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That. Is NOT. A Coaching program!

by BrianSidwell
18 replies
Okay, let me say something. I bought Video Boss, perpetual traffic, and several other "coaching programs" ... and in every case lately I have been extremely impressed with the quality of the content.

Lets face it, we all know that about half the stuff you buy is garbage. Over about the last year or so, EVERYTHING has been great. Deiss, Kern, Filsaime, Jenkins ... man they have been putting out some REALLY good stuff.

Having said that, and despite the fact that I am pleased with the quality of the content ... I am getting rather "miffed" that so many of the big name marketers are selling "coaching programs" that are not AT ALL actual coaching programs.

Simply giving me videos to watch on some structured time frame (weekly in every case) is NOT "coaching" me. That's an ecourse.

Including a weekly conference call and calling it a "coaching call" does NOT mean that it actually IS a coaching call and does NOT turn an ECOURSE into a coaching program! Sorry, It doesn't and no amount of clever word twisting will make it otherwise.

And here's the thing ... here's what's really rubbing me raw about this ... every single person that I have spoken to which got one of the above ECOURSES was not swayed one way or another by the phrase "coaching program"

They wanted the material they were going to learn during the ECOURSE ... as did I ... because of what would be learned.

In fact with Perpetual Traffic (and now affiliate dot com) ... in both cases this absolute B.S. insistence to call the ECOURSE a "coaching program" actually turned me off and made me NOT want it.

Am I alone here?

Now, I know WHY they are calling their ECOURSE a "coaching program" because that way it creates an artificial shortage of space. After all, you can only "coach" so many people. An ecourse on the other hand is pretty unlimited in terms of the number of people.

However, calling your donkey a horse doesn't mean you don't still have an ass.

If anyone of you guys has the ear of any big name guys thinking of coming out with yet another "coaching program" that isn't one at all, can you let them know they are actually turning off their market?
#andy jenkins #coaching #coaching program #coaching programs #program #ryan deiss
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    It's not so black-and-white, but your point is well taken. Coaching can be done in a group setting or one-on-one. So if those guys are selling ecourses that include some group conference calls or webinars that include Q&A, then that is group coaching. At least it minimally qualifies as such. But, yeah, if they're calling it "coaching" when it's just an ecourse, you have a legit beef.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      I didn't get any of those courses you mentioned but what exactly is coaching to you?

      I'm with John that if they're offering live webinars where you can ask questions and if you can have your questions answered then that to me is an ecourse with coaching.

      If on top of that they also offer you one-on-one access via email and skype along with the video training and webinars that's also coaching in my book.

      If it's just video training then I agree that's not a coaching program.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianSidwell
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        I didn't get any of those courses you mentioned but what exactly is coaching to you?

        I'm with John that if they're offering live webinars where you can ask questions and if you can have your questions answered then that to me is an ecourse with coaching.

        If on top of that they also offer you one-on-one access via email and skype along with the video training and webinars that's also coaching in my book.

        If it's just video training then I agree that's not a coaching program.
        Coaching, to me, is much more individualized and customized than a simply Q&A that has so many friggin people on it that you only MIGHT get your specific question answered on the call.

        Further, only Andy's Video Boss gave a way of asking a question outside of the training call in a way that it could be answered. None of the others did. Which, I wouldn't mind IF the group calls were small enough that I was getting more than a simple question answered.

        Look, I pay ... well lets just say A LOT (and I don't care how much you make, this would classify as A LOT, but it's worth it) ... to a very big name, well known, business and investing guy to act as a coach.

        I and 6 other guys get on the phone with him once, rarely twice, a month.

        He is very good, very detailed, and because it's done in a group, we all learn more. As a general rule I much prefer being coached in a small group and I prefer to coach small groups.

        Everyone learns more that way. The coach gets more out of it and so do the people getting coached.

        BUT ... that assumes that the coach doesn't have 500 other people on the call. It assumes that when you ask a question, the coach knows EXACTLY who you are, where you are, your background, and all kinds of other things BEFORE giving a knee jerk answer to an isolated question.

        Coaching is not answering a question posed, without knowing any background of the person asking it.

        Coaching ASSUMES some kind of knowledge of the person being coached, it ASSUMES some kind of familiarity with where that person is.

