How Do You Reverse a Charge that PayPal Won't Refund?

[jjpmarketing]

I'm just curious if anyone has attempted this before. I have never tried and never had the need to until now. I signed up with boxedart several months ago and after a few days realized that I didn't like it. I forgot to cancel my account and they have charged me again.

The very day I got the charge, I contacted BoxedArt asking for a cancellation and a refund. In fact I did this within 4 hours of the charge. They refused. So naturally since I paid with PayPal I went directly to PayPal and issued a dispute on the charge. PayPal said it wasn't covered under their protection policies or something along those lines.

So now I am stuck with contacting my bank to issue a chargeback. Has anyone ever tried this? And will get issued to the merchant, BoxedArt? Or will it get issued to PayPal and result in my PayPal account getting locked or terminated?

[schabotte]

Chances are good that the bank will give you the chargeback because they value you the user of the credit card more than they value the merchant - the entity they make their money off of. This is simply because if the end consumer loses faith in the credit card system, it collapses.

However their policy probably states that no refunds are issued after a monthly charge is made so expect them to fight the chargeback request. And since you purchased and kept the first month and only cancelled after the 2nd monthly charge was issued, there is a chance they will win.

Of course, with paypal in the middle, there are other issues with chargebacks.

Paypal has several help sections related to chargebacks that you may want to read. Just go to paypal, click on help and type chargeback in the box.

[Jeff B]

If you paid with funds from your Paypal account, then your bank can't help you. If you paid with a bank debit/credit card through paypal but not through your account, then that's a different story.

[SteveJohnson]

Or you can just suck it up and chalk it up to experience. After all, it was YOU who 'forgot to cancel'.

The merchant didn't do anything wrong and doesn't really deserve a chargeback, do they? Especially when it will cost them another $25-$30 to rectify an oversight on your part.

[Jeff B]

Originally Posted by steveinidaho

Or you can just suck it up and chalk it up to experience. After all, it was YOU who 'forgot to cancel'.

The merchant didn't do anything wrong and doesn't really deserve a chargeback, do they? Especially when it will cost them another $25-$30 to rectify an oversight on your part.

Excellent point.

[Louis Raven]

You also have to see what it looks like to them. You want to cancel a few day after receiving the info/goods? yeah right!

That's how it probably looks to them.

But, I'd contact them and explain the situation and ask them if the only choice you have is to get a credit card charge back?

See what they say to that

Louis

[tommygadget]

Yes, try once more with the merchant. If not, a chargeback is in order. I had almost the exact same issue and PayPal decided in my favor.

TomG.

[Curt7]

Originally Posted by steveinidaho

The merchant didn't do anything wrong and doesn't really deserve a chargeback, do they? Especially when it will cost them another $25-$30 to rectify an oversight on your part.

Bull...., If the merchant won't refund, they deserve the cost of a chargeback.

If the credit card is Visa or Mastercard, the issuing bank will chargeback. Contact them.

[jjpmarketing]

Let me re-state what happened. They charged me on 11/14/08 at 6:30 AM. I checked my email at 10:30 AM. Found out who the charge was from and immediately emailed them stating what had happened and that I did not wish to renew my membership. This was within 4 hours of the charge. They can tell what I have downloaded from their site. I haven't logged in or downloaded anything from their site since the first week I had their service several months ago.

I simply wanted my money back for service that I didn't want and had no plans on using (for the upcoming 3 months). They charge 49.99 for 3 months of membership. I have not used the 3 months they are charging me for. I simply just want that charge refunded.

They should have refunded my money. It is not really about the money. I can afford to lose the $49.99. It is the principle of the matter. I know I am not the only one this has happened to.

If I were in their situation and had a similar membership site I would have refunded the customers money. To top it off I never even used the content I downloaded several months ago.

FYI: It wasn't a Credit Card. It was an instant transfer from my Bank account. I will call PayPal and my Bank tomorrow and see what my options are.

[Curt7]

PayPal is great for encouraging people to use instant transfer. It's nice until something like this happens. I stopped using instant transfer just because of this kind of a situation.

I once paid an online company $5000 for a service they did not perform. PayPal offered no solutions, but my credit card company did. I got the money back within days of my complaint.

