Getting threated by lawsuit nut - what would you do? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

Chris Grable

15 years ago

Mike,

Can you use the Way Back Machine to demonstrate that your use of the material predates their's?

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tradermike2008 15 years ago

I do not think so, because the my main site doesn't link back to the landing pages so I don't think I can navigate to them using the waybackmachine site. Will try though.

I can't even get their site so show up in it. It only gets about 10,000 visitors a month. Was getting less than that I believe until two months ago. They are running a google ppc campaign on one word. Guessing they just started it recently to get that traffic. I've advertised using that word in the past over the years, but haven't used it this year.
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sannyman

15 years ago

Dear Mike,

I know about a similar situation - a membership site that provided a couple of "especially designed" pages that were carrying a "designed by" notice in the footer; some members took it out and so, the scandal begun...

[edited, you just posted a reply:]

Try to locate the terms of use that came with it, if still available - check everywhere for it, including the sales page, with the hope that the original provider (Eben Pagan) to be the one in fault.

I wish you success and if possible, let us know how you will end it!

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by sannyman

Dear Mike,

I know about a similar situation - a membership site that provided a couple of "especially designed" pages that were carrying a "designed by" notice in the footer; some members took it out and so, the scandal begun...

[edited, you just posted a reply:]

Try to locate the terms of use that came with it, if still available - check everywhere for it, including the sales page, with the hope that the original provider (Eben Pagan) to be the one in fault.

I wish you success and if possible, let us know how you will end it!

Eben Pagan is'nt at fault. I'm fairly certain he is the one who invented the page. I didn't get it from his course, it was a template in someone else's course. Both people have used versions of that landing page for years - much longer than 2007, which is the date of the domain registration for this guys site.

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travlinguy

15 years ago

That's a pretty generic looking page. But... If it looks like theirs, and they were up first, and yours is a knockoff (only you know for sure), you might want to modify yours enough to make it different.

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tradermike2008 15 years ago

They haven't sent me an email telling me what their page looks like, so I do not know yet how similar they are. If they have exact wording I'll change it, but I doubt it, because I mention my name in mine and don't talk about penny stocks - which is what their website is about. So whatever they have I'm sure the wording is different. I am 100% sure that I've never even seen their website or heard of it before today.
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Mike McBride

15 years ago

What would I do? I would ask myself, "Did I copy the page in question?"

If the answer is yes, I'd take it down immediately. It doesn't matter if you think "he copied it from someone else himself;" that wouldn't excuse YOU copying it.

If the answer is no, respond to the person and state your case, preferably with facts and documentation.

That being said, it doesn't matter what WE think - it's your lawyer's opinion that really matters.

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tradermike2008 15 years ago

I didn't copy the page from his website. I never heard of him or his site before. I got the format from the Eban Pagan website and some templates in Kern's Mass Control Course. I'm not going to take it down and if he wants to get a lawyer oh well. I'll change it if he has the same wording as mine, but I doubt he does since I talk about myself on my landing page.
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Talltom1

15 years ago

Personally, the thought has occurred to me that he might be in the business of legal arbitrage. i.e. threatening people, then 'reluctantly' settling out of court.

Don't cave in easily...

Talltom

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Talltom1

Personally, the thought has occurred to me that he might be in the business of legal arbitrage. i.e. threatening people, then 'reluctantly' settling out of court.

Don't cave in easily...

Talltom

I had thought that too. I do not know who the person is though. He doesn't have any contact info under his domain registration. Guess I'll find out if he is serious.

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SuzanneH

15 years ago

It could be that he had the page made for him and his webmaster used the same template you did, and so now he thinks you copied it... Just a thought...

One thing I don't understand is why in the world would you change your page if he has the same wording as you and you wrote it originally? Sounds like a strange thing to do...

Suzanne

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by SuzanneH

It could be that he had the page made for him and his webmaster used the same template you did, and so now he thinks you copied it... Just a thought...