        Coaching IS NOT having no earthly idea regarding anything about the person asking the question and just "winging" an answer.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
          When I was in college I was in some huge classes where the professor had no clue who I was and they used TA's (teaching assistants) so what's the difference? And I had to join the Army National Guard to pay for that coaching.

          I see where you're coming from which is why I don't get any of those big hyped up products but just like that big college class you can't expect to one-on-one, individualized coaching from the top dogs for a grand or two.

          You wrote you liked the content a lot so what's the issue? You don't like how they use the word coaching? You're just nit-picking way too much (no offense).

          And there are a lot of great IM coaches who do limit it the members so they can offer more individualized coaching but these are smaller players. You can learn a lot from them as well not just the big guns. Just like if you go to a smaller college. You'll actually get to know your college professors there and get more one-on-one coaching and the tuition will be a lot lower than one of the big colleges where you're just a number on a seating chart.

          I don't mean to sound negative to your OP Brian, I think this is a great topic to debate since the term "coaching" is thrown around loosely but not just in the IM niche.

          Originally Posted by BrianSidwell View Post

          Coaching, to me, is much more individualized and customized than a simply Q&A that has so many friggin people on it that you only MIGHT get your specific question answered on the call.

          Further, only Andy's Video Boss gave a way of asking a question outside of the training call in a way that it could be answered. None of the others did. Which, I wouldn't mind IF the group calls were small enough that I was getting more than a simple question answered.

          Look, I pay ... well lets just say A LOT (and I don't care how much you make, this would classify as A LOT, but it's worth it) ... to a very big name, well known, business and investing guy to act as a coach.

          I and 6 other guys get on the phone with him once, rarely twice, a month.

          He is very good, very detailed, and because it's done in a group, we all learn more. As a general rule I much prefer being coached in a small group and I prefer to coach small groups.

          Everyone learns more that way. The coach gets more out of it and so do the people getting coached.

          BUT ... that assumes that the coach doesn't have 500 other people on the call. It assumes that when you ask a question, the coach knows EXACTLY who you are, where you are, your background, and all kinds of other things BEFORE giving a knee jerk answer to an isolated question.

          Coaching is not answering a question posed, without knowing any background of the person asking it.

          Coaching ASSUMES some kind of knowledge of the person being coached, it ASSUMES some kind of familiarity with where that person is.

          Coaching IS NOT having no earthly idea regarding anything about the person asking the question and just "winging" an answer.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianSidwell
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      It's not so black-and-white, but your point is well taken. Coaching can be done in a group setting or one-on-one. So if those guys are selling ecourses that include some group conference calls or webinars that include Q&A, then that is group coaching. At least it minimally qualifies as such. But, yeah, if they're calling it "coaching" when it's just an ecourse, you have a legit beef.

      John
      I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Coaching is MUCH more than a simple Q&A.

      I coach A LOT of athletics. I'm not expecting the kind of one-on-one customization that I give to my athletes, not by any means. But at the same time, calling a simple Q&A session "coaching" is more than just a small stretch of a definition don't you think?
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by BrianSidwell View Post

        I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Coaching is MUCH more than a simple Q&A.

        I coach A LOT of athletics. I'm not expecting the kind of one-on-one customization that I give to my athletes, not by any means. But at the same time, calling a simple Q&A session "coaching" is more than just a small stretch of a definition don't you think?
        I think you're confusing coaching with mentoring, with all due respect. A coach (in the IM sense) is there to help you along and make sure that what they're teaching you is understood. A mentor is someone who takes you under his/her wing, guides you, and - this is the essential difference - pushes you to reach goals, stick to a timetable, etc.

        It's a bit like a progression based on level of involvement:

        Ecourse -------------- Coaching -------------- Mentoring
        (no involvement) (some involvement) (major involvement)

        Is that a bit oversimplified? Of course. But it's generally the way of these things.

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianSidwell
          Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

          I think you're confusing coaching with mentoring, with all due respect. A coach (in the IM sense) is there to help you along and make sure that what they're teaching you is understood. A mentor is someone who takes you under his/her wing, guides you, and - this is the essential difference - pushes you to reach goals, stick to a timetable, etc.

