Branding: Will it Ever Be as Important as SEO?

by Lauryn
40 replies
Okay, so I'm in a Brand Development class at school, and as I think about the growth of internet marketing, it seems that branding your sites is going to be another important aspect of building trust and authority in your readers and visitors - almost as important as SEO.

Do you think that - even for niche blogs that won't require your "identity" to be revealed - that branding your site for more trust and authority will be important in the grand scheme as the search engines continue to add more and more IMers?
#branding #important #seo
  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

    branding your sites is going to be another important aspect of building trust and authority in your readers and visitors - almost as important as SEO.
    SEO doesn't build trust and authority. All it builds is SERPs.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      It depends on if you build a solid brand, with lots of exposure...

      For some companies, branding will always outperform SEO...

      And for those companies that have not yet learned how to utilize branding to its fullest potential, SEO is just one of the many traffic generation tools available...
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    • Profile picture of the author benzo1
      Branding is more important than SEO.

      Google is leaning toward rewarding brands..just search for 'sky' in google uk. the top 8 results are for sky digital.

      I work in the affiliate world and trust me all serious affiliates are working on branding now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Compton
      Branding is way more important than SEO for infoproduct creation, but less important for adsense snipers, but still pretty important...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Will Compton View Post

        Branding is way more important than SEO for infoproduct creation, but less important for adsense snipers, but still pretty important...
        Then can I ask why you use a keyword based domain name in your sig instead of a branding-friendly domain name?

        I have the same question of all those that say branding is more important, but then use keyword based domain names? Why aren't you using more brandable domain names?
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Then can I ask why you use a keyword based domain name in your sig instead of a branding-friendly domain name?
          Does he?

          Because, you know, I don't normally associate "Zero Down" with membership sites. I associate it with real estate. I also associate it with Carlton Sheets, investment, liquidity, and ease of implementation.

          I think that's something of a brand. I think he's leveraging the associations of a term in one industry, and bringing them into another one. I can see "Zero Down" becoming a term that means something in the IM field, and that is associated clearly with Will. I can see him releasing other products along the lines of "Zero Down WordPress" or "Zero Down Niche Marketing" - and I can see the phrase being readily associated with the abbreviation "ZD" over time.

          I honestly don't see "Zero Down Membership" being an SEO keyword title.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Does he?

            Because, you know, I don't normally associate "Zero Down" with membership sites. I associate it with real estate. I also associate it with Carlton Sheets, investment, liquidity, and ease of implementation.

            I think that's something of a brand. I think he's leveraging the associations of a term in one industry, and bringing them into another one. I can see "Zero Down" becoming a term that means something in the IM field, and that is associated clearly with Will. I can see him releasing other products along the lines of "Zero Down WordPress" or "Zero Down Niche Marketing" - and I can see the phrase being readily associated with the abbreviation "ZD" over time.

            I honestly don't see "Zero Down Membership" being an SEO keyword title.
            I do see "zero down" as a keyword phrase. It's actually a very competitive keyword. Most branding domains wouldn't contain a keyword that could be used by many other competitors that could cause confusion as to who owned the brand.

            ZeroDownMembership.com sure isn't a domain like Google.com, Yahoo.com, hotbot.com, Bing.com or darklock.com.

            And do you honestly see ZeroDownMembership.com as a good domain name for branding?

            I don't, as it doesn't follow any of the 11 guidelines (that I can remember) presented by in "The 11 Immutable Laws of Internet Branding"by Al Ries
            Amazon.com: The 11 Immutable Laws of Internet...Amazon.com: The 11 Immutable Laws of Internet...

            Al Ries is the guy that popularized "positioning", which is taught in every marketing class, which I'm sure you know.

            BTW, darklock.com does fit a few of Ries' concepts of a good, brandable domain, and it's obvious you are branding youself and not using a keyword.

            Just for fun, darklock.com is two four-letter words, each ending with the same sound, making it easier to remember.

