what amateur band is generating 2000 hits a day?

You shouldn't be a lawyer or offering a link in your signature to a law class to know that uploading videos with material that is owned by others and trying to make money from it is illegal...I didn't see any warrior here trying to pretend to be a legal expert.

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WilliamL

14 years ago

This looks good. Wouldn't recommend you to create your own music product, but better promote as an affiliate.
My proposal: Promote the Sonic Producer (Clickbank, GR. around 100) and says something like "Make Your Own Music And Get Popular with this Software"...

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vipbuddy

14 years ago

Yeh it a nice result and try to utilize it ..

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Darni

14 years ago

I agree with kursat, you should monitize it as soon as possible.

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J Bold

14 years ago

You could get the video deleted, but since it hasn't happend yet, quite unlikely. Of course it is not suggested to upload a band's video without their permission.

However, if you really want to monetize it, you should find a good clickbank product or get on a cpa network and put up a link to a ringtone offer, those kind of offers work perfectly with this kind of traffic and the payout is often around $10 for a ringtone offer. Try it out, if you will.

As for a gold mine? Well, it could bring in some steady cash but I wouldn't say it's a goldmine, it really just depends. In reality, youtube viewers don't bring a lot of clicks per view, so it really takes a ton to get any money, but it's free traffic, so try it out.

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TristanPerry

14 years ago

Legally you should remove the video.

But if it was me, I'd stick a link to a high converting audio-related product in the Youtube description..

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Jill Carpenter 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TristanPerry

Legally you should remove the video.

But if it was me, I'd stick a link to a high converting audio-related product in the Youtube description..

LOL, I respect your honesty.

As Dan stated, none of us are lawyers (although there are a couple on this forum) but the OP would do well to talk to a lawyer before going forward with any scheme if he wants to keep things in the clear.

What he decides to do is his own business. But if he gets in any kind of trouble, he can't say some of us didn't try to warn him.

If you start drawing more attention to the video it could lead you into some trouble. Don't think the worst thing to happen could be that youtube just shuts it down. It can get much uglier than that depending on the bands popularity.
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jayauthor

14 years ago

Ryan:

Rather than immediately monetizing this, you may like to put an URL in your description where you can provide more information about your new music website. This website can be an autoblog dedicated for the type of music you had posted on the youtube. You can even put adsense on your autoblog so that you can start monetizing.

The traffic on your video is phenomenal!

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J Bold

14 years ago

I see layman giving their opions here, not legal advice. I have no clue about the true legality but of course it sounds like it's not a good idea to a layman.

I too, would not touch marketing this video myself, but that doesn't stop me from telling you a good way to do it. However, a lot of bands like fans posting stuff like this online. Not necessarily profiting from it, however.

Ringtones work great though and if you can think of a creative, legal way to market ringtones on youtube besides this, go for it.

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Bossman34

14 years ago

If you're going to keep the video and monetize it, I would make the most of it by promoting some kind of CPA offer that it going to interest a lot of people (ie. zip or address submit for free ipad/ipod, kindle, gift cards).

You'll get a much better response with something like that because they don't have to spend anything for you to get paid. People like "free" stuff!

I'm not saying not to promote your music product, but I don't see it converting very well. Just because people are interested in a band or music video does not mean that they are interested in a music product.

You'll have much better success with some type of CPA offer that appeals to the masses.

Just my $0.02!

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

There's nothing wrong with what you're doing. If there was, YT would've already gotten rid of your video, especially for how old it is and the big fiasco over copyrighted material a bit ago. What you're doing is completely within guidelines of fair use. However, you are in the UK, so things may be a bit different across the pond.

As for monetizing, I'd give it a shot. Worst case scenario is that you receive a C&D or YT deletes the video.

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Dan C. Rinnert

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Worst case scenario is that you receive a C&D or YT deletes the video.

That is not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is getting sued.

Here is information straight from YouTube:
"Posting copyright-infringing content can lead to the termination of your account, and possibly monetary damages if a copyright owner decides to take legal action (this is serious--you can get sued!)." (Emphasis added.)

Source: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

That is not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is getting sued.

Here is information straight from YouTube:
"Posting copyright-infringing content can lead to the termination of your account, and possibly monetary damages if a copyright owner decides to take legal action (this is serious--you can get sued!)." (Emphasis added.)

Source: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Again, that is not copyright infringement. This falls under fair use.

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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Again, that is not copyright infringement. This falls under fair use.

No, it probably doesn't.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

No, it probably doesn't.

Yes, it absolutely does. For one, it was a public performance being videotaped by the OP. Two, he wouldn't directly be making money via the band.

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DubDubDubDot 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Yes, it absolutely does. For one, it was a public performance being videotaped by the OP.

A public performance is not protected under copyright law? I challenge you to back this claim up by posting just one link to a legitimate legal site that states this.

