Suggestion to Admin: Readers' Revenge...

86 replies
In many recent threads it has become all to plain that a huge number of people skim the OP, generally misunderstand it, and then post their own - usually irrelevant - opinion.

Apart from being a huge waste of everyone's time, this trend is simply bloody annoying.

To bring this back to pure marketing, the demonstration, over and over again, of how short many peoples' attention span has become is, in my opinion, a very clear reason why so few are actually able to make much progress in Internet marketing.

In order to succeed, you have to pay attention.

My suggestion is that alongside the infraction and warning icons that we can already use to bring attention to fools and idiots, perhaps a 'skimmer' icon could be added so that we can gently inform people that they have missed the point of a thread.

Then, a member's skim score could be displayed in the same way as their thanks tally.

If nothing else it might keep a few of the butterfly minds on track!

Martin
#admin #readers #revenge #suggestion
  • Profile picture of the author vickybabe
    Very interesting concept, hope they pick it up and use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    Sir Martin,

    You have just received a "Skimmer" for starting another "skim the OP" thread.

    IMHO, many things are good but not all good things are necessary.

    Is the suggestion good? Yes of course.

    Is it necessary? I'm not sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    consider this thread 'skimmed'
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      consider this thread 'skimmed'

      LOL

      A skimmer button would certainly apply to the person skimming, but what do you call the yo-yo's who keep pointing out that shortcoming of other members?
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      • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
        Banned
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        LOL

        A skimmer button would certainly apply to the person skimming, but what do you call the yo-yo's who keep pointing out that shortcoming of other members?
        They are called the NIGHT OWLS.
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        LOL
        but what do you call the yo-yo's who keep pointing out that shortcoming of other members?
        Bill, don't go there. lol

        If we're going to have an icon to point out a shortcoming for that, then
        why stop there?

        We'll end up with at least a dozen shortcoming report icons.

        What happens if a person accrues too many infractions for skimming?

        Banned for skimming?

        "But, Your Honor, I actually did read the OP - 3 times. It was one of Bill's
        tome-threads full of reverse negative stories and half a positive. Quadruple
        entendres, and I swear one those rare harf an entendre - they're killer. I did
        my best, Your Honor."

        "I see. Well, you're banned for being just too stupid, I guess. Yeah... that's
        the ticket."


        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author vickybabe
          ha ha ha love the post Ken, judge judy would love it
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
            Who said anything about banning people? Perhaps reading more into a post than was there is just as bad as not reading it properly.

            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

              Who said anything about banning people? Perhaps reading more into a post than was there is just as bad as not reading it properly.

              Martin
              Nothing is even wrong with banning people (temporarily) for skimming but is it necessary? Is it going to bring sanity to this community? Is it going to change anything?
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              • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
                Originally Posted by King Shiloh View Post

                Nothing is even wrong with banning people (temporarily) for skimming but is it necessary? Is it going to bring sanity to this community? Is it going to change anything?
                Is there anything more important happening in anyone's life?

                Let's ban everyone... temporarily of course. Just for half a day.

                Paul will have to ban himself. The last man banned. Sounds like a
                good movie title.


                Ken
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            • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
              Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

              Who said anything about banning people? Perhaps reading more into a post than was there is just as bad as not reading it properly.

              Martin
              Dear Sir,

              Who said I said anyone said anything about banning anyone, anywhere - for anything?

              If you have the time, and read my post more carefully, it may occur to you that my
              question could be construed as rhetorical.

              And...

              Maybe, just maybe, it had nothing to do with reading more into anything; but rather
              was using humor to kindly suggest how ludicrous an idea may be. But the suggestion
              can merely be a reflection of one's opinion.

              Could it be?

              Is it possible?

              Dare I say... ?


              Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          What happens if a person accrues too many infractions for skimming?

          Banned for skimming? ....

