Anyone Use NLP Persuasion Techniques?

[Teenage Genius]

I have been reading up on Covert-Hypnosis and NeuroLinguistic Programming (NLP)

Though Subliminal Messaging for use in advertisements is illegal, i think. Has/does anyone use any of the techniques taught by NLP practitioners to sell products.

I think EVERYONE should use the techniques to build a great Rapport with their customers. But what about things like anchoring, or asking people to visualize.

I could see these techniques working great, if you could somehow anchor your page/product with someones feeling of happiness or excitment - this would help your sales surely.

Im sure this would be quite difficult, and im not sure if its aloud, but im also sure it would go under the radar.

Any thoughts on this?

[Bearded]

Frank Kern talks a lot about NLP, and definitely utilizes some basic NLP techniques in his launches.

Tony Robbins uses NLP *extensively* in both his techniques for personal development and removing barriers, as well as in his selling.

Also Blair Warren and Harlan Kilstein are big into NLP in marketing.

[Peter Bestel]

There are plenty of copywriters and article writers that use NLP with varying degrees of success. Some actually market themselves as NLP Copywriters.

It could be argued that any good copy/article, whether the author is aware of hypnosis/NLP or not, will have its fare share of hypnotic language patterns scattered amongst the text.

Peter

N.B. This post should probably be moved to either the Mind Warriors or the Copywriting forum.

[MeTellYou]

Harlan Kilstein *excuse me for the spelling...) uses NLP. He claims to be very successful, but who doesn't?

[Loren Woirhaye]

studying NLP and persuasion literature will generally
make you a better marketer - more aware of the
subtleties of good communication.

Some of the better stuff I've read on the subject of
persuasion doesn't mention NLP - which is something
of a brand name anyway.

I did read one ebook some online marketer put out
about hypnotic language patterns. It was idiotic -
I guess he was trying to use the patterns to sell
his course, but he just came across as somebody who
couldn't write clearly.

[SeanIM]

I got certified as a practitioner years ago and love this stuff. I don't consider myself a pro by any means but I can tell you this...it simply works!

The most powerful core elements that I've found to work online is simply the understanding that people are often times more 'away from' than 'towards' motivated. There is a concept from evolutionary psychology that supports this called "automatic vigilance"...while at one time it was very useful for humans to notice negative things (survival)...it's one of the reasons we sometimes have the tendency to focus on the negative and be more oriented in that way.



DISCOVER THIS SECRET OR YOUR HEAD WILL EXPLODE AND YOUR FAMILY WILL DIE

...is much more powerful

than

WOULDN'T IT BE NICE TO HAVE A TON OF MONEY

...unless that ton of money was linked to keeping your head from exploding or your family from dying.

that's my 2.5c on the topic


- Sean

[Kyle Tully]

The more you use NLP Persuasion Techniques the more persuasive you will become

[Chris Thompson]

I'm certified in NLP and Ericksonian Hypnosis. I trained in Ericksonian Hypnosis under Dr. Mike Mandel in Toronto.

My course (see signature file) is about using these tools for parents who are dealing with the Terrible Twos (and beyond). It simply works, in all aspects of life. Very powerful stuff.

I also highly recommend that you read Dr. Robert Cialdini's book "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion".

It is in my top 5 books list.

[Teenage Genius]

thanks for all the replys, advise and information warriors.

I am going to focus a good portion of my daily routine to studying NLP, Persuicon, Hypnosis and all the rest of it from this day forward, it will no doubt be a very useful tool to sharpen.

Anyone know of any FREE resources and information/training bases purely on writing articles/internet marketing/copy writing/sales letters?

[Harlan]

You know what pisses me off?

All the people using BAD NLP and claiming it works.

It doesn't and it pisses people off.

You know the type. The idiots and morons who write something like...

BY NOW, YOU'RE ASKING YOURSELF how you can BUY MY PRODUCT RIGHT NOW.

Yeah and as a special bonus tonight only you can have Yankee Stadium free.

If you are going to use NLP, use it ethically or don't use it at all.

Use it with class or don't use it at all.

Use it elegantly so you they never notice the credit card number is being typed into the screen while they read.

Last year I taught NLP Copywriting I with all of the big name copywriters there.

It was impressive. Carlton, Garfinkel, Deutsch, Lampropolis, Voiles

It rocked.

And it made all these guys believers.

I can tell you all of these guys have studied NLP intensively.

But don't dick around with it.

Use it with care and if you haven't been trained in NLP, please don't tell people you use it.

It gives it a bad name.

