My Failed Experiment And Why I Don't Depend On Affiliates

[Steven Wagenheim]

Thanks all. I get it. I mean I REALLY get it.

I know what I have to do.

Okay, I'm going to work on my first "Real" product suitable for affiliates for
2009. I know what I have to do and I'm going to do it.

Enough talk...time to get serious if I don't want to do all the work myself
the rest of my life.

I just need somebody who's gone the whole 9 yards to give me a rough idea
of what kind of budget I'm going to need to get this done. What are we
looking at? 10K, 20K, what?

Thanks.

[Nick Brighton]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

but if yous saw the top prize for this contest, you would have jumped all overit I'm sure. It was more than generous.

Steve, I don't think affiliates are interested in trampolines for prizes, but perhaps
I am out of the loop.

;-)

[steve m]

[quote=Mike Benkovich;243717]Fair Enough... Please take this as constructive criticism...



But ugly pages sell, its all about the copy blah blah blah. For affiliates it isnt. If I come across a boring bland sales page I'm not even going to read the copy, ill click away and find a professional looking website WITH good sales copy.

Can some one please show me the differance between a bad sales page and a good one?

thanks

Steve M

[Nicola Lane]

Steven,

You don't need a new house - you just need to update the wallpaper in the existing one!

If you really want to launch a new product with all the bells and whistles possible - and spend a small fortune! Then you can go for it.

But your existing products are great - you just need to do a little redecorating and maybe add a new kitchen.

[deverell]

I got your email Steve. But it was on a day I got 25 others as well. Put it on the backburner and forgot all about it. I only remember one, did you send more out?

Like was mentioned earlier in the thread. My first thought was you have people selling hundreds, I'll never sell a hundred. never win any contest

If you had sent me another email every week about your affiliate program, it is quite likely I would have gotten around to it and added your products to my mix. You gotta sell me on it, make it easy with good tools and push us. We are very stubborn and up to our necks in work, ideas and not to mention the next new thing to learn.

Keep telling me how well they convert, how to market it easily, and how much money others are making(could make). Multiple contacts...we are your customers, a weekly affiliate program email wouldn't bother me. Since I started promoting MOM, Travis has been sending me a constant stream of tips, tools and ideas for promoting it. It's starting to seem like too much some weeks. Feels like every few days but he gives some good ideas so I still read them.

I know it adds to a merchants workload but it also keeps me happily promoting his product.

One more biggie; Don't take it as you or your products. A lot of people don't really like promoting make money products.

[flnz400]

Why not just pick one at a time and work with it until it's golden? Spend 2k per site.

My Secret Articles:

Get Karl to do a new site- 500 (fresh product images for sure)
Get someone to do a rewrite or go over the copy- 500-1500

Promote like hell. Move on the next.

[Paul M]

Everyone else has pretty much covered everything in this thread so far, I will just
add my 2 cents.

First off I agree with everyone else.....you've made a bit of a name for yourself so
far, now it's time to turn your name into a brand of it's own. You need to upgrade
your sales pages and bring them into 2009 with a bang. I say carry on using you
name as your brand because you're already fairly established.

I also agree a re-launch would be a good idea but probably one product at a time.
You then need to call on your network of friends and there friends to help you
promote your new launch and build up a buzz. Maybe you could update all your
products and call them product XYZ 2.0

You only really need a few decent size JV partners to shoot you up the clickbank
ranks and the rest will gather momentum. I am sure you wouldn't have a problem
getting well known JV's if you personally contacted them a few weeks/months in
advance. You could also consider having a pre-launch period to collect prospects
on an early bird list who are notified first before everyone else.

Then, arm your affiliates with , banners, auto-responder pre-launch series, solo ads,
solo email ads, PPC ads, keyword lists, graphics etc. Make a dedicated affiliate page
with it's own mini sales letter and access to all the tools. Make personal contact
with yourself possible for all your affiliate so they feel supported.

Provide decent well tested conversion rates and keep your affiliate updated daily
with maybe new tips and tools to help build there excitement about your new launch.
Your looking to build a buzz with your affiliates just as much as you are with your prospects.