          "I see. Well, you're banned for being just too stupid, I guess. Yeah... that's
          the ticket."
          Ken
          Why not? That sounds like the ticket to me. It IS stupidity, flat out. And after a certain point it adds a collective stupidity to the thread, sometimes it's incredibly counter productive and leaves anyone seeking help with nothing but awash in confusion. It also adds hassles for the mods once we warriors start reporting douchebaggery and they have to deal with the knuckleheads dumb a$$ posts.

          Personally, if this is possible, I am so 1000% behind it I'll even picket outside an office somewhere or call a congressman . The skimmers and non relevant posts gets so extremely frustrating at times I just shut down and not bother replying - even though I might be able to help or need the help, because some threads with great thought provoking OP's end as litter dumps of this crap.

          It's one of the more serious issues of this forum, IMO.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            A dyslexic man walks into a bra...
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          • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
            Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

            Why not? That sounds like the ticket to me. It IS stupidity, flat out. And after a certain point it adds a collective stupidity to the thread, sometimes it's incredibly counter productive and leaves anyone seeking help with nothing but awash in confusion. It also adds hassles for the mods once we warriors start reporting douchebaggery and they have to deal with the knuckleheads dumb a$$ posts.

            Personally, if this is possible, I am so 1000% behind it I'll even picket outside an office somewhere or call a congressman . The skimmers and non relevant posts gets so extremely frustrating at times I just shut down and not bother replying - even though I might be able to help or need the help, because some threads with great thought provoking OP's end as litter dumps of this crap.

            It's one of the more serious issues of this forum, IMO.
            I could not agree more with you. And we are in your debt for providing an
            an excellent example of that which you so eloquently spoke.

            I can sense your passion and can see why you would take the time to actually
            picket outside Allen's office, or maybe Paul's.

            You are a model member; one to emulate, for sure.


            Ken
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            • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
              Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

              You are a model member; one to emulate, for sure.
              Yes sir, of this there is no doubt. You'd do well to do well, as well.

              I'll be organizing a March on Washington soon enough, keep watching Glenn Beck for the details.
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        • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
          Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

          Bill, don't go there. lol

          If we're going to have an icon to point out a shortcoming for that, then
          why stop there?

          We'll end up with at least a dozen shortcoming report icons.

          What happens if a person accrues too many infractions for skimming?

          Banned for skimming?

          "But, Your Honor, I actually did read the OP - 3 times. It was one of Bill's
          tome-threads full of reverse negative stories and half a positive. Quadruple
          entendres, and I swear one those rare harf an entendre - they're killer. I did
          my best, Your Honor."

          "I see. Well, you're banned for being just too stupid, I guess. Yeah... that's
          the ticket."


          Ken
          well, "you can't fix stupid."
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          • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
            Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

            well, "you can't fix stupid."
            Sure you can...
            Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

            Off with their heads!
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    I didn't read your post but what are you talking about?
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    I don't think the tar and feather approach is going to go over well with those who run this loony bin.

    I am 100% in favor of bringing attention to fools and idiots.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Monsieur troll,
      I don't think the tar and feather approach is going to go over well with those who run this loony bin.
      It works well, if you do it well. Unfortunately, very few sock puppets are qualified for the position.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
    Is there anything more important happening in anyone's life?
    Unnecessary mate. Of course we do. Right now I should be changing a channel or watching my socks dry in the dryer. :rolleyes: At the same time, I for one consider this forum a vast resource, and anything that hurts such a treasure might be addressed.

    I mean seriously, have you guys been reading around here lately? Cuz I truly can't believe there is any contention about Martin's idea at all, if it's possible to implement. Something should at least be explored.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

      Seriously guys, do you read this forum? Have you seen some of that nonsense? It IS an issue.

      Unnecessary mate. Of course we do. Right now I should be changing a channel or watching my socks dry in the dryer. :rolleyes: At the same time, I for one consider this forum a vast resource, and anything that hurts such a treasure might be addressed.

      I mean seriously, have you guys been reading around here lately? Cuz I truly can't believe there is any contention about Martin's idea at all, if it's possible to implement. Something should at least be explored.
      Of course many of us read this forum. I've read a tremendous amount, even back
      in early 2000s - my join date does not reflect my history with Mr. Says.

