Suggestion to Admin: Readers' Revenge...

[theemperor]

Yes I agree it's annoying that people skim. Any suggestion as to what to do about it?

[tpw]

Originally Posted by imationx

This is a problem with any forum on the internet. Interesting idea but I don't see the point in making it known that someone didn't feel like reading it.

I am one of those people who have been on the forefront of this discussion for several weeks -- some will suggest that I have overplayed that hand.

My interest is actually two-fold in this issue:


1. When I started participating more regular in the forum, I kept noticing some really awesome threads being deleted.

Paul Myers said in a post that when the mods start noticing a lot of people saying things like, "I did not want to read all of the responses, but here is what I think...", then the mods would lock or delete the thread!!

Then I really started noticing how many awesome threads were just being outright deleted, because those commenting were willing to admit that they were unwilling to read the thread before adding their own comments.

In several specific cases, the OP would say something silly. Then others would walk him/her through the intellectual process to show them the other side of the equation.

If that thread would have been allowed to survive, the information had been laid out in such a way to show many more people how to change their thinking in a way that might benefit their business.

But the late-comers would always pop their heads into the thread on page 4 or 5, just to tell the OP what an idiot he or she was or to agree with the OP's original premise.

Mods would respond to this behavior by deleting the thread.

To me that is like Dale Carnegie sitting down to write, "How To Win Friends and Influence People" in 1936, but because Adolph Hitler was perverting the intention of the book, by using it to manipulate the German people, then some power-broker decided that the book should be pulled out of print.

In essence, if we did not read the book when it came out in 1936, then that will be our own tough luck. Because we were not in the right place at the right place, the lessons taught in that book are lost to us as individuals forever!!


2. I want to better understand what I, as a writer, can do to get more people to read enough of the words I write to understand the ideas I am attempting to communicate to them.

I want to learn how to become a better communicator.

The forum has shown itself to be a very fertile ground for testing ideas in this regard.

I can try various approaches and see in real time the outcome of my experiments.

I really want to understand what people read and what they skim. And I want to know how I can change my writing style to better communicate my message to my target audience.

If I can better understand how to put the words on the page, more people will read my writing and take from it the ideas that I am trying to communicate to them.

If only 20% of readers are reading the words as I put them on the page, and taking from those words the idea I want to communicate to them, then I have a valid starting point from which to improve.

If I can increase the number of readers who take from my words the ideas that I am trying to communicate to them, and I can increase that number from 20% to 40%, then I can double my sales conversions.



In the end, I want the mods to lock threads instead of deleting them, to ensure that information can always be available to those people who have not yet found it.

And I want to learn how to become a better communicator, because in the end, that will help me grow my business in ways that I never before could imagine.

[tpw]

Originally Posted by Theend

Genius! I like, would it show who skimmed you - What do you think about that?

We don't need a button to show us who skimmed the thread.

You did it just now, and there is no such button to tell me that you did.

[peter gibson]

Originally Posted by theemperor

Yes I agree it's annoying that people skim. Any suggestion as to what to do about it?

Off with their heads!

[DanielleS]

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Bill, don't go there. lol

If we're going to have an icon to point out a shortcoming for that, then
why stop there?

We'll end up with at least a dozen shortcoming report icons.

What happens if a person accrues too many infractions for skimming?

Banned for skimming?

"But, Your Honor, I actually did read the OP - 3 times. It was one of Bill's
tome-threads full of reverse negative stories and half a positive. Quadruple
entendres, and I swear one those rare harf an entendre - they're killer. I did
my best, Your Honor."

"I see. Well, you're banned for being just too stupid, I guess. Yeah... that's
the ticket."


Ken

well, "you can't fix stupid."

[peter gibson]

Originally Posted by Theend

Genius! I like, would it show who skimmed you - What do you think about that?

^^Priceless^^.

BTW, another addition to the WF, one I've been advocating it since I started noticing these dismal posts increase over time... The "shakes head in disbelief" smiley.

[peter gibson]

Originally Posted by DanielleS

well, "you can't fix stupid."

Sure you can...

Originally Posted by peter gibson

Off with their heads!

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

In order to succeed, you have to pay attention.