Plaster your affiliate program everywhere, the warrior forum, classified ads, affiliate
directories, social bookmarking sites, forum sig and contact your marketing
friends personally with a private invitation far in advance and maybe a
slightly higher commission if possible.

All of the above is just my opinion

-paul

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by p1a1u1l1

Everyone else has pretty much covered everything in this thread so far, I will just
add my 2 cents.

First off I agree with everyone else.....you've made a bit of a name for yourself so
far, now it's time to turn your name into a brand of it's own. You need to upgrade
your sales pages and bring them into 2009 with a bang. I say carry on using you
name as your brand because you're already fairly established.

I also agree a re-launch would be a good idea but probably one product at a time.
You then need to call on your network of friends and there friends to help you
promote your new launch and build up a buzz. Maybe you could update all your
products and call them product XYZ 2.0

You only really need a few decent size JV partners to shoot you up the clickbank
ranks and the rest will gather momentum. I am sure you wouldn't have a problem
getting well known JV's if you personally contacted them a few weeks/months in
advance. You could also consider having a pre-launch period to collect prospects
on an early bird list who are notified first before everyone else.

Then, arm your affiliates with , banners, auto-responder pre-launch series, solo ads,
solo email ads, PPC ads, keyword lists, graphics etc. Make a dedicated affiliate page
with it's own mini sales letter and access to all the tools. Make personal contact
with yourself possible for all your affiliate so they feel supported.

Provide decent well tested conversion rates and keep your affiliate updated daily
with maybe new tips and tools to help build there excitement about your new launch.
Your looking to build a buzz with your affiliates just as much as you are with your prospects.

Plaster your affiliate program everywhere, the warrior forum, classified ads, affiliate
directories, social bookmarking sites, forum sig and contact your marketing
friends personally with a private invitation far in advance and maybe a
slightly higher commission if possible.

All of the above is just my opinion

-paul

Thanks Paul. My head is spinning from all that, but I get it.

[lexilexi]

Steven,

First I think it's brilliant that you opened up and took the courage to discuss something that didn't work. Many people are afraid to do this - and I think your approach is one that will lead to success.

I think the best way to approach ventures and ideas is to not become personally attached to them. You try something, and if it doesn't work, oh well, you see what you can learn from it and try something else.

I think the thing has pretty much been stated already - you can't turn a subscriber into a successful affiliate overnight.

The good news is, you're only one step away from success by the sound of things.

The chain snapped at the weak link but most of the links were good. The product obviously converts if one person was able to sell over 100 per month.

Is it possible to reach this person and find out what techniques they were using to achieve sales?

Also can you get some stats from them? I'd say you're in a good position. You have a system that has proven success, now all you gotta do is find the right team... other successful affiliates who would want to take it on.

[Musika]

But Steven, isn't the first WSO on your sig-line all about affiliate marketing?

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Musika

But Steven, isn't the first WSO on your sig-line all about affiliate marketing?

Yes, it's about affiliate marketing...selling other people's products AS an
affiliate. It's NOT about how to GET affiliates.

They are two completely different animals.

[Musika]

Ok. I understand now.

[warriorprocessing]

customers are not actually good affiliate material in most cases.

warriorprocessing.com Merchant account with free authorize.net

[Melanie Bremner]

wow. quite the commentary here. I was thinking of starting an affiliate program for my products but now I have more concerns than I did yesterday. Yesterday I thought I just needed to make up the promo tools somehow. Now, I realize that finding affiliates might be more of an issue. Thanks for all the good tips and advice here though.
Steven, I am sorry to hear about the bad luck. At least some of the 8 came on here to explain to you why they didn't. You can have some understanding now instead of speculating and allowing frustration to fuel your imagination.
I am sure the next time you want to venture into this, you will have better luck with more affiliates who will produce.

Maybe you should try to have the best of both worlds...

You admit to being in somewhat of a comfort zone with what you've been doing. You have a system that works for you and it's proven to bring in a steady income for you.

I think that a lot of the criticism here is valid as to why it may be hard to recruit affiliates for your product.