            It is also a unique name that won't get lost in a bunch of other "typical" IM related keyword-based domain names.

            And, I'm actually not being critical when I asked about why they didn't use more brandable domain names, instead of keyword based domain names? I feel it's a legit question.

            PS..."ZD" is already branded in my mind as Ziff-Davis.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              I do see "zero down" as a keyword phrase. It's actually a very competitive keyword. Most branding domains wouldn't contain a keyword that could be used by many other competitors that could cause confusion as to who owned the brand.
              The canonical example is Apple computers... Apple records. Both very strong brands in their own fields, and both branded with nothing more than a single common English word.

              I think there's a grey area where simple words and phrases may become brands, and I think that area begins when a particular word or phrase has no particular association with that area of industry.

              The phrase "cold forged" means something in the realm of metalworking, so for a steel mill or a knife manufacturer, it is a keyword phrase and not a brand. You can't brand "cold forged" in those industries. So a domain like coldforgedbolts.com (not a real domain, just an example) would be a keyword domain, where you would expect to find bolts that have been cold forged from multiple manufacturers.

              However, you can brand it in an unrelated industry: coldforged.com is a graphic artist (his site seems to be down though), coldforged.org is the personal blog of a software developer, and Cold Forged is a registered trademark for military-style clothing. In none of these cases would you expect your commissioned artwork, embedded software, or cargo pants to have actually been cold forged.

              And do you honestly see ZeroDownMembership.com as a good domain name for branding?
              I don't know that I'd call it a good one, because "Zero Down" is a phrase which is heavily associated in my mind with an interminable list of expensive real estate investment courses that suck.

              However, for someone selling membership sites, it's an even worse keyword. When someone is searching for "zero down" on a search engine, I'm willing to lay odds they are not looking to start a membership site.


              BTW, darklock.com does fit a few of Ries' concepts of a good, brandable domain
              That was actually a happy accident.

              When I started my consulting business, my partner and I discussed for quite some time whether our company name should be different, and we kicked around a lot of ideas. Eventually, we broke down and bought a whole bunch of marketing and branding books, which convinced us to just leave the name as it was.

              We were complete freaks about branding and positioning. We actually used to wear shirts with French cuffs, and small black-coated padlocks as cufflinks. If I ever end up on the speaking circuit or something, I'll have to go back to that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      SEO doesn't build trust and authority. All it builds is SERPs.
      I understand that... I guess I didn't clarify my point well enough.
      SEO builds SERPS and that is an important part of getting traffic.
      However, for sustainability in the long term, is branding as important a component to pay attention to as much as SEO?

      You can have an "automatic" blog site that builds traffic or another site that uses mediocre content to convert sales with great SEO and it may do well... but over the course of time, can you see the entire scheme of IM pushing past the point where good SEO is all a site needs to really maintain business? And now sites will need to be informative, credible and trusted as well, not just making it in the SERPS?

      Like a great site with good SEO for SERPS but that also wins in the areas of brand due to good branding and quality strategies? To me, that's what seems to make the most sustainable business.

      Thanks.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

        I understand that... I guess I didn't clarify my point well enough. SEO builds SERPS and that is an important part of getting traffic. However, for sustainability in the long term, is branding as important a component to pay attention to as much as SEO?
        That's more or less the way I put it. There's short and long term positioning for your business, and if you're building a company you'll have forever (e.g. Darklock Communications, in business since 1986), branding is extremely important.

        But an awful lot of IMers aren't building that kind of business. They're building something more like the guy with a table at the flea market. And on Wednesday, you walk up to that guy's table and it's full of butterfly knives and switchblades. Thursday, you walk up, and he's got a bunch of nose puppies. Friday, he's selling cigarette lighters. And he doesn't NEED a brand. In fact, he's got no real way to build one. So he relies on word of mouth about his offer, the same way IMers rely on SERPs to generate traffic.
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        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          That's more or less the way I put it. There's short and long term positioning for your business, and if you're building a company you'll have forever (e.g. Darklock Communications, in business since 1986), branding is extremely important.