[Mark Singletary]

Sure I get upset when the newsletters I get are all pitch too but I wouldn't go so far as to say we should get revenge on those people who send the emails.

"Revenge" is a bit harsh but maybe we should just simply unsubscribe from those people who "abuse" their email lists. Many of them are just sending out what they were taught to send out even if it's just by example.

Mark

[Kay King]

just skimmin' ?

[Martin.Avis]

Originally Posted by Mark Singletary

Sure I get upset when the newsletters I get are all pitch too but I wouldn't go so far as to say we should get revenge on those people who send the emails.

"Revenge" is a bit harsh but maybe we should just simply unsubscribe from those people who "abuse" their email lists. Many of them are just sending out what they were taught to send out even if it's just by example.

Mark

I can't work out if you are a prime example of what this thread is about, or if you are just taking the piss.

[Mark Singletary]

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

I can't work out if you are a prime example of what this thread is about, or if you are just taking the piss.

Where's that button when you need it?

Seriously skimming annoys me too. Most of them aren't joking though and I agree - that's sad.

They call that "half-cocked" where I come from.

Mark

[KEY]

while I do like the concept? I think that there is
already enough 'pun-ishment' laid onto the people
that do this sort of thing. few continue not being
sure that they have the right of things before
posting after the digital swirlies that some WF
members deliver

there is already an member-2-member infraction
button. maybe we should be using it more?

[George Wright]

I don't like skim either.

However due to health reasons I do have to drink skim or at least 2% but no more.

My mom used to call skim blue john.

Works pretty well though with the special K diet.

IMHO

George Wright

[WD Mino]

Originally Posted by George Wright

I don't like skim either.

However due to health reasons I do have to drink skim or at least 2% but no more.

My mom used to call skim blue john.

Works pretty well though with the special K diet.

IMHO

George Wright

LOL George way to go with the humor Always a pleasure to read your posts
thanks for the laugh
-Will

[humbledmarket]

Just Skimmed your thread seems like a great idea ;D
In all seriousness I think this is a very unique idea I completely understand what you mean. Sometimes I'd be posting a thread and receive answers completely irrelevent.

But I cannot complain since sometimes if I'm honest I do it myself as well. the problem is that we want to learn and add to the community but many times we don't have the time because we're working on our own business. So we Skim the thread as we do with many other reading materials. It's actually very common not only in forums but in general. You skim something to see if it has any added value or any benefit to you but many times it can also be formed into an annoying habit as you said with detrimental results for other readers.

It gets annoying when it becomes a trend though. An incentive will definitely change things but it might also change involvement in the community since some people don't have the time to read 1000 word threads or replies like this current post is soon becoming.

In short if you're skimming this: Great Idea but we should also be a little patient with others.

[BrianTerr]

Part of my communication class was about ensuring the reader gets the message you are trying to convey. If you are constantly being skimmed, perhaps the fault lies with your writing?

On another note, if you regard me as a skimmer, fool or idiot, then maybe you don't need me as a potential customer.

[tpw]

Originally Posted by BrianTerr

Part of my communication class was about ensuring the reader gets the message you are trying to convey. If you are constantly being skimmed, perhaps the fault lies with your writing?

On another note, if you regard me as a skimmer, fool or idiot, then maybe you don't need me as a potential customer.

LOL

I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

To that goal, I will continue moving forward.

[KenThompson]

Originally Posted by tpw

LOL

I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

To that goal, I will continue moving forward.

Bill...

I have not kept up with this since my earlier posts. Hope you know I was
joking about the tome-threads thing.

I actually like reading your threads/posts/War 'n Peace articles/...

You're fun to read. Actually, I didn't discover you until quite recently. I have
no idea why, either. Different shipping lanes?? lol


Ken

[BrianTerr]

Originally Posted by tpw

LOL

I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

To that goal, I will continue moving forward.

An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.

When people read a post, they have to make an evaluation of the worth of the post based on their experience. "How does it relate to what I know?" If the interest in the subject matter is passing, or of little relevance to their needs, they move on. Skimming the post to see if it is relevant, then posting an inane off topic reply is human nature. Maddening, irritating, human nature.