Maybe you should continue to do what's been working for you and in the meantime create a brand new product, with a more up-to-date sales page that affiliates may be more willing to promote.

Considering how easy it is for you to crank out quality content, I'm sure that you won't have a problem banging out a new product overnight.

[chris_surfrider]

Generating massive results from affiliate marketing will only work if the product itself converts from COLD traffic.

PPC. Or advertising.

Your OWN results don't really mean much. Your clients are buying from you, not just as a result of your offer/copy.

Same goes for list-mailouts when people contact their email lists.

Their trust is what sells it.

But this will always be short-lived.

To see a long-lasting stream of affiliate driven sales, you need strong conversions from what will be their primary traffic source: COLD TRAFFIC

It's very possible to make a VERY good living simply selling to your own list.

But getting the multiplied, compounding effect of traffic from affiliates will only happen if:

a) Your product converts "cold"

AND

b) You target active affiliates who already have traffic

That's why it's not working for you.

There is no other reasonable explanation.

-Chris

[Steve Porcaro]

Steve,

I am a customer of yours and I respect what you do..however contests for affiliates I would never join...that is my personal opinion.

I am not an affiliate of your products...I do totally different things for affiliate marketing....are you a person I like to read about and follow yes


But there are professional affiliates that will never join a contest so I am not sure you have a good baseline

[AndrewCavanagh]

It helps a LOT of you have:

# 1: Very high conversion rates. Or more accurately your affiliates get paid very high value for each visitor they send to your site.

# 2: Very generous commissions.

Again it all hinges on the value your affiliates get for each prospect they send to your site.

The other area you might want to consider is the nature of your products.

Often you may find it hard to get really good affiliates if the products you're selling compete directly with theirs.

If you're selling products that are related but completely non-competitive it's a whole lot easier to get gun affiliates promoting your products without even trying.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Magic Mel]

You had a similar thread in regards to clickbank a few months ago Steven, if you are a great affiliate for Dean, then take a closer look at his product, sales letter, his mini site design and add those elements to your own business.

Affiliates are serious business minded people, they are doing their hard work to drive traffic, some even take the extra step of paying for the traffic that is driven to yout site (ppc).

If you expect for affiliates to do well for you, then make sure to scratch their back as well, give them a landing page that closes the sale, give them a product that does not compete with their own, give them a commission base that can actually earn them a good amount of money while they promote you.

Give them proven tools that they can use to generate sales, look at other successful marketers and see what tools/incentives they offer and try to emulate it and you too can have success.

Affiliates are the reason why you see such high gravity and good amounts of sales on clickbank or other affiliate networks, you just have to work on a few things and you too an have twice the income and less work and affiliates can help you do that.

[Dean Shainin]

Originally Posted by chris_surfrider

Generating massive results from affiliate marketing will only work if the product itself converts from COLD traffic.

PPC. Or advertising.

Your OWN results don't really mean much. Your clients are buying from you, not just as a result of your offer/copy.

Same goes for list-mailouts when people contact their email lists.

Their trust is what sells it.

But this will always be short-lived.

To see a long-lasting stream of affiliate driven sales, you need strong conversions from what will be their primary traffic source: COLD TRAFFIC

It's very possible to make a VERY good living simply selling to your own list.

But getting the multiplied, compounding effect of traffic from affiliates will only happen if:

a) Your product converts "cold"

AND

b) You target active affiliates who already have traffic

That's why it's not working for you.

There is no other reasonable explanation.

-Chris

Hi Steven,

Just about everything has already been said in this thread.

You already got my PM and who's link did I send you?

That's right... Chris from the above post knows what he is talking about.
http://www.jv-web.com

Why?

There are so many mistakes marketers make when doing JV' it's insane. Including myself. I'm still learning. Primarily trying to recruit jv partners without building some sort of relationship first.

It's vital! This is different than the relationship most of us have with our lists.

I know you mentioned me in your original post and I Thank You too.

Fantastic job Steven on your promo to your list. You have plenty of trusting raving fans in your list from the response and praises I received in my inbox in the last 48 hours. However, I'm getting off track here.