          It's a bit like a progression based on level of involvement:

          Ecourse -------------- Coaching -------------- Mentoring
          (no involvement) (some involvement) (major involvement)

          Is that a bit oversimplified? Of course. But it's generally the way of these things.

          John
          Your post here actually explains my frustration. Notice how you had to qualify with "in the IM sense"

          These "coaching programs" have COMPLETELY jacked up what the definition of "coaching" means.

          Even in "the real world sense" there is a difference between a coach and a mentor.

          "In the real world" a coach is someone who helps "on the field only". You practice with that person, potentially (probably even) individually or with a small number of other people.

          "In the real world" a MENTOR is someone who helps you both on the field AND OFF OF IT.

          A coach will help you to be a better player, and stop there. A MENTOR will help you get into college (or onto a pro team or whatever).

          In both cases, with a coach and a mentor, BOTH assume intimate knowledge of the person they are helping. It's just that a mentor goes a couple of steps beyond.

          In the IM world, in an effort create an artificial sense of scarcity, Frank Kern (who I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for) started this nonsense of calling something a "coaching program" when it was nothing of the sort.

          To make matters worse, he then went out and started TEACHING that jacked up mess to other people ... several of whom are now doing it (e.g. Jenkins, Filsaime, Deiss, etc.)

          Now, I truly understand the "value proposition" that he was trying to talk about. You create an ecourse and have everyone going through it at the same time so that during a Q&A call everyone is in the same place.

          I get the value proposition, I understand it ... I EVEN LIKE IT!!!

          My complaint comes when the take what is nothing more than an ecourse with a Q&A call and try and make it sound like it is so much more than it really is with the "coaching program" moniker.

          Does this make sense?

          I know this is all sounding very "ranty", and that is only sort of my intent I'm just hoping to stir up a conversation that returns "coaching" to where it belongs.
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          • Profile picture of the author theory expert
            Banned
            Originally Posted by BrianSidwell View Post

            In the IM world, in an effort create an artificial sense of scarcity, Frank Kern (who I have a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for) started this nonsense of calling something a "coaching program" when it was nothing of the sort.

            To make matters worse, he then went out and started TEACHING that jacked up mess to other people ... several of whom are now doing it (e.g. Jenkins, Filsaime, Deiss, etc.)
            nah it has been going on before I even knew who kern was.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Brian, I don't want to sound like sour grapes, but at least you are getting the conference calls and the Q&A.

              The last time I signed up for a "guru" program that included a 'one on one, personal coaching call', it turned out to be a high-pressure rep in a boiler room, whose sole job it was was to "coach" me into signing up for another, 5-figure "coaching program". The clod was so ham-handed that first I got mad, then I laughed at him. He ended the call by telling me that I "obviously wasn't serious about my business, or I'd be signed up by now".
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Way too many problems here to address in the space of a forum post and
                quite honestly, I want to get back to my video games.

                But for the record, one of the biggest problems is that people can't fricken
                agree on exactly what coaching/mentoring is.

                Are they the same?

                Are they different?

                What is involved with each one?

                If you ask 100 different people, you'll get 100 different answers as to what
                the difference is between coaching and mentoring and what each one
                consists of.

                If you also ask me, you're all splitting hairs here with your definitions and
                differences between the two.

                Somebody who is looking for coaching, mentoring, whatever the hell you
                want to call it...is looking for basically one thing that I have found to be
                the common theme.

                Somebody to take them by the hand and walk them through whatever
                it is they are trying to learn                .

                That's the bottom line folks. Call it coaching, call it mentoring, call it
                whatever you want. These people are looking for individual one on one
                attention                .

                But that's just part of the problem.

                The next part is the degree of that attention.

                Is it via email?

                It is via phone or Skype?

                Is it via actually flying to the person's house and living with them?

                How many hours per day, per week, per whatever?

                For that matter, what is the accepted period of time working with the
                coach and/or mentor? Is it an hour, a day, a week, a month?

                What?

                See, none of you can fricken agree on any of this. Trust me on this because
                I've been doing my own personal coaching or mentoring long enough to
                know.

                That's why, when somebody emails me inquiring about my coaching
                program, I ask them what it is exactly they're looking for.

