I want some "Fluff", Please can I have some "Fluff" ?

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kenj

I might create a problem here but here goes. Many marketers explain with great aplomb and gusto that their product contains "No Fluff". I am becoming increasingly concerned that lazy marketers are using this idea to create incomplete systems and products. There is "No Fluff" because they can't be bothered to supply a coherent and complete product.

Sometimes "fluff" is needed to explain what the product offers.

Here are the benefits of "fluff"

You can understand something better by having it explained in 2 or 3 different ways.
Fluff can be a case study that shows exactly what your process involves.
You can use video fluff to explain the pdf
Fluff can be accompanying spreadsheets and tools that streamline your processes.
Show me the exact resources you use - the actual resources you are prepared to pay for. Don't recommend a product just for the chance of a commission.
You could also summarize your 30 minute epic video in a 3 page fluff pdf. (Oh Please, Please!!)
Fluff helps me really understand the inner workings of your money making system.

I would like to know what other warriors think about fluff.

Kenj

If something is needed to explain what the product offers, it is not fluff. Fluff is different.

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marcuslim

13 years ago

When marketers put on a lot of fluff, it usually means they hype up the product to make it sound like it promises much more than what it really does. No-fluff marketing just highlights exactly what the product promises and lets the product stand for itself.

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bizman413

13 years ago

Originally Posted by timyang

When marketers put on a lot of fluff, it usually means they hype up the product to make it sound like it promises much more than what it really does. No-fluff marketing just highlights exactly what the product promises and lets the product stand for itself.

Exactly. Fluff would be something like... "You can MAke $100 by 3PM today!" Not sure who in their right mind believes half of this fluff, I usually just ignore it and look at the product for what it's worth.

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Bill Farnham 13 years ago

Fluff is basically the point at which the consumer of the product starts wondering when or if you'll ever get to the point. There was a hugely succsessful product out a few years back called something like the "Maven Manifesto" by RS that basically defined what fluff was.

Not that it was a 'definition' by literary standards, more that it was a benchmark for what form fluff can take and still be seen as 'useful'. Useful being the key modifier here. A modifier in the sense that the overall tone of the piece was an attempt at subliminal grandiousity yet somehow managed to impart some useful information.

Sometimes building the 'backstory' has a way of cohesively bonding the impending information with a point of referrence whereby the reader can substantially inherit a given supposition to the point of actually adopting a preconceived intellegence about a particular subject.

That's not to say that by simply conjuring up oversimplifications of what may or may not be described as "the essence" of the ideas put forth you will tend to overtly cause inconsistancies in the understanding of your reader, only that by adhering to a much more formal inference of a "no fluff policy" you may indeed doom your reader to sporatic bouts of "WTF?"

I think we can all agree on that.

~Bill
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- KevinTorrence 13 years ago
  
  To me, FLUFF is padding/filler ... it holds to real value and talks around the point. It makes your eyes glaze over.
  
  Maybe what you're really looking for is "Guts" ... "the Juicy stuff" ... "ALL the details". The stuff that makes you think "Oh my God... I totally see how this works ... this is KILLER!" Kevin Riley does an awesome job with this in his products.
  
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Oxbloom

13 years ago

Originally Posted by timyang

When marketers put on a lot of fluff, it usually means they hype up the product to make it sound like it promises much more than what it really does. No-fluff marketing just highlights exactly what the product promises and lets the product stand for itself.

I think this is the point of contention, and the point of the OP.

This is what "fluff" ought to mean.

"No-fluff" marketing ought to be "exactly what the product promises," with no meaningless filler.

But all filler is not meaningless, nor is all filler fluff. Sometimes, you need to fill in holes in the communication. Sometimes, you need to fill in holes in the flow of logic from one topic to the next. Sometimes, you need to fill in holes that fail to explain *precisely* to the buyer *exactly* what he needs to be doing.

Marketers who communicate their points well and succinctly, while omitting nothing, and adding nothing superfluous...these guys aren't trumpeting a lack of fluff. They're just getting the job done. Putting out a good, reliable product, and letting it speak for itself.

The marketers who are telling us that they *aren't* using fluff in their marketing are...(A) guilty of using fluff right then and there, and (B) primarily using it as an excuse to generate a sub-par, incomplete product that can't be bothered to communicate fully and effectively.

The kind of fluff that "no fluff marketers" are omitting, I could most definitely use more of.

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CurtisN

13 years ago

Fluff - "something of no consequence" - Dictionary.com

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profitsforall 13 years ago

Well I've searched my belly button and unfortunately no fluff there,
can i interest you in some toe jam instead.

(sorry im in a silly mood).
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- KenJ 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by profitsforall
  
  (sorry im in a silly mood).
  