[jjpmarketing]

Thanks, Curt. While I didn't use a Credit Card, that is very re-assuring.

Also thanks to everyone else for their responses. Even the ones who were playing the part of the Devil's advocate.

[AlanCarr]

I'm not familiar with what this service is but if you didn't like it why didn't you cancel upon reaching that decision, why wait until the after the 2nd charge to decide it wasn't for you?

That you didn't use whatever you downloaded is utterly irrelevant.

I'm sorry but I have to side on the merchant on this one. Having said that if I were the merchant I'd refund you just to avoid the hassle and ill-feeling but I don't see you have any RIGHT to demand a refund. There was nothing stopping you from cancelling well before the charge was due.

I'd say it would be perfectly fair if they refunded but charged something like a 10% admin fee.




B.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by Curt Dillion

Bull...., If the merchant won't refund, they deserve the cost of a chargeback.

If the credit card is Visa or Mastercard, the issuing bank will chargeback. Contact them.

That is right Curt, why take responsibility for our own actions when we can blame others.

[Frank Ayres]

Originally Posted by Curt Dillion

Bull...., If the merchant won't refund, they deserve the cost of a chargeback.

If the credit card is Visa or Mastercard, the issuing bank will chargeback. Contact them.

You sound like a complete idiot.

The company did nothing wrong, someone forgot to cancel their membership and you think the company should get a $25 fee against them.

[R Hagel]

I went to BoxedArt and pretended like I was going to purchase a membership. Immediately, I had to agree to their terms and verify that I had read their FAQ.

Their FAQ page says:


-6 Does BoxedArt offer refunds?
Once you have downloaded an item from BoxedArt.com or if you have purchased a product from our Limited Items section we cannot offer a refund, which you are held responsible for understanding upon your creation of a BoxedArt.com membership or purchase of a BoxedArt.com Limited Item. The reason for this policy is because we offer full access to our entire digital collection of member products and, as such, there is no way for our products to be returned. On a rare occasion, if no products have been accessed, we will make exceptions on a case by case basis, however this is not applicable to renewal purchases where products have been previously downloaded or to BoxedArt.com Limited Items.


That snippet comes from this FAQ page: Web Templates | Flash Templates | Website Templates for Complete Websites


Their terms that you must agree to when you sign up say:

REFUNDS: Once You have downloaded an item from BoxedArt.com we cannot offer a refund, which You are held responsible for understanding upon Your order with BoxedArt.com.

That snippet is from: http://www.boxedart.com/BoxedArtLicensing.pdf


Now you said:

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

They can tell what I have downloaded from their site. I haven't logged in or downloaded anything from their site since the first week I had their service several months ago.

But you DID download something, even if it was in the first few days -- which means that you're not entitled to a refund, as per the terms you agreed to when you joined the service.

Just call it your $50 lesson.

Cheers,
Becky

[Curt7]

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

That is right Curt, why take responsibility for our own actions when we can blame others.

Thomas,
I don't think this issue is about taking responsibility for our own actions at all. I think it's about the business owner's integrity and reputation. I've elaborated on that below.

Originally Posted by SpudDS

You sound like a complete idiot.

The company did nothing wrong, someone forgot to cancel their membership and you think the company should get a $25 fee against them.

Spud,
I don't think they should get a $25 fee. I think they are wrong not to give a refund. Anyway, I've been on both ends of that kind of a transaction, and I wasn't charged a fee when I was the merchant being charged back.

When most of us are charged for a product, any product, and especially digital products, and we discover it's not what we want, we expect the company to give us a refund. It's usually part of the guarantee, or most of us wouldn't have purchased in the first place. I have yet to see a membership site that didn't say you could cancel at any time.

In this situation, Dennis discovered his oversight when he was charged for a service he wasn't using. He asked to cancel and be refunded the latest charge. As he stated, they could tell he wasn't using it, or downloading their information. A refund shouldn't be a problem for a respectable business owner.

I've given refunds even when the customer did get the product. So has most everyone else in this business. It just makes sense not to alienate customers, especially with digital products as opposed to physical products.

I think the site owner has poor ethics.

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

Thanks, Curt. While I didn't use a Credit Card, that is very re-assuring.

