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A quick tip to build a list of BUYERS with paypal and your autoresponder

by Gb2
56 replies
A quick tip to build a list of BUYERS with paypal and your autoresponder

I just set this up and it works a treat!

When you sell a product through paypal with a “buy now” button you have the option to send the purchaser to a web page on completion.

Normally you would send them to a download page to collect their product and that would be it.

But if you use an autoresponder like Aweber you can send them direct to a simple "Name and email submit Download Form" This can be either hosted by them or set up on a separate page of your site with only the form on.

So once someone makes a purchase through paypal they are then taken to your BUYER ONLY opt-in form to download the product, they then fill in their name and email and are either emailed the product or a link to download it.

Thus building you a list of highly targeted end users who have bought from you

This may appear to be a bit of a long buying process for the buyer but if you give clear instructions to the buyer it works like a treat.

Then you can set up a courteous follow up email for them to receive in a few days time and you can begin to build your relationship knowing they are a good BUYING customer. win-win

Geoff

P.S. if you don't use aweber, and need an autoresponder, they have a $1 trial on just now
#autoresponder #build #buyers #list #paypal #quick #tip
  • Profile picture of the author Effective Marketing
    Thanks for the tip buddy! I will work on it write away.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    You'll want to check with Aweber to see if this is acceptable within their policies before putting this in place. Yes, I know a lot of people do it. I'd still check first. Lots of people do things that could get them trouble if they were called on it.

    You're better off auto-adding them than using this approach. The auto-subscribe option is allowed, assuming they've paid for a product.


    Paul

    Edit: I believe that Paypal really frowns on the "must subscribe before getting a paid for product" approach, too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gb2
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      You'll want to check with Aweber to see if this is acceptable within their policies before putting this in place. Yes, I know a lot of people do it. I'd still check first. Lots of people do things that could get them trouble if they were called on it.

      You're better off auto-adding them than using this approach. The auto-subscribe option is allowed, assuming they've paid for a product.


      Paul

      Edit: I believe that Paypal really frowns on the "must subscribe before getting a paid for product" approach, too.
      Where do paypal say that? I wouldn't want to go against ANY policy.

      Cant see any problem as long as your not going to spam em' !
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Originally Posted by Gb2 View Post

        Where do paypal say that? I wouldn't want to go against ANY policy.
        I don't think it's spelled out, but I seem to recall seeing comments to that effect from folks who'd gotten bitten by it.

        All I'm saying is "check first."


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Gb2
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I don't think it's spelled out, but I seem to recall seeing comments to that effect from folks who'd gotten bitten by it.

          All I'm saying is "check first."


          Paul
          No Worries Paul, I'll look into that. I do see your point and the point of almost forcing people to subscribe, but they can always unsubscribe later once they have the download.

          I've come across it with clickbank stuff in the past, but just find i's a good way to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak, and it's quite easy to set up for anyone using paypal and an autoresponder.

          Geoff
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Edit: I believe that Paypal really frowns on the "must subscribe before getting a paid for product" approach, too.
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I don't think it's spelled out, but I seem to recall seeing comments to that effect from folks who'd gotten bitten by it.
          One of my article-writing clients, who's a friend, had a very detailed email conversation with PayPal about exactly this point. I have actually seen the emails, myself. The outcome of that conversation was exactly as Paul rightly describes, above.

          PayPal's position is that a forced opt-in before product-delivery, after someone has paid for a product, if they haven't been clearly told before paying that this is part of the contract of sale, is "bad news" and they won't tolerate it.

          They did, however, say (to this one person, anyway) that they don't mind an "optional" one ("opt in here for free future updates or proceed direct to download your product" was acceptable).

          I think they're right not to allow this. It is, after all, an attempt to change the conditions of sale after payment.

          "Ok, I have your money, but by the way, you don't get delivery of the product unless you opt in as well"?! Who wants to do business like that?

          I've also seen posts in much earlier threads here from Warriors who have had PayPal accounts closed because a customer has complained to PayPal that they bought something and couldn't get delivery of the product without also opting in without having been told first that that was part of the deal.

          An opt-in is "worth something".

          This is clear to all of us who give "free reports" or "free products" or "free anything" in exchange for someone opting in. We are acknowledging, as marketers, that their opt in is worth something to us.

          No surprise there.

          So if someone pays for your product, demanding an opt-in at that point and making delivery of the product conditional on it is effectively saying "No, I want more than just the $x you paid: I want your opt-in too and that's part of the price".

          I've been caught with this myself, as a customer.

          There are Warriors doing this, today and every day.

          I haven't ever asked for a refund because of it, but I do instinctively feel like it, and I do sometimes unsubscribe, and I don't normally buy from that person again.

          It's bad and it's wrong, and PayPal are right not to allow it. It's bad for the "internet marketing industry", collectively. Just my stroppy perspective.
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
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      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      You'll want to check with Aweber to see if this is acceptable within their policies before putting this in place. Yes, I know a lot of people do it. I'd still check first. Lots of people do things that could get them trouble if they were called on it.