NLP Copywriting III will take place next year and I'll be revealing some breakthroughs in persuasion techniques including some new video ideas that totally bypass the conscious mind.

Peace.

[Peter Bestel]

Hi Harlan.

The issue about NLP and hypnosis and whether their use is 'ethical' is a subject I've noticed gets quite a bit of airing.

I think your statement below might confuse some folk:

Originally Posted by Harlan

If you are going to use NLP, use it ethically or don't use it at all.

Use it elegantly so you they never notice the credit card number is being typed into the screen while they read.

Some might argue that these two statements are contradictory. Care to explain or expand?

Cheers

Peter

[John Taylor]

I qualified as a master NLP practitioner way back in
the 80's and I've studied with a few of the leading
NLP teachers including Bandler and Dilts.

I agree with Harlan that NLP should be used ethically.

NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
to manipulate people.

Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
self development tool.

The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
able to communicate with others.

John

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Peter Bestel

Hi Harlan.

The issue about NLP and hypnosis and whether their use is 'ethical' is a subject I've noticed gets quite a bit of airing.

I think your statement below might confuse some folk:

Some might argue that these two statements are contradictory. Care to explain or expand?

Cheers

Peter

Peter, it's called irony. :-)

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
to manipulate people.

Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
self development tool.

The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
able to communicate with others.

John

That is one amazing quote.

It made my day.

Thank you.

[Paul Hancox]

The co-founder of NLP, Richard Bandler, wrote a book on the subject, called "Persuasion Engineering". Some of the stuff he says he got up to in the book probably skirted the borderland of Ethical more than a few times

Incidentally, this book goes, in my opinion, way beyond traditional "NLP" and shows you how to really think out of the box when it comes to sales and marketing.

So apart from my copywriting videos, I'd suggest the best place to learn how to apply NLP to sales and marketing, is from the horse's mouth.

[Harlan]

Paul, I don't know you.

You don't know me.

But I look at your WSO and....

you're doing the stuff I write against.

The use of embedded commands "get this now" or implanting regret in the reader
are just not the kinds of ethical NLP I teach.

It's using NLP as a party trick.

And even worse.

People catch that crap like switching colors to embed the command and they
feel manipulated.

NLP should be much more elegant.

[Maria Gudelis]

One of my best landing pages, selling a 4 figure bootcamp, the headline started with "Imagine...",

got that one from my Agora ad copy swipe file!

NLP is incredible, I learned from taking courses, watching/studying the best closers on the real estate seminar circuit...

...and find it very powerful to use on a teleseminar..."You do want to start the New Year, $xxx wealthier don't you?"

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by miaroman

NLP is incredible, I learned from taking courses, watching/studying the best closers on the real estate seminar circuit...

...and find it very powerful to use on a teleseminar..."You do want to start the New Year, wealthier don't you?"

And you don't want to be seen as manipulative, do you?

This is grade school NLP crap.

The yes set and tag questions and bobbing your head up and down like a bobble head
all had their place when Willie Loman was selling.

Get elegant.

[Paul Hancox]

Hi Harlan

I certainly respect your viewpoint, but I haven't had ANYONE yet express to me that they felt manipulated when they read my copy.

On the other hand, I've had people express that they were excited about it.

Surely an NLP teacher such as yourself should not speak in generalizations such as "People... they feel manipulated". Isn't that mind-reading?

I am making a serious point, though. I've heard the same argument leveled against just about EVERY sales tactic that has ever been used.

Besides, NLP is not an "art", it is a "science" (ask Bandler). So I "get" where you're coming from, but fail to see your point about "elegance". Bandler certainly wasn't "elegant" when he talked about the time he sold cars, sitting behind them in the back seat and saying, "You want this!" (among many other non-elegant NLP tactics he used.)

Yet he sure sold a whole lot of cars

In my opinion, I suspect that most of the people who read my sales letter don't feel manipulated at all, because if they DO notice the embedded stuff, it probably intrigues them, and if they DON'T notice it, it affects them, they buy, and then they want to know what motivated them to buy (which is fully explained).

Personally, I could say I feel manipulated by your post, which denigrates the "idiots and morons" who are, according to you, using NLP badly, while pitching the next version of your product, as superior.

But I won't say I feel manipulated, because I admire the skill of how you anchored bad feelings to your "competition"... very skillful!

Totally manipulative (in my opinion), but very skillful nonetheless.

[williamstarrett]

Harlan, when you say elegant, you don't mean calling attention to someone else's work as an example of "how not to do" something as a way to establish contrasts and attention to yourself, do you?

Just curious. :)

Your physiology DVD was great btw.