In that case, the word "chargeback" that people are arguing about is not relevant.

Since you didn't use a credit card, it's totally up to Paypal as to whether you get the refund, and if they go by their stated policy, you won't get one in this case.

[Jeff B]

If it's clearly spelled out like that in the TOS, then I don't think you really have a case. Also, as someone else mentioned.. why didn't you just cancel your subscription back when you decided it wasn't for you?

[Angela V. Edwards]

Well, I don't know how you'd get the refund, but it's pretty sad that the company didn't refund you. That's just good customer service.

I had a customer who needed information on how to cancel his subscription to my service. So I helped him. I got the following email from him:

Angela,

Thank you. Your character shines through by helping someone who is cancelling a subscription to your service.

I appreciate your assistance and integrity.

Take care,

Next time this person encounters someone who's looking for a great way to get High PR backlinks, who do you think he's going to recommend? I believe in top notch customer service and I am glad there are many other marketers who do, as well. The ones who don't do this correctly won't have anywhere near the word-of-mouth advertising that they could have had.

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I'm just curious if anyone has attempted this before. I have never tried and never had the need to until now. I signed up with boxedart several months ago and after a few days realized that I didn't like it. I forgot to cancel my account and they have charged me again.

The very day I got the charge, I contacted BoxedArt asking for a cancellation and a refund. In fact I did this within 4 hours of the charge. They refused. So naturally since I paid with PayPal I went directly to PayPal and issued a dispute on the charge. PayPal said it wasn't covered under their protection policies or something along those lines.

So now I am stuck with contacting my bank to issue a chargeback. Has anyone ever tried this? And will get issued to the merchant, BoxedArt? Or will it get issued to PayPal and result in my PayPal account getting locked or terminated?

[Chris Lockwood]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

Next time this person encounters someone who's looking for a great way to get High PR backlinks, who do you think he's going to recommend?

That's an interesting question, considering he canceled yours. I'm not judging your service at all, just wondering if someone who wasn't happy with it would recommend it to others.

[SteveJohnson]

Originally Posted by Curt Dillion

Thomas,
I don't think this issue is about taking responsibility for our own actions at all. I think it's about the business owner's integrity and reputation. I've elaborated on that below.



Spud,
I don't think they should get a $25 fee. I think they are wrong not to give a refund. Anyway, I've been on both ends of that kind of a transaction, and I wasn't charged a fee when I was the merchant being charged back.

When most of us are charged for a product, any product, and especially digital products, and we discover it's not what we want, we expect the company to give us a refund. It's usually part of the guarantee, or most of us wouldn't have purchased in the first place. I have yet to see a membership site that didn't say you could cancel at any time.

In this situation, Dennis discovered his oversight when he was charged for a service he wasn't using. He asked to cancel and be refunded the latest charge. As he stated, they could tell he wasn't using it, or downloading their information. A refund shouldn't be a problem for a respectable business owner.

I've given refunds even when the customer did get the product. So has most everyone else in this business. It just makes sense not to alienate customers, especially with digital products as opposed to physical products.

I think the site owner has poor ethics.

I call b.s. on all of this.

Of course a refund is a problem for a respectable business owner. It's a pain in the ass, takes time, and by the time it's over with the transaction has COST the merchant money.

That you may expect the company to give a refund doesn't mean they will, or that they should. These people stated VERY CLEARLY the conditions for cancellation and refund, in a document that was available BEFORE purchase.

There's no obligation anywhere, anytime that I know of that a merchant HAS to make a refund. If they do so, it's because it's to their benefit to refund the purchase. Obviously, this company doesn't feel they need to. Bully for them.

On a rare occasion, if no products have been accessed, we will make exceptions on a case by case basis, however this is not applicable to renewal purchases where products have been previously downloaded or to BoxedArt.com Limited Items.

How plain does it have to BE?

With this company, there was more than enough information for the customer to do due diligence BEFORE purchasing.

He tried to get a refund, they said no. End of story.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

That's an interesting question, considering he canceled yours. I'm not judging your service at all, just wondering if someone who wasn't happy with it would recommend it to others.

