3 Ways To Stop Relying on Google Rankings

by Zeus66
63 replies
You know what makes me kind of nervous? Relying more than just a little bit on Google rankings for traffic. First, they take a lot of work if you want to rank for moderately-to-heavily competitive keywords. Second, they can go POOF! overnight. That's no way to run a business!

So I've been thinking a lot more lately about 3 other ways to get traffic and make sales where Google plays no role at all:

1. List Marketing
2. Continuity Memberships
3. Info Products (using affiliates & launch contests)

This is where I'm heading with my own business, so I thought I'd share my thoughts on why. Obviously, the first and biggest reason is reducing the reliance on search engines for free traffic. I guess I could add PPC as an alternative, and I know lots of marketers make good money using it. But it's not for me. I have an innate aversion to paying cash for traffic. I think it's genetic.

If you're into blogging or affiliate marketing, etc. where you rely on Google rankings to send you traffic, aren't you tired of being at the mercy of Google's next change? Man, that just wears you down, especially if you've ever been hit hard by changes. So, I'm not doing it anymore. Well, I am, but I'm not going to rely nearly as much on SEO and all the rest. I'm breaking free!

Having a list has taught me over the last couple of years that long-term success and growth are predicated on developing relationships built on trust and value. The more you have of that, the less you have to rely on a steady flow of new people from search engines or anywhere else.

I think the same can be said of continuity memberships. As long as you provide real value and solid info, you take all of the pressure off of having to constantly sell to a flow of new prospects.

All of which plays, I think, into creating your own products. You're gonna need content, whether you work hard on a list or a membership site - and especially if you do both.

But before you get to that, you need the knowledge. I think a lot of people never get into list building or memberships simply because they don't think they're "expert" enough.

But I've learned over the years that such thinking is also a fallacy for many people. Chances are, unless you're really and truly a newbie, you know enough to provide good value and solid info to others who are a step or two behind you on the learning curve.

So, ultimately, what I'm saying here is to think outside of the SEO box a bit. Don't limit your chances by following the crowd. Yes, some of them make nice livings! But most of them also have had to spend lots of hours (and/or a fair amount of money) getting themselves into that position. It's not a quick way to start seeing the $$$.

Trust me - a simple little 10-page report on some aspect of IM or MMO that you know a bit about is valuable to lots of other would-be marketers! Write that report, set up a simple little opt-in page, and build yourself a list. Then, help your list members by sending more good tidbits about that same subject. While you're building up trust with them, create a more in-depth ebook about the topic (or something closely related). Offer it to your list. You'll be surprised. You really will. As long as you gave a lot of value and built up that all-important trust level early on, your list members will respond by buying your ebook. Make sure it's related to the initial report that got them on your list, though. That's really important!

Once you've got your feet under you doing that, work on setting up a nice little membership site. WP has some free plug-ins that make this a snap to do. Where do you get people to join your paid membership? From your list!

Notice how none of this relies on Google traffic? You can get people to join your list by using articles on sites like EZA and ArticlesBase. I also recommend videos on YouTube. You would be surprised how easy they are to make if you have a mic or a headset for your computer. You just need something like Jing or Camtasia. Jing Pro is very inexpensive and I use it all the time. It has a feature to upload directly to your YouTube account. Super easy! Put a link to your opt-in page in your video description and drive traffic to your opt-in page that way. Same with your articles... link at the bottom and lure them in with a strong call to action.

Now you're building a 2-pronged business that is sustainable AND does not rely very much on Google rankings! To take it a step farther, set up an affiliate program for your membership site. Promote that part of it in forums like this one. There are many other IM and MMO forums, as well. Lots of affiliates frequent these forums, so they're right there for the asking.

This is the direction I'm heading. I got to where I am largely by building an empire of Adsense and affiliate niche sites. Those will always be there to make me a nice residual monthly income. But they rely very heavily on Google rankings.

And I'm sick of worrying and tweaking and being under the threat of the next Google change. In other words, those are good income streams, but they should not be anyone's SOLE source of online income. It's too shaky a foundation.

Hope this helps some of you who are floundering and wondering what direction to take things.

John
#google #list #membership #rankings #relying #serps #stop #ways
  • Profile picture of the author vstar00
    Great post Zeus. I have heard some bad stories about google killing off sites.

    Regarding the three options you have given, which do you think is the most affective?

    Also, how big you do think a list should be before you release your product?
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by vstar00 View Post

      Great post Zeus. I have heard some bad stories about google killing off sites.

      Regarding the three options you have given, which do you think is the most affective?