                If it's beyond what I am willing to do, I tell them that they need to look
                elsewhere.

                In other words, if they say that they expect me to come and move in
                with them for 30 days I say thanks but no thanks...not for any amount
                of money.

                Personally, for me anyway, coaching is NOT giving somebody a bunch of
                ebooks to read and/or videos to watch. Yes, you can do that in addition
                to your personal attention.

                But to me, it's being there for the person to:

                1. Answer all their questions, no matter how detailed the responses have
                to be to answer them.

                2. Looking over all their work (sites, articles, PPC campaigns, blogs, etc.)
                and evaluating it.

                3. Giving personal attention that can't be gotten from a pre packaged
                book or video.

                That to me is coaching or mentoring or whatever you want to call it. And
                that is what I offer my students, who have so far been more than pleased
                with my work.

                But until the day comes when we can agree on what coaching or mentoring
                really is (and I'm sure there are those who don't agree with my own
                definition) we are never going to arrive at a solution to this problem.

                Coaching/mentoring is one of those gray areas that will always divide us.

                The coaches (at least some of them) will always feel that they are being
                asked for two much.

                The students (at least some of them) will always feel that they are being
                given too little.

                That's the way it is and that's the way it will always be.
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                • Profile picture of the author Maddi
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                  But to me, it's being there for the person to:

                  1. Answer all their questions, no matter how detailed the responses have
                  to be to answer them.

                  2. Looking over all their work (sites, articles, PPC campaigns, blogs, etc.)
                  and evaluating it.

                  3. Giving personal attention that can't be gotten from a pre packaged
                  book or video.

                  That to me is coaching or mentoring or whatever you want to call it. And
                  that is what I offer my students, who have so far been more than pleased
                  with my work.
                  THAT to me is Coaching, THAT is what I offer whenever I offer Coaching and if I wanna be Coached, that is what I expect.

                  It is better to have predefined expectations before offering/buying coaching to eliminate any hard feelings from either the student or the Coach.

                  Back to OP, the programs that you've bought, are NOT coaching from any definition

                  Maddi
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                • Profile picture of the author Joe Benjamin
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Way too many problems here to address in the space of a forum post and
                  quite honestly, I want to get back to my video games.

                  But for the record, one of the biggest problems is that people can't fricken
                  agree on exactly what coaching/mentoring is.

                  Are they the same?

                  Are they different?

                  What is involved with each one?

                  If you ask 100 different people, you'll get 100 different answers as to what
                  the difference is between coaching and mentoring and what each one
                  consists of.

                  If you also ask me, you're all splitting hairs here with your definitions and
                  differences between the two.

                  Somebody who is looking for coaching, mentoring, whatever the hell you
                  want to call it...is looking for basically one thing that I have found to be
                  the common theme.

                  Somebody to take them by the hand and walk them through whatever
                  it is they are trying to learn                  .

                  That's the bottom line folks. Call it coaching, call it mentoring, call it
                  whatever you want. These people are looking for individual one on one
                  attention                  .

                  But that's just part of the problem.

                  The next part is the degree of that attention.

                  Is it via email?

                  It is via phone or Skype?

                  Is it via actually flying to the person's house and living with them?

                  How many hours per day, per week, per whatever?

                  For that matter, what is the accepted period of time working with the
                  coach and/or mentor? Is it an hour, a day, a week, a month?

                  What?

                  See, none of you can fricken agree on any of this. Trust me on this because
                  I've been doing my own personal coaching or mentoring long enough to
                  know.

                  That's why, when somebody emails me inquiring about my coaching
                  program, I ask them what it is exactly they're looking for.

                  If it's beyond what I am willing to do, I tell them that they need to look
                  elsewhere.

                  In other words, if they say that they expect me to come and move in
                  with them for 30 days I say thanks but no thanks...not for any amount
                  of money.

                  Personally, for me anyway, coaching is NOT giving somebody a bunch of
                  ebooks to read and/or videos to watch. Yes, you can do that in addition
                  to your personal attention.