One thing I don't understand is why in the world would you change your page if he has the same wording as you and you wrote it originally? Sounds like a strange thing to do...

Suzanne

Either that is the case or this is a lawsuit nut trying to make money. Yeah, it is very unlikely he would use the same wording on my page since it talks about me personally, uses my name etc. So wouldn't make sense. Guess need to see what he says next to get a better idea of what is going on. I replied saying I didn't copy him and want to see the exact page he is talking about. I also asked him to give me his phone number. Hopefully we can straighten this out. If not looks like I'll be getting a lawyer and wasting money on this. But thanks for your input makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt and that wasn't my first reaction. I've been in business on the internet for almost 10 years and never had someone send me an email like that so it made me angry.

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Angela V. Edwards

15 years ago

Originally Posted by SuzanneH

It could be that he had the page made for him and his webmaster used the same template you did, and so now he thinks you copied it... Just a thought...

One thing I don't understand is why in the world would you change your page if he has the same wording as you and you wrote it originally? Sounds like a strange thing to do...

Suzanne

That's what I was thinking. If your site was up first, why change anything? It's easy to threaten legal action; people do it all the time. If you didn't copy his site, you didn't copy his site. Especially if you were registered years before he was. I would simply take a screenshot of his date of registration and then yours. Next time he contacts you, send him both screenshots. The burden of proof is on him that you copied it, not on you that you didn't.

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Gene Pimentel

15 years ago

First of all, if that letter wasn't sent by an attorney, don't even bother replying especially if you know you didn't copy anything. Threats of this nature abound on the internet, and most are empty threats by cry-baby thumb-sucking site owners.

If they were serious about taking legal action, let them have at it. The first thing a lawyer would do is send you an official warning or Cease & Desist. Look up the lawyer to make sure they are legit, and then you can do whatever is necessary. If you're cooperative at that point, it will not likely go any further.

Gene

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice!

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

I use a landing page like the double your dating landing page and got an email from a penny stock stock market site person claiming I am copying their own landing page. I have a stock market site:

"Regarding your landing page located at:
Technical Analysis Secrets

This letter is to notify you that you are in direct violation of
International Copyright laws.

Our website, http://XXXXXX, designed this layout, and you have
copied it almost verbatim, therefore you have infringed on our IP
(Intellectual Property) as defined in the electronic copyright laws.

We ask that you contact immediately to avoid legal action.

Sincerely,

P.S. - Due to the autoresponder you have set up we are under the
impression you use it as a tactic to avoid having to respond to your
Emails, therefore, you have 48 hours to respond to rhis message otherwise
Legal Action WILL be taken!"

I've never seen or heard of their website before. I looked and their domain was registered in 2007. My business has been around since 1999 and this particular website of mine they are talking about I think since 2003 or 2004.

How would you respond to this. Ever received anything similar?

It seems like since there are so many people using versions of Eban Pagan's landing page the guy is a nut. I would think he copied it from someone else himself.

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel

First of all, if that letter wasn't sent by an attorney, don't even bother replying especially if you know you didn't copy anything. Threats of this nature abound on the internet, and most are empty threats by cry-baby thumb-sucking site owners.

If they were serious about taking legal action, let them have at it. The first thing a lawyer would do is send you an official warning or Cease & Desist. Look up the lawyer to make sure they are legit, and then you can do whatever is necessary. If you're cooperative at that point, it will not likely go any further.

Gene

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice!

Well, looking at his site I do not believe it makes any money and people in my niche who know of me know I make money so that was my first assumption. I replied to him, if he replies and continues this, I'll ask him to send me a mailing address and will get a lawyer to write to him for me. I'm not going to settle to him and have a good lawyer that I have used in business stuff in the past.

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rosetrees 15 years ago

Sounds like a scam to me. I wonder how many other people he's sent that letter to? I can't imagine that was sent by or even written by a lawyer. His instruction to "contact immediately to avoid legal action" is simply an attempt to frighten you and then, most likely, blackmail you - by asking you to pay him not to start legal action. He's a scammer and a fraudster, I reckon.
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Black Hat Cat

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

How would you respond to this. Ever received anything similar?