If the duplicate penalty thread you started is typical of your writing then perhaps outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims are only good for generating off topic discussion. You certainly made a good argument in that post against your point, which you eventually got to at the end of your 500 or so words. My response to your post was based on my experience, and while perhaps a little flippant I honestly thought that the subject matter was proved 2 years ago. I might go back to that thread and post my results of blind testing with duplicate content on my now defunct affiliate sites.

[Martin.Avis]

Originally Posted by BrianTerr

An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.

The problem isn't really that people skim - that's their prerogative. It is that they half read something, can't be bothered to read follow up posts that may offer clarity, and then barge in with their own opinions. Opinions that are more often than not plain wrong.

The result is that at best they look like idiots, and at worst they have helped propogate misunderstandings. But as they haven't read the thread, and probably won't invest any time in following it up, so remain blissfully unaware of any of that.

Skim all you like - goodness knows that there is way too much on the WF to read every word - but if you plan to join in a discussion at least have the grace to understand what is being discussed. That's all I ask.

My suggestion of a gentle way of calling these folks out would hopefully go some way to making them, at the very least, take a littel more care before firing off unconsidered responses to threads they are only half aware of the real meaning of.

Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting.

Martin

[Martin Luxton]

Martin,

I was thinking of starting a thread along similar lines the other day.

The thing is, it's not just about skimming. Other 'misdemeanors' come to mind:

1. People don't understand smileys. The amount of times I've put a smiley after a post and people think I'm deadly serious.

2. They read the OP but don't bother reading the info in the embedded link (which is what the whole thrust of the thread is based on).

3. They use their reply to self-promote "As I was saying on my blog www . spammylink .com . . . "


I think these issues are more of a "got that off my chest - now I feel better" rather than something you can legislate against.

This comment of yours is perhaps the most pertinent:

Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting. (my bold)

You can't change these people, just change your own attitude so that they no longer get your goat.


Martin

[Martin.Avis]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

You can't change these people, just change your own attitude so that they no longer get your goat.

Funnily enough, it isn't my goat that concerns me primarily. I'm a big boy and it takes a bit more than a few scatterbrained idiots to really annoy me.

But I do beleive that you can change people - provided they can see that the change is in their own self interest.

My motivation is more to educate these people a little to the idea that paying attention and thinking before blindly reacting is the only real way to be successful - after all, the WF is about helping people to be more successful, I think.

Surely pointing out to them that they are not doing themselves any favours is a step in the right direction?

Martin

[paulie888]

Originally Posted by tpw

LOL

I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

To that goal, I will continue moving forward.

Perhaps that was because your earlier posts were clear cut and very straightforward in nature, as opposed to the last few subtle and cunning ones, which you had created to illustrate a particular point?

[paulie888]

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

The problem isn't really that people skim - that's their prerogative. It is that they half read something, can't be bothered to read follow up posts that may offer clarity, and then barge in with their own opinions. Opinions that are more often than not plain wrong.

The result is that at best they look like idiots, and at worst they have helped propogate misunderstandings. But as they haven't read the thread, and probably won't invest any time in following it up, so remain blissfully unaware of any of that.

Skim all you like - goodness knows that there is way too much on the WF to read every word - but if you plan to join in a discussion at least have the grace to understand what is being discussed. That's all I ask.

My suggestion of a gentle way of calling these folks out would hopefully go some way to making them, at the very least, take a littel more care before firing off unconsidered responses to threads they are only half aware of the real meaning of.

Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting.

Martin

Martin, of course it'd be impossible to ban skimming, as that would simply not be feasible to institute in a forum of this stature and size.

However, fully reading and trying one's best to comprehend a thread has to be a prerequisite in order to discuss important points and also be able to contribute meaningfully to the thread. That has to be the price of admission one has to give in order to be able to participate, and while something like this could never be formally enforced, members could be self-policing in this regard and watch out for skimmers who are dropping inane comments in threads. This would at least make things very inhospitable for these people, and cut down on these unwanted occurrences.

Paul

[tpw]

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Bill...

I have not kept up with this since my earlier posts. Hope you know I was
joking about the tome-threads thing.

I actually like reading your threads/posts/War 'n Peace articles/...

You're fun to read. Actually, I didn't discover you until quite recently. I have
no idea why, either. Different shipping lanes?? lol

Ken

Ken: I think different shipping lanes...