Well, due to the overwhelming positive feedback I get (take a look at my WSO thread), I am sure that he didn't cancel because he didn't like it. Maybe he just wasn't using the subscription or something. Or maybe he couldn't really afford it. We just don't know what other people's financial situations are and even a few dollars saved each month may help them out tremendously.

I'd rather have customers who can use the product than a bunch of people subscribed "just because".

[DBryan78324]

I've had the same problem you are having only mine was a bit different. The product was not as advertised in my two cases. Perhaps this is why you did not use the product, it was not what was advertised. In both of my cases, I won on that fact, not as advertised. Go one step future and file the step after a dispute, (think it is called a claim, but not sure) with Pay pal. Also contact your bank even if it was a direct withdrawal from your account. Most likely your bank will get your money back, as they want a happy customer. Pay Pal, (which I have worked with for years) does not really care one way or another. I agree with the people who are saying it is the right thing for the merchant to do, but the merchant probably is only interested in the money and not your satisfaction, otherwise they would offer a guarantee even if it was a downloaded item. You just have to fight it and not give up, cause this is what most people do, write it up to experience. Myself I hate the spam that is floating around on the Internet and all the ads on making millions next month...
Good Luck, but there is ways to get your money back unless you give up...
Dave

[Norma Holt]

I have got money back from the most resistant of merchants by threatening to post details of my experience with them in all the forums I belong to and on all my lists of thousands. It has worked every time except once when I actually did discredit someone on some e-mail lists and the company begged me not to do it again and quickly refunded my money.

Its not Paypal's fault as you forgot to cancel your subscription which they had undertaken on your behalf to pay. Its now between you and the company with which you have the dispute.

Hope this helps.

Norma

[joblythe]

Norma

I have got money back from the most resistant of merchants by threatening to post details of my experience with them in all the forums I belong to and on all my lists of thousands. It has worked every time except once when I actually did discredit someone on some e-mail lists and the company begged me not to do it again and quickly refunded my money.

That's a strange reaction to compare your experiences to those of someone who didn't like the product from the start, yet waited until the second payment was taken, before asking for a refund! The OP forgot to cancel - would you have made that clear to your lists of thousands and all the people on the forums you belong to??

I doubt it! - different circumstances - different attitude!

[jjpmarketing]

I never received a notice that I was going to be charged. I use PayPal quite a bit for purchases, and had completely forgotten about the purchase. For some reason I thought I might find use out of it later. Out of sight, out of mind.

It wasn't like it was a monthly charge. It was a quarterly charge.

It doesn't matter what their TOS says, it is like what Angela mentioned, it is a matter of good customer service. If they had given a refund as I requested, nothing would have been mentioned afterwards.

Now since at the moment it looks like I may not get a refund, not only will I have to pursue the chargeback route, but I will also tell anyone I know that they should never do business with BoxedArt because of my negative experience. It is a lose, lose situation.

I lose because I may not get my $49.99 back, and they lose because I mention to the people I know that they are not a good company to do business with.

I gave them the first chance to correct the situation. They declined. I am giving them a second chance with the PayPal dispute process. I won't give them a 3rd chance to correct it.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I never received a notice that I was going to be charged. I use PayPal quite a bit for purchases, and had completely forgotten about the purchase. For some reason I thought I might find use out of it later. Out of sight, out of mind.

It wasn't like it was a monthly charge. It was a quarterly charge.

It doesn't matter what their TOS says, it is like what Angela mentioned, it is a matter of good customer service. If they had given a refund as I requested, nothing would have been mentioned afterwards.

Now since at the moment it looks like I may not get a refund, not only will I have to pursue the chargeback route, but I will also tell anyone I know that they should never do business with BoxedArt because of my negative experience. It is a lose, lose situation.

I lose because I may not get my $49.99 back, and they lose because I mention to the people I know that they are not a good company to do business with.

I gave them the first chance to correct the situation. They declined. I am giving them a second chance with the PayPal dispute process. I won't give them a 3rd chance to correct it.

It is good customer service to refund you but you are wrong to say the TOS doesn't matter. You agreed to certain terms and now you are complaining about them. Take responsibility for your actions and I bet things like this won't happen to you anymore.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by Curt Dillion

Thomas,
I don't think this issue is about taking responsibility for our own actions at all. I think it's about the business owner's integrity and reputation. I've elaborated on that below.