I would post his email to several safe lists, ffa sites, and cpa offers, have a chuckle, and then go about my day. But that's about it. I wouldn't even give him the satisfaction of a written response.

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tradermike2008 15 years ago

He sent me a reply refuses to give me his name or phone number:

"Okay, you can visit Alexa here: Alexa Web Search - Results for XXXX and take a look at the thumbnail, or take a look at the documents I have attached. One is of your landing page, and one is of the StockPreacher.com landing page. I'm sure you'll remember where you got this "idea" from as soon as you look at the attachment, or thumbnail on Alexa.

And YES, you did copy the website, the similarities are way to similar, and I will add, well within copyright infringement laws.

The landing page is not in use by XXXX at present, but we do alternate different pages, THAT WE CREATED, while doing different beta/split testing for conversion purposes. - We wouldn't want these two pages to get mixed up or construed as one in the same now would we!?

Let us please come to an amicable solution to this issue a.s.a.p. - should you wish to discuss this matter over the telephone, simply supply us with a number and we will have our attorney contact you directly.

We would also like to take the time to add that this is only necessary to be done in order for the both of us maintain our individual identities, we are not trying to offend, or be rude to you and your team in any way. Seeing how the design was done by our team, we are simply asking that it be removed immediately."

The image he sent me of his landing page I put up here:

http://www.wallstreetwindow.com/preacherlanding.tiff

On alexa it shows up as being his home page. So he was using it as the main page of his site recently. Now his site has some really basic - but poorly organized content and design.

It doesn't show up in the waybackmachine - which says it needs 6 months of data to show up. But perhaps the low traffic makes it so it never found it, but I have some sites that are just dead and up that get no traffic and show up.

Trying to figure out if he is really sincere or just trying to get money. Is he trying to threaten me too by saying he might put the page up because its similar? It is hard to tell what his motivation is. Think best thing is just to do is talk to my lawyer - then either get his lawyer to send me a letter or just tell him he can get his lawyer to write to him. Or just ignore it.
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  "Counsel has advised me that once a threat of legal action has been made, I should not discuss the issue with you directly. All further contact regarding this matter should be handled through my attorney at:
  
  S. Crewyu
  LegalMan, LLC
  1313 Waffle St
  Yourtown, USA 00000
  Voice: 202-555-1212
  Fax: 202-555-0000
  
  Sincerely,
  Trader Mike"
  
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write-stuff

15 years ago

Is your content different from his? Yes? So much for the main portion of a copyright complaint.

Would a viewer to both sites find them confusing (i.e. mistake one for the other)? No? Then a "look-and-feel" complaint would be unlikely to succeed.

This "look-and-feel" issue really stretched copyright law thinly. Its first real test was Apple v. Microsoft back in the early 90s regarding the Windows environment. Apple could arguably demonstrate that Microsoft was taking business that Apple might have otherwise gotten. They could show damages. Is there some way that this guy could lose sales because of your site?

"Look-and-feel" is a highly subjective area. It would probably be horrendously difficult and expensive to take action on. Contact an attorney of course, but personally, I'd tell him to urinate up a piece of braided hemp and then promptly forget about it.

I just saw the part where he refuses to give you his name. This is just my opinion and I am not recommending any action for you. I were involved in this, I'd figure this guy is just some kind of malcontent with little real understanding of intellectual property rights. If I decided to tell him something more professional than my "up a rope" comment, I suspect I'd tell him that without his name and mailing address he could expect no further reply from me (or my lawyer). If he provided it, THEN I'd probably write him a letter to tell him to piss up a rope.

Of course the safest route is to just change the look of your site and don't worry about whether or not you're being bullied.

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George Wright

15 years ago

Here are 51,000 other sites he can sue.

"secrets that most" "will never know" - Google Search

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tradermike2008 15 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

Here are 51,000 other sites he can sue.