      Also, how big you do think a list should be before you release your product?
      They all work together. You can build a list and promote to it with products that are not your own. Many marketers do just that and make nice livings. But I think owning the products is so much better. Don't BE an affiliate.... HAVE affiliates! They'll drive most of your traffic (if the product and conversions are solid).

      Once you have at least one info product (ebook) to sell to the list and a shorter report to use for subscriber bait, you're in business with a list. Set that up before you start adding subscribers, though, so it's all in place.

      The membership thing is maybe the most lucrative in the shorter term, but the list will be your main asset for the long run, no question. As long as you don't sour the trust they have in you, it'll work for you for years and years.

      John
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  • Some good points. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author adionline
    Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
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  • Profile picture of the author taylorwinfield4
    I know how you feel man! One day you'd be riding high on Googles first page, then the next day for no reason your back to page 5 or so and your business really suffers from it!
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Excellent post. I've put a lot more emphasis on my list also. Not only does it reduce my dependence on Google, it reduces my dependence on Flippa, since I am a site flipper.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Aside from genetic aversion, I do think paid traffic should still remain in the table. It doesn't have to be Google, and it doesn't have to be PPC - or PPV or even CPA.

      I'm not about to start handing out advice on paid traffic, because I'm still feeling my way up the learning curve. I just think that if I can reliably make a dollar every time I spend a quarter, I'm going to shove as many quarters in the slot as I can.

      I've heard it from Dan Kennedy to Perry Marshall - if you can pay more for a visitor than your competition earns on a sale, you can own a market. And that sounds like a nice place to be...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I just think that if I can reliably make a dollar every time I spend a quarter, I'm going to shove as many quarters in the slot as I can.
        I tried Adwords and unfortunately, Google now owns my first born. I made a quarter for every dollar I spent.

        Imagine being a child raised by Google and having to get backlinks to get any attention.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        John, I'm actually proud of this.

        You can't find my sites in the SERPs.

        I don't think I rank better than page 30 for any keywords that are of any
        real meaning. Sure, for some of my health stuff I'm on page 1 only because
        there isn't much competition. But for the IM niche, forget it...nowhere.

        So let's take a look at your list:

        1. List Marketing (check)
        2. Continuity Memberships (check)
        3. Info Products (using affiliates & launch contests) (check)

        Yep, been doing them all for years.

        I've been told that I can milk more money out of a dead stone than anybody
        else on the planet.

        Developing relationships and providing REAL value to the people who trust
        you is, IMO, the ONLY way to survive outside of simply paying for traffic,
        which I don't like to do either.

        Great thread from you...as always.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Great post, John (seems like I say that to you a lot).

    I do rely on the search engines ... as a way to bring in new traffic, but I got away from strictly relying on the search engines when my site was hacked and it was temporarily banished to search engine purgatory.

    I also have several mailing lists, one of them quite large, and a member site with over 500 members. The direction you're heading is absolutely a wise choice.

    Something else I get a lot of mileage from you may want to consider is giving away free reports, if you're not already doing that. Nothing like having others give your reports away and helping spread your links and info for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author IMStudentforlife
      Really Google is what Yahoo used to be (Yahoo actually stands for You Always Have Other Options). I have been debating on posting my thoughts on Google from when I first started to use them in 1999 and what I have seen the whole SEO game turn from Yahoo to Google. Not sure if the G-Thugs will come a knockin thou..

      I see your point since Google has most IM'ers jumping through hoops only to destroy their ranks. So I do see the value in this post. (excellent post btw). And to stop being so dependant on Google look for other traffic sources. With them changing their algorithm up to 400 times per year, and the whole May Day Fiasco..
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    You know if a brain dead "Old Geezer" like me can grasp what John is talking about, then I know others can.

    My list, memberships and one or two other things are helping not to have to depend on the big G. However, I don't rule them out for the free traffic.

    So far I haven't been hit hard by any changes they have made and knock on wood I won't in the foreseeable future. Wait scratch that, now that I've said it out loud lightening will strike. If it does I blame it all on Zesus.

    Ken Leatherman

    The Old Geezer
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      Wait scratch that, now that I've said it out loud lightening will strike. If it does I blame it all on Zesus.

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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

        Zesus Phrist, dude!
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    Wow - I just subscribed to this thread so I can come back and read the OP a little more in depth. Even some of the replies have me surprized. I knew there were many Google haters but I thought most of the Warriors were still looking at ranking as the first and best way to succeed.

    Yes I do get tired of Google's never ending changes and their super secretive algorithm that even the "experts" debate.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vicky K
      Very inspiring post, thanks for that!