          But an awful lot of IMers aren't building that kind of business. They're building something more like the guy with a table at the flea market. And on Wednesday, you walk up to that guy's table and it's full of butterfly knives and switchblades. Thursday, you walk up, and he's got a bunch of nose puppies. Friday, he's selling cigarette lighters. And he doesn't NEED a brand. In fact, he's got no real way to build one. So he relies on word of mouth about his offer, the same way IMers rely on SERPs to generate traffic.
          Lol did you start at 5 years old?! Lol. I would have never guessed since '86!

          And I agree. I guess the good thing is being dedicated to working outside of the "flea market" format so many IMers are interested in. I'm not.

          Thanks for that explanation - it's so on point.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Lauryn View Post

            Lol did you start at 5 years old?! Lol. I would have never guessed since '86!
            I was 16, actually, and I never in a million years thought I could actually get a business licence at that age.

            And I agree. I guess the good thing is being dedicated to working outside of the "flea market" format so many IMers are interested in. I'm not.
            I think both formats work, you just have to know which one you're doing. If your business needs branding, all the SEO in the world won't do any good, and if you try to brand yourself in a week it's just not happening. It's related to the whole "bell curve / black swan" development thing I've talked about before.
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            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Lauryn, here's a couple of things I've seen over time...

            > Many who worship at the SEO altar lose sight of even ad clicks and sales. They chase SERP position for the sake of position, and make sacrifices to the traffic gods. The performance becomes more important than the result.

            As you scan through the forum over time, you'll notice many posts and threads with a common theme. 'I have 147 pages ranked on Google page 1, but I'm not making any money/getting any clicks/getting any traffic, what do I do?'

            Ask them the simplest of questions about the people in their niche markets, and you get back "[insert software name] said this keyword got so many searches per month and it only has this many results when searched in quotes".

            > SERP position is about exposure. Once you get a page ranked on the first page of Google or whatever, you still have to motivate a human being to click on your page rather than the other 10-20 options on a SERP.

            That's where the branding/trust-building comes in.

            I still see search results where the top entry has a title of "Home Page" and a description made up of the button text from their menu. I have to tell you, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me. I'll keep scanning until I find something that does. If you do a good job of combining the SEO factors that go into the title and description with an appeal that leads me to believe you have what I want, you'll get my click even if you aren't #1.
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          • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
            Lauryn, I'm going to preface my response by saying that your question is actually a loaded question IMHO and here's why.

            Branding and SEO are merely vehicles and the Internet is one of the Super Highways in which they drive and maneuver to their various destinations. Every SEO campaign and every branding campaign can be akin to a vehicle delivering a specific product to a specific delivery point, which will in turn increase a company's exposure by increasing them in the SERPs or by further building their brand name or both.

            To ask if branding will ever be important as SEO, is like asking if cars will ever be as important as trucks or vice-a-versa. They are both needed and they both have and serve their purposes; that's why I say that it is a loaded question.

            So I ask you, will a truck ever be important as a car?

            Secondly, when speaking of SEO, there are two distinct phases of SEO; ON Page SEO and OFF Page SEO. So in asking your question, are you referring to ON Page SEO or OFF Page SEO or are you combining the two? If you were singling out ON Page SEO versus branding, then your question may not be as loaded but nevertheless, still loaded.

            Thirdly, some brands are so well established that aggressive Off Page SEO may never be needed. For example, the NFL, the NBA, CNN, Fox News, McDonalds, Walmart, Wendy's, Coca Cola, and etc. Most football fans will never go to any SE to find info on the NFL. When it comes to that type of branding power, people instinctively type "NFL.com" into a browser.

            Conversely, there are companies that were built on SEO but once they acquired the funds, they moved into name brand building on a national and worldwide scale through TV, Radio and Newspapers ads as well as maintaining and beefing up their SEO campaigns.