"secrets that most" "will never know" - Google Search

Or try too.
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affenpinscher

15 years ago

It's obviously not a letter from a lawyer. Note the "international copyright laws"
language.

What 'international' laws are those and what would he do about it? Sue
you in World Court in the Netherlands?

I wouldn't respond. If this guy thinks he's got a live one, he'll try to reel
you in for some money.

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by affenpinscher

It's obviously not a letter from a lawyer. Note the "international copyright laws"
language.

What 'international' laws are those and what would he do about it? Sue
you in World Court in the Netherlands?

I wouldn't respond. If this guy thinks he's got a live one, he'll try to reel
you in for some money.

YEah you are right. Probably made a mistake responding in the first place. Thanks everyone for their thoughts and comments.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Want to have some fun?

Tell Eben about the guy's page. See if he thinks it's funny to get "talked to" by the guy you both copied.

Paul
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- tradermike2008 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Want to have some fun?
  
  Tell Eben about the guy's page. See if he thinks it's funny to get "talked to" by the guy you both copied.
  
  Paul
  
  That would be pretty funny. Do you know how to get in touch with him? I'm on his email list, I'll probably just try to send it to his list, he probably has someone reading them. ACtually wouldn't be shocked if this thread gets passed to him by one of this people or something.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  That would be pretty funny. Do you know how to get in touch with him?
  
  Ask some of the folks who deal with him regularly. Shouldn't be too hard.
  
  Or just point him to one of Eben's pages this is based on and suggest that, just maybe, his people copied Eben's stuff without telling him. "A lot of people model that page."
  
  I'd really just send him the note I left above and wait. It's what they tell me whenever the topic comes up. "Have him contact your lawyer. If he's serious, he will. If he's not, he'll go away. Either way, you don't make things worse, or do something stupid."
  
  Paul
  
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Steven Carl Kelly

15 years ago

Did you notice the typos in his text? Not an attorney.

It's simple. This is a bullying technique and he probably doesn't even have a lawyer. I would inform him that you have no intention of making substantial modifications to the page, the work is yours and completely original. I would ask him to immediately provide you his attorney's contact information because you would like to discuss it directly with the individual lawyer who is representing him.

I'm not kidding here. I've been in the same situation before, and I refused to be bullied. I doubt you get any real attorney information, but if you do go ahead and contact them. You incur no penalty for discussing the matter, you will say that you are making a good faith effort to act honorably.

Nope, don't get pushed around and don't bend until you're required to bend.

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by faxinator

Did you notice the typos in his text? Not an attorney.

It's simple. This is a bullying technique and he probably doesn't even have a lawyer. I would inform him that you have no intention of making substantial modifications to the page, the work is yours and completely original. I would ask him to immediately provide you his attorney's contact information because you would like to discuss it directly with the individual lawyer who is representing him.

I'm not kidding here. I've been in the same situation before, and I refused to be bullied. I doubt you get any real attorney information, but if you do go ahead and contact them. You incur no penalty for discussing the matter, you will say that you are making a good faith effort to act honorably.

Nope, don't get pushed around and don't bend until you're required to bend.

I was thinking when I got his email that this has probably happened before to people on here.

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Henry Artz 15 years ago

Seems like just a new model of internet scam
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Steven Carl Kelly

15 years ago

When I called their bluff, they went away.

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zerofill

15 years ago

Heh...I have gotten emails like that before...so has some of the telecom companies I have done work for...we just tell them to pi** off...

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Stallion

15 years ago

Yeah, it just seems like an attempt to bully you. I don't think most lawyers wouldn't attach their phone number and address to each email. Emails aren't exactly the way lawyers will try to communicate on legal issues. Besides maybe a cease and desist to someone on the internet.

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

I use a landing page like the double your dating landing page and got an email from a penny stock stock market site person claiming I am copying their own landing page. I have a stock market site:

"Regarding your landing page located at:
Technical Analysis Secrets

This letter is to notify you that you are in direct violation of
International Copyright laws.