      I totally hear ya. Just when one of my site started picking up some SEO traffic and actually made fantastic profit - google froze me. Over night, it was completely gone from anywhere near the top.

      I am still doing SEO, but I am definitely looking around to find other ways of getting traffic. I started looking into PPC but your ideas definitely opened another little door in my brain.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I just gave the OP a five star rating. Not just because it's very much inline with how I think, but it's also true. A few years ago Allen Says released an edition of his "Private Posts" (you can find it in the War Room now). In one part of it he talks about "creating your own network". Once you create a group or network of people who will buy from you again and again, you will never go out of business. In fact, if you set it up right it will grow all on it's own.

    Building a list.

    Membership websites (free and/or paid).

    Forums.

    Mailing lists (postcards, snail mail, etc.).

    Creating your own network of blogs and websites.

    If Google went out of business tomorrow our company would still continue to thrive and grow because they are less than 5% of our overall traffic. I have learned that diversification is essential in this business.

    Here's something to think about. One of our interns began writing two articles a day in the uber competitive "get your girlfriend back" niche, which is a sub niche of the dating niche back in February of this year. She submitted those two articles to 3 article directories. She then created one video each week and submitted that video using Incansoft's videbot. She had a product mix of 3 reports that she wrote and 10 other affiliate products. All I did was tell her what to do, I never showed her how to do it.

    What she did was give away an hour long audio and a free report to build her list. It's now September and she's now earning a cool $1,400 per month NET. That might not seem like a lot of money, but it's all relative. She was making $800 a month as a full time cashier and couldn't be happier. She's really excited now because we're showing her how to create a network of blogs in a way that won't rely on traffic from Google. Focus on building your own network and things will get much easier for you over time.

    If you understand the power of compound interest than you'll understand the power of compound efforts.

    Good post John.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author jtpada
      Feeling like a Google slave myself lately I love your inspiring post tons! It´s been like a very tiresome rat race that has you constantly worrying.

      Like your ideas on thinking outside-of-the-box
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      Not just because it's very much inline with how I think, but it's also true.
      Um...

      How much of what you think is NOT true?

      I mean, just out of curiosity.

      Because I read this, and I imagine you saying to yourself "Gee, this idea is a load of crap, but I kind of like it... so I'll go right on thinking it anyway."
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Um...

        How much of what you think is NOT true?

        I mean, just out of curiosity.

        Because I read this, and I imagine you saying to yourself "Gee, this idea is a load of crap, but I kind of like it... so I'll go right on thinking it anyway."
        You took what I wrote completely out of context. I also don't see how what you wrote adds anything of value to this thread or the post that I made.

        RoD
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        "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          I also don't see how what you wrote adds anything of value to this thread or the post that I made.
          It inspired your response, which does.

          Now, here's a question.

          What value do you think you added with this response?

          Because I did find value in it.

          What do you suppose it was?
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author humbledmarket
    Banned
    Wow such a long informative post. Generally if I don't reply on Google rankings I'd perhaps use social marketing; I have an idea with using facebook for viral traffic. Going to try it out and if it works then make it into a WSO. I've seen someone do it and it looks quite successful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    I'm starting to think we need a complete separate section entitiled "the Wisdom of Zeus66". Another great post with viable information. I actually built several blogs after reading your posts about them. They have all been recently indexed and starting to get visits. I was already building a list, but like the free residual income from the blogs and I actually combined the two biz models by putting opt ins on my blog for that niche. Keep it coming.

    THANKS FOR THE GREAT INFO
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Coleman
      John,

      Actionable and consistent information from you as always. By the way, is your avatar on the beach in Maui? ;-)

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by Paul Coleman View Post

        John,

        Actionable and consistent information from you as always. By the way, is your avatar on the beach in Maui? ;-)

        Paul
        Boy, don't I wish! Tropical Storm Hermine is blowing through Texas today and tomorrow. I could use some Maui about now.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Coleman
          Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

          Boy, don't I wish! Tropical Storm Hermine is blowing through Texas today and tomorrow. I could use some Maui about now.
          John, for all your hard work, I believe you deserve a Maui vacation. Life is good.

          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author sconlinemarketing
    Good luck with your methods. Can you maybe give us some results of your efforts from a starting and ending period. Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author maggie2
    So I've been thinking a lot more lately about 3 other ways to get traffic and make sales where Google plays no role at all:

    1. List Marketing
    2. Continuity Memberships
    3. Info Products (using affiliates & launch contests)
    What a great post and thank you for it.

    Have you considered some other ways of generating traffic such as Facebook, Twitter, social marketing, social bookmarking, craigslist, Squidoo and other such sites?