If what you are saying is true, then why don't we see unofficial concert DVDs in stores? Certainly if it were legal, companies would record the shows and sell the footage without needing a license. Now do you see the problem with your argument?

Fair use is rarely fair use. It's just a term that fringe webmasters love to use on the forums. True fair use is for reviews, news and teaching, and even then there are limitations. Also, commercial vs. non-commercial is generally speaking not a factor in fair usage.
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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Yes, it absolutely does. For one, it was a public performance being videotaped by the OP. Two, he wouldn't directly be making money via the band.

Incorrect. I suggest you research the subject of "fair use". Stanford University has a nice resource on the matter.

In a 1994 case, the Supreme Court emphasized this first factor [transformative factor -- transforming the original work into something new and different] as being a primary indicator of fair use. At issue is whether the material has been used to help create something new, or merely copied verbatim into another work. When taking portions of copyrighted work, ask yourself the following questions:

Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?
Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings?

Taping a band and publishing it on YouTube is NOT transformative and IS a verbatim reproduction of the original performance. The first factor ALONE excludes this application from fair use. If that weren't enough to rule out fair use, add this...

The less you take, the more likely that your copying will be excused as a fair use. However, even if you take a small portion of a work, your copying will not be a fair use if the portion taken is the "heart" of the work. In other words, you are more likely to run into problems if you take the most memorable aspect of a work. For example, it would not probably not be a fair use to copy the opening guitar riff and the words "I can't get no satisfaction" from the song, "Satisfaction."

Taking the entire performance certain constitutes the "heart" of the work.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

Incorrect. I suggest you research the subject of "fair use". Stanford University has a nice resource on the matter.

In a 1994 case, the Supreme Court emphasized this first factor [transformative factor -- transforming the original work into something new and different] as being a primary indicator of fair use. At issue is whether the material has been used to help create something new, or merely copied verbatim into another work. When taking portions of copyrighted work, ask yourself the following questions:

Has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?
Was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights and understandings?

Taping a band and publishing it on YouTube is NOT transformative and IS a verbatim reproduction of the original performance. The first factor ALONE excludes this application from fair use. If that weren't enough to rule out fair use, add this...

The less you take, the more likely that your copying will be excused as a fair use. However, even if you take a small portion of a work, your copying will not be a fair use if the portion taken is the "heart" of the work. In other words, you are more likely to run into problems if you take the most memorable aspect of a work. For example, it would not probably not be a fair use to copy the opening guitar riff and the words "I can't get no satisfaction" from the song, "Satisfaction."

Taking the entire performance certain constitutes the "heart" of the work.

You can take a song from the concert, but not the entire concert.

YouTube - live concert

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Steven Carl Kelly 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

You can take a song from the concert, but not the entire concert.

Not without permission you can't. I'm not exactly sure where you're getting your information from, but whatever source you're using is wrong. Every individual song in a concert is protected by copyright individually.

You can't steal one song off of an album and reuse it, and you can't steal one song from a concert and reuse it.
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DubDubDubDot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheMayhem

I think if you were to contact the band and say:

Something most people find interesting is that bands actually do not own the copyright to their songs. Those rights are signed over to their label. They do not need a performance license to play their songs live, but the promoter/venue does need to purchase the license from their label. The band can't just decide when and where their material is used and have everything be in the clear. So it would be the label you must contact, and there is a 0% chance they are going to authorize this at no cost.

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

You can take a song from the concert, but not the entire concert.

YouTube - live concert

Posting a link to YouTube search results is hardly a compelling argument. It's like pointing to the dealer on the corner and trying to say that him being there means drugs are legal.

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NicheMayhem

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot

Something most people find interesting is that bands actually do not own the copyright to their songs. Those rights are signed over to their label.

I do find that interesting and hadn't though of it that way. Although, I was under the impression this was an amateur band and not main stream. Perhaps just an assumption on my part but I would think most amateur bands have probably not signed on with a label yet and still do say who can do what with their stuff.

I know my buddies band was nothing but thrilled when I took it upon myself as a fan to develop some ways to get them more exposure, and had no problem with me making a little bit from the visitors who came and then went out to their shows and bought their albums either. I think the key here is to give the impression you enjoy their music and want to help them out.

Banners, ad-sense and whatever you decide to monetize with is easily justified to them for not having to pay to keep the site up and going. Of course I should also mention though that my buddies band is just a small time thing where they get together and play because they love it. It does not generate the kind of traffic the OP described, not even close.

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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheMayhem

I do find that interesting and hadn't though of it that way. Although, I was under the impression this was an amateur band and not main stream. Perhaps just an assumption on my part but I would think most amateur bands have probably not signed on with a label yet and still do say who can do what with their stuff.