            Godaddy.com is a great case in point; their brand is literally founded upon on OFF Page SEO that migrated into more traditional methods of advertising to further expand their brand.

            In the final analysis, a smart and savvy businessperson will use both [Branding and SEO] depending on their needs, target markets, objectives, goals and desires.

            Originally Posted by ChrisTew View Post

            Branding has always been more important than SEO.
            What????

            Originally Posted by ChrisTew View Post

            Google is also geared to favor popular sites.
            What???

            I'm in some highly competitive markets in which I out rank popular brands in the SERPs. I out rank their name brands and million dollar budgets using aggressive Off Page SEO. These brand names are unquestionably more popular than my sites in terms of name brand recognition, BUT I still out rank them in the SERPs. When it comes to ONLINE, it's got nothing to do with popularity, it has to do with Off Page SEO.

            Originally Posted by ChrisTew View Post

            SEO is a weapon that the small guy can utilize to grow their brand on a small budget...
            Chris, most MAJOR companies invest millions upon millions of dollars into SEO everyday. SEO has become an integral part of their branding strategy. If SEO was a small guy thing, surely they wouldn't pay SEO companies the mega bucks for both ON Page SEO and OFF Page SEO.

            The important thing to note is that it will never be a question of branding being important as SEO or vice-a-versa anymore than it will be a question of cars being more important than trucks or vice-a-versa.

            As a businessperson you have to know when to use SEO and/or Branding to get the maximum ROI!

            Giles, the Crew Chief
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      SEO doesn't build trust and authority. All it builds is SERPs.
      I disagree. There's been studies that show that users do feel higher ranked pages are more trustworthy, and definetly more "authoritive".

      Also, SEO and PPC can and are being used for branding. A big reason for Google's "relevancy score" which includes click throughs, is because many companies were using AdWords for branding, not click throughs, getting very inexpensive branding at the expense of actual clicks.

      Branding can also help SEO. A well branded name in the top 5 SERPs may get more clicks than non-branded names.

      SERPs also help branding. If your results are coming up for many popular keywords, how is getting your name in front of more eyeballs not branding, even if they don't click?

      Plus, I'd consider "trust and authority" more issues of positioning than branding. Richard Nixon is well "branded" among people of my age group.
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    • Profile picture of the author waqas1
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        The only trust it builds is with the search engines, visitors have no clue how trustworthy your brand or company is based on its results from a search quarry.

        PS: Nice site, consider putting one of your video testimonials on your front page.

        Originally Posted by waqas1 View Post

        I think SEO build trust. It really helps us in many matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    They serve different purposes. The thread title presupposes that SEO is more important, which is not necessarily true.

    If you get most of your customers from search, then yes SEO is more important. But it would be very shortsighted to assume that is what all companies rely upon.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Munch
    Branding has always been more important than SEO. The bulk of successful online companies have very strong brands.

    Google is also geared to favor popular sites.

    SEO is a weapon that the small guy can utilize to grow their brand on a small budget, but to make it big a strong brand is still a bigger deal than SEO in the majority of cases.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
      Originally Posted by benzo1 View Post

      Branding is more important than SEO.

      Google is leaning toward rewarding brands..just search for 'sky' in google uk. the top 8 results are for sky digital.

      I work in the affiliate world and trust me all serious affiliates are working on branding now.
      Thank you benzo. This is the heart of what I was asking - and this is what I am beginning to see. I've always felt that branding is just as important as SEO if you're looking for a long term profit in whatever market you're building in.

      Originally Posted by Will Compton View Post

      Branding is way more important than SEO for infoproduct creation, but less important for adsense snipers...
      Undoubtedly true... I wonder what will happen when adsense sniping is no longer effective.

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      It depends on if you build a solid brand, with lots of exposure...

      For some companies, branding will always outperform SEO...