    If not, I was wondering why not. I guess I'm wondering if you feel they aren't worth the time and effort or something. Seems that there are quite a few folks here who do use those methods, I'm just not sure how fruitful they might be.
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    Marg

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  • Profile picture of the author IMAdam
    I'd have to agree with your conclusions.

    Although, I've been able to rank multiple sites on page one, google just seems way too unstable with rankings, especially lately. What I do now is build a site only IF it's easy to rank, and if it sticks with some backlinking, on-site SEO and original content, great. If it disappears, then I'm done with it and possibly sell it.

    I've been venturing into list building and I have to say, it's the way to go to keep a sustainable business. I haven't ventured into membership sites, yet. But that's my next venture to tackle.
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  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

    You know what makes me kind of nervous? Relying more than just a little bit on Google rankings for traffic. First, they take a lot of work if you want to rank for moderately-to-heavily competitive keywords. Second, they can go POOF! overnight. That's no way to run a business!

    So I've been thinking a lot more lately about 3 other ways to get traffic and make sales where Google plays no role at all:

    1. List Marketing
    2. Continuity Memberships
    3. Info Products (using affiliates & launch contests)

    This is where I'm heading with my own business, so I thought I'd share my thoughts on why. Obviously, the first and biggest reason is reducing the reliance on search engines for free traffic. I guess I could add PPC as an alternative, and I know lots of marketers make good money using it. But it's not for me. I have an innate aversion to paying cash for traffic. I think it's genetic.

    If you're into blogging or affiliate marketing, etc. where you rely on Google rankings to send you traffic, aren't you tired of being at the mercy of Google's next change? Man, that just wears you down, especially if you've ever been hit hard by changes. So, I'm not doing it anymore. Well, I am, but I'm not going to rely nearly as much on SEO and all the rest. I'm breaking free!

    Having a list has taught me over the last couple of years that long-term success and growth are predicated on developing relationships built on trust and value. The more you have of that, the less you have to rely on a steady flow of new people from search engines or anywhere else.

    I think the same can be said of continuity memberships. As long as you provide real value and solid info, you take all of the pressure off of having to constantly sell to a flow of new prospects.

    All of which plays, I think, into creating your own products. You're gonna need content, whether you work hard on a list or a membership site - and especially if you do both.

    But before you get to that, you need the knowledge. I think a lot of people never get into list building or memberships simply because they don't think they're "expert" enough.

    But I've learned over the years that such thinking is also a fallacy for many people. Chances are, unless you're really and truly a newbie, you know enough to provide good value and solid info to others who are a step or two behind you on the learning curve.

    So, ultimately, what I'm saying here is to think outside of the SEO box a bit. Don't limit your chances by following the crowd. Yes, some of them make nice livings! But most of them also have had to spend lots of hours (and/or a fair amount of money) getting themselves into that position. It's not a quick way to start seeing the $$$.

    Trust me - a simple little 10-page report on some aspect of IM or MMO that you know a bit about is valuable to lots of other would-be marketers! Write that report, set up a simple little opt-in page, and build yourself a list. Then, help your list members by sending more good tidbits about that same subject. While you're building up trust with them, create a more in-depth ebook about the topic (or something closely related). Offer it to your list. You'll be surprised. You really will. As long as you gave a lot of value and built up that all-important trust level early on, your list members will respond by buying your ebook. Make sure it's related to the initial report that got them on your list, though. That's really important!

    Once you've got your feet under you doing that, work on setting up a nice little membership site. WP has some free plug-ins that make this a snap to do. Where do you get people to join your paid membership? From your list!

    Notice how none of this relies on Google traffic? You can get people to join your list by using articles on sites like EZA and ArticlesBase. I also recommend videos on YouTube. You would be surprised how easy they are to make if you have a mic or a headset for your computer. You just need something like Jing or Camtasia. Jing Pro is very inexpensive and I use it all the time. It has a feature to upload directly to your YouTube account. Super easy! Put a link to your opt-in page in your video description and drive traffic to your opt-in page that way. Same with your articles... link at the bottom and lure them in with a strong call to action.

    Now you're building a 2-pronged business that is sustainable AND does not rely very much on Google rankings! To take it a step farther, set up an affiliate program for your membership site. Promote that part of it in forums like this one. There are many other IM and MMO forums, as well. Lots of affiliates frequent these forums, so they're right there for the asking.

    This is the direction I'm heading. I got to where I am largely by building an empire of Adsense and affiliate niche sites. Those will always be there to make me a nice residual monthly income. But they rely very heavily on Google rankings.