      It's cool if you do not see any contention with it. We obviously differ in our opinions.

      In my view, it is not only the types of posts you and Martin loathe. There are plenty
      of serious posts made here that I would love to see nuked, the people making them
      nuked, etc.


      Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post


        In my view, it is not only the types of posts you and Martin loathe. There are plenty
        of serious posts made here that I would love to see nuked, the people making them
        nuked, etc.


        Ken
        One thing at a time Ken, one thing at a time.
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      • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
        Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

        Of course many of us read this forum. I've read a tremendous amount, even back
        in early 2000s - my join date does not reflect my history with Mr. Says.

        It's cool if you do not see any contention with it. We obviously differ in our opinions.

        In my view, it is not only the types of posts you and Martin loathe. There are plenty
        of serious posts made here that I would love to see nuked, the people making them
        nuked, etc.


        Ken
        I'm in complete agreement with this also. I just must be cranky or something lately, because I seem to be catching a lot more of these junkyard posts than as Sal suggests ...

        I'm staggered that the small % of garbage posted on here actually upsets people
        Small percentage. Really?

        Hell yes it upsets people. Again, either we are reading different threads or I'm delusional. That second part is entirely possible however, don't get me wrong, I've been quite upset since New Orleans lost to Seattle.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ricky Allen
          Hi Martin

          Great to catch up with you here and I believe you are right on the money.

          And for those who take opposite views you are entitled to this of course, but is there any harm in sending what is in my view a wake up call that should help many people here.

          And if they take no notice we move to stage two the tar and feathering LOL.

          And for anyone here who thinks what I just said about stage two is not a joke lighten up please BUT take note of Martins (and mine of course) views on this subject.

          And Paul thanks for the idea for my next ebook.

          How to train your sock puppet to make money on the Internet.

          Ricky "the ebook generator " Allen
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Then again, we are all free to start our own forum if we don't like it here, eh?
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Oh for crying out loud...

    It's a forum, open for discussion and ideas. Therefore you get differeing ideas and differing levels of intelligence.

    I'm staggered that the small % of garbage posted on here actually upsets people to the point of creating threads with stoopid ideas.

    Seriously?

    And given that this particular forum is where we post about making money.. this thread is totally irrelevant and should be moved.

    What a waste of bandwidth.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Oh for crying out loud...

      It's a forum, open for discussion and ideas. Therefore you get differeing ideas and differing levels of intelligence.

      I'm staggered that the small % of garbage posted on here actually upsets people to the point of creating threads with stoopid ideas.

      Seriously?

      And given that this particular forum is where we post about making money.. this thread is totally irrelevant and should be moved.

      What a waste of bandwidth.
      I don't think that highlighting the (in my opinion) main reason that people don't make money - they don't pay attention - is totally irrelevant.

      As you so rightly say, this is a forum that is open for discussion of ideas. My suggestion is just that. That you disagree with my premise is fine - you are perfectly entitled to your view.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

        I don't think that highlighting the (in my opinion) main reason that people don't make money - they don't pay attention - is totally irrelevant.

        As you so rightly say, this is a forum that is open for discussion of ideas. My suggestion is just that. That you disagree with my premise is fine - you are perfectly entitled to your view.

        Martin
        Martin, I think you've really hit the nail on the head there. It is this lack of concentration and focus which is hurting so many marketers - if they can't even pay attention and focus while browsing/posting in forums, how can they be reasonably expected to have the focus necessary to succeed in internet marketing? Paying attention and really focusing on the details is crucial in internet marketing, because this factor in many cases separates success from failure in this arena.

        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author goindeep
          "Theres something out there, and it aint no man"

          What a great quote from that huge red indian dude in Predator.. What ever happened to him anyway?

          Forums are great...



          Ahhhh just kidding.

          I wish i had a beard.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Well, the average reading level for the internet as a whole is something like at a 5th grade level.

          But we're all supposed to be marketers here, and that uniquely qualifies us as folks who should be at the top end of our scale.