  You and me both
  
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  mcmahanusa 13 years ago
  
  I can't stand it.
  
  Gene Hackman just leapt into my mind. "Did you ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?"
  
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Michael Oksa

13 years ago

Hi kenj,

I have used the claim of no fluff for a lot of my products. However, it sounds like we differing opinions of what fluff is.

If I can explain what you need to know in a 10 page guide, but make it 250 pages, then you aren't getting 240 pages of extra value.

To me, fluff is anything that isn't relevant to the information I'm selling. So, using your example above, if I were to explain something from multiple angles, include a video to show people how it's done, or include a quick guide (which I do in one of my currently promoted products), then I wouldn't consider them fluff.

However, if I selling a course on how to make money with WordPress and I start talking about the weather, sports, what makes me angry, what food I like and my favorite movie, AND don't make them relevant to the topic, then that's fluff.

I also consider fluff as something such as doing something like adding unnecessary, extra, or more words than you really need to say to get the vital point of what you're trying to say to someone so they can understand the meaning of it--only for the sake of increasing the total number of words contained in a guide, so it looks like there is more than there really is, which only serves to...

Well, you get the idea.

All the best,
Michael

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

None of the things you listed are fluff. Fluff is nothing. It's filler to make the product seem bigger. It's dead space.

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Colin Palfrey

13 years ago

Actually as someone who has bought countless WSOs I can confirm "fluff" is the details required to make the systems actually work.

I base this entirely on my experiences, but it has got to the point that seeing the words "No fluff" on a system is all I need to hit the back button. I know nine times out of ten that what I will get is a few pages of theory that only vaguely make sense even to the author.

Yes it is always possible to ask for a refund, but unless someone invents a way for me to get back the time I have wasted on some clods two page system, this doesn't solve the problem.

I know what the word "fluff" means, and it appears you all do too. It's a shame that many WSO sellers don't have the same vocabulary, or choose not to use it.

My 2c,
Colin Palfrey

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Jill Carpenter 13 years ago

Originally Posted by kenj

I would like to know what other warriors think about fluff.

Kenj

I think it goes great with peanutbutter, and sometimes I mush it into my icecream.

(it is fluffy marshmellow stuff here in the US )
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- Kevin Riley 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by avenuegirl
  
  I think it goes great with peanutbutter, and sometimes I mush it into my icecream.
  
  (it is fluffy marshmellow stuff here in the US )
  
  Aha! Now I know why you were requesting my belly button fluff.
  
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  Jill Carpenter 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Kevin Riley
  
  Aha! Now I know why you were requesting my belly button fluff.
  
  Marshmallow Fluff Homepage. This Is It, Folks!
  
  Yes, you will see it takes a bit to fill the jar.
  
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Andie

13 years ago

Fluffiness is in the eye of the beholder...

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Fun to Write

13 years ago

One order of super sized fluff coming right up, sir!

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Dennis Gaskill

13 years ago

I bought an ebook once in which the author spent 14 pages telling me there was no fluff in his product because fluff was bad.

14 pages before he said anything that wasn't related to fluffy fluff.

I skipped around after that didn't see anything of value, unless more talk about fluff is valuable, so it was one of the few times I've asked for a refund. I said, "I read 14 pages of fluff telling me there was no fluff. That was too much fluff for me. Please refund."

He refunded promptly, I'll give him that.

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CR

13 years ago

Who else thinks there's a stack of "fluff" in this thread?

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CrhisD

13 years ago

Nothing works like Fluff (tm).

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donhx 13 years ago

Actually, there is something worse than fluff. It's waffle.
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paulie888

13 years ago

In my opinion, the points you have mentioned above are definitely not "fluff". That is the stuff that makes a product comprehensive and keeps your purchasers from wondering if you cut any corners during the product creation process, or even worse, rehashed someone else's method (and are trying to hide the fact that you know very little about the subject matter).

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Oxbloom

13 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

In my opinion, the points you have mentioned above are definitely not "fluff". That is the stuff that makes a product comprehensive and keeps your purchasers from wondering if you cut any corners during the product creation process, or even worse, rehashed someone else's method (and are trying to hide the fact that you know very little about the subject matter).

Right.

But I think you continue to miss the point.

People who go out of the way to describe their product as "no fluff" are cutting out exactly this type of valuable information, and are using "no fluff" only as an excuse to half-ass the product creation.

People who genuinely offer no fluff materials let the product speak for itself in this respect, and let the market trumpet their usefulness.

In short: seeing anybody describe their own product as "no fluff" says to me instantly that they have cut corners, and that the best thing they have to say about their own product in their marketing materials is that it's short.

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paulie888

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Oxbloom

Right.

But I think you continue to miss the point.