      You're better off auto-adding them than using this approach. The auto-subscribe option is allowed, assuming they've paid for a product.


      Paul

      Edit: I believe that Paypal really frowns on the "must subscribe before getting a paid for product" approach, too.

      Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. Neither Aweber nor paypal make any mention of this in their Terms of Service.
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  • Profile picture of the author indexphp
    I honestly dont think it's that big of a deal. There is a better way to go about transferring buyers to their own list via the automation section of Aweber though. I haven't used Aweber in a long time (no single optin heh), but if I remember correctly you just need to place a pixel on the thank-you page and those visitors will be unsubscribed from the prospect and moved over to your new list (buyers) automagically
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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      Originally Posted by indexphp View Post

      I honestly dont think it's that big of a deal.
      This interests me. Do you mind if I ask why you don't think it's that big of a deal?

      Clearly you acknowledge that an opt-in is "worth something" and "has value" (otherwise you wouldn't want it), so why do you think it's ok to take someone's money for a product and then say to them, after they've paid, "no delivery of the product you've just paid for unless you also give me the extra value of opting in", and why not tell them that first so that they can enter a contract with you knowing the conditions of sale before they pay? If it's not such a big deal, why not just do it in a way that none of your customers can object to?
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      • Profile picture of the author indexphp
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        TDo you mind if I ask why you don't think it's that big of a deal?
        Because 99% of people expect to "register" when they buy a product from a company online. I'd guess only 1% would really "complain" about it. And I think this is more of a problem in the whole noob marketing niche where everybody know what is going on behind the scenes with optins and whatnot. Even so, you can just hit the unsubscribe button! A normal consumer is any other market will not complain

        You guys really dont need to make it sound criminal
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        • Profile picture of the author Coby
          Originally Posted by indexphp View Post

          Because 99% of people expect to "register" when they buy a product from a company online. I'd guess only 1% would really "complain" about it. And I think this is more of a problem in the whole noob marketing niche where everybody know what is going on behind the scenes with optins and whatnot. Even so, you can just hit the unsubscribe button! A normal consumer is any other market will not complain

          You guys really dont need to make it sound criminal
          I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make it sound criminal, as I have used the same method. I was just trying to provide an option for those interested.
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          • Profile picture of the author indexphp
            Originally Posted by Coby View Post

            I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make it sound criminal, as I have used the same method. I was just trying to provide an option for those interested.
            I actually didn't even read your post until after I posted... so you're cool.

            But I'll throw it out there again. It's not that big of a deal. I've done this in huge volume before and I think I had *ONE* person complain.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by indexphp View Post

          Because 99% of people expect to "register" when they buy a product from a company online. I'd guess only 1% would really "complain" about it. And I think this is more of a problem in the whole noob marketing niche where everybody know what is going on behind the scenes with optins and whatnot. Even so, you can just hit the unsubscribe button! A normal consumer is any other market will not complain

          You guys really dont need to make it sound criminal
          Just because people don't complain to you about it doesn't mean that, done the wrong way in the wrong jurisdiction, such a practice would NOT be criminal.

          Besides, complaints to you as the product vendor aren't the ones you really need to worry about. It's the complaints from the unbalanced or paranoid buyer who decides to complain to the FTC, the local AG or whatever other ruling body they think can stir up trouble for you.

          You are likely right - a "normal" consumer won't complain. But most of the trouble is never caused by normal consumers. They just take their money elsewhere. It's the zealots and nut-jobs you have to worry about.

          I've always thought that one of the best ways to lie is to tell part of the truth. Switching terms - as in requiring a registration without disclosing that requirement up front - feels a lot like lying to me. So I don't do it...
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    I think a good 'white-hat' way of doing this is too just send the buyer to the download page like normal but also include an optin form on the download page and draw lots of attention to it and make sure they know the benefits of opting in and nearly every buyer will opt-in.

    I do this with lots of success. This keeps me cool with PayPal, cool with my autoresponder, and helps the relationship with the 'buyer' as they aren't "forced" onto my list.

    Hope this helps
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    • Profile picture of the author cashcow
      Originally Posted by Coby View Post

      I think a good 'white-hat' way of doing this is too just send the buyer to the download page like normal but also include an optin form on the download page and draw lots of attention to it and make sure they know the benefits of opting in and nearly every buyer will opt-in.

      I do this with lots of success. This keeps me cool with PayPal, cool with my autoresponder, and helps the relationship with the 'buyer' as they aren't "forced" onto my list.

      Hope this helps
      I like this method myself and it works great! The thing is that when you do it this way, you are not only getting a list of buyers but a list of buyers that want your emails. Much better than a list of people who didn't know you were going to send them emails and might get cranky about it.

      Lee
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        And...

        For $10 per month, you can use ejunkie as a payment processor... and redirect them to an opt in page.

        And they send the money to Paypal.


        Oh and if you want to get fancy...

        I use a membership script for all my downloads, so after payment they have to create an account to get their goods. Of course the membership site is integrated with my autoresponder.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          And...

          For $10 per month, you can use ejunkie as a payment processor... and redirect them to an opt in page.