          So how about an infraction for anyone making a post above a 3rd grade reading level.

          Those are the real trouble makers here...:rolleyes:

          ~Bill
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Well, the average reading level for the internet as a whole is something like at a 5th grade level.

            But we're all supposed to be marketers here, and that uniquely qualifies us as folks who should be at the top end of our scale.

            So how about an infraction for anyone making a post above a 3rd grade reading level.

            Those are the real trouble makers here...:rolleyes:

            ~Bill
            Bill - according to Word, your post is written to a grade of 8.3.

            Consider yourself infracted - or perhaps wrist slapped, according to your preference.

            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

              Bill - according to Word, your post is written to a grade of 8.3.
              Sheesh, I'm an overachiever.

              Who'd a thunk. :p

              ~Bill
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      Oh for crying out loud...

      It's a forum, open for discussion and ideas. Therefore you get differeing ideas and differing levels of intelligence.

      I'm staggered that the small % of garbage posted on here actually upsets people to the point of creating threads with stoopid ideas.

      Seriously?

      And given that this particular forum is where we post about making money.. this thread is totally irrelevant and should be moved.

      What a waste of bandwidth.
      You are free to start your own forum you know. Just sayin'.
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  • Profile picture of the author sparrow
    cute!

    its a place to share and discuss, its not only here in the forums its a reflection of the world

    survival of the fittest, its how the people who don't pay attention get weeded out

    ED
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    While I understand your point Martin.
    When a person answers things based on what they think was said inevitably hurts their own image and business potential.

    This is a marketing forum that is full of potential customers. When one portrays themselves in a light where they have no use to actually know what is being talked about, reverse that they are perceived as being people who don't know what they are talking about and so therefor must not know anything worth while buying or opting in to.
    It is the same as replying in anger I learned the heard way as some will recall here. I don't like the fact people skim the posts but I also don't like people who lie or cheat other people unfortunately we don't have a scammer button either.

    My point in saying all of this is simple. There are literally hundreds of things that get said,read and digested daily here and for the most part it is from intelligible people like yourself who either have knowledge on the subject, or wisdom on the issue being discussed. while it is definitely annoying for people to post stupid things it is not them I worry about it is my own conduct and answers.
    Just my thoughts
    thanks for being here and nice to see you around again.
    I wish you much success
    -Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      While several people are having a good chuckle over this issue, it is really
      quite exasperating.

      This morning I got an email from somebody who said he expected something
      different from what he got in my product. Had he actually read the entire
      copy (not just the testimonials) he would have known exactly what he was
      getting because it was spelled out in a list that was put in bold to boot.

      People don't read and it drives me nuts. And then they blame you because
      of their laziness.

      I agree with Martin 100%. If people don't read posts in their entirety and
      then toss around comments based on a few words here and there, they
      should be called out on it...especially if their comments end up starting
      a freaking war (which they many times do)

      Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the subject. And yes Martin, I read every
      single word of your OP.

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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the subject. And yes Martin, I read every
        single word of your OP.

        And I of your reply Steven. Isn't it nice when people listen!

        Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Perhaps it would help if we add a "skimmed version" of posts? Martin's OP would be...

        people post opinion.

        huge trend

        marketing progress Internet marketing.

        succeed

        thanks

        butterfly
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Perhaps it would help if we add a "skimmed version" of posts? Martin's OP would be...
          But then there would be bound to be people accusing me of bashing Mike Filsaime.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Guys - We are assuming people learn by reading posts here. I supposein rare instances that can happen:p yet there are other reasons for skimming.

          How many people are looking for places to post quick nonsense or one liners to get an anchor link or post count? They skim to find threads where they are least likely to be called out on it.

          Those folks may be the best readers here - perhaps not the best thinkers...but one can't have everything, can one?

          kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        People don't read and it drives me nuts. And then they blame you because of their laziness.
        Steven,

        Agreed to a point, but that would also infer that they would need to do the exercise of determining where you are coming from contextually.

        That's a hard exercise to get right.