      And for those companies that have not yet learned how to utilize branding to its fullest potential, SEO is just one of the many traffic generation tools available...
      Agreed :-)

      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      They serve different purposes. The thread title presupposes that SEO is more important, which is not necessarily true.

      If you get most of your customers from search, then yes SEO is more important. But it would be very shortsighted to assume that is what all companies rely upon.
      You're right, it does. And I guess, sometimes it seems that people seem to feel SEO is important as long as all they care about are sales and 'adsense' clicks... and overall I don't think all companies only care about SEO and not the brand. I think that a lot of "anonymous" niche sites (MFA, xFactor - not the way xFactor does it, but how most copycat the original 1 page template types) only care about the SEO in terms of site performance instead of quality. Now that performance and SEO seems like it will no longer be enough, I'm wondering if those sites will begin to work on branding.


      Originally Posted by ChrisTew View Post

      Branding has always been more important than SEO. The bulk of successful online companies have very strong brands.

      Google is also geared to favor popular sites.

      SEO is a weapon that the small guy can utilize to grow their brand on a small budget, but to make it big a strong brand is still a bigger deal than SEO in the majority of cases.
      Thanks Chris. A lot of successful IMers have strong brands as well. Lynn Terry, Pot Pie Girl, Rosalind Gardner, etc.

      I think SEO is a small guy tool - but it's important for everyone, big companies too, even if not as much. However, as Google shifts away from allowing "nonsense" click sites to rank so easily without good substance, I can see that branding will be a major part of making sure that a website maintains it's standings in the SERPS.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
    CD and John, great points! John I am truly in line with you there. I personally can and will click through pages of search results if I feel I need to, in order to get what I want and need, and if your site has an ad that interests me, and I know it will benefit you, I'll click and help you out because 1) it's interesting and 2) you gave me value. I know not everyone is like this... but I know I am LOL.
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    I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.

    Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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  • Profile picture of the author Trivum
    SEO, in the end, is nothing but the "branding" of content.

    Two things are actually becoming one. ... As Google gets better at trying to determine real human intent/trust/etc., they are turning to cues provided by "user interaction" - social media mentions, visits, etc.

    Google's golden egg, in the end, is the idea of "trust," not just subject matter. They've learned that spammers can throw up millions of pages on any subject matter they please. ... So who can you trust? ... That comes down to branding yourself as a source that can be trusted.

    But, Google is still dumb. It is still a machine. So, for example, there could be someone who was completely distrustful on some topic. Maybe they were some type of scammer. If they were notorious, then they would be "branded" as associated with that topic, only in a negative way. ... So if you searched for that topic, this distrustful person would likely come up in your search (be it on Google or elsewhere). Yet when you actually began to look into them, you would easily see they were famous (infamous) for their negative activity.

    Therefore, as far as Google's concerned, it's all good. And in a way, it is. They were "branded" a certain way (by the community, not necessarily by themselves). Because of that branding, you came across them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    SE whosit? That's my feeling these days. We all call each other "Warriors" here, but - and I'm not playing the 'woe is me' card here, I swear - I truly am an old veteran of the freaking trench warfare that is SEO. Not once but twice I lost basically everything from too much of a stubborn reliance on organic SE traffic.

    After the 2nd bout of major "what the hell do I do now???" - I decided it was gonna give me an early heart attack and I ventured out to build myself as a brand. That's how I view branding, even though I know you mean the more traditional definition. But, see, I think in IM it can be a difference maker if you work to brand yourself. It has so many applications. If you build lists, it's "game over" the moment you achieve a status where people on your list actually open your emails and read them based on nothing more than the fact that your name appears in the From window.

    If you sell info products, same deal. Get people to equate your name with super high quality stuff, and it's a done deal. You'll succeed. You'll have branded yourself. And no scars!

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author SolomonHuey
    The effects of properly managed branding are amazing.