          And they send the money to Paypal.
          And, if you want it, they'll stamp the buyer's details on every page of a PDF, just to discourage people from uploading it to torrent and subfusc-headwear sites, and circulating it too often to others.
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          • Profile picture of the author TimG
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            And, if you want it, they'll stamp the buyer's details on every page of a PDF, just to discourage people from uploading it to torrent and subfusc-headwear sites, and circulating it too often to others.
            Awesome......I was not aware of this and have been trying to figure out how to keep stuff from getting uploaded to those sites.

            Thank you Alexa!!

            Respectfully,
            Tim
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            • Profile picture of the author halmo
              The name says it all: "opt-in" ... not "forced-in."

              If a customer is required to do something else after payment (unless it was specified before, as Alexa said it), it is a "forced-in."

              The "fine print" in written contracts could be somewhat of a comparison, although, the "fine print" issue was still more acceptable than a "forced-in" because it was, indeed, included in the contract -- yet, they still enacted a law about it (required minimum font size, etc.).

              If a "forced-in" (I guess I may have just invented this term) takes place, a customer might see it as dishonesty, and assume the same from the vendor in the future (spam, etc.).

              Of course, not everybody feels that way, but probably more than enough people do.

              My two cents.
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              • Profile picture of the author sal64
                My final comment on this topic...

                Legalities aside... if you don't do this because you don't like it being done to you, then just remember that you are not your customer, and your own prejudices may mean that you're leaving $$$ on the table.

                And frankly, if I bust my butt building a business, I don't want to leave a single penny on the table.

                Cheers.
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                • Profile picture of the author Coby
                  Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                  I should have grabbed a screen capture, and now I can't find the url, but...

                  I just saw another way to handle things, or at least a variation. As best I can recall, it went something like this:

                  "Thank you for your purchase. As a necessary part of the transaction, your PayPal email address was recorded as the buyer. Should it be necessary to contact you about this product (updates, mainly), we'll use that address. If you would rather receive updates at a different email, please use the form below to let us know which email to use. If you'd like additional updates, tips on using your new product, and other hand-picked special offers, just tick the checkbox before submitting the form. Thanks again for choosing us."

                  Then came the form, followed by a link that said something like "Use my PayPal address for product updates only and take me to the download area."

                  Best of both worlds...
                  I seen a similar page recently too . . . I think it was for Digi List builder plugin that I bought as a WSO . . .

                  Although I don't mind being "forced" onto a list I was impressed with the "transparency" . . .

                  Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                  My final comment on this topic...

                  Legalities aside... if you don't do this because you don't like it being done to you, then just remember that you are not your customer, and your own prejudices may mean that you're leaving $$$ on the table.

                  And frankly, if I bust my butt building a business, I don't want to leave a single penny on the table.

                  Cheers.
                  I don't disagree with you . . . BUT someone could reverse this and say the same and say that by ALIENATING customers you are leaving $$$ on the table . . .

                  The reason I stopped doing the automatic list add (using DPD) was b/c the confirmation rate was not all that great, and those that did confirm weren't very "sticky" . . .

                  This is why I started using the method of putting the opt-in on download page . . . This has helped my confirmation rates become almost 100% and I'd say over 95% of buyers choose to opt-in to the buyers list . . .

                  So, for me I WAS actually leaving money on the table by AUTO-ADDING them . . .

                  So in the end, all marketers must decide which method they are going to use . . . Weigh the pros and cons and decide which is best for you . . .

                  Some people want numbers, some want quality . . . Find which method provides what you are looking for and go for it!

                  Good Luck
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                  • Profile picture of the author sal64
                    That's a fair point you raise.

                    Always good to see different arguments put forward, and we all learn from them.

                    It appears the key is to have a system in place whereby you gather their details upon payment itself.

                    I mean, you cannot get a more qualified prospect than a customer who has just purchased something from you.

                    Cheers.




                    Originally Posted by Coby View Post

                    I seen a similar page recently too . . . I think it was for Digi List builder plugin that I bought as a WSO . . .

                    Although I don't mind being "forced" onto a list I was impressed with the "transparency" . . .



                    I don't disagree with you . . . BUT someone could reverse this and say the same and say that by ALIENATING customers you are leaving $$$ on the table . . .

                    The reason I stopped doing the automatic list add (using DPD) was b/c the confirmation rate was not all that great, and those that did confirm weren't very "sticky" . . .

                    This is why I started using the method of putting the opt-in on download page . . . This has helped my confirmation rates become almost 100% and I'd say over 95% of buyers choose to opt-in to the buyers list . . .

                    So, for me I WAS actually leaving money on the table by AUTO-ADDING them . . .

                    So in the end, all marketers must decide which method they are going to use . . . Weigh the pros and cons and decide which is best for you . . .

                    Some people want numbers, some want quality . . . Find which method provides what you are looking for and go for it!

                    Good Luck
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  • Profile picture of the author Rukshan
    Forcing Opt-in is not a great idea. When buyer gets the Download page, we can simply add another bonus free product with opt-in frame. In that time, most of buyers will signup to list. Because they want similar product from us.