        Since it's virtually impossible to construct a sales letter without the use of modifiers to describe the product, its' benefits, or features, it's also virtually impossible to assure that everyone who reads the text will come away with the same meaning.

        I learned this lesson in spades years ago during a real estate deal where I wanted a certain guarantee of performance on the part of a RE agent regarding net cash at closing to me.

        I got lulled into allowing him to write that particular clause after a long discussion between him and I about the matter. It seemed we had agreed on the point with no ambiguity.

        I read the clause he wrote and it did indeed state correctly what I was after.

        However, once that particular clause became a player during negotitions it became quite clear there were two distinct meanings that could have been contributed to the way a major part of that clause was written.

        He held one side, and I held the other. I prevailed, but the lesson was clear that unless you can contextually have a meeting of the minds all you have is words that are open to different connotations.

        They look black and white on the page, but they can be far from that in reality.

        ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          Steven,

          Agreed to a point, but that would also infer that they would need to do the exercise of determining where you are coming from contextually.

          That's a hard exercise to get right.

          Since it's virtually impossible to construct a sales letter without the use of modifiers to describe to product, its' benefits, or features, it's also virtually impossible to assure that everyone who reads the text will come away with the same meaning.

          I learned this lesson in spades years ago during a real estate deal where I wanted a certain guarantee of performance on the part of a RE agent regarding net cash at closing to me.

          I got lulled into allowing him to write that particular clause after a long discussion between him and I about the matter. It seemed we had agreed on the point with no ambiguity.

          I read the clause he wrote and it did indeed state correctly what I was after.

          However, once that particular clause became a player during negotitions it became quite clear there were two distinct meanings that could have been contributed to the way a major part of that clause was written.

          He held one side, and I held the other. I prevailed, but the lesson was clear that unless you can contextually have a meeting of the minds all you have is words that are open to different connotations.

          They look black and white on the page, but they can be far from that in reality.

          ~Bill
          Bill, this is especially true with the typical emotion-laden modifiers used in internet marketing sales copy. Depending on your perspective and experience, these modifiers can mean very different things; a newbie reading a typical sales letter is going to take away something quite different from someone who's been in the IM business for a while.

          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          Steven,

          Agreed to a point, but that would also infer that they would need to do the exercise of determining where you are coming from contextually.

          That's a hard exercise to get right.

          Since it's virtually impossible to construct a sales letter without the use of modifiers to describe to product, its' benefits, or features, it's also virtually impossible to assure that everyone who reads the text will come away with the same meaning.

          I learned this lesson in spades years ago during a real estate deal where I wanted a certain guarantee of performance on the part of a RE agent regarding net cash at closing to me.

          I got lulled into allowing him to write that particular clause after a long discussion between him and I about the matter. It seemed we had agreed on the point with no ambiguity.

          I read the clause he wrote and it did indeed state correctly what I was after.

          However, once that particular clause became a player during negotitions it became quite clear there were two distinct meanings that could have been contributed to the way a major part of that clause was written.

          He held one side, and I held the other. I prevailed, but the lesson was clear that unless you can contextually have a meeting of the minds all you have is words that are open to different connotations.

          They look black and white on the page, but they can be far from that in reality.

          ~Bill

          Bill, this is certainly true in many cases. However, when you specifically
          state in the sales copy that the person is getting X, Y and Z for one niche
          and they write back to you saying that they expected this for 5 niches,
          then obviously, they didn't read.

          Yes, in some cases, there is room for interpretation. But when clear cut
          numbers are involved, there is no way you can get 5 from 1 unless you
          simply didn't read.
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  • Profile picture of the author coluden
    I'm pretty confident that the reason for many of these 'off topic' comments is that newbies and others who should know better, see some value in having their profile links scattered all over the WF. Although their intentions may be noble in principle, people tend to get lazy, and become more interested in the number idiotic posts than they are in the quality of what they write. I suppose that those of us who find value here, have an obligation to protect it. In light of this, I do agree with you.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by coluden View Post