People who go out of the way to describe their product as "no fluff" are cutting out exactly this type of valuable information, and are using "no fluff" only as an excuse to half-ass the product creation.

People who genuinely offer no fluff materials let the product speak for itself in this respect, and let the market trumpet their usefulness.

In short: seeing anybody describe their own product as "no fluff" says to me instantly that they have cut corners, and that the best thing they have to say about their own product in their marketing materials is that it's short.

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. Making a blanket statement like that is very dangerous, and I can categorically state that this is untrue.

I can state this from personal experience as I've purchased at least several products in the past that trumpeted the "no fluff" aspect, and yet they were very comprehensive but devoid of the "fluff" that we've come to know and detest (i.e. useless filler).

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Michael Oksa

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Oxbloom

Right.

But I think you continue to miss the point.

People who go out of the way to describe their product as "no fluff" are cutting out exactly this type of valuable information, and are using "no fluff" only as an excuse to half-ass the product creation.

People who genuinely offer no fluff materials let the product speak for itself in this respect, and let the market trumpet their usefulness.

In short: seeing anybody describe their own product as "no fluff" says to me instantly that they have cut corners, and that the best thing they have to say about their own product in their marketing materials is that it's short.

Sorry, but I take some offense to that, and I'm sure I'm not alone.

I believe I offer complete products, and continue to say "no fluff". But when you watch 2 hours of video about how to use the Google Keyword tool, and watch a guy opening 20 new tabs in FireFox in the video, and here him drone on and on....then your brain will scream for no fluff.

I don't cut corners.

And to say I say "no fluff" as an excuse to release "half-a**" products is insulting. Until you have seen my products, you can't really be sure. However, you are certainly free to react to various words and phrases in whichever way you choose. I can't complain about that.

Perhaps people should judge a product on its own merits instead of automatically discounting them because a seller sees the term "no fluff" in a different light. BUT...before they buy it, they can only go by what the sales copy says. Anyway, please understand when I (and others) say "no fluff", it's not a cop out; instead, it is really meant as a positive selling point.

All the best,
Michael

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KenJ

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Perhaps people should judge a product on its own merits instead of automatically discounting them because a seller sees the term "no fluff" in a different light. BUT...before they buy it, they can only go by what the sales copy says. Anyway, please understand when I (and others) say "no fluff", it's not a cop out; instead, it is really meant as a positive selling point.

All the best,
Michael

Hi Michael

You and oxbloom both have very valid points. The issue with fluff to my mind is that the "no fluff" ticket is used be less scrupulous marketers to churn out substandard products.

I know from my own purchases that some products are incomplete and terse in the extreme. You have to read between the lines and work out the assumed knowledge you are supposed to have.

Kenj

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Laura B

13 years ago

I'm not fat, I'm fluffy.

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Jill Carpenter 13 years ago

If it wasn't for the "Fluffer" one particular industry I know of would be down.

(runs out of this thread)
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paulie888

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LD Carter

Aha! Good one. You're also pretty.

But anyways -- I always though "no fluff" meant that the person writing the book just got straight to the point. Fluff is usually described as a person adding unnecessary and/or even useless material to a document in order to stretch it out. That's what I've always though. I do like the "straight to the point" approach because it saves me time and I don't have to flip through 50 pages before I finally get to the meat.

LD, fluff as you've described it is very readily apparent the moment you peruse the product, and no one really likes that fluff (as defined by the majority of us). However, the OP's definition of "fluff" is slightly different, and it is what makes the difference between a comprehensive/helpful product and an incomplete one that leaves people scratching their heads.

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

LD, fluff as you've described it is very readily apparent the moment you peruse the product, and no one really likes that fluff (as defined by the majority of us). However, the OP's definition of "fluff" is slightly different, and it is what makes the difference between a comprehensive/helpful product and an incomplete one that leaves people scratching their heads.

Right Paul,

But there is also "good fluff", like when they explain things in detail step by step. You talk about flipping through 50 pages, that could be 50 pages of instructionals and buying domains, which might help certain people.

There really is no such thing as fluff.

Caleb

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LD Carter

I'm talking about fluff in the sense of you basically having to re-read their entire sales letter plus some before you get to the content. I didn't say anything about flipping through instructional information. Obviously that wouldn't be "fluff" in the way I'm describing it.

Do you mean like the ones that have an upsell for the first few pages, offer you a bonus, then offer you to become an affiliate before getting to the content?

I wish that fluff was at the end of the book, I do like getting the affiliate info though.

Caleb

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LD Carter

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Better yet, why are you taking my words and flipping them to mean what you want them to mean? My point was very clear and understandable by those that want to understand it.

Whoa Dude. There's no need to start calling me out, and making me look bad. We've been through this before.