Curt, you keep making my point for me. It is about taking responsibility. Didn't he agree to certain terms when he signed up? Let me help you there, YES he did. So the company kept their agreement so why didn't he?

It would have been better customer service if they refunded. I do think they dropped the ball on that. But to say this isn't about taking responsibility is crazy talk. Too many people on here blame everything and everyone else for their mistakes instead of looking into the mirror.

[R Hagel]

So, you're going to bully BA and/or attempt to ruin BA's reputation because:

1. You forgot to cancel, and

2. You don't want to follow the TOS that you agreed to when you signed up?

I looked again at the sign up page:

sign up page: https://www.boxedart.com/phpshop/yearly.php


This isn't one of those cases where there is just a link to the TOS and the company assumes you read the terms. You actually had to check a box that says you AGREE to their TOS (see the link above). So they can probably win the chargeback because you agreed to their terms when you purchased the service. And as you've admitted here, you downloaded. Had you not downloaded anything, they may have issued you the refund.

BTW, as a merchant I tend to give refunds that are past the refund deadline and so on. But that's me. That's what I do. These folks (BA) have decided to stick with their TOS -- and that's their right.

Cheers,
Becky

[jjpmarketing]

No. I am not attempting to bully BoxedArt at all. I see all points of view when it comes to this. The problem I have with this, is a very shady practice of forcing a renewal on a customer.

I didn't wait 2 weeks after the renewal to contact them. I contacted them immediately when I realized what had happened.

I didn't actually forget to cancel. I only used "forgot to cancel" as an example. It was a lot simpler to say that than to go on explaining all the reasons I didn't cancel immediately, then forgot about the charge, and thought I had cancelled, but then realized that I actually hadn't cancelled.

Initially I didn't like it after I had downloaded the files. But since a cancellation meant not only would I lose 49.99 but I would also lose access to the site before my 90 days was up. Not that it mattered, but I still wanted to get my $49.99 worth out of the site.

In the process I forgot about the site altogether, until the recent charge. In this case the TOS does matter, not in a matter of me following their TOS, but in a matter of them using questionable practices.

But again I will not bully this company. I will pursue the right actions up until the end. Whatever is decided is fine by me. But I won't stay quiet because of few lines in their TOS. I will clearly and truthfully detail what happened on my blog. It isn't because I want to bully this company, it is because I don't want someone else to have the same bad experience with this company. Especially if someone reading the blog post, can't afford to lose $49.99.

No matter what happens, good or bad, I will blog about it. If I wanted to bully the company, I would have never asked for a refund. I would have just did a chargeback or dispute. I am making it as easy as I can on them.

[Thomas Belknap]

I love these posts. It tells me whom not to do business with.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I didn't actually forget to cancel. I only used "forgot to cancel" as an example. It was a lot simpler to say that than to go on explaining all the reasons I didn't cancel immediately, then forgot about the charge, and thought I had cancelled, but then realized that I actually hadn't cancelled.



In the process I forgot about the site altogether, until the recent charge. In this case the TOS does matter, not in a matter of me following their TOS, but in a matter of them using questionable practices.

Well, which is it? You state you didn't forget to cancel but then say you forgot about the site which means you forgot to cancel. You can try to put as much lipstick on this pig as you want. You screwed up and now blaming their tos which you agreed to. It is shady now but wasn't shady when you signed up and knew you would cancel within 90 days. Now it is shady because you forgot to cancel.


DUHH....


I can only hope you have a customer just like yourself. I think I will blog about what type of customer you are and why people should avoid dealing with you.

[jjpmarketing]

The original intent of this post, was to find out the next steps to pursue when PayPal doesn't see things your way. I did not intend for this post to be all about BoxedArt. It just turned out that way.

I don't want people to have a negative opinion of the company. I merely want them to see the truth. To see the true practices of the company. If they then have a negative opinion of the company, it will be because of the company's policies.

[joblythe]

I didn't actually forget to cancel. I only used "forgot to cancel" as an example. It was a lot simpler to say that than to go on explaining all the reasons I didn't cancel immediately, then forgot about the charge, and thought I had cancelled, but then realized that I actually hadn't cancelled.