    I have customers who join and upgrade at basically all of my sites because they trust me and the brand that I have built. It's very easy to make money when you have a strong brand and are respectful of your long time customers (in other words only release quality and/or innovation).

    Ever buy something because a particular person or company is behind it?
    Ever pay MORE for something because a particular person or company is behind it?

    Yup, that's probably branding at work.

    Solomon Huey
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    It really depends on your goals and business model. If you build sites simply to funnel people to other sites in order to profit meaning your not worried about them coming back or staying on your site, then no, SEO is more important then branding for your situation.

    If your business model involves building sites where your main goal is to sell a product or service but more importantly to get repeat visitors or clients from the traffic you do get, then branding is more important then SEO for your longer term strategy. Even when branding is a higher priority you still want to use SEO, the difference is you'll want make sure that branding dictates what and how you employ various tactics such as SEO in relation to your all your other strategies.

    Basically its important to remember that SEO is not a strategy but a tactic. Therefore how you use SEO is dependent on your business strategy and vision.
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    As of a couple of years ago we get way more traffic for our brand than for any keyword related to our product. In our case branding is a wonderful thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    How important is branding? How powerful is branding?

    Hamburger = McDonald's
    McDonald's = Humburger

    The two words are now synonymous with each other.

    Forum Pirate = CDarklock
    CDarklock = Forum Pirate

    However, branding don't mean jack if you don't have a specific product or service that your brand is identified with.

    So I'd say if given the choice, either or. I'd build a brand over SEO.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      How important is branding? How powerful is branding?

      Hamburger = McDonald's
      McDonald's = Humburger

      The two words are now synonymous with each other.

      Forum Pirate = CDarklock
      CDarklock = Forum Pirate

      However, branding don't mean jack if you don't have a specific product or service that your brand is identified with.

      So I'd say if given the choice, either or. I'd build a brand over SEO.
      I think keenex would be a better example, but this isn't branding, it's positioning.

      Branding is simply how well your brand is remembered. Positioning is what people think about the brand.

      And here's a good editorial taking the side of SEO over brand...Brand isn't sales, it isn't leads and it isn't subcribers:
      SEO versus Branding: Clash of the Titanic Egos - Search Engine Watch (SEW)

      He tells of how a phone company wanted to be branded for "mobile phones" but "cell phone" was better for SEO.

      Brand or customers?

      I'll take customers.

      BTW, I probably own more "brandable" IM domains than most. The domain name in my sig is DomBom.com. The reason I bought it is because it rhymes and repeats letters and isn't "im" related in any way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        Kleenex would be a better example, but branding is not positioning so I have to disagree with your statement.

        The reason why I don't believe branding is about positioning is because branding goes way further then marketing. A customers experience is just one aspect of how your branding is perceived. It goes way beyond your tag line, logo or brochures.

        Branding should saturate all levels of your business and a good brand drives sales.

        In my example I used McDonald's, they have successfully branded themselves as the company who delivers great hamburgers.

        So if some one wants a hamburger and wants to find a place to go and eat one do they type hamburger in the search field in Google or Bing? Absolutely not! They will do one of two things.

        Search for McDonald's or just type in mcdonalds.com bypassing the search quarry all together.

        You ask brand or customers?

        I'll take brand any day and end up with fans who are customers.

        Here's another example of effective branding at work.

        Boss says to employee, please make a xerox copy of this document.

        Why didn't he say, please make a brother copy of this document?

        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        I think keenex would be a better example, but this isn't branding, it's positioning.

        Branding is simply how well your brand is remembered. Positioning is what people think about the brand.

        And here's a good editorial taking the side of SEO over brand...Brand isn't sales, it isn't leads and it isn't subcribers:
        SEO versus Branding: Clash of the Titanic Egos - Search Engine Watch (SEW)

        He tells of how a phone company wanted to be branded for "mobile phones" but "cell phone" was better for SEO.

        Brand or customers?

        I'll take customers.