      I'm pretty confident that the reason for many of these 'off topic' comments is that newbies and others who should know better, see some value in having their profile links scattered all over the WF. Although their intentions may be noble in principle, people tend to get lazy, and become more interested in the number idiotic posts than they are in the quality of what they write. I suppose that those of us who find value here, have an obligation to protect it. In light of this, I do agree with you.
      Also, there are some pretty emotional "hot button" type topics that trigger almost automatic responses in some people, and you see that phenomenon occurring a lot in those threads, where the posters feel so strongly about a certain subject that they immediately denounce everything to the contrary, without even stopping to read what the opposition is saying.
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  • Profile picture of the author candoit2
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    In many recent threads it has become all to plain that a huge number of people skim the OP, generally misunderstand it, and then post their own - usually irrelevant - opinion.

    Apart from being a huge waste of everyone's time, this trend is simply bloody annoying.

    To bring this back to pure marketing, the demonstration, over and over again, of how short many peoples' attention span has become is, in my opinion, a very clear reason why so few are actually able to make much progress in Internet marketing.

    In order to succeed, you have to pay attention.

    My suggestion is that alongside the infraction and warning icons that we can already use to bring attention to fools and idiots, perhaps a 'skimmer' icon could be added so that we can gently inform people that they have missed the point of a thread.

    Then, a member's skim score could be displayed in the same way as their thanks tally.

    If nothing else it might keep a few of the butterfly minds on track!

    Martin
    The thing about the "fools and idiots" Martin is now you've also handed them the ability to label you as a skimmer when you don't agree with them.

    You must have skimmed if you don't agree with them. You obviously missed their point they were trying to make.

    Aaron
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  • Profile picture of the author Onash
    skimming.....skimming......
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    This is a problem with any forum on the internet. Interesting idea but I don't see the point in making it known that someone didn't feel like reading it.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by imationx View Post

      This is a problem with any forum on the internet. Interesting idea but I don't see the point in making it known that someone didn't feel like reading it.

      I am one of those people who have been on the forefront of this discussion for several weeks -- some will suggest that I have overplayed that hand.

      My interest is actually two-fold in this issue:


      1. When I started participating more regular in the forum, I kept noticing some really awesome threads being deleted.

      Paul Myers said in a post that when the mods start noticing a lot of people saying things like, "I did not want to read all of the responses, but here is what I think...", then the mods would lock or delete the thread!!

      Then I really started noticing how many awesome threads were just being outright deleted, because those commenting were willing to admit that they were unwilling to read the thread before adding their own comments.

      In several specific cases, the OP would say something silly. Then others would walk him/her through the intellectual process to show them the other side of the equation.

      If that thread would have been allowed to survive, the information had been laid out in such a way to show many more people how to change their thinking in a way that might benefit their business.

      But the late-comers would always pop their heads into the thread on page 4 or 5, just to tell the OP what an idiot he or she was or to agree with the OP's original premise.

      Mods would respond to this behavior by deleting the thread.

      To me that is like Dale Carnegie sitting down to write, "How To Win Friends and Influence People" in 1936, but because Adolph Hitler was perverting the intention of the book, by using it to manipulate the German people, then some power-broker decided that the book should be pulled out of print.

      In essence, if we did not read the book when it came out in 1936, then that will be our own tough luck. Because we were not in the right place at the right place, the lessons taught in that book are lost to us as individuals forever!!


      2. I want to better understand what I, as a writer, can do to get more people to read enough of the words I write to understand the ideas I am attempting to communicate to them.

      I want to learn how to become a better communicator.

      The forum has shown itself to be a very fertile ground for testing ideas in this regard.

      I can try various approaches and see in real time the outcome of my experiments.

      I really want to understand what people read and what they skim. And I want to know how I can change my writing style to better communicate my message to my target audience.

      If I can better understand how to put the words on the page, more people will read my writing and take from it the ideas that I am trying to communicate to them.

      If only 20% of readers are reading the words as I put them on the page, and taking from those words the idea I want to communicate to them, then I have a valid starting point from which to improve.