If the amateur band is unsigned and they still control the copyright to their own ORIGINAL work, then they have say-so. However, if an amateur band performs someone ELSE'S song (such as doing a cover) then they DON'T have the say-so over that.

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Jeff Hampton 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly

However, if an amateur band performs someone ELSE'S song (such as doing a cover) then they DON'T have the say-so over that.

Not necessarily true. There are many different ways that such a performance could be covered by copyright.
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- powercomm 14 years ago
  
  For what it's worth I always find that stuff like this will always come back and bite on the b*m.
  
  If it was all your own content then ok, but otherwise I would leave the pandora's box closed!!
  
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- Kay King 14 years ago
  
  Yes, it absolutely does. For one, it was a public performance being videotaped by the OP. Two, he wouldn't directly be making money via the band.
  
  You THINK it absolutely does - but you aren't an attorney or a judge so....
  
  The moment that is monetized, it's a different ball game even if your original assumption of "fair use" is correct.
  
  Lots of info and advice in this thread - there may or may not be a problem with having it uploaded now - the problem may arise when it's monetized. Plus you have advice from the US - and other countries, it seems - which may not apply to you in any way.
  
  You don't always get a warning or just have the video removed from YT - sometimes you get a bill or a summons.
  
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  Steven Carl Kelly 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kay King
  
  The moment that is monetized, it's a different ball game even if your original assumption of "fair use" is correct.
  
  Kay, if I may respectfully interject...
  
  There are actually instances in which a commercial use of copyrighted works can STILL be fair use. However, for the purposes of this particular application, your words bear strong consideration.
  
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  Kay King 14 years ago
  
  Absolutely right.
  
  The thing that is worrisome about "fair use" is that lawyers tell me what is "fair use" is whatever the COURT says it is - that's a risk I don't want to take.
  
  Too often "fair use" is quoted on the forum and defined as "whatever I think is fair" - risky one there.
  
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- Steven Carl Kelly 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by austinjeff
  
  Not necessarily true. There are many different ways that such a performance could be covered by copyright.
  
  That's what I said.
  
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Jeff Hampton 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

You can take a song from the concert, but not the entire concert.

YouTube - live concert

That's not correct. Not even close.

Yes, people get away with it all the time. People also get away with speeding. Doesn't mean it's legal. And it doesn't mean that I will get away with it.

Are you basing your assertions on some written source, or just on "common sense?" Because common sense has nothing to do with intellectual property law.

Free legal advice is worth less than you pay for it.
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Tsnyder 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Yes, it absolutely does. For one, it was a public performance being videotaped by the OP. Two, he wouldn't directly be making money via the band.

I'm not going to bore you by reciting my experience with
this subject so I'll just say, plain and simple, you really don't
know what you're talking about.

But hey... believe what you want... doesn't impact me one
way or the other.

The OP shouldn't even consider monetizing this without
express written permission from whoever currently holds
the rights.

Tsnyder
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Steven Carl Kelly 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

That is not the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is getting sued.

Right, Dan. And the second worst case scenario (maybe even first) is that you throw ethics out the window, steal someone else's product (their performance), infringe on someone else's copyright (in fact, not just the band but the song publisher's as well, if the song is not an original piece written by the band itself), and monetize for your own personal gain, all for a couple of dollars.
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DubDubDubDot 14 years ago

You may or may not be able to post the video to YouTube for non-commercial use. YouTube has licenses with some labels that keep them (and the uploader) out of hot water.

However, your proposed commercial use of the video is almost certainly not covered by any existing license.

ASCAP Licensing: Common Licensing Terms
BMI.com | Music Licensing

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

What you're doing is completely within guidelines of fair use.

At least read up on the most basic copyright issues before giving advice in the future.
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Dan Pierce

14 years ago

I have 1.1M video views on my page, but for me, I post regularly and in my case it wouldn't be worth my reputation (would be considered a sellout if I tried to push affiliate links), but if you have 1 video with a ton of views, it would be great to monetize. My friend from the youtube community got 6 million views on a video and was pushing one of Anthony Horowitz's products through annotations and description links and made over 50k in sales.

In terms of whether or not to monetize due to a possible copyright situation, I'd say do so. Videos really only get muted or pulled for copyright within the first few hours / days of upload, at this point, its rare the band will see it and start some sort of legal battle, as it seems like your views/day are declining, and its somewhat late to jump into to process of monetizing, but definitely worth doing so.

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DubDubDubDot

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

My friend from the youtube community got 6 million views on a video and was pushing one of Anthony Horowitz's products through annotations and description links and made over 50k in sales.

I presume that $50,000 is the actual sales figure and not his affiliate cut, which would be much less. Otherwise we are talking about $500k to $1M in sales from "only" 6 million views, depending on what % he got. And that is really over the top.