Before I launched my product there were only a small handful of partners that I sent private closed door invites simply because they are the handful of people I've worked with before such as helped them do a promo, and or have a long relationship with them in some form or another. I did a test and sent just a couple invites to people I've never worked with that I've been noticing here on the Warrior Forum making leaps and bounds with their marketing efforts and not a single response which was expected.

Also, I did not even consider sending jv invites to my entire list because their is no control of who would sign up when you send something like that out to 1,000's of subscribers. Most would probably be confused and wondering what a JV is, let alone trying to get involved in a jv promo.

Like Chris already said it's vital that your product is tested to convert with a cold market first. I don't think you need to spend $1,000's updating your sales page and graphics. You can get a fantastic mini-site graphics package for about $297. You could probably have the sales copy done for under $1,500 but I'd have to take a look at it to see if it would have to be totally re-written from scratch.

Oh! You can still be honest when writing powerful sales copy. I'll never understand why some marketers think they are too honest to write good sales copy. Just tell your personal story and give them the facts and benefits of what's in it for them and why.

Cheers,
Dean

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by chris_surfrider

Generating massive results from affiliate marketing will only work if the product itself converts from COLD traffic.

PPC. Or advertising.

Your OWN results don't really mean much. Your clients are buying from you, not just as a result of your offer/copy.

Same goes for list-mailouts when people contact their email lists.

Their trust is what sells it.

But this will always be short-lived.

To see a long-lasting stream of affiliate driven sales, you need strong conversions from what will be their primary traffic source: COLD TRAFFIC

It's very possible to make a VERY good living simply selling to your own list.

But getting the multiplied, compounding effect of traffic from affiliates will only happen if:

a) Your product converts "cold"

AND

b) You target active affiliates who already have traffic

That's why it's not working for you.

There is no other reasonable explanation.

-Chris

Thanks Chris...makes absolutely 100% sense.

So I essentially need to come up with a product and copy that will
sell even if my name was Mickey Mouse.

Got it!

On it!

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh

It helps a LOT of you have:

# 1: Very high conversion rates. Or more accurately your affiliates get paid very high value for each visitor they send to your site.

# 2: Very generous commissions.

Again it all hinges on the value your affiliates get for each prospect they send to your site.

The other area you might want to consider is the nature of your products.

Often you may find it hard to get really good affiliates if the products you're selling compete directly with theirs.

If you're selling products that are related but completely non-competitive it's a whole lot easier to get gun affiliates promoting your products without even trying.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

Thanks Andrew. Also makes 100% sense. Between you, Chris and some
others here who really understand affiliate marketing from the perspective
of the merchant (cause I'll sell just about anything that converts because
I know what I'm doing as an affiliate) I'll eventually understand what it
takes to get affiliates as a merchant and have them asking me when my
next product is coming out.

Got it!

On it!

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Magic Mel

You had a similar thread in regards to clickbank a few months ago Steven, if you are a great affiliate for Dean, then take a closer look at his product, sales letter, his mini site design and add those elements to your own business.

Affiliates are serious business minded people, they are doing their hard work to drive traffic, some even take the extra step of paying for the traffic that is driven to yout site (ppc).

If you expect for affiliates to do well for you, then make sure to scratch their back as well, give them a landing page that closes the sale, give them a product that does not compete with their own, give them a commission base that can actually earn them a good amount of money while they promote you.

Give them proven tools that they can use to generate sales, look at other successful marketers and see what tools/incentives they offer and try to emulate it and you too can have success.

Affiliates are the reason why you see such high gravity and good amounts of sales on clickbank or other affiliate networks, you just have to work on a few things and you too an have twice the income and less work and affiliates can help you do that.

Mel, more great advice. Man, you guys are really teaching me stuff
today. I've been so stuck selling my products mode that I never really
took the time to figure out what attracts affiliates. I know what attracts
me, but I'm obviously an odd ball.

Thank you all. This has been a tremendous amount of help.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Dean Shainin

Hi Steven,

Just about everything has already been said in this thread.

You already got my PM and who's link did I send you?