@paulie888, I guess my reading is slow today!

@LD So your no fluff approach will make you the "future billionaire?"

Caleb

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Richard Van

13 years ago

So are we any closer to actually finding out what this fluff stuff is?

Its also quite hard to read so many peoples intelligent comments when they keep talking about fluff like it's some kind of definitive thing.

I have fluff on my carpet, fluff in my pocket. Is fluff in this sense BS, filler or in the OPs case relevant comprehensive material?

What is fluffety fluff?

EDIT. LD and Caleb are actually going to have a fight....about fluff.

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

So are we any closer to actually finding out what this fluff stuff is?

Its also quite hard to read so many peoples intelligent comments when they keep talking about fluff like it's some kind of definitive thing.

I have fluff on my carpet, fluff in my pocket. Is fluff in this sense BS, filler or in the OPs case relevant comprehensive material?

What is fluffety fluff?

It's that stuff in your pillow....

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Richard Van 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen

It's that stuff in your pillow....

No Caleb, they're feathers, or something. You're confusing the issue!

This is fluff and this is not in my pillow...
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- Caleb Spilchen 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Richard Van
  
  No Caleb, they're feathers, or something. You're confusing the issue!
  
  This is fluff and this is not in my pillow...
  
  It looks more like a dust bunny.. But seriously, real fluff is when you put a pic of some fluff in your book...
  
  Ok sorry, didn't mean to derail.
  
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- paulie888 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Richard Van
  
  No Caleb, they're feathers, or something. You're confusing the issue!
  
  This is fluff and this is not in my pillow...
  
  Richard, I think I'd very much prefer goose down feathers instead!
  
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paulie888 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

EDIT. LD and Caleb are actually going to have a fight....about fluff.

Well, perhaps we'll see a not-so-nice pillow fight in the offing? LOL
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- Caleb Spilchen 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by paulie888
  
  Well, perhaps we'll see a not-so-nice pillow fight in the offing? LOL
  
  PILLOW FIGHT!.
  
  {and that's how us marketers settle FLUFF debates}.
  
  Caleb
  
  Edit: My matured instincts tell me to stop derailing the thread
  
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  paulie888 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen
  
  PILLOW FIGHT!.
  
  {and that's how us marketers settle FLUFF debates}.
  
  Caleb
  
  Make sure you play nicely and hit above the belt, LOL!
  
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  Caleb Spilchen 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by paulie888
  
  Make sure you play nicely and hit above the belt, LOL!
  
  Read the edit to my last post Paul .
  
  And not happenin
  
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paulie888

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen

Right Paul,

But there is also "good fluff", like when they explain things in detail step by step. You talk about flipping through 50 pages, that could be 50 pages of instructionals and buying domains, which might help certain people.

There really is no such thing as fluff.

Caleb

Of course Caleb, the "good fluff" is what makes the difference between a helpful/comprehensive product and an incomplete one, as I've elaborated on above.

Paul

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Maddi 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Laura B

I'm not fat, I'm fluffy.

Hence giving 'No fluff' a whole new meaning.

On a serious note, things that you've described aren't fluff like many others have already said.

Beating around the bush, without getting to the point, primarily messing around with words to make your product bigger is fluff. When the repetition of the point in different words from different angles provides no real value, thats fluff.

I have a tendency to sometimes repeat what I've said in different angles in my video products, but the predominant reason is to explain the thing better, rather than to increase the video length for the so called 'thud factor'.

If I find my self repeating with no real value or a different angle, I edit or re-record.

I once wrote a report on the 'Ultimate Success Mindset' for Online Entrepreneurs, each heading/topic could be a book in itself, and since that is a topic I'm passionate about, I could actually write it too. But it was kept at around 20 pages for some reasons. That makes it no fluff I guess

Maddi 'fluff me' Murtaza
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Janice Sperry

13 years ago

I am becoming increasingly concerned that lazy marketers are using this idea to create incomplete systems and products. There is "No Fluff" because they can't be bothered to supply a coherent and complete product.

I think you make a good point here. I hate fluff but it is easy to spot it and skim through it. However, if instructions, details, or other necessary information is left out you are sunk.

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Rezbi

13 years ago

Fluff can make a bland product more enjoyable.

That's probably why it's easier to watch Frank Kern's stuff than a lot of others that might actually be better.

Let's face it, marketing is hardly the most interesting subject in the world.

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paulie888

13 years ago

Aww, I had ringside seats to this and was looking forward to it..

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Caleb Spilchen 13 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

Aww, I had ringside seats to this and was looking forward to it..

*RINKSIDE.

We pillow fight on ICE in Canada
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I want some "Fluff", Please can I have some "Fluff" ?

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