    Regards
    Rukshan
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  • Profile picture of the author ~Davor Debrecin~
    As most of you said, it is a big deal because if it's worth for you, then it costs your buyers as well.

    So doing it automatically or forcing them to optin is a big no-no.

    But, there's always a better way of doing something, right?

    As Rukshan said, just treat your offer to them to optin as an upsell - give them an unadvertised bonus (one time offer type of thing) if they choose to opt in as well. Under the optin box put download links to the stuff they bought.

    Surely, you won't get as many people to your customer list this way, but people that do optin will be of much more value and this will surpass the loss in "quantity".

    Take care and merry christmas!

    ~Davor
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    • Profile picture of the author REHughes
      I'm not sure about the following method, but I have seen it used and have actually had to go through it myself a few times when purchasing.

      I didn't find it really bothersome or anything, as I normally assume when I purchase something the product owner will be in contact, and am not even sure of its legitimacy, so I'll just throw it out and some of you can comment on it.

      It simply utilizes having the Buy Now Button linking directly to step one which is an opt-in form. After optin in cutomer is directed straight to the payment page depending on the processor you are using.

      It seems simple but am not sure of the validity of it.

      Only problem is that they can choose not to confirm if you legitimately use double optins. That still doesn't deny them their ability to purchase or anything. Just another step in the buying process.

      Of course, this might deter some from continuing, I don't know.

      I have never used this as I am just getting started, but am just saying I have seen this done.

      Any thoughts here would be welcome also.

      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by REHughes View Post

        I'm not sure about the following method, but I have seen it used and have actually had to go through it myself a few times when purchasing.

        I didn't find it really bothersome or anything, as I normally assume when I purchase something the product owner will be in contact, and am not even sure of its legitimacy, so I'll just throw it out and some of you can comment on it.

        It simply utilizes having the Buy Now Button linking directly to step one which is an opt-in form. After optin in cutomer is directed straight to the payment page depending on the processor you are using.
        It seems simple but am not sure of the validity of it.

        Any thoughts here would be welcome also.

        Robert
        The difference between this method, and the forced opt-in being discussed (and generally cussed) is that the opt-in here comes before payment. Anyone who does not want to opt in can back out without any financial action.

        I see no problem with it...

        On the other hand, taking someone's money and then holding the purchase hostage until the email address is given up as ransom is silly, and under some circumstances illegal.

        What if, after buying a car and paying for it, the dealer says "oh, yeah, just one more thing - we can't give you your keys until you take the extended warranty..."?
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Just another thing that I don't think has been addressed here...

          If a customer comes from an original opt in list for your free product... how else can you get them to move from one list to another?

          That's the main reason why I use the opt in page... so they go on to my customer list as opposed to my subscriber list.

          We can argue the semantics about this, but over 6 years I have not had a single complaint. If you do not capture their details, then you're leaving $$ on the table. And because it's done after they buy, I doubt I have lost a single sale because of it.

          As a marketer, I find it absurd that people are happy to sell products without knowing who their customer is... and have an issue with sending a product via a download link.

          Yes, Paypal has a policy, but there are ways to circumnavigate the issues.

          Sheesh, there are even clickbank scripts that you can buy for a few bucks that will do the job.

          Can anyone please tell me what the ethical difference is between running a squeeze page after they buy and using 1 shopping cart that gathers their email details with the purchase and adds them to your autoresponder????

          In both instances, the same objective is being reached from the marketer's point of view.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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            Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

            Can anyone please tell me what the ethical difference is between running a squeeze page after they buy and using 1 shopping cart that gathers their email details with the purchase and adds them to your autoresponder????
            Yes; I can.

            One is an attempt to vary the terms of the contract of sale after payment has been made and the other isn't.

            No sophistry involved there at all: this is simply factual - both in law and in reality.

            That's why PayPal close down the accounts of marketers who pull this trick, at the first complaint.

            Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

            In both instances, the same objective is being reached from the marketer's point of view.
            It really isn't.

            A similar objective is being reached, not the same objective: in one case the marketer has a list of customers who have also opted in to receive email; in the other case he has a list of customers who haven't also opted in to receive email, together with the resulting risk that some of them may subsequently "cry 'spam' ".

            Nobody, even by saying "sheesh", a welcome interjection though that always is in such conversations, will convince me that these two situations are exactly the same.

            Since you ask.
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            • Profile picture of the author sal64
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Yes; I can.

              One is an attempt to vary the terms of the contract of sale after payment has been made and the other isn't.

              No sophistry involved there at all: this is simply factual - both in law and in reality.

              That's why PayPal close down the accounts of marketers who pull this trick, at the first complaint.



              It really isn't.

              A similar objective is being reached, not the same objective: in one case the marketer has a list of customers who have also opted in to receive email; in the other case he has a list of customers who haven't also opted in to receive email, together with the resulting risk that some of them may subsequently "cry 'spam' ".

              Nobody, even by saying "sheesh", a welcome interjection though that always is in such conversations, will convince me that these two situations are exactly the same.