Mike,

This isn't legal advice, just my opinion.

If the page in question is the one in the hyperlink above, I think you would be better off just ignoring this wacko.

I spent many years in the Intellectual Property arena, specifically patents, and I can tell you first hand that IP is one of the most expensive areas in law there is.

I would imagine that there isn't a single experienced IP attorney, and again this is just my opinion, that would touch a case like this. IP lawyers generally need a Queens ransome upfront before they take on a lawsuit. It is not like Personal Injury where the atty will do it for a cut of the potential awarded damages.

So the out of pocket upfront costs for this bozo to initiate a lawsuit leads me to believe they have never contacted a real attorney. If they had, they certainly wouldn't have contacted you directly, you would have been given a Cease and Desist letter from their atty.

The only email I would send them is an email stating that you will forward all future correspondence from them to your attorney as well as to the proper authorities. (You're not, of course, you're just bozoing them back.)

Bottom line...stop engaging them asap. Let them move on to someone who has the time to waste. You're a Warrior, and you have better things to do.

Again, this is not legal advice, I just hate seeing your chain yanked like this.

KJ

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Angela V. Edwards

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Mike,

This isn't legal advice, just my opinion.

If the page in question is the one in the hyperlink above, I think you would be better off just ignoring this wacko.

I spent many years in the Intellectual Property arena, specifically patents, and I can tell you first hand that IP is one of the most expensive areas in law there is.

I would imagine that there isn't a single experienced IP attorney, and again this is just my opinion, that would touch a case like this. IP lawyers generally need a Queens ransome upfront before they take on a lawsuit. It is not like Personal Injury where the atty will do it for a cut of the potential awarded damages.

So the out of pocket upfront costs for this bozo to initiate a lawsuit leads me to believe they have never contacted a real attorney. If they had, they certainly wouldn't have contacted you directly, you would have been given a Cease and Desist letter from their atty.

The only email I would send them is an email stating that you will forward all future correspondence from them to your attorney as well as to the proper authorities. (You're not, of course, you're just bozoing them back.)

Bottom line...stop engaging them asap. Let them move on to someone who has the time to waste. You're a Warrior, and you have better things to do.

Again, this is not legal advice, I just hate seeing your chain yanked like this.

KJ

Exactly. Another thing is, when someone is informing you that you have broken a law they don't say things like "International Copyright Laws". They tell you the exact law and the number of the law that you broke. For instance, here in Washington State, if I broke a law, I'd be accused of violating RCW XXXX (Revised Code of Washington), or WAC XXXX (Washington Administrative Code).

The lady I knew who was helping the Nigerian scammers was charged under Title 18, United States Code, Section 1349.

People don't get charged under obscure "International Laws". When people are charged with a law violation, the exact law they broke is quoted.

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Thanks going to talk to my lawyer and probably send the guy an email saying to get his lawyer to write him directly and then forget about this. Distracted by for afew hours this morning and that's enough. Thanks to everyone here for their comments and thoughts. I forwarded the info to Eban Pagan's group too.

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write-stuff 15 years ago

Originally Posted by tradermike2008

Thanks going to talk to my lawyer and probably send the guy an email saying to get his lawyer to write him directly and then forget about this.

Just remember that if the guy takes you up on your offer and DOES write to your lawyer, you'll be incurring costs. You could quickly end up spending several hundred bucks having your lawyer read the letter and deciding whether/how to respond.
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Eric Stanley

15 years ago

I had a similar run in with a fraudster just like that.. caught him with his pants down after faking 'giving in' -- he was trying to represent a company and when I called said company, he obviously did not exist within the organization, nor had any legal backing. Blackmail attempt pure and simple. I had him on the phone too.. told him to f*** off after I said that I submitted his info to the local authorities in his jurisdiction for blackmail and fraud. All I heard was "click".