[Joshua Houghton]

I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.

[Christie Love]

I have used EFT, Hypnosis, NAC, and NLP. Currently, I only perform self hypnosis and EFT on myself. Both of these techniques help me to gain clarity and focus, which allows me to write faster and with much more intent than if I did not use anything at all.

I encourage anyone to use these techniques, especially if they experience "Writer's Block."

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Paul Hancox

Bandler certainly wasn't "elegant" when he talked about the time he sold cars, sitting behind them in the back seat and saying, "You want this!" (among many other non-elegant NLP tactics he used.)

Yet he sure sold a whole lot of cars

Bandler never sold a car in his life.

When Bandler teaches most of it is "tall tales" he uses to install states in the audience.

You didn't believe the stories did you?

For B & G, change is all about state.

Change the state and you change the person. That's why the Physiology of Excellence is all about.

(I only threw that in because you accused me of pitching product and since I didn't, I might as well not miss the opportunity to make a buck.)

My friend and co-teacher Kenrick Cleveland teaches on Max Persuasion that you can "get away" with a lot of things with NLP.

But the day you get caught red handed trying to manipulate someone, you'll never forget the spanking you will get verbally or non-verbally.

David Blaine the magician recently performed an amazing feat of magic suspending himself upside down in Central Park.

People were astounded until picture appeared of him taking long breaks.

Then he was going to disappear in front of everyone.

Except his stage crew forgot to wind up his bungee cord and he was caught swinging back and forth looking rather stupid.

Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get nailed.

John and Richard were never my favorite NLP teachers anyway.

My favorite "official" NLP teacher is David Gordon - now he is artistry in action.

And my favorite "un-official" NLP teacher was the late Dave Dobson. A cranky old S.O.B., the sneaky bastard changed people way below the radar with such elegance, such art, and such compassion I'll always wonder how much more I could have learned from him.

Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.

About embedded commands he once said, "the only time I want to use in bedded commands is in bed with a woman."

I miss the bastard and he hasn't been gone a year.

Any way, back to your story.

Bandler was installing states through brute force.

He could be so freaken elegant as he is in some of his recordings or when he wasn't high on cocaine.

All of his live trainings - and especially Persuasion Engineering - are metaphoric.

It can be reduced to: Induce Wanton Buying State - point in the direction of product.

How you do it separates elegance from blunt object.

At NLP Copywriting I David Garfinkel did one of the exercises in the class with such elegance that when he finished reading it, everyone in the room wanted to buy what he wrote and he didn't even have a product in mind.

Now that was artistry.

And I propose all people who use NLP strive to reach that level.

Especially one who aspires to teach it to others.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Joshua Houghton

I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.

I was sent Igor's covert hypnosis set to review before they were published.

I had previously bought (and returned) his book on Deep Trance.

I buy dozens of books from Amazon each week. Way too many to count.

In my life, I have returned only one book - Igors. Pure crap.

I called the person promoting the set and after listening to the first few CDs told him this guy was a BS artist and to redo the set.

On the other hand, Kevin Hogan's work is excellent.

And what ever you can get of Dave Dobson's is gold.

I just transcribed a rare seminar of his on persuasion. I think it is going to be published soon.

Mastery in action.

Peace.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by williamstarrett

Harlan, when you say elegant, you don't mean calling attention to someone else's work as an example of "how not to do" something as a way to establish contrasts and attention to yourself, do you?

Just curious.

Your physiology DVD was great btw.

Not at all.

When I see elegance in someone else's work I'll stand up and applaud it.

Doug O'Brien

Jonathan Altfeld

Dr. Sulo

the late Dave Dobson

David Gordon

Stephen Gilligan

Kenrick Cleveland

the late Virginia Satir - grace & elegance with a lot of compassion

and probably many more.

I am their student.

[Adam Kenzington]

I am a NLP Practioner level "Student". I love the Study of Persuasion & Influence. But, I have to say that I find NLP, per se, quite useless in the real world. (I know, I'm pissing some people off, here, but, hear me out).

Most people attend NLP training and are enchanted by it, but even if they have some small success in the seminar setting, they typically find that they can't make it work the way it is supposed to in real world situations.

Let's face it, if NLP was the great modality that it's defenders claim it is, why aren't these same people living the successful life they claim it offers?

I dismiss NLP because I only want to use what gets me results in the real world. I feel I wasted my time and money in the study/pursuit of that skill. Now, I am glad I explored it, as it rounded out some of my understandings, but I had all the understanding I needed way before I got my Practioner's Certificate.