    And I'm sick of worrying and tweaking and being under the threat of the next Google change. In other words, those are good income streams, but they should not be anyone's SOLE source of online income. It's too shaky a foundation.

    Hope this helps some of you who are floundering and wondering what direction to take things.

    John
    Awesome post John! This is exactly what I am working on and I think it's probably the best way to go. I hate having to depend on someone else to make my business successful. I think Google has way too much power anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author mnonline
    Great tips. Waiting for google traffic will not work for most of us. Search engine too competitive. We need to go a different route. It not worth relying on google only since google can drop our rank any time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe118
    Absolutely right on the money, Zeus. The only way to have a reliable income is if you don't need to rely on other parties for your income
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      If you rely on Youtube your still working to rank high with Google since G owns YT.

      Still need to optimize the video page or make the video viral.

      You'll always rely on someone else for traffic unless you buy the list (not a good choice).
      It's not about making one video and trying to get it ranked. It's about having a YouTube channel full of good, on-topic videos with plenty of subscribers. Maybe that idea has eluded you in the past, but that's the way to work YouTube - not treating it as just a visual version of Google. You're stuck in the SEO box. Come on out and breathe some fresher air!

      And your last sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Buy what list? I'm talking about creating your own list. There isn't a list anyone could buy that would match the effectiveness of one you build yourself, with members who grow to trust you because of how you interact with them.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          I'm happy inside my box, lol.

          Actually I get about 50% of my traffic from forums.

          Being a Mod. helps build trust.



          PPC, etc...
          So, you get 50% of your traffic from forums. That's great! You're not relying on Google rankings of your own pages for that. That's getting outside of the SEO "box." Exactly what I'm on about. And PPC is just exchanging a reliance on organic search traffic for a reliance on paid search traffic. With quality scores and Google's infamous "witch hunt" of affiliate sites, you've also exchanged the risk of waking up to the loss of that traffic in place of the risk of losing your organic rankings.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin AKA Hubcap
            Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

            And PPC is just exchanging a reliance on organic search traffic for a reliance on paid search traffic. With quality scores and Google's infamous "witch hunt" of affiliate sites, you've also exchanged the risk of waking up to the loss of that traffic in place of the risk of losing your organic rankings.
            Valid point but Google isn't the only player in this game. Like you said expand beyond Google. Think Yahoo, Bing, Pulse 360, AOL, paid ads on individual sites.

            Also, I know it's not as sexy as on line advertising but space ads in periodicals targeting your niche do work and have been a consistent source of income.
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          • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
            Stellar post! I just did a blog post this morning on how SEO and search engine traffic are simply starting points to building a customer base...i.e. a list that you consistently feed quality information to.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    John,

    I distinctly remember a debate you and I had in Friday Nite Chat a while back about this very topic, wherein you were far more adamant about article marketing and SEO as a business model than product development and info products.

    So does this mean you're conceding the debate now?

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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      John,

      I distinctly remember a debate you and I had in Friday Nite Chat a while back about this very topic, wherein you were far more adamant about article marketing and SEO as a business model than product development and info products.

      So does this mean you're conceding the debate now?

      Michael, I think you must have just skimmed my OP. Next time, read it in full, pal:

      "You can get people to join your list by using articles on sites like EZA and ArticlesBase."

      That's from about the middle of the OP up above. So, yeah, clearly I haven't abandoned the idea of using article marketing. I get a nice flow of pre-sold, targeted visitors from articles (and video marketing sources) to my squeeze pages. Those are some of the best list subscribers you'll ever have.

      And I haven't abandoned SEO, either. I said in my OP or at least one of the replies that I still rely on and am happy to get the monthly income from all my sites that have Adsense and/or affiliate links on them. They are fed by organic search traffic.

      I think the debate we had was about IM as a niche vs. all the other markets and niches, both online and offline. I realize you're a millionaire (or close to it) from means other than your online work. I respect that. But you can earn a very nice living purely working online. This thread is about how I'm trying to be proactive and set up a firmer foundation for my own little business by not relying to such a high degree on any one source of traffic and on just one or two income streams. I'm still talking about purely online methods, though.

      If you'd like to enlighten us all about some of your experience making big money doing things other ways, it would be a great addition to this thread. I'm all about learning from people who have been very successful doing things I haven't.

      John
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    Well I think it's great that you're diversifying. And of course, I wish great success for you.

    And yes, we did also debate IM vs. other markets - but we also specifically debated products and product sales vs. article marketing/affiliate marketing. This was tied to an extensive discussion about guru hatred as well... Kern, et al... wherein you, and to be fair several others as well, were very adamant about article marketing vs. product launches and sales.