I have been in article marketing since 2000, but I first met Wags about six months ago. People were floored that we did not even know of each other.

I have been a member of WF since 2004, but I have only truly been active since about Aug-Sept of 2010.

I had only 84 posts in June of 2010.

No problem on the novels comment. Everyone asks when they hear I am doing a post at the WF if I am writing another novel. And it is always an acceptable question to ask.

My wife tells me I talk way too much, and have way too much to say. So no offense taken.

The truth is that it is extremely difficult to offend me, and often harder to piss me off. That is just how I roll. And it sure pisses off the wife when she is in a mood to fight.

Originally Posted by BrianTerr

An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.

When people read a post, they have to make an evaluation of the worth of the post based on their experience. "How does it relate to what I know?" If the interest in the subject matter is passing, or of little relevance to their needs, they move on. Skimming the post to see if it is relevant, then posting an inane off topic reply is human nature. Maddening, irritating, human nature.

If the duplicate penalty thread you started is typical of your writing then perhaps outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims are only good for generating off topic discussion. You certainly made a good argument in that post against your point, which you eventually got to at the end of your 500 or so words. My response to your post was based on my experience, and while perhaps a little flippant I honestly thought that the subject matter was proved 2 years ago. I might go back to that thread and post my results of blind testing with duplicate content on my now defunct affiliate sites.

I don't get everything on the first pass either.

I try to read everything, but some people are boring to read. I could name names, but I won't. LOL

Sometimes when reading, I realize that I missed the point of the last paragraph, and when motivated to do so, I will go back and read it again for clarity.

I always strive to read for clarity, even when I don't have clarity in my own mind.

I also have ample proof that the Duplicate Content Penalty is horse manure, but no matter the proof you bring to the table, people don't want to see things that prove them to be wrong.

People generally want to be right, even when there are mounds of evidence that proves to the contrary.

Outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims is something that I am new to doing. I am stretching my wings to see how much effective I can communicate my ideas. And I do those things primarily to drag eyeballs into a thread and to spark conversation.

To be honest, I don't do that often with articles, not because I am not inclined, but because it is pointless to do if you cannot have an open discussion about it afterward. So I reserve much of that kind of thing for the forums, so that people can jump in and tell me what an idiot I am.

I have nearly given up the battle on the duplicate content penalty, frankly because I am tired of fighting people who are unwilling to see those things they do not want to see.

But you can bet that if I start a thread on that topic, it is because I am in a playful mood, and I want to play with people.

Originally Posted by paulie888

Perhaps that was because your earlier posts were clear cut and very straightforward in nature, as opposed to the last few subtle and cunning ones, which you had created to illustrate a particular point?

Nah, that is not it.

People were skimming my forum posts long before I started playing the subtle games to show people this topic and to bring it into the mainstream of the discussions.


On that note, I found an interesting interview tonight, where Kevin Rogers and John Carlton are talking about people who skim sales copy.

John Carlton said that people who skim sales copy are not in your target audience anyway, because they are looking for information and not products.

Listen here: John Carlton Interviews | Kevin Rogers|Direct Response Copywriting Expert|Marketing Consultant|The Copywriter's Edge

[Steven Wagenheim]

You know, as I am reading some of the comments in this thread, I am
being reminded of how many really intelligent people there are in this forum.

Bill, I think I actually knew of you before you knew about me. And listening
to you speak about issues at the FNC, I got a real insight into what a bright
bulb you really are...as are a lot of people here.

Honestly, at times...I almost feel like an idiot in comparison.

But Martin, you really hit the nail on the head. It's okay to skim. God knows
there is too much to read here to read every single word. But if you're
going to butt your two cents into the conversation, especially if you are
going to go on a rant about something, you better at least know what's gone down in the thread prior to you making yourself look like a jackass.

Sadly, as you also said, most of these people won't even bother to come
back to see that they've totally missed the point of the discussion and
the subsequent abuse that they've probably received from the irate
members who can't understand how somebody can totally miss the point
of whatever it was that went down.

It's like driving down the highway, oblivious to the cars around you,
causing a massive traffic accident and driving away without even knowing
that you've left 10 dead bodies in your wake.

People like that only make me shake my head and wonder if we're living
on the same planet.