Although, there are many things that work. I just don't believe NLP is one of them. Matching & Mirroring...that doesn't gain you rapport, it is a bi-product of having rapport. Matching breathing & blink rates, what B.S. that is. It's too much work for minimal results. There are much easier, more effective ways.

I test things to see if I can get results with them. If I get the results, I keep it. If I don't get the results, I discard it. I am not emotionally attached to any technique that doesn't give me results.

So many defend NLP to their dying breath, but are they actually getting the results they were promised? Even Bandler, when it isn't working for him (he'll be in front of an audience, and) will tell the person who claims the change hasn't happened, that the change has been installed on an unconscious level. Good save there, buddy!

A couple of my favorite trainers are Tom Vizzini & Kim McFarland of Essential-Skills.com fame. There techniques work like gangbusters...and Harlan will be glad to know they do it in an elegant, seamless way that just gets the results. I also like Jamie Smart (from the UK). He is very talented, but he does teach alot of NLP, along with hypnotism and Influence.

I attempted to do a MySpace Blog on this, but I'm useless at Web 2.0 things, and was never able to figure out how to get the blog seen.

I was wanting to start a forum style group to train in result-getting techniques. I'd still like to do that.

Here are the first two posts I did:


To be able to Influence anyone you must be able to Capture and Lead their Imagination

Have you ever wanted to influence or persuade someone? Of course, everyone has. How’d that work out for you? For most people it is hit or miss. They try "talking someone into" something by trying to convince them, arguing, using reason, showing them facts and figures, etc...

I’ll let you in on a secret - THAT DOESN’T WORK! all those "techniques" will be perceived by the person you are trying to influence as coming from outside of themselves. So, even if it is in their own best interest, they will resist it.

You’re probably thinking, "OK, Adam, what do I do, then?" I’m glad you asked.

RULE 1: To be able to influence anyone you must be able to CAPTURE AND LEAD their IMAGINATION.

Whatever you can get a person to IMAGINE is perceived by them as BEING THEIR OWN THOUGHT and therefore they DO NOT RESIST IT.

That is worth reading again. I’ll wait here.

Did you get that? Good. Put another way:

Let them Imagine it and it Becomes their Own Idea! Capture the Imagination and you capture the heart.

People will only do things once they first IMAGINE doing it.

On this blog we will be learning and practicing very suggestive ways of speaking that does capture and lead people’s imaginations while still sounding like "normal" conversation. We will be giving people intense emotional experiences by involving all 5 of their senses.

This is Powerful! It a form of covert hypnosis. Done right, they will never see it coming. As far as the person you are influencing is concerned, they are having a normal conversation with someone who happens to be a fascinating conversationalist. They feel good!

Important note: We will always strive to sound "normal" when speaking. You don’t want to be thought of as "That weird guy that talks funny". So many trainers teach it that way. Most people’s first impulse when hearing you talk THAT way is to "grab the kids and run!" It’s just creepy.

We on this blog will NEVER talk like that.

Next - People don’t want "things" so much as the FEELINGS those things and experiences will give them. Having said that, we come to rule 2...

RULE 2: When influencing anyone, find out what their Ultimate Goal is and Lead Them through the States that get them to that goal, by doing what You Want.

Now, we should always strive for Win/Win situations. We don’t want to be unethical, here. But let’s face it, when you are persuading someone, you want something. What could be better than helping someone get what they want by doing (and/or giving you) what you want?

We will be learning "State Control", "Rapport", "Calibration", "Anchoring", "Language Patterns" that allow you to create states on the fly, and all things Covertly Influential.

Much of this we will be doing with language. Words are Containers for Power! Learn to use your words in a certain way and you become very powerful, indeed.

We are going to be covering all these things. AND we are going to be doing homework. (I heard you groan. Don’t worry, this will be fun!) Each week I will be "assigning tasks" for you to "play" with, with the people you come in contact with in your daily life. We will be reporting back to the group about our experiences and get helpful input on how to "tweak" it to be easier/more influential. You will not be graded on this, but there will be tests ;-)

So, if this sounds like something you would like to do, just subscribe to this blog and we will get started. Imagine how powerful your influence skills will be as you easily and naturally apply these techniques to get what you want. Because when you use these skills, people cannot help but want to do the things you suggest. And, because you are using these skills for win/win outcomes, people will always feel better for having been in your presence. As you learn these techniques, you will notice that your relationships (and finances) will improve more than you could ever have imagined.

Come on in and join our elite group. Become the "go to" person that everyone seeks out when they need to convince somebody, of anything.

We will be getting started in a few days. I look forward to working with you.