    As for contributing actual moneymaking advice to your topic, I don't know anything about making any money. I'm just a stupid pig farmer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      Well I think it's great that you're diversifying. And of course, I wish great success for you.

      And yes, we did also debate IM vs. other markets - but we also specifically debated products and product sales vs. article marketing/affiliate marketing. This was tied to an extensive discussion about guru hatred as well... Kern, et al... wherein you, and to be fair several others as well, were very adamant about article marketing vs. product launches and sales.

      As for contributing actual moneymaking advice to your topic, I don't know anything about making any money. I'm just a stupid pig farmer.
      Actually, you're wrong. You and I never debated the merits of info product creation vs. article marketing or aff. marketing. At least, not in any way where I might have even hinted that product creation/sales was a bad way to go. You've confused me with someone else. Easy to do when there are so many discussions going on at once in FNC. I've been selling info products online for over a year, and I've only been going to FNC for a few months. Obviously, I understood the merits of creating products and selling them before you and I ever met. No need to apologize. Mistakes happen.

      Re: anything I have said about people like Kern, I was very careful to stipulate that my only problem with them was when they "became" different people. Some of them have done that. I don't hate them. I just find it amusing when they change how they look and even their personalities.

      Did my playful jabs about your pig farming upset you? If so, I sincerely apologize. You volunteered that info in FNC and you seemed to enjoy the banter about it. No offense was ever intended, not in the slightest way. I grew up in farm country.
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

        Actually, you're wrong. You and I never debated the merits of info product creation vs. article marketing or aff. marketing. At least, not in any way where I might have even hinted that product creation/sales was a bad way to go. You've confused me with someone else. Easy to do when there are so many discussions going on at once in FNC. I've been selling info products online for over a year, and I've only been going to FNC for a few months. Obviously, I understood the merits of creating products and selling them before you and I ever met. No need to apologize. Mistakes happen.

        Re: anything I have said about people like Kern, I was very careful to stipulate that my only problem with them was when they "became" different people. Some of them have done that. I don't hate them. I just find it amusing when they change how they look and even their personalities.

        Did my playful jabs about your pig farming upset you? If so, I sincerely apologize. You volunteered that info in FNC and you seemed to enjoy the banter about it. No offense was ever intended, not in the slightest way. I grew up in farm country.

        Well if I am mistaking you for someone else, my apologies - I'll still make it right even if you insist otherwise. You're right, there are a lot of conversations going on simultaneously and it's easy to get derailed from one person to the next.

        LOL... not offended in the least about my farm. If the entire world goes to hell in a handbasket around me, I'll be holding out for quite some time in relative comfort.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post


        Re: anything I have said about people like Kern, I was very careful to stipulate that my only problem with them was when they "became" different people. Some of them have done that. I don't hate them. I just find it amusing when they change how they look and even their personalities.

        Great post John. I wouldn't expect otherwise from a fellow baldy.

        I just wanted to briefly touch on what you said to Michael in regards to people changing. I am hoping we all change and hopefully for the better.

        We learn as we go and that will change us which doesn't have to be a bad thing.

        Some people say that you shaved your head to be successful.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Great post John. I wouldn't expect otherwise from a fellow baldy.

          I just wanted to briefly touch on what you said to Michael in regards to people changing. I am hoping we all change and hopefully for the better.

          We learn as we go and that will change us which doesn't have to be a bad thing.

          Some people say that you shaved your head to be successful.
          I am NOT shaving my head...
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          • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I am NOT shaving my head...
            That's probably a good thing for the universe's existence, Wags. It strains the very laws of nature to have both Thomas and myself on the same planet in the same solar system. If you added yourself, the results could start a chain reaction akin to the Big Bang. Best if you remain "haired."
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            • Profile picture of the author scarpet1
              The whole world seems to be saying list marketing is the way to go. My question is does anybody open any of their emails anymore? I get 50 or more per day from lists that I signed up for that I never open.

              I think writing a great email teaser is now absolutely required for your list to work at all.

              Eugene
              Signature
              Quote" The goal of education is to replace an empty mind with an open mind."Malcolm Forbes

              Straight Talk Wireless
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by scarpet1 View Post

                The whole world seems to be saying list marketing is the way to go. My question is does anybody open any of their emails anymore? I get 50 or more per day from lists that I signed up for that I never open.
                There are about a half-dozen people whose emails I always open.

                The rest, I look for a truly interesting subject line.

                If it's only interesting because it's obviously misleading and scammy, I open it to unsubscribe.
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
                Originally Posted by scarpet1 View Post

                The whole world seems to be saying list marketing is the way to go. My question is does anybody open any of their emails anymore? I get 50 or more per day from lists that I signed up for that I never open.