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Steve Wise

14 years ago

interesting topic

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lukemeister

14 years ago

It says this right on the upload page: Do not upload any TV shows, music videos, music concerts, or commercials without permission unless they consist entirely of content you created yourself.

They seem to specifically address just this issue - however I've watched so many live song performances by many bands on YouTube that it's almost mind blowing. It basically seems to me like there's an awful lot of uploading of live music shot by amateurs to YouTube, and a lot of it must be flying under the radar - kinda makes a person wonder where the line actually is

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NicheMayhem 14 years ago

Just my opinion here...

I think if you were to contact the band and say:

"Hey I came to one of your shows and had my video camera. After putting the video up on Youtube a long time ago I just realized it is getting a ton of traffic and people seem to really enjoy it. I own a website and would be willing to feature your band as a fan, I can host more of your videos if you have them or I can take the video down if you would like me to. The way I see it is since the video is just sitting there and getting a ton of views maybe we both could benefit by directing people to find out more about your band and visit one of my web properties. Could be a win-win, what do you think?"

Nothing wrong in asking them and really as long as they get the impression your not a prick, why wouldn't they want the free promotion? Definitely come off as a fan of their music and not just trying to make a buck riding their coattails.

If they agree though I would suggest you contact someone and get a formal agreement written up which covers everyone involved in case you end up making some dough or inadvertently causing them to go platinum. With them as willing content providers and you as the owner of the web property you are perfectly within your rights to monetize the site with a music related product or any way you please. Personally I would even offer t-sirts and buttons or stickers or something and get them made yourself as long as you get a cut of the profits.

Not my legal advice, just friendly advice of the best course of action so it doesn't end up costing you or pissing them off.
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Steven Carl Kelly

14 years ago

Directly from YouTube's site:

Some examples of potentially infringing content are:

TV shows
- Including sitcoms, sports broadcasts, news broadcasts, comedy shows, cartoons, dramas, etc.
- Includes network and cable TV, pay-per-view and on-demand TV
Music videos, such as the ones you might find on music video channels
Videos of live concerts, even if you captured the video yourself
- Even if you took the video yourself, the performer controls the right to use his/her image in a video, the songwriter owns the rights to the song being performed, and sometimes the venue prohibits filming without permission, so this video is likely to infringe somebody else's rights.
Movies and movie trailers
Commercials
Slide shows that include photos or images owned by somebody else

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hometutor

14 years ago

If the band has a web site a courtesy link in your description may help unruffle any future feathers

Rick

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Michael Oksa 14 years ago

Originally Posted by hometutor

If the band has a web site a courtesy link in your description may help unruffle any future feathers

Rick

Or, it may put you on their radar and get it taken down faster. It really depends on the band and who's on the other side of the band's website.

~Michael
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- mrmanpower 14 years ago
  
  this should be ok. slipping it and wording it nicely should help.
  
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Steven Carl Kelly 14 years ago

Originally Posted by hometutor

If the band has a web site a courtesy link in your description may help unruffle any future feathers

I'd say the best thing to do is to not ruffle the feathers in the first place. Contact the band, get permission (in writing), then proceed. Otherwise, don't put yourself at potential risk.
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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

You may be sitting on a goldmine, but it's a mine that could collapse at anytime. Now, you may get out of the rubble unscathed, or you could be trapped much longer than you wish.

Ignore any and all comments that tell you what you are doing is OK. They could get you into a lot of trouble.

At the same time, you shouldn't necessarily assume the other side is correct, as this is a legal question and should be handled by a trusted and qualified legal professional.

That being said, err on the side of caution for now and don't follow through on your idea. Either way I hope it all works out.

All the best,
Michael

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murphyslaw

14 years ago

I have never heard of YT doing anything but removing a monetized video... but I am sure there are cases where they have gone further

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Michael Oksa 14 years ago

Originally Posted by murphyslaw

I have never heard of YT doing anything but removing a monetized video... but I am sure there are cases where they have gone further

That may be, but YouTube aren't the ones who are going to sue you. It's the record companies and copyright holders you have to be concerned about.

~Michael
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- Jeff Hampton 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa
  
  That may be, but YouTube aren't the ones who are going to sue you. It's the record companies and copyright holders you have to be concerned about.
  
  Don't forget the Federal government. Copyright infringement is a violation of federal criminal law, punishable by a fine of up to $150,000 and 10 years in prison. Per incident.
  
  Now, is this likely to happen? Of course not. Is it possible? Yes.
  
  Intellectual property is very complicated, and is very heavily tilted in favor of the copyright holders. Basically, anything that you think maybe, possibly could be a violation, is. And much more.
  
  There will always be people online who will tell you that doing "such and such" is OK, for whatever convoluted reason. Ask them to cite their source, both legal code and court precedents.
  
  People think that it's just common sense that it should work in a certain way. Again, common sense has absolutely nothing to do with intellectual property law.
  
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