Until then, Trance-On!
I’m,
Adam Kenzington


Listen For People’s "TRANCE WORDS"

When you want to make sure what you are saying is registering with the person you are talking to, listen for and use that person’s "Trance Words".

Trance Words are words and phrases that the person uses habitually (repeats often in conversation).

When you notice what these words are, repeat them back to them exactly as they spoke them.

There is an activity out there called "Active Listening" which practices listening to what someone said and then reinterpreting those words (paraphrasing) them into similar language. DON’T DO THIS! You will be shooting yourself in the foot. This will jeopardize your rapport with the person.

These "Trance Words" have Power and hold Great Emotion & Feeling for those who spoke them.

Don’t re-interpret their words!

How many times have you said, or heard someone else say "That’s not what I said!" "You are putting words in my mouth!"? You will come across as someone who doesn’t listen and has twisted the facts to suit your own purposes.

Using their own words is not only safe, it’s Essential! These are the very words they think with, and their very own words resound clearly and personally with them. You are talking their language. Talk about Instant Rapport! They will think to themselves "This guy makes sense. He get’s it. I need to listen to him...", "I can trust what he says".

Remember...

If the Magic Word is "Abra Cadabra", it ain’t goin’a work with "Ala Kazaam"!

On a similar note, take notice of the physical "gestures" someone makes when they are speaking. The way they gesture with their hands, a tilt of the head, or perhaps they lean forward when making a point, etc...

Then, when you want to make a point, use these same gestures back at them while doing this. This is perceived by the person as "marking out" something important that they should pay attention to. It also unconsciously creates and reinforces rapport with the person. Remember, "People like people who are like themselves".

By using these techniques you will gain great influence with these people. You will be speaking their language and setting yourself up, in their mind, as an Authority Figure. Someone they will pay greater attention to, while at the same time, they will not question your message as critically because you have already passed their "smell test". You will have established trust and belief within them, and you will more easily bypass their critical thinking, their "bull**** detector", if you will. Not that you will be slinging B.S., but your message will more easily and naturally be accepted as "truth", and acted upon with less resistance.

OK, that’s it for today. Next time we will be studying "Intention", and how it is critical in all interactions with others. We will also be touching on "States" and "State Control".

If you have any questions on this, please feel free to ask them here, or at: adam@trance-formers.com

Until next time, try this stuff out for yourself,
I’m,
Adam Kenzington


I believe Persuasion & Influence techniques do work, but NLP as it is traditionally taught, I find very limited with regard to positive results.

PS. I know someone is going to point out that I bashed Matching & Mirroring and then advocated doing it in my blog post. Please note, words and movements that people use habitually (and unconsciously) are different than mimicking their breathing & blink rates. Focus on the habitual movements not the involuntary ones. Also, you don't need to do these things at the same time the other person is doing them (as taught in NLP), these are actions/words that are triggers (anchored) for these people. Fire them off when you are making your point. Use them strategically.

[Adam Kenzington]

Originally Posted by Christie Love

I have used EFT, Hypnosis, NAC, and NLP. Currently, I only perform self hypnosis and EFT on myself. Both of these techniques help me to gain clarity and focus, which allows me to write faster and with much more intent than if I did not use anything at all.

I encourage anyone to use these techniques, especially if they experience "Writer's Block."

You are so right about EFT. I use it on myself and others with great results. I love the person that says "It only works because you believe in it". I tell them "You are my favorite type of person to use this on, because you don't believe in it, yet...But you will"... and they do.

You can't deny the results. It works for both physical and emotional pain. Great Stuff!

[Teenage Genius]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I qualified as a master NLP practitioner way back in
the 80's and I've studied with a few of the leading
NLP teachers including Bandler and Dilts.

I agree with Harlan that NLP should be used ethically.

NLP is a very powerful tool which should NEVER be used
to manipulate people.

Trying to use NLP without proper training is like trying to
drive a formula one racing car without a driving license.

If you are going to study NLP begin by using it first as a
self development tool.

The more you know about yourself, the better you will be
able to communicate with others.

John

This is exactly what i want to do.

For a while now i have been fasinated by the human mind. By how everything in the universe, past,resent and future is all energy vibrating at different frequencys, and how thoughts turn into reality.

I want learn mind control, all areas of the subject. I really want to master it, to first master my own mind and 'know myself' and increase my productivity and what not, and then go on to use it as powerful persuision tools.