        BTW, I probably own more "brandable" IM domains than most. The domain name in my sig is DomBom.com. The reason I bought it is because it rhymes and repeats letters and isn't "im" related in any way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

          Kleenex would be a better example, but branding is not positioning so I have to disagree with your statement.

          The reason why I don't believe branding is about positioning is because branding goes way further then marketing. A customers experience is just one aspect of how your branding is perceived. It goes way beyond your tag line, logo or brochures.

          Branding should saturate all levels of your business and a good brand drives sales.

          In my example I used McDonald's, they have successfully branded themselves as the company who delivers great hamburgers.

          So if some one wants a hamburger and wants to find a place to go and eat one do they type hamburger in the search field in Google or Bing? Absolutely not! They will do one of two things.

          Search for McDonald's or just type in mcdonalds.com bypassing the search quarry all together.

          You ask brand or customers?

          I'll take brand any day and end up with fans who are customers.

          Here's another example of effective branding at work.

          Boss says to employee, please make a xerox copy of this document.

          Why didn't he say, please make a brother copy of this document?
          Again, you are confusing positioning with branding. Every example you just listed is POSITIONING, not BRANDING.

          Branding: Coke-A-Cola has the most recongnizable brand in the World. People know it.

          Reality: Something like 22 colas beat or tied both Pepsi and Coke in independant taste tests.

          Positioning: It doesn't matter that people prefer other colas to Coke. The only thing that matters is that they THINK they like Coke better than the 20+ other colas.

          Do you think Coke release New Coke without taste testing first? They did a lot of taste testing. People liked New Coke better than old Coke.

          But "old" Coke was POSITIONED in people's minds as tasting better. The taste tests didn't matter. Coke underestimated it's own position in the market.

          And your example of "xerox" is a perfect example of positioning, not branding, as is my example of klennex, as is people saying "google it" instead of "search for it".

          Which is why when everyone else on a old Warrior thread said that when Yahoo dropped Google as it's SERP provider, I was the only one that said it wouldn't affect Google at all, and that's because it had already positioned itself as THE search. I based my entire opinion on the fact that people were saying "google it". Hard to beat the type of free advertising good positioning can bring.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
            Well we are going to have to just move on because I disagree with you and it makes no sense to continue discussing it. :rolleyes:

            Excuse me while I click my own sig link!

            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Again, you are confusing positioning with branding. Every example you just listed is POSITIONING, not BRANDING.

            Branding: Coke-A-Cola has the most recongnizable brand in the World. People know it.

            Reality: Something like 22 colas beat or tied both Pepsi and Coke in independant taste tests.

            Positioning: It doesn't matter that people prefer other colas to Coke. The only thing that matters is that they THINK they like Coke better than the 20+ other colas.

            Do you think Coke release New Coke without taste testing first? They did a lot of taste testing. People liked New Coke better than old Coke.

            But "old" Coke was POSITIONED in people's minds as tasting better. The taste tests didn't matter. Coke underestimated it's own position in the market.

            And your example of "xerox" is a perfect example of positioning, not branding, as is my example of klennex, as is people saying "google it" instead of "search for it".

            Which is why when everyone else on a old Warrior thread said that when Yahoo dropped Google as it's SERP provider, I was the only one that said it wouldn't affect Google at all, and that's because it had already positioned itself as THE search. I based my entire opinion on the fact that people were saying "google it". Hard to beat the type of free advertising good positioning can bring.
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          • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
            Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

            Again, you are confusing positioning with branding. Every example you just listed is POSITIONING, not BRANDING.

            Branding: Coke-A-Cola has the most recongnizable brand in the World. People know it.

            Reality: Something like 22 colas beat or tied both Pepsi and Coke in independant taste tests.

            Positioning: It doesn't matter that people prefer other colas to Coke. The only thing that matters is that they THINK they like Coke better than the 20+ other colas.

            Do you think Coke release New Coke without taste testing first? They did a lot of taste testing. People liked New Coke better than old Coke.