              Since you ask.

              What variation of contract?

              If I state on my sales page that once they pay, they will be required to finalize heir order etc... to receive their download.

              Not that this applies to me...

              Like I said, I have 2 methods of collecting data:

              Firstly, for a lousy $10 per month, I use ejunkie to circumnavigate the paypal issue.

              Secondly for my main site I use a membership area which integrates with my autoresponder.

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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                What variation of contract?
                The one described above - applying an additional condition to product delivery after payment.

                Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                If I state on my sales page that once they pay, they will be required to finalize heir order etc... to receive their download.
                Then you're not doing what's described above at all, but disclosing all the terms of the contract of sale up-front, and you don't have the problem in the first place.

                PayPal understandably and wisely said, in correspondence with my client, that it wasn't a problem for them at all, if he disclosed it clearly as a condition before people pay.

                Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                Not that this applies to me...
                No, I appreciate this, Sal ... we're only "theorising", here.

                Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

                I use ejunkie to circumnavigate the paypal issue.
                This is fine, too, of course - the PayPal account considerations can obviously apply only to people who have linked e-Junkie with their PayPal accounts and are still using PayPal to collect the money.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
              Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

              Yes; I can.

              One is an attempt to vary the terms of the contract of sale after payment has been made and the other isn't.

              No sophistry involved there at all: this is simply factual - both in law and in reality.

              That's why PayPal close down the accounts of marketers who pull this trick, at the first complaint.



              It really isn't.

              A similar objective is being reached, not the same objective: in one case the marketer has a list of customers who have also opted in to receive email; in the other case he has a list of customers who haven't also opted in to receive email, together with the resulting risk that some of them may subsequently "cry 'spam' ".

              Nobody, even by saying "sheesh", a welcome interjection though that always is in such conversations, will convince me that these two situations are exactly the same.

              Since you ask.
              Damn a smart woman is sexy to me....

              ***looks around to be sure his girlfriend didn't see that post*** LOL

              J/K Alexa but you do make some very valid points here and I for one don't agree with the OP's method either.
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                I should have grabbed a screen capture, and now I can't find the url, but...

                I just saw another way to handle things, or at least a variation. As best I can recall, it went something like this:

                "Thank you for your purchase. As a necessary part of the transaction, your PayPal email address was recorded as the buyer. Should it be necessary to contact you about this product (updates, mainly), we'll use that address. If you would rather receive updates at a different email, please use the form below to let us know which email to use. If you'd like additional updates, tips on using your new product, and other hand-picked special offers, just tick the checkbox before submitting the form. Thanks again for choosing us."

                Then came the form, followed by a link that said something like "Use my PayPal address for product updates only and take me to the download area."

                Best of both worlds...
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  • Profile picture of the author markowe
    What about memberships then? Scripts like DAP put the buyer on the list as a matter of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author ruch1v
    This is seriously ridiculous, all it is is an opt in, all it will cost the customer is a few clicks, they can unsubscribe whenever they want, it's not like you're gonna hold them hostage or take the product back off them if they do unsubscribe.

    Anyone who's outraged by this and complains really needs to get out more, there's alot of things in this world that are a whole lot worse than having to put you're email address in before you can get a product.

    People are saying that an opt in is of value and therefore costs the customer, costs them what? Other than 10 seconds of their time, which I'm sure they'll get over, like I said earlier, they are free to unsubscribe if they wish. I have plenty of people that'll opt in for my free gift and then unsubscribe. It cost me money to have the plugin developed, but I'm not gonna email them and bitch about it, there's more important things in life to deal with.
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      This is seriously ridiculous, all it is is an opt in, all it will cost the customer is a few clicks, they can unsubscribe whenever they want, it's not like you're gonna hold them hostage or take the product back off them if they do unsubscribe.

      Anyone who's outraged by this and complains really needs to get out more, there's alot of things in this world that are a whole lot worse than having to put you're email address in before you can get a product.

      People are saying that an opt in is of value and therefore costs the customer, costs them what? Other than 10 seconds of their time, which I'm sure they'll get over, like I said earlier, they are free to unsubscribe if they wish. I have plenty of people that'll opt in for my free gift and then unsubscribe. It cost me money to have the plugin developed, but I'm not gonna email them and bitch about it, there's more important things in life to deal with.
      Merry Christmas Everyone,

      In reference to the comments quoted. On a public forum it may not always be the best business sense to relate your feelings in this manner.

      Customers are the lifeline of your business. Saying 'who cares" when it clearly is a major issue that has been discussed on this forum more times then I can count is really not the best way to convey a customer friendly service or experience.

      people seem to be looking at the customer like "you want to deal with me this is how you must do it."
      When customer A comes to your website and decides your product is a must have for them. that is enough.They have just made a choice to buy from you rather then the millions of other websites they can go to.

      To then withhold the product until optin is completed is nothing short of shady and that will bite you in the end. I don't care if a billion people do it. Anything that is done to make the customer feel upset,deceived,abused,or put off is nothing that any business people should be looking at doing.