[Peter Bestel]

Originally Posted by Harlan

Peter, it's called irony. :-)

You obviously practice irony so 'elegantly' I didn't see it.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Adam Kenzington

Although, there are many things that work. I just don't believe NLP is one of them. Matching & Mirroring...that doesn't gain you rapport, it is a bi-product of having rapport. Matching breathing & blink rates, what B.S. that is. It's too much work for minimal results. There are much easier, more effective ways.

I can't vouch for your level of training or skill.

But if you want to see beauty and artistry, get Virginia Satir: Patterns of Her Magic and get the video the book is based on.

Now come back and tell me it's all B.S.

I think what you should do is go back to your trainer and say sincerely, "It's not working for me."

And let them determine your callibration skills.

Because getting in touch with someone's breathing is the single most effective thing anyone can do to create rapport.

And it ain't just NLP.

I just completed a yoga teacher training and when a teacher wants to work with a student, first they start breathing with the student.

Seriously dude, go back to your teacher and say, "I'm missing a piece."

Because if you missed this, you probably missed the heart of NLP.

Rapport IS NLP and you can never have too much rapport.

[Teenage Genius]

Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...

[davemiz]

its not illegal.... and its being used A LOT by big ad agencies.

mcdonalds has been using them on tv spots on food network for the last few years.... really evil stuff.

[Harlan]

Shut up Dave.

What do you know.

Using NLP to get the most beautiful women in the world to go to be with you.

With YOU of all people.

Tell everyone it doesn't work.

Tell them it's illegal and the NLP Police will get them.

Tell them to buy my stuff.

Well as Meatloaf said, "Two out of three ain't bad."

Cya.

[Peter Bestel]

Originally Posted by StevenBird

Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...

Unfortunately, nothing is near Ipswich!! LOL

No, seriously, there's probably some practice groups in and around your area. Seek out the UK NLP forums and you may get lucky with meeting people. Be careful though, a lot of practice groups are full of people like Harlan is warning you about.

Peter

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by Peter Bestel

Unfortunately, nothing is near Ipswich!! LOL

No, seriously, there's probably some practice groups in and around your area. Seek out the UK NLP forums and you may get lucky with meeting people. Be careful though, a lot of practice groups are full of people like Harlan is warning you about.

Peter

Jonathan Altfeld and Doug O'Brien travel through GB quite often. Jonathan's site is Mastery InSight Institute - NLP Neuro-Linguistic Programming Seminars and Resources - Top Site Page and Doug is at Neuro Linguistic Programming and Ericksonian Hypnotherapy - Douglas O'Brien and Associates

I strong DO NOT recommend a newbie train with Richard Bandler.

I don't normally use this language but he will F*** with your mind. Without permission.

Peace.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Joshua Houghton

I am a certified Hypnotist and I agree Bandler and Grinder are good places to start. For convert hypnosis check out Kevin Hogan and Igor Ledowski or however you spell his last name lol.

His course is The power of conversational hypnosis and is beyond good.

I have not yet been certified, but influence is more of an obsession for me and have many , many, videos, audios, books, and trainings regarding influence.

I'm more interested in influence as a whole and have been looking deeply into NLP as a result.

Kevin Hogan is probably one of my favorite influence teachers. Not only do his methods work for selling/copywriting. His audio hypnosis tapes actually work, real well. Specifically his course on Personal Mastery and his Course On Metaphors. Both are excellent.

Kevin Hogan also says the majority of NLP techniques being taught/used are un-scientific, un-proven, and may cause opposite effects. Although I don't have his NLP course, so I couldn't compare his teachings vs. someone elses.

I hear his Science Of Influence course is real good and thats the next course of his im picking up.

[IMLegacy]

I'm using NLP persuasion techniques right now. As a matter of fact, I just convinced you to buy one of my products within the next 30 days, and you didn't even know it.

Amazing! This stuff really works. Thanks in advance for your business.

[John Taylor]

Originally Posted by IMLegacy

Thanks in advance for your business.

Thanks in advance for the refund

John

[IMLegacy]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Thanks in advance for the refund

Ha! You got me. Thanks for the laugh.

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

Kevin Hogan also says the majority of NLP techniques being taught/used are un-scientific, un-proven, and may cause opposite effects. Although I don't have his NLP course, so I couldn't compare his teachings vs. someone elses.

That is so true.

My doctoral study was one of the first to prove an NLP concept worked.

It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.

Stephen Gilligan's work at Stamford was impressive.

He did some odd 28 tests and all worked.

I could go on about this but Kevin has a good point.

Peace.

[Paul Hancox]

Hi Harlan

Originally Posted by Harlan

Bandler never sold a car in his life.

When Bandler teaches most of it is "tall tales" he uses to install states in the audience.