Mmmmm - wonder if BA understood this??

[jjpmarketing]

Even though I did go into detail with them explaining it, I doubt it mattered. Their TOS is written to protect them from this.

I asked in the hopes they would provide me with a refund... as in provide good customer service.

@Thomas Belknap

Do whatever you feel you need to do, Thomas. If ever, I had a customer like that I would provide them with customer service... not "Read the TOS" BS. And if you put what happened in the simplest terms, yes I did forget to cancel.

Now if you actually go through with Blogging about me, then as is always the case, the truth will come out in the end. That is true for me, and it will be true for the case with Boxed Art.

[GarrieWilson]

I don't want people to have a negative opinion of the company.

Yet, earlier you said:

Now since at the moment it looks like I may not get a refund, not only will I have to pursue the chargeback route, but I will also tell anyone I know that they should never do business with BoxedArt because of my negative experience. It is a lose, lose situation.

Make up your mind.

They held up their end of the deal, why can't you?

The amount of time you spent here, complianing about how YOU don't want to be held accountable for your actions, or should I say inaction, you could have earned that $50.

It's not like they make you jump through hoops to cancel either. You just login to PayPal and click cancel.

If you do a bank chare back, you will have to lie to the bank and say it was unauthorized. Are you willing to lie?

[GarrieWilson]

... as in provide good customer service.

Buut you wouldnt be a customer if they refunded it.

[jjpmarketing]

No Garrie I wouldn't lie. I would tell them what happened. I have only spent time on this thread explaining what happened.

You also didn't catch a key phrase, "At this moment..."

I won't be making any blog posts until it is all worked out. Either way the full ordeal will be detailed on my blog.

[R Hagel]

The following is also in their FAQ (which customers must put a checkmark saying they have read it and understood it):

3-8 Will my BoxedArt subscription renew automatically?
This will depend on how you set your subscription up when you join BoxedArt, however if you choose a renewing subscription, then this can be cancelled from recurring at any time.
credit card transaction will never automatically renew.

Customers have a choice whether to have a one-time bill or a recurring charge.

However if you select a paypal subscription and would like to later cancel the subscription before it rebills, you can do so by following these instructions:

Simply log into paypal.com, and click on the “all activity” link. Next, from the drop down box labeled “show”, select “subscriptions”. Choose a large enough date range to back at least as far as your original purchase, and then click search. Once the search results appear, click on the subscription details, and then on the cancel button within the subscription details. That’s all you need to do to cancel your paypal subscription prior to your expiration date before it renews at the end of your term.

Nice step by step instructions.

If you have created a subscription that has renewed because it was not cancelled before the end of a term, then this cannot be refunded.

And the above is their clear policy on renewals/refunds.



I just point all of this out so that if/when you blog about it, you can include these facts as well.

[Angela V. Edwards]

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

You can try to put as much lipstick on this pig as you want.

NOOooooooo!!! Tell me you did NOT start that "lipstick on a pig" thing again.

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by Angela V. Edwards

NOOooooooo!!! Tell me you did NOT start that "lipstick on a pig" thing again.

hehe I am seeing a trained professional for my animal makeup hobbies.

[Glenn Grundberg]

Thomas, I hope you get help...

But seriously, I agree with everything you've said, and second your motions here (for what that's worth).

Personally, I would have just refunded him and let it go as well, but BA has every right to take any action within their TOS that they like.

@Dennis: Your lame-ass excuse that you wanted to maybe use the membership later sort of...then kinda forgot...or maybe...whatever...

Dude, the whole thing smacks of whining, and a shocking example of a sense of entitlement and an unwillingness to take personal responsibility for one's actions.

See, there's a little thing called a "Calendar" that's available pretty much ANYWHERE for free...Your email program probably has one...Google even gives you one for free that will send you reminders!

When you buy a subscription, set up a reminder when the next bill is coming due! Then you won't have to eat another mistake, or come here and whine about your own lack of planning.

Works for me!

[SteveJohnson]

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

Even though I did go into detail with them explaining it, I doubt it mattered. Their TOS is written to protect them from this.

I asked in the hopes they would provide me with a refund... as in provide good customer service.