      At least not if you want to have returning happy customers. Once a client pays for the product it no longer is the sellers it now is the purchasers to then put any demands on the customer is then rather moronic. If however on the download page you put. to ensure you receive all future updates and get our hot newsletter containing freebies updates and tips enter your email address below (updates only available to registered users.)
      Something that gives an understanding of hey I am going to send you updates as well as other offers etc.

      Look at the customer like they are your invalid mother you want to do everything you can for them,make sure the experience is as pleasant as possible. remember there are billions of people in the world make your business stand out and put the customer first then you will see a great thing happen-repeat business
      Merry Christmas
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      This is seriously ridiculous, all it is is an opt in, all it will cost the customer is a few clicks, they can unsubscribe whenever they want, it's not like you're gonna hold them hostage or take the product back off them if they do unsubscribe.

      Anyone who's outraged by this and complains really needs to get out more, there's alot of things in this world that are a whole lot worse than having to put you're email address in before you can get a product.
      Yes, there are a lot of things in the world that are worse than this.

      And whatever one thinks of them, there are also people in the world who don't want to do business with vendors who won't disclose the terms of sale before payment. Especially when it's so easy to do anyway.

      It doesn't matter what one thinks: it matters what one's customers think.

      And if one has a PayPal account which one doesn't want to get closed down, it matters what PayPal thinks, too, of course. Hence the discussion.

      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      People are saying that an opt in is of value
      Marketers are saying that, by offering something of value ("free reports" or whatever) in exchange for it. This is absolutely unarguable. Why would a marketer so much want his/her customers to opt in if it had no value for him/her? :confused:

      It has demonstrable, proven value to us.

      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      there's more important things in life to deal with.
      I agree.

      Do you think the Warriors who've had their PayPal accounts closed down for pulling this trick - when one person complained - would necessarily feel the same as you about it, though? Or might their opinions be valid, too?
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      This is seriously ridiculous, all it is is an opt in
      If an opt-in is so worthless, why do you want it?

      I mean, all it is is an opt-in. Why are you trying to get it? The guy just gave you money. What, that wasn't enough? You need his email, too?

      What for? It's just an opt-in. Who cares?
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    • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
      Originally Posted by ruch1v View Post

      This is seriously ridiculous, all it is is an opt in, all it will cost the customer is a few clicks, they can unsubscribe whenever they want, it's not like you're gonna hold them hostage or take the product back off them if they do unsubscribe.
      No, it's not like you're gonna take the product back off them if they unsubscribe, but why should they have to subscribe in the first place, to get the product they've paid for? I hate forced opt-in, and I do unsubscribe as soon as I've got my product.

      What's wrong with setting your payment method up so that they're added to your list automatically, and then have to confirm their subscription? That way they've got the choice AFTER they've received their product, and getting what they paid for isn't dependent on "a few clicks".
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    Or you could try this Automatically Add Customers To A Buyers List

    (Unless you're running a membership/subscription site)
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  • Profile picture of the author Zero
    Mine redirects to a thank you page which informs them of their product has been shipped to them, and asks for an opt in to access their digital bonuses. I make it clear they can remove themselves from the list at anytime.

    I've not sent any traffic as of yet to this site, is that unethical/wrong?
    Though i may well just switch to adding an opt in form on the download page, so if i get any opt-ins, it'll be from people who actively made the decision to sign up instead of it being a step for them to get their digital bonuses.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
    For anyone who isn't taking the opt-in and paypal thing seriously...You really should.

    Paypal can easily, and INSTANTLY, and WITHOUT WARNING seize every penny you have in their account, and FOR ANY REASON...(as per their TOS)

    Me personally, I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

    I just use one simple line of text, under every single buy button on the WSO page. The line of text says, 'your product will be delivered via email', no THAT is really not a big deal.

    People usually assume they're going to be on a list, because that's part of the IM game. Therefore, stating so on your sales page can be no harm done correct?

    Anyone here can feel free to check out my WSOs and you'll see how I clearly state they'll get their product via e-mail after purchase.

    What's crazy is, and many of you just don't realize, some people just don't utilize e-mail! Believe it or not, it's true, some people just don't use it.

    Now, all it takes is ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE to complain to Paypal about this and they'll seize everything you got. All of it. Every penny. And they may, or may not give it back!

    When you're dealing with real stuff, MONEY, you have to follow all the rules whether you agree with them or not.

    Me personally, not only is it HONEST to say up front that your buyers will get their purchase via e-mail, but it'll save your rear from a really, really bad day!

    Just let em know what's gonna happen when they hit that buy button and you're OK, and I highly recommend you do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

      Me personally, I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.

      I just use one simple line of text, under every single buy button on the WSO page. The line of text says, 'your product will be delivered via email', no THAT is really not a big deal.
      Adam, you could still be in trouble. If you use that email opt-in for anything but product delivery, you've either changed the buyer agreement unilaterally or you've spammed the buyers by sending something other than what the list is for.

      True, most people will know they're going to be on a list. Then again, most of the PITA we deal with don't come from most of the people.