You didn't believe the stories did you?

Yes I believed the stories because they are told as experiences. Please tells me in the book where he explains to his readers they are "tall tales".

If they are not true... then he was being manipulative. (But strangely I don't feel manipulated!)

But the day you get caught red handed trying to manipulate someone, you'll never forget the spanking you will get verbally or non-verbally.

Well, this all comes down to what you consider to be "manipulation". Obviously you have set yourself up as the arbiter of what is manipulative, and what is not.

And my favorite "un-official" NLP teacher was the late Dave Dobson. A cranky old S.O.B., the sneaky bastard changed people way below the radar with such elegance, such art, and such compassion I'll always wonder how much more I could have learned from him.

That's great. However, it sounds like he's using NLP in a therapeutic/healing context. The original poster was, however, discussing NLP in the context of selling products.

Besides, he "changed people way below the radar". So you're saying that if it's "below the radar" it's not manipulative, which implies that if it's above the radar it is?

Dave didn't think much of the language patterns you used.

About embedded commands he once said, "the only time I want to use in bedded commands is in bed with a woman."

Dave is certainly entitled to his opinion.

It can be reduced to: Induce Wanton Buying State - point in the direction of product.

Sure, but you don't think that's manipulative? LOL.

ALL of the techniques Bandler and Grinder (or Bandler and La Valle in "Persuasion Engineering") could be viewed as manipulative by some people.

Sliding anchors? Associating bad things to the competition? Embedded commands and ambiguities? These are ALL part of his book.

At NLP Copywriting I David Garfinkel did one of the exercises in the class with such elegance that when he finished reading it, everyone in the room wanted to buy what he wrote and he didn't even have a product in mind.

Now that was artistry.

Artistry, yes. But a classroom is not a marketplace and he didn't actually sell any products in this example - just a hypothetical product that all agreed to hypothetically buy.

Mind you, your examples do show me that many of even the top copywriters also have a lot to learn.

When I worked in direct sales, I had lots of people who promised to phone me back in the morning to place their order.

Most never did.

That's why we were taught to sell on the day. We quickly learned the difference between what people say they will do, and what they actually do.

And I propose all people who use NLP strive to reach that level.

The inherent danger of your viewpoint is in elevating selling and copywriting to the level of art.

Yes, there is a certain amount of artistry in them both, but art is ultimately about showmanship, and this isn't what selling is really about. When we craft a sales letter, we're not writing to impress other copywriters or fellow marketers, we're writing to sell the product.

Or we should be.

In reality, many copywriters ARE also writing to impress potential clients, and other copywriters.

It then becomes an ego thing; who's sales letter is more "elegant", "artistic" etc.

Besides, "elegance" and "artistry" are all subjective things. I happen to love Beethoven's music, but I know others who think he was just one big noise

Who is right? The answer is, art is subjective, so both are right.

After you spoke for the entire human race on what they should find manipulative, I think you'll find reality doesn't work like that.

To give you an example, I know lots of happily married people who tell the story of how they first met.

Most of the time one of them used things which many others might consider manipulative... maybe a cheesy chat-up line; an attempt at seduction; or something that was only ever meant to be a one-night-stand.

And yet because the OUTCOME was a happy marriage, the story of "how he used that lame chat-up line on me" or "she seduced me" or whatever, becomes just a story...

... they don't feel manipulated because the OUTCOME was ultimately right for them, and what they wanted.

What is my point here?

Personally, I hate chat-up lines. I think they're cheesy, and some would even say manipulative. Yet how many long-term relationships were started because of one? A lot more than people think!

It's because even manipulation is a subjective thing. One person might view chat up lines as manipulative, and then end up in a happy, loving relationship that started because of a chat-up line!

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Harlan

That is so true.

My doctoral study was one of the first to prove an NLP concept worked.

It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.

Stephen Gilligan's work at Stamford was impressive.

He did some odd 28 tests and all worked.

I could go on about this but Kevin has a good point.

Peace.

Exactly, NLP works and what Kevin mentioned is some of it isnt proven.

What that is- well maybe you have to buy his course to find out, I dont know

Since I haven't done tests myself, I rely on others like Hogan, yourself, and others for there tests.

Everyone has there own agenda. And if a technique or whatever, poduces a desired result for one person over and over, then use it.

Testing in anything is key, and when trying to influence, one should always test.

Even if someone says it doesn't work, you should always test yourself.

You never know. We can produce new ideas and results this way.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Harlan

That is so true.
It was a complex test of therapeutic metaphor.

Metaphors intrigue me.