            But "old" Coke was POSITIONED in people's minds as tasting better. The taste tests didn't matter. Coke underestimated it's own position in the market.

            And your example of "xerox" is a perfect example of positioning, not branding, as is my example of klennex, as is people saying "google it" instead of "search for it".

            Which is why when everyone else on a old Warrior thread said that when Yahoo dropped Google as it's SERP provider, I was the only one that said it wouldn't affect Google at all, and that's because it had already positioned itself as THE search. I based my entire opinion on the fact that people were saying "google it". Hard to beat the type of free advertising good positioning can bring.
            This is an interesting point you make. Your explanations of branding, positioning and reality in terms of marketing are pretty thorough, because now I have a better understanding of the differences between brand and position.

            In your mind is positioning an important aspect for the future of internet marketing the way some would say SEO is?
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I think for a lot of internet marketers, branding is not at the top of the list of most important things.

    Important things:

    1. Direct, targeted traffic to your site
    2. Conversion rate
    3. List Building

    I do not even think about branding for a lot of my sites. I'm not saying it's important, but I think in generating sales from websites I should be more concerned about direct traffic and sales.

    In fact, doing things like list building is a part of branding, as you build trust with your customers so they trust your "brand."

    But branding is not really the most important aspect of this business, just a part of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author misterhu
    I agree. Branding is more important. In fact, it’s concept has been around even before SEO arrived in the market. You have to keep this in mind once your business or blog starts to pick up followers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Then can I ask why you use a keyword based domain name in your sig instead of a branding-friendly domain name?

      I have the same question of all those that say branding is more important, but then use keyword based domain names? Why aren't you using more brandable domain names?
      Kurt, where I'm from that's called being a hypocrite!!!

      I'm just saying...

      Giles, the Crew Chief
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  • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
    I'm in the middle of schoolwork but this thread has definitely gained some steam --- and good steam. LOL as long as it doesn't vanish before I come back to read this all --- and THANKS IN ADVANCE!!! --- I'm fine with it!!
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    I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.

    Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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  • Profile picture of the author wenzel777
    Both are troublesome beasts. SEO brings short-term results for some and long-term results for others. However, branding...even when done initially...is always done with the purpose of creating long-term identity and awareness.

    If I had to choose which had more leverage, I think it would depend entirely on the situation and the individual's desired results.

    And CDarklock...brilliant flea market analogy. : )
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  • Profile picture of the author Landis
    I dont know how you can really compare them on an apple to apple level. SEO allows for people searching for certain terms to find your website. Than its up to how you brand yourself that will keep them coming back and associating your brand with whatever they were searching. If all you did was focus on branding, you're missing out on a great source of targeted traffic. SEO can be used to put your brand high up in the SERPS...branding on its own doesnt do anything without a marketing effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Here's an example of marketers and their branding being boneheads when it comes to SEO.

    Ask any old-school marketer about the use of the word "cheap". None of them want that word associated with their brand.

    But, don't tell a good SEOer not to use "cheap" in their keyword selection.

    Why not? Because the word "cheap" is a very powerful "psycho-graphic" keyword that tells us exactly what the searcher is thinking at the EXACT time of their search. And that person is telling us they are shopping for price, and only someone looking to buy is concerned about the price.

    People looking for "free" are looking for free stuff. People looking for "info" and looking for info. People looking for "cheap" are looking to buy.

    Let the "branders" worry about how they look being associated with the word "cheap". The SEOers are more worried about making a sale and not worried about the brand and have no problem with the word cheap.

    Sure, brand is important, but not when it interferes with sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Ask any old-school marketer about the use of the word "cheap". None of them want that word associated with their brand.
      As someone who remembers Ziff-Davis, I'm sure you recall the company "Dirt Cheap Drives."

      Is that a brand or a keyword?

      Because my thinking leads me to say it's a brand. However, it's also a keyword phrase. How do you draw the line?
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