      All you need is one troublemaker, and you could end up back in the weeds...
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      • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Adam, you could still be in trouble. If you use that email opt-in for anything but product delivery, you've either changed the buyer agreement unilaterally or you've spammed the buyers by sending something other than what the list is for.

        True, most people will know they're going to be on a list. Then again, most of the PITA we deal with don't come from most of the people.

        All you need is one troublemaker, and you could end up back in the weeds...
        That's not true. Upon receipt of their first e-mail they know what to expect via e-mail (at least I say so in an immediate follow up message) in which case it's made perfectly clear that if all you want is the product and no updates/notifications/emails you can unsubscribe.

        There is no change to the buyer agreement there, you state product will be delivered via email, and then you state they can unsubscribe when you deliver the product.

        All you have to do is say so, there's nothing else you can do.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

          That's not true. Upon receipt of their first e-mail they know what to expect via e-mail (at least I say so in an immediate follow up message) in which case it's made perfectly clear that if all you want is the product and no updates/notifications/emails you can unsubscribe.

          There is no change to the buyer agreement there, you state product will be delivered via email, and then you state they can unsubscribe when you deliver the product.

          All you have to do is say so, there's nothing else you can do.
          Thanks for a deeper look into your process. I'd have no problem with this type of setup. Left as you did when I made my reply, what I said was true.

          Delivering the product via download links in the first email, and disclosing that staying on the list will result in future emails - including additional sales offers - works for me.

          Setting expectations, and then living up to those expectations, is all I ask as a buyer.

          If you tell me I'll get product updates and notifications, and then every other day I hear about a new launch and how you twisted your buddy's arm to get me a discount if I buy through your link, is not living up to the expectations set up in the original deal. So I'll likely mark your email as spam before unsubscribing.

          (I'm not saying you, specifically, do this. I'm using 'you' in its general sense.)

          The whole issue boils down to two things, whatever mechanics you choose to use:

          > Tell me the truth about what to expect.

          > Give me a choice before I take the next step.
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          • Profile picture of the author Adam Roy
            Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

            Thanks for a deeper look into your process. I'd have no problem with this type of setup. Left as you did when I made my reply, what I said was true.

            Delivering the product via download links in the first email, and disclosing that staying on the list will result in future emails - including additional sales offers - works for me.

            Setting expectations, and then living up to those expectations, is all I ask as a buyer.

            If you tell me I'll get product updates and notifications, and then every other day I hear about a new launch and how you twisted your buddy's arm to get me a discount if I buy through your link, is not living up to the expectations set up in the original deal. So I'll likely mark your email as spam before unsubscribing.

            (I'm not saying you, specifically, do this. I'm using 'you' in its general sense.)

            The whole issue boils down to two things, whatever mechanics you choose to use:

            > Tell me the truth about what to expect.

            > Give me a choice before I take the next step.
            Agreed. Now here's another quick question...

            Would you prefer, as a buyer, that I actually state in my follow up message you can unsubscribe if you don't want any e-mails, as opposed to the default link provided at the bottom of every email? Just wondering.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

              Agreed. Now here's another quick question...

              Would you prefer, as a buyer, that I actually state in my follow up message you can unsubscribe if you don't want any e-mails, as opposed to the default link provided at the bottom of every email? Just wondering.
              Many people, especially outside of the IM niches, have been trained not to trust the default links provided. How many spam scare stories in the mainstream media tell people NOT to click the unsubscribe link at the bottom of the email? So they hit the spam button or filter the messages out.

              I used to put the unsubscribe link right at the top of one of my newsletters, like this:

              "You, or someone using email address [email] signed up for this newsletter on [date] from [source]. And asking for this newsletter is the only way to get it.

              We know things change. One thing you should know about me - I don't believe in taking hostages. If you would rather not get these newsletters, click this link. We'll go our separate ways with no hard feelings. Fair enough?

              [link]"

              I had the same link with standard language at the bottom, in plain sight.

              The list never grew huge, only a couple of thousand at the peak. We lost the usual numbers from addresses going bad and bouncing, and such. But our unsubscribe rate was almost nothing.

              I believe it was a combination of reminding people that they had committed to getting it, plus holding the door open and almost asking them to leave.
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Adam Roy View Post

      For anyone who isn't taking the opt-in and paypal thing seriously...You really should.

      Paypal can easily, and INSTANTLY, and WITHOUT WARNING seize every penny you have in their account, and FOR ANY REASON...(as per their TOS)

      Me personally, I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.
      Everyone needs to quit being so ALARMIST. LOL

      True, paypal can freeze your account and have done so to many people, but not for anything like this.

      The simple truth is that paypal doesnt give a rats ass how you deliver the product, as long as you are clear and up-front about everything on the sales page.

      So, if your sales page says that they can download the product right after purchasing, then you should set it up that way.

      If your sales page DOESN'T say that, then you don't necessarily have to do that.
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  • Profile picture of the author JD Nunes
    I have an even faster way of adding buyers to my list: use PaySpree.com, they let you do that automatically, without the user having to type in their name or email.
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  • Profile picture of the author Millercus25
    (Unless you're running a membership/subscription site)
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    • Profile picture of the author Gb2
      Getting back to my opening post.....