                I think writing a great email teaser is now absolutely required for your list to work at all.

                Eugene
                In a word: RELATIONSHIP.

                Your goal as a list marketer should be to get as many members of your list to equate your name with trust and value as possible. Once that happens, you get the opens just because your name is in the 'From' line.

                I keep reading experienced list marketers talking about having a goal to get at least $1/month per subscriber. Good for them! My goal is to get as many people on my list as possible to start thinking of me as a provider of useful information, amazing value, and trustworthiness beyond reproach.

                The money will take care of itself if I do it right.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

                  The money will take care of itself if I do it right.
                  QFT.

                  The single most difficult part of running a business is that real success will only happen when it doesn't matter to you.

                  If you're desperate and frantic, people can smell it on you, and you won't get what you want - even if you try with both hands.

                  You have to be relaxed, and calm, and unattached to the outcome. And then things just happen.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Ben Holmes
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            I am NOT shaving my head...
            My father, who is bald - likes to say that God gave every man the same amount of hormones... and if you want to use yours to grow hair, more power to you...
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      And yes, we did also debate IM vs. other markets - but we also specifically debated products and product sales vs. article marketing/affiliate marketing. This was tied to an extensive discussion about guru hatred as well... Kern, et al... wherein you, and to be fair several others as well, were very adamant about article marketing vs. product launches and sales.
      Michael, I have only a vague recollection of this discussion... and given my usual state on the FNC, that's not surprising... but as I recall John's position was basically this.

      1. The IM market is the "obvious" niche for everyone who starts doing IM, but it is rarely the niche where they will become successful.

      2. Affiliate marketing is every bit as effective as product creation when done right; product creation is not a superior model.

      3. The guru-style product launch is not within the grasp of the average IMer, nor is it the way the average successful IMer makes his living.

      My position on these things is very similar... which is why John and I have been working on some stuff together. There's a lot of focus on being where the successful IMers are, but not enough on getting there.

      Look at your own journey. Think about what you do today. Could you have woken up the day you started your business and just started doing that immediately?

      Of course not. It took a lot of time, effort, and energy to get your business to the point it is now. And in the process, you didn't move as fast as you could have - so you could help some people get there faster. But you can't just tell people what you do today and expect them to jump out of bed tomorrow and start doing it.

      The gurus constantly act like you can do this, not because they are trying to fool people or trick them, but because that's what they do. They jump out of bed every day and do what they do and it works. On some level, most of them feel like everyone else on the planet could do the same thing... and not all of them have figured out that maybe, just maybe, it will take a little work beforehand.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Michael, I have only a vague recollection of this discussion... and given my usual state on the FNC, that's not surprising... but as I recall John's position was basically this.

        1. The IM market is the "obvious" niche for everyone who starts doing IM, but it is rarely the niche where they will become successful.

        2. Affiliate marketing is every bit as effective as product creation when done right; product creation is not a superior model.

        3. The guru-style product launch is not within the grasp of the average IMer, nor is it the way the average successful IMer makes his living.

        My position on these things is very similar... which is why John and I have been working on some stuff together. There's a lot of focus on being where the successful IMers are, but not enough on getting there.

        Look at your own journey. Think about what you do today. Could you have woken up the day you started your business and just started doing that immediately?

        Of course not. It took a lot of time, effort, and energy to get your business to the point it is now. And in the process, you didn't move as fast as you could have - so you could help some people get there faster. But you can't just tell people what you do today and expect them to jump out of bed tomorrow and start doing it.

        The gurus constantly act like you can do this, not because they are trying to fool people or trick them, but because that's what they do. They jump out of bed every day and do what they do and it works. On some level, most of them feel like everyone else on the planet could do the same thing... and not all of them have figured out that maybe, just maybe, it will take a little work beforehand.

        Caliban, all I can say is...you are my hero.

        You say things in a way that nobody else does and more often than not,
        I agree with you 100%.

        Problem is, too many of us have forgotten what it was like to be stupid.

        I haven't. I remember all the dumb things I did when I first started and
        I realize that some things you just have to learn by getting out there and
        doing it.

        That is why formal education really prepares so few people for success in
        the business world.