                  But to me, it's being there for the person to:

                  1. Answer all their questions, no matter how detailed the responses have
                  to be to answer them.

                  2. Looking over all their work (sites, articles, PPC campaigns, blogs, etc.)
                  and evaluating it.

                  3. Giving personal attention that can't be gotten from a pre packaged
                  book or video.

                  That to me is coaching or mentoring or whatever you want to call it. And
                  that is what I offer my students, who have so far been more than pleased
                  with my work.

                  But until the day comes when we can agree on what coaching or mentoring
                  really is (and I'm sure there are those who don't agree with my own
                  definition) we are never going to arrive at a solution to this problem.

                  Coaching/mentoring is one of those gray areas that will always divide us.

                  The coaches (at least some of them) will always feel that they are being
                  asked for two much.

                  The students (at least some of them) will always feel that they are being
                  given too little.

                  That's the way it is and that's the way it will always be.
                  The best explanation on what coaching is and is not
                  (perception) I've ever seen.

                  Your expectations will determine what you think is
                  coaching or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    I haven't bought anything from any of those guys, but since you have I can understand your frustration in being misled by a load of BS and hype.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianSidwell
      Originally Posted by Steven Carl Kelly View Post

      I haven't bought anything from any of those guys, but since you have I can understand your frustration in being misled by a load of BS and hype.
      Like I said ... what they are teaching seriously ROCKS. No joke the money I have spent has thus far been WELL worth it.

      The material has been high quality, the delivery well thought out. Frankly, it's been down right IMPRESSIVE.

      My gripe is with the whole "coaching" thing they keep attaching to their ecourses.
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      • Profile picture of the author Gary King
        Originally Posted by BrianSidwell View Post

        Like I said ... what they are teaching seriously ROCKS. No joke the money I have spent has thus far been WELL worth it.

        The material has been high quality, the delivery well thought out. Frankly, it's been down right IMPRESSIVE.

        My gripe is with the whole "coaching" thing they keep attaching to their ecourses.

        Brian,

        I get it that you are frustrated by the mis-use of the word coaching.

        What did the sales letters promise?

        Granted if they said "coaching" but mentioned nothing but "you can submit a help desk ticket at any time and we will ignore it in the order it was received" then really, there's no complaint to be filed.

        I understand you're going for a higher level here and trying to get folks to stop abusing/mis-using words... it's a noble cause, but kind of like getting a bunch of starving wet cats to play with yarn.

        Personally, I agree that the word coaching lends itself to interaction. It does however lend itself to the amount charged.

        You mentioned you paid a lot, that's cool, and also relative. I'm not picking on your statement, however, those that coach the way you describe won't do so for $27.

        I realize you probably paid much more than that, and if you feel they didn't deliver, I think you know what to do.

        As Steven said, it's basically impossible to define. You can try to over-deliver, but I guarantee that SOMEONE will say it's not enough.

        Again, it's great that you're discussing something that seems to be commonplace for abuse. Thanks for opening the proverbial can of worms.

        Makes for great conversation!
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  • Profile picture of the author Maddi
    I have been having that discussion with countless of my peers and my students for ages.

    Anything that gives you content drip fed, step by step, or whatever shape or format is a Product/Ecourse/Membership or whatever BUT coaching!

    Unless it has an interactive aspect of things, where you get to talk to the 'coach'. I'll give you that. You can call it coaching.

    Not when you give a product or access to a membership site and call it your Coaching Program, that is simply not true.

    And I'm with you on the other things too, the content is sometimes great, very informative and whatever was promised on the TIN. Just don't call it Coaching.

    Webinars, I'll give you that. As long as they are interactive with 2 way communication, yup, I'll let you get away with it.

    As a coach myself, it is quite frustrating at times when the word Coaching is overused.

    So frustrating that I didn't take my time to structure this reply the way I normally do, just firing away

    Maddi
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    If you're NOT giving personal attention to your customer, and if you're NOT critiquing what they're doing and giving them specific advice to move them forward, then you're NOT coaching them. Period.

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    It's just marketing - they know that people are telling each other that getting a coach is a good idea - so they call their training products coaching and increase the price - then those people buy it.

    Many of them have no idea what is and isn't coaching - they're not coaches.

    They're marketers, so they sell what people will pay for, the title is just the bait for the product.
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    nothing to see here.

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