Is there a more poweful way to change a belief or behavior than metaphors? I've been trying to get my hands on a lot of metaphor stuff.

Whats a good course/book for learning about terapeutic metaphors and for metaphors in selling? I appreciate it- thanks...

[Harlan]

Wow you've written so much and so well I will try to respond in kind.

Bandler never says they the stories are lies. The more you break down the stories and the more time you spend with him, the more you see what he does.

Bandler does this on numerous levels.

1. Tonality - Bandler changes his tonality constantly and is a master at it. He uses his tone to annoy or soothe. His goal is to move you from whatever state you are in. If you are comfortable, he wants you upset. If you are angry, he wants you calm. Listen to him speak to a room. He is setting multiple tonal anchors throughout the training. And at the end of the training, he collapses all the anchors to produce change.

2. Non-verbal analogical marking: Bandler is a whiz at this. He makes all kinds of sounds in his training to anchor these states. Again, he brings them to a crescendo at the close.

3. Joking: Bandler is funny to watch. He has a routine worked out perfectly. Joking is the perfect modality to change state. Watch what he does AFTER the joke.

4. Metaphor: All of these tricks he conceals in his stories. If you ask them if they are true he will say something like; pull your head out of your ass and walk off.

Got to run now but I'll comment on some other points you made later on.

[Adam Kenzington]

Originally Posted by StevenBird

Don't surpose anyone knows of anyone near Ipswich in the UK who could help me...

Hey Steven,

I must admit, my world geography could use a brush-up, but one of the best trainers in the UK is a guy named "Jamie Smart". He and his staff have great trainings and programs available.

Check out his website: Salad ltd, NLP training and products

I think you will find plenty there that will be useful. Also sign up for his free services. He has 3 different free e-mail newsletters worth checking out. (and his "NLP Tips" are archived, so you can go back to the beginning with his great stuff).

Besides the "NLP Tips", he also has "Irresistible Influence" and "Hypnotic Language" newsletters, too. The Irresistible Influence & Hypnotic Language are weekly posts based on his hugely popular "Card Decks" that teach you how to use language patterns.

I wish I lived near by so I could attend a few of Jamie's seminars.

I'm going to make an assumption, right now, and tell you "You'll love it!"

Later,

Adam

[Chris Thompson]

Here is an example of how NOT to use hypnosis and NLP in marketing, in my own opinion. I do not intent to knock the site owner, but I would just do things differently if it was me:

(I found this just searching on the topic and opted into his newsletter. This is the thank you page)

Thank You

[Harlan]

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

Metaphors intrigue me.

Is there a more poweful way to change a belief or behavior than metaphors? I've been trying to get my hands on a lot of metaphor stuff.

Whats a good course/book for learning about terapeutic metaphors and for metaphors in selling? I appreciate it- thanks...

The definitive book on therapeutic metaphors remains David Gordon's book, Therapeutic Metaphor. His video series available at that url is excellent.

Unfortunately, the NLP model was therapeutic. In 2009, David and I will be presenting on therapeutic metaphors for persuasion.

[williamstarrett]

That audio is hilarious. I mean, I like to rely on conversion stats more than my opinions but I couldn't quit laughing toward the end.

Originally Posted by Chris Thompson

Here is an example of how NOT to use hypnosis and NLP in marketing, in my own opinion. I do not intent to knock the site owner, but I would just do things differently if it was me:

[webwise66]

Well, this NLP thing certainly is getting a discussion going.
When I trained to do my Alexander Technique teacher certificate I was very lucky that our instructor was very well trained in NLP (by Grinder & Bandler, the 2 originators, actually). I found the study an absolute eye opener.

My approach to using NLP techniques is certainly in the choice of words but even more so in the realization that very few people take information in evenly and equally through all 3 senses (visual/auditory/kynesthetic) but are seriously lopsided towards one of the 3 and many towards the visual.
So for them reading a long sales letter might be a pain in the butt and watching a video all of a sudden makes complete sense.
You get what I mean...
There seems to be a lot more videos out there.
See, feel and listen.

[Adam Kenzington]

Originally Posted by williamstarrett

That audio is hilarious. I mean, I like to rely on conversion stats more than my opinions but I couldn't quit laughing toward the end.

I know what you mean. He slaughters it with his feeble attempt at embedded commands.

As Harlan would say (and I agree with), he is not elegant of speech.

The inflection and pauses for his embedded command work is so obvious (and annoying). You do not need to be that "marked out" to be effective. It can be done so much more gracefully, and the mind will still pick it up.

This guy is one of those trainers that just come across as "Creepy".