        Until you apply it, you just can't understand that it's not that easy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Rankin
    That's why SEO accounts for a % of any real business, not the whole thing. Use search (SEO/PPC), social media, affiliates, and display ads to divide up the pie. Don't rely on one thing to bring home the bacon!
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I'm not particularly enamored with "gurus" in the IM world. In fact, most them are tards, spouting off some repackaged, rehashed mishmash of stuff that second year marketing students at any reputable business school gets drilled on in class daily. And I'm also pretty open about my distaste for the fawning fanboy crap that goes on in the IM/MMO arena because so many people think that "success" is defined as someone that does about as much gross annual sales as an average single McDonald's franchise store. That's gross mind you. I'm not enamored by, nor do I define the pinnacle of business achievement as something remotely close to the garbage that's promulgated in much of the IM world. And I don't think a million per year in sales is particularly noteworthy in any industry. There is an old country junkyard in my county that does three times that in volume. And they're not particularly "busy".

    We just had a pretty lengthy thread about the sustainability of affiliate marketing as a business model, and I tend to lean towards the "no" side of the fence for most people because of the raw math involved. Instead of rehashing those specific arguments, you can go back and read that monster of a topic on your own.

    Now, as far as doing what I do now vs. what I did when I started - well no. But the market evolves as well, so nothing exists in a vacuum. I was successful back then because I figured out how to sell something to enough people for more money than it cost me to deliver. That business fundamental hasn't changed for me.

    Now if someone can do that blogging as an affiliate - spectacularamundo!! Rawk on witcha bad self! I'm 100% behind anyone who can create success in whatever it is that they become successful. You know that about me already.

    But I still hold firm to the belief that one widens the chances of their business success as the originator of the product (or service) that they are delivering to the market. Control is a big part of that.... quality... service... terms... cashflow... et al...

    That being said, I am glad that John is diversifying his own business by adding such things. I believe that will make his (and yours?) business much more likely to succeed in the long run - as you aren't reliant on gaming the search engines for 100% of your sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post


      But I still hold firm to the belief that one widens the chances of their business success as the originator of the product (or service) that they are delivering to the market. Control is a big part of that.... quality... service... terms... cashflow... et al...
      Not to get into THAT debate again but I totally agree with Michael and have said it before myself.

      Not only those listed, by Michael, but the scalability of your business isn't even comparable when looking at products versus affiliate marketing.

      As a product owner, you can have affiliates send you traffic and not rely on Google.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I'm not particularly enamored with "gurus" in the IM world.
      Quoted simply to say "yeah, I pretty much agree with that whole paragraph."

      We just had a pretty lengthy thread about the sustainability of affiliate marketing as a business model, and I tend to lean towards the "no" side of the fence for most people because of the raw math involved.
      According to my math, you'd have to lean toward the "no" side of the fence on product creation, too. The math favours the middleman, who neither creates nor markets the product, but simply connects creators with marketers. You shouldn't actually aspire to be a Clickbank publisher OR a Clickbank affiliate... you should aspire to be Clickbank itself.

      I believe that will make his (and yours?) business much more likely to succeed in the long run - as you aren't reliant on gaming the search engines for 100% of your sales.
      John and I have always been in agreement that "gaming" the search engines is shortsighted and wrongheaded, so the idea that this is where we get any of our sales is flawed.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        According to my math, you'd have to lean toward the "no" side of the fence on product creation, too. The math favours the middleman, who neither creates nor markets the product, but simply connects creators with marketers. You shouldn't actually aspire to be a Clickbank publisher OR a Clickbank affiliate... you should aspire to be Clickbank itself.
        This:

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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          This
          Yeah, pretty much that.

          There are, however, a couple of things Clickbank and their like are missing.

          It's to the middleman's advantage both that the product creator get a lot of affiliates, and that the affiliates get a lot of sales.

          Because that's your marketing.

          You can look at marketplaces like this all day, whether as a publisher or as an affiliate, and you just sit there scratching your head. Then you come to a forum like this.

          And there, you say "does anyone have any experience with ________?" and people a lot like you come out and say "I was on _________ and this happened."

          So it's really, REALLY important that you guide people toward creating good products and doing good marketing. And one of the best ways to do that is through transparency.

          When I look at a product to promote as an affiliate, I want to know "how many other affiliates are there?" and "how many of them are making sales?" and "how many sales are being made?" and "how many sales is the publisher making himself?" - I want history and graphs and charts.

          Something funky and weird like "gravity" that has to be deciphered and explained is just the wrong way to do things.

          You want your customers, on both sides of the process, to make good decisions. You want them to be smart. You want them to be successful. You do not want them confused and frustrated.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Simon Ashari
    Thanks for the post. While I wouldn't ignore google entirely, it is definitely a good idea to generate traffic though other means.

    What was a particularly good point was the mindset that what we know is valuable to others a few steps below us.

    Regards

    -Simon
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  • Profile picture of the author morsh
    wow very nice post, thanks for excellent post
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