      Firstly we are all in this business to sell stuff, and I'm guessing the vast majority on here do it ethically.

      It's a fun ( well I think so ) interesting, flexible, lucrative business to be in, but we do it to put food on the table - I do anyway.

      One method we use to SELL products is via email promotion.

      The whole point of this post was to "give a tip that I use" to fellow marketers that works for me and I thought it worth sharing.

      If you make a sale from a passing visitor with paypal then this method just helps you put them onto your list as a "person who's bought from you"

      This method ( and variants of it ) simply gives you an optin list direct in your autoresponder of people who HAVE bought your stuff so naturally you will treat them with respect, but also in this business of SELLING & PROMOTING the better and more information we have about our customer the better we can use that to build our business with them, especially when you have a list of people on a list who you know have ALL bought your product.

      They have not just took the freebee but are actually BUYING CUSTOMERS who have now paid for the "Gardening Guide", so the first advantage to this is you'll NOT sent em' any more offers to buy it. But you can now ask them for their opinion on it and if its you own guide you could ask them if they have any ideas to improve it further.....

      But more importantly, you can recommend relevant stuff to them, not always to sell but free stuff and recommendations and other tips and ideas.

      You can learn a lot about this from the emails you receive from other marketers and avoid their mistakes! How many times do you get the pre-formatted email from 3 or 4 people within the same day all promoting the same stuff!!!

      As for the comments suggesting this is unethical and edging on black hat and the like... I think your missing the point, this is business and the underlying point is to collect information from people who are interested in what you have to sell so you can sell it to them.

      Its a little like Amazon for example, they send you email's with offers and sales and things you may like because you bought XXXXXXXXXXXXX I think this is a great idea and have bought some great stuff on their recommendation that I didn't even know about!


      For many of us this is business, it's not a hobby or a new game on your xbox, but a way to feed your family.

      As long we don't spam em' with all kins of sh*t and won't be selling our list to the "Nigerian Prince and his money transfer offer" or the "Congratulations your the 1,000,000 th visitor and have just won dinner with the Queen of England" kind of people then what's the problem!

      If they don't want your "extra" free service of more relevant info then they will just hit UNSUBSCRIBE! I do


      I do also have a link to offer the buyer a direct download if they don't want to take advantage of further updates, special offers and free stuff - just more of a win-win if they don't use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gavin Abeyratne
    I use an optional opt in form after purchase that converts at 99.2%...

    Didn't realise people were losing so much sleep over this!
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by daedalus1 View Post

      I use an optional opt in form after purchase that converts at 99.2%...

      Didn't realize people were losing so much sleep over this!
      My thoughts exactly! I do the same thing and experience a very high opt-in rate as well. (almost 100%)

      Yes, this is not that big a deal. Yes you could do this for years without any trouble . . .

      However, I have heard of more than one warrior getting into trouble with PayPal or Aweber for using the "forced" in method.

      Why risk it for a measly 1%? I mean, they will probably unsubscribe anyways.

      Just my two cents. I am not saying there is a right way or a wrong way. Pick what your comfortable with and just keep the risks in mind
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  • Profile picture of the author richgrad
    there's an aweber-paypal integration that allows you to add customers automatically to a customer list
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  • Profile picture of the author mveeranath
    Originally Posted by Gb2 View Post

    A quick tip to build a list of BUYERS with paypal and your autoresponder

    I just set this up and it works a treat!

    When you sell a product through paypal with a "buy now" button you have the option to send the purchaser to a web page on completion.

    Normally you would send them to a download page to collect their product and that would be it.

    But if you use an autoresponder like Aweber you can send them direct to a simple "Name and email submit Download Form" This can be either hosted by them or set up on a separate page of your site with only the form on.

    So once someone makes a purchase through paypal they are then taken to your BUYER ONLY opt-in form to download the product, they then fill in their name and email and are either emailed the product or a link to download it.

    Thus building you a list of highly targeted end users who have bought from you

    This may appear to be a bit of a long buying process for the buyer but if you give clear instructions to the buyer it works like a treat.

    Then you can set up a courteous follow up email for them to receive in a few days time and you can begin to build your relationship knowing they are a good BUYING customer. win-win

    Geoff

    P.S. if you don't use aweber, and need an autoresponder, they have a $1 trial on just now
    Great tip Geoff.

    Building your list is the most profitable thing you can do in Internet Marketing or in any business.

    However, getting a list of BUYERS is INVALUABLE because you don't have to go through the strenuous process of eliminating the "freebie seekers" and finding the real buyers.

    But, most importantly, since your recent customer has just bought from you, you know that they are buyers and may be willing to buy another product from you (as most people don't just buy one thing, they buy more of the things they like and find value in).

    Thanks for this wonderful tip Geoff. Will apply it soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author jmlwebdesign01
    Thank You Dear for Sharing the valuable information..





    Thank you so much.
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