How in the WORLD do you equate 'refund' with 'good customer service'? The two terms are NOT synonymous - not even remotely. You think you should be able to buy a car then 3 months later take it back and say, "I don't want it, and I want my last payment refunded."

Their TOS is written to protect themselves from people signing up, downloading everything, then requesting a refund -- not "this".

You knew the rules, you made the decision -- and now you're pouting like a 3-year old because they won't bend their rules for you?

Amazing.

This is ALL about personal responsibility.

You knew the terms when you signed up. You knew how it worked. You clicked the boxes, you told PayPal to pay the subscription. It's YOUR fault that you waited too long to cancel the subscription (and subscriptions are NOT shady business practices by the way, as you seem to imply in another post).

You might try holding yourself to a higher standard.

[Jeff B]

Originally Posted by Glenn Grundberg

Thomas, I hope you get help...

But seriously, I agree with everything you've said, and second your motions here (for what that's worth).

Personally, I would have just refunded him and let it go as well, but BA has every right to take any action within their TOS that they like.

@Dennis: Your lame-ass excuse that you wanted to maybe use the membership later sort of...then kinda forgot...or maybe...whatever...

Dude, the whole thing smacks of whining, and a shocking example of a sense of entitlement and an unwillingness to take personal responsibility for one's actions.

See, there's a little thing called a "Calendar" that's available pretty much ANYWHERE for free...Your email program probably has one...Google even gives you one for free that will send you reminders!

When you buy a subscription, set up a reminder when the next bill is coming due! Then you won't have to eat another mistake, or come here and whine about your own lack of planning.

Works for me!

I was just about to reply to again, but you saved me some time. I couldn't have said it better myself.

By agreeing to their TOS when you signed up, you entered into a legally binding agreement. You don't have a leg to stand on in this case.

[SteveJohnson]

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

hehe I am seeing a trained professional for my animal makeup hobbies.

THAT is encouraging ... as long as the 'trained professional' isn't a cosmetology instructor ... yikes!

[Johnny Slater]

Ok.. first and foremost...

There is no requirement that says anyone has to give a refund just because a customer requests one. The ability to get a refund is not an absolute right.

As has been stated above, try to buy a car then once you sign the papers say you changed your mind and want a refund. See how fast they laugh you out of the place.

A huge amount of businesses have a no refund policy, or a conditional refund policy. That is entirely within their right as a seller. The seller sets their own rules for what they will and will not do when entering into a transaction with a customer. It is up to the customer to agree to those terms and purchase, or not agree and not purchase.

Just because you purchase a product online, and most people give refunds, that does not automatically mean everyone will or even should give refunds. This is up to each individual seller.

Second, you agreed to their terms of service by clicking a required check box before purchase. They forced you to agree to their terms before you became a customer of thiers. This means that at the end of the day, no matter what, they are in the right. You agreed to abide by their terms so you have no recourse. You don't have to like it, your not required to like it, but you are required to agree or not purchase.

You have no right complaining about anything once you agree to the terms of service. The seller posted their policies clearly on their web site and made those policies available to you to view. They then forced you to agree to those policies before you purchased.

Third, you can sugar coat things any way you like, but by trying to force a company to give you a refund because you don't want to honor the contract you entered into with them you are in effect committing fraud.

You entered into a contract with the seller by making a purchase and if you try to break the terms of that contract then you are defrauding the seller. Most people will not like that statement, but it is the truth.

This mentality of I deserve a refund just because I want one has given this industry a black eye and has been one of the forces which give IM such a bad reputation. It's no wonder people think anyone in IM is a scammer when so many people are willing to try to scam sellers out of honestly earned income.

How about people taking some personal responsibility for their own actions and own up to their own mistakes for a change?

[Frank Ayres]

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

No Garrie I wouldn't lie. I would tell them what happened. I have only spent time on this thread explaining what happened.

You also didn't catch a key phrase, "At this moment..."

I won't be making any blog posts until it is all worked out. Either way the full ordeal will be detailed on my blog.

The only ordeal is the one you are creating.
I personally don't think this is making the company look bad, i think it is making you look bad.
You said originally it wasn't about the money, well give it up and come away with some dignity, because at the moment you have none and it isn't doing your reputation any good at the moment.