That's right... Chris from the above post knows what he is talking about.
Joint Ventures

Why?

There are so many mistakes marketers make when doing JV' it's insane. Including myself. I'm still learning. Primarily trying to recruit jv partners without building some sort of relationship first.

It's vital! This is different than the relationship most of us have with our lists.

I know you mentioned me in your original post and I Thank You too.

Fantastic job Steven on your promo to your list. You have plenty of trusting raving fans in your list from the response and praises I received in my inbox in the last 48 hours. However, I'm getting off track here.

Before I launched my product there were only a small handful of partners that I sent private closed door invites simply because they are the handful of people I've worked with before such as helped them do a promo, and or have a long relationship with them in some form or another. I did a test and sent just a couple invites to people I've never worked with that I've been noticing here on the Warrior Forum making leaps and bounds with their marketing efforts and not a single response which was expected.

Also, I did not even consider sending jv invites to my entire list because their is no control of who would sign up when you send something like that out to 1,000's of subscribers. Most would probably be confused and wondering what a JV is, let alone trying to get involved in a jv promo.

Like Chris already said it's vital that your product is tested to convert with a cold market first. I don't think you need to spend $1,000's updating your sales page and graphics. You can get a fantastic mini-site graphics package for about $297. You could probably have the sales copy done for under $1,500 but I'd have to take a look at it to see if it would have to be totally re-written from scratch.

Oh! You can still be honest when writing powerful sales copy. I'll never understand why some marketers think they are too honest to write good sales copy. Just tell your personal story and give them the facts and benefits of what's in it for them and why.

Cheers,
Dean

Thanks Dean. I did look at your sales page...It's super sharp. I do
understand, believe it or not. It's because I do understand that this
isn't something I can whip together in a day. This is going to take some
work on my part.

I'd prefer to do this with a brand new product instead of trying to "salvage"
one of my established ones that I personally don't have trouble selling. I
know what I'm going to come out with and I know how. I think I also know
the people who I want to outsource the graphics and copy to. I don't
have the budget for $15,000 for a sales letter simply because that's a
semester of college for my daughter and if heaven forbid the product
bombs (no guarantees in this business) then I'm going to be in a bit of a
pinch.

Thank you all for some great insights into this.

Chris, no wonder everybody has nothing but great things to say about you.
Dean, same thing. I've yet to hear a bad word about either of you guys.

I understand why.

[David_Thompson]

Hey Steven,

one thing that I notice with a couple of your salespages
is the fact that they are just plain text and nothing else
as you well know we are mostly visual people we love
looking at the fancy colors and picture because it paints
a picture we can relate to.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from with this...

That might be one of the reasons affiliate don't really
feel comfortable promoting for you...

Another thing might be you haven't been motivating
them and educating your affiliates on how to best promote
your products, maybe...

Is your affiliate center setup right and it is easy for affiliate
to get tools and links and the simple thing things...

There are a number of factors why people don't promote
products, it could be % or conversion of salespage.

Anyway that's just a few things to think about...

--David

[Nato Guajardo]

How are you converting that many sales with those sites without affiliates?

If you truly are making 6 figures you really should be reinvesting that money back into your business by sprucing up your salespages.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Nato Guajardo

How are you converting that many sales with those sites without affiliates?

If you truly are making 6 figures you really should be reinvesting that money back into your business by sprucing up your salespages.

Because I work my tail off.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Obviously I don;t know exactly what you emailed them...

But as a super affiliate myself...I can tell you that most good affiliates care about *numbers*...

Sure, you can build relationships with people and have them promote your products but I don't think that's what drives the marketplace, especially for products under $100.

In other words, if your product converts...they will find YOU!

So...

If you haven't given up on attracting affiliates...

I'd recommend you:

1) Work on your conversions with the sole focus of the affiliate payout
2) Communicate those metrics to potential affiliates (i.e. "my product is converting at an average of 1.3%, which equals a .57 earnings per click)
[i.e what's in it for them]

Good Luck Big Timer!

P.S. Or you can just say it doesn't work or you "can't" do it. Your choice.