Yes, a new scam of sorts to pry on ANY, and I mean ANYthing close to what may be perceived as copyright yada yada..

Don't be bullied or give in -- UNLESS you get a letter or call from a verified attorney's office and you know honestly you may be a fault. Just IMO.

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chris_surfrider

15 years ago

This is either a scam, a bullying tactic or a case of small-life-syndrome.

Ignore the quack and do as Killer Joe suggested.

If it was real, the attorney would serve you a C/D

-Chris

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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

This is not about copyright. It's about trying to intimidate a competitor.

I don't think you really can copyright something as basic a layout as that (which many people could have independently created). Words, yes, but not the fact that you have bullet points with an optin box below them.

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WinsonYeung

15 years ago

I will not give a reply unless they call me on phone

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Pete Egeler

15 years ago

I got something similar many years ago. (Mid-90's). All kinds of threats, etc.

Finally got pissed, called the party and said "Give me your address so I can send you a copy of my legal papers." (I held a tradmark registration).

Wasn't 48-hours later when a guy calls me, says it was his daughter that sent me the email, and she was banished from his computer. "Sorry for the intrusion".

Pete

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Kay King

15 years ago

My bad tradermike - had written this and clicked on the wrong thread.

sorry about that.

I had also read this one and think the nutty threats are going wild these days!

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

IANAL - and won't offer legal advice. It doesn't take a genius, though, to see the statement below on the landing page SHE is complaining about:

What part of that doesn't she understand? In addition, most terms and conditions pages state that the T&S may change without notice and any changes are binding.

If the person didn't read the terms - too bad, so sad. I'd ban her from the forum - and would do the same for anyone else deciding to join her "cause." As for removing her posts, it would depend on whether it could be done easily and if they are necessary to the threads they appear in (informative). If it were only one person it might be worth doing to get rid of them - but as she seems to be attacking your site, I wouldn't do it.

If it is really getting out of hand - or you think it might do that - consult an attorney and get the legalese defense in writing - and use that to respond to anyone sending one of this person's form letters to you.

Only caution - if your terms were not written by an attorney, also have them reviewed to make sure they don't violate the law in some way. They seem to go a bit beyond most rights paragraphs I've read - may need further explaining to reassure members that you have no nefarious purposes in mind.

The question of copyright on forums has been discussed here previously and as I recall, the consensus was that the person posting has copyright but the owner of the site on also has rights to use those posts. Other forum members do not have the right to copy those posts without permission (as in to place them on their blog or site).

This person is not an attorney - just trying to sound like one. She thinks she has found a righteous cause - and needs to be brought back to earth quickly before she causes more trouble.

kay

I think you got this thread confused with another one posted today. This is about another website owner and the other thread is about a disgruntled website member.

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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Kay, I'm not sure what you are saying about a forum- no forum was mentioned in this thread before your post.

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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Odell

I would tell them to get bent!

They are trying on; if you have proof of provenance of the design and layout, tell them so (way back machine is good for that).

Internet Archive

If you really want to screw them up, register the copyright of it (I bet they haven't!).

Its scare tactics of a competitor.

Counter claim with the evidence and see what happens.

Rich

Well they aren't really a competitor. I'm probably a B player in my niche. They don't even register and I can tell from their site they aren't making any money. They would be better off trying to work with people, get affiliates etc.

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IMBrandon

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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WPQ 15 years ago

If you're worried, consult a lawyer, but in reality, this is a vague and almost certainly not actionable suit. This is NOT legal advice and I am NOT a lawyer.
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- Ken Strong 15 years ago
  
  This thread is 6 months old, people -- I don't know why it was bumped. No point in adding comments at this late date.
  
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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

Yeah what Ken said .....

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Ken Strong 15 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

Yeah what Ken said .....

Hey! STOP BUMPING IT!
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tradermike2008

15 years ago

Thanks yeah the guy just disappeared. I found out his background once I got his name and he went to jail for insurance fraud.

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Getting threated by lawsuit nut - what would you do?

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