      If I can increase the number of readers who take from my words the ideas that I am trying to communicate to them, and I can increase that number from 20% to 40%, then I can double my sales conversions.



      In the end, I want the mods to lock threads instead of deleting them, to ensure that information can always be available to those people who have not yet found it.

      And I want to learn how to become a better communicator, because in the end, that will help me grow my business in ways that I never before could imagine.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    Let's use a real life example of this...

    So say someone fell down the stairs here at my School, everybody would do what? Well laugh... Sit there and laugh.

    Now the forum example:- Sometime unknowingly makes a reply that doesn't mean to the topic. Maybe they skim read, didn't understand, or maybe they don't even speak English well... So they make a totally off topic comment, even the best of us do this.

    Now think, if everyone is all "skimming" this person, how does that make them feel for making a mistake? Go back to the real life example, how does that kid feel, everybody's sitting there laughing at something that totally isnt there fault.

    just my opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      Let's use a real life example of this...

      So say someone fell down the stairs here at my School, everybody would do what? Well laugh... Sit there and laugh.

      Now the forum example:- Sometime unknowingly makes a reply that doesn't mean to the topic. Maybe they skim read, didn't understand, or maybe they don't even speak English well... So they make a totally off topic comment, even the best of us do this.

      Now think, if everyone is all "skimming" this person, how does that make them feel for making a mistake? Go back to the real life example, how does that kid feel, everybody's sitting there laughing at something that totally isnt there fault.

      just my opinion.

      Now that thar is funny!!

      Especially since many of the people just skimming through are choosing rude over informed.

      In fact, many will admit that with words such as, "I did not want to read everyone's comments, but here is what I think..."
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    • Profile picture of the author Latsyrc
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      Let's use a real life example of this...

      So say someone fell down the stairs here at my School, everybody would do what? Well laugh... Sit there and laugh.

      Now the forum example:- Sometime unknowingly makes a reply that doesn't mean to the topic. Maybe they skim read, didn't understand, or maybe they don't even speak English well... So they make a totally off topic comment, even the best of us do this.

      Now think, if everyone is all "skimming" this person, how does that make them feel for making a mistake? Go back to the real life example, how does that kid feel, everybody's sitting there laughing at something that totally isnt there fault.

      just my opinion.
      I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by counselormom View Post

        I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.

        All is good.

        I was just giving you a gentle nudge.
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        • Profile picture of the author Lloyd Buchinski
          Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

          In many recent threads it has become all to plain that a huge number of people skim the OP, generally misunderstand it, and then post their own - usually irrelevant - opinion.
          A lot of them seem to fall short of reading the op. I really had the impression for awhile that they would just read the title, open the thread and hit the reply button.

          I remember one thread asking for a laptop recommendation. Her post started off saying she didn't want a Mac because of the software she was using, not wanting to learn another system. Well, you know what happened next. 3 posts in the thread 'get a Mac, all your problems will be over.'

          Some days it seems like even skimming is too much to ask.
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        • Profile picture of the author Latsyrc
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          All is good.

          I was just giving you a gentle nudge.
          Oh, I know. I appreciate it also. This post wasn't against you, lol. Just the OP's stance might not be appropriate for all people who post.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
        Originally Posted by counselormom View Post

        I totally agree with this. I made a comment a few days ago. Although I unfortunately admit I "skimmed" the ANSWERS to the post (which I WON'T make that mistake again), I thoroughly READ the OP's post. However, I realize I looked like an "idiot" later because I did NOT understand the topic apparently. I am still NEW to internet marketing. I have a master's in counseling, not internet marketing. Many things on here is NEW to me. So, I made a comment that unfortunately was totally IRRELEVANT but I thought it was relevant at the time. My bad.

        Originally Posted by counselormom

        ...the OP's stance might not be appropriate for all people who post.
        What you are implying, I think, is that having made yourself look an idiot, you learned a lesson and will try to avoid doing so again.

        That's fantastic - and in your case I doubt if anyone would need to flag you as a skimmer in the future.