Rest assured, if I come bursting into a thread breathing fire and brimstone,
I damn well read what went down before I put in my two cents.

But as you can probably tell from my post count, I'm a forum junkie and
actually enjoy reading people's opinions.

Some folks just can't be bothered and rather spout off like a beached
whale because they have nothing better to do.

Okay, I'm done.

Hopefully, I've made some kind of a point in all this. If not, blame it on the
early morning hour and the fact that I'm half asleep.

[KenThompson]

Originally Posted by tpw

Ken: I think different shipping lanes...

Not surprising! There are a million of them. lol

My wife tells me I talk way too much, and have way too much to say. So no offense taken.

Well from what I've read, not that I stalk you here lol, your posts are
intelligent with a dash of down home, good natured wit and humility.

Quite unlike others who would not be worth mentioning even if I could.

See ya 'round the ranch.


Ken

[tpw]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

It's like driving down the highway, oblivious to the cars around you,
causing a massive traffic accident and driving away without even knowing
that you've left 10 dead bodies in your wake.

People like that only make me shake my head and wonder if we're living
on the same planet.

Great analogy Steve.

Sometimes I think different planet. Sometimes I just wonder if I am schizophrenic. LOL

[Latsyrc]

Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen

Let's use a real life example of this...

So say someone fell down the stairs here at my School, everybody would do what? Well laugh... Sit there and laugh.

Now the forum example:- Sometime unknowingly makes a reply that doesn't mean to the topic. Maybe they skim read, didn't understand, or maybe they don't even speak English well... So they make a totally off topic comment, even the best of us do this.

Now think, if everyone is all "skimming" this person, how does that make them feel for making a mistake? Go back to the real life example, how does that kid feel, everybody's sitting there laughing at something that totally isnt there fault.

just my opinion.

I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.

[Victor Edson]

You definitely need a skimmer. It will help remove a lot of the toxic crap in your salt water fishtank's water. Clean water is the most important part of a good reef tank, and even if you only have a fish only tank, it will help keep your fish healthy.

Mine is in the refugium, but the Hang on Back kinds are good too.

Hope this answered your Skimmer question!!!

[KenThompson]

Originally Posted by Victor Edson

You definitely need a skimmer. It will help remove a lot of the toxic crap in your salt water fishtank's water. Clean water is the most important part of a good reef tank, and even if you only have a fish only tank, it will help keep your fish healthy.

Mine is in the refugium, but the Hang on Back kinds are good too.

Hope this answered your Skimmer question!!!

Funny. Back in the 90s I had about 8 salt water tanks going in my
apt. The biggest was a 75 gal reef tank, right next to my bed. It was
great to look at, very relaxing.

Yes, I had protein skimmers, water polishers, etc.. etc. Water quality
is everything.


Ken

[tpw]

Originally Posted by counselormom

I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.

All is good.

I was just giving you a gentle nudge.

[Lloyd Buchinski]

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

In many recent threads it has become all to plain that a huge number of people skim the OP, generally misunderstand it, and then post their own - usually irrelevant - opinion.

A lot of them seem to fall short of reading the op. I really had the impression for awhile that they would just read the title, open the thread and hit the reply button.

I remember one thread asking for a laptop recommendation. Her post started off saying she didn't want a Mac because of the software she was using, not wanting to learn another system. Well, you know what happened next. 3 posts in the thread 'get a Mac, all your problems will be over.'

Some days it seems like even skimming is too much to ask.

[Latsyrc]

Originally Posted by tpw

All is good.

I was just giving you a gentle nudge.

Oh, I know. I appreciate it also. This post wasn't against you, lol. Just the OP's stance might not be appropriate for all people who post.

[Martin.Avis]

Originally Posted by counselormom

I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.

Originally Posted by counselormom

...the OP's stance might not be appropriate for all people who post.

What you are implying, I think, is that having made yourself look an idiot, you learned a lesson and will try to avoid doing so again.

That's fantastic - and in your case I doubt if anyone would need to flag you as a skimmer in the future.

The problem is not with people like you who are aware of their actions and try to learn by them, but with the many people who consistently fail to pay attention to their own actions - let alone other people's words - and who need a little bit of a group nudge to see the error of their ways.

Martin