        The problem is not with people like you who are aware of their actions and try to learn by them, but with the many people who consistently fail to pay attention to their own actions - let alone other people's words - and who need a little bit of a group nudge to see the error of their ways.

        Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Yes I agree it's annoying that people skim. Any suggestion as to what to do about it?
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by theemperor View Post

      Yes I agree it's annoying that people skim. Any suggestion as to what to do about it?
      Off with their heads!
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianTerr
      Part of my communication class was about ensuring the reader gets the message you are trying to convey. If you are constantly being skimmed, perhaps the fault lies with your writing?

      On another note, if you regard me as a skimmer, fool or idiot, then maybe you don't need me as a potential customer.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by BrianTerr View Post

        Part of my communication class was about ensuring the reader gets the message you are trying to convey. If you are constantly being skimmed, perhaps the fault lies with your writing?

        On another note, if you regard me as a skimmer, fool or idiot, then maybe you don't need me as a potential customer.

        LOL

        I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

        I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

        To that goal, I will continue moving forward.
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        • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL

          I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

          I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

          To that goal, I will continue moving forward.
          Bill...

          I have not kept up with this since my earlier posts. Hope you know I was
          joking about the tome-threads thing.

          I actually like reading your threads/posts/War 'n Peace articles/...

          You're fun to read. Actually, I didn't discover you until quite recently. I have
          no idea why, either. Different shipping lanes?? lol


          Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianTerr
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL

          I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

          I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

          To that goal, I will continue moving forward.
          An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.

          When people read a post, they have to make an evaluation of the worth of the post based on their experience. "How does it relate to what I know?" If the interest in the subject matter is passing, or of little relevance to their needs, they move on. Skimming the post to see if it is relevant, then posting an inane off topic reply is human nature. Maddening, irritating, human nature.

          If the duplicate penalty thread you started is typical of your writing then perhaps outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims are only good for generating off topic discussion. You certainly made a good argument in that post against your point, which you eventually got to at the end of your 500 or so words. My response to your post was based on my experience, and while perhaps a little flippant I honestly thought that the subject matter was proved 2 years ago. I might go back to that thread and post my results of blind testing with duplicate content on my now defunct affiliate sites.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL

          I have never seen a problem with people reading my stuff until recent weeks.

          I see it as an opportunity to learn how to better communicate with others.

          To that goal, I will continue moving forward.
          Perhaps that was because your earlier posts were clear cut and very straightforward in nature, as opposed to the last few subtle and cunning ones, which you had created to illustrate a particular point?
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

            Bill...

            I have not kept up with this since my earlier posts. Hope you know I was
            joking about the tome-threads thing.

            I actually like reading your threads/posts/War 'n Peace articles/...

            You're fun to read. Actually, I didn't discover you until quite recently. I have
            no idea why, either. Different shipping lanes?? lol

            Ken

            Ken: I think different shipping lanes...

            I have been in article marketing since 2000, but I first met Wags about six months ago. People were floored that we did not even know of each other.

            I have been a member of WF since 2004, but I have only truly been active since about Aug-Sept of 2010.

            I had only 84 posts in June of 2010.

            No problem on the novels comment. Everyone asks when they hear I am doing a post at the WF if I am writing another novel. And it is always an acceptable question to ask.

            My wife tells me I talk way too much, and have way too much to say. So no offense taken.

            The truth is that it is extremely difficult to offend me, and often harder to piss me off. That is just how I roll. And it sure pisses off the wife when she is in a mood to fight.



            Originally Posted by BrianTerr View Post

            An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.

            When people read a post, they have to make an evaluation of the worth of the post based on their experience. "How does it relate to what I know?" If the interest in the subject matter is passing, or of little relevance to their needs, they move on. Skimming the post to see if it is relevant, then posting an inane off topic reply is human nature. Maddening, irritating, human nature.

            If the duplicate penalty thread you started is typical of your writing then perhaps outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims are only good for generating off topic discussion. You certainly made a good argument in that post against your point, which you eventually got to at the end of your 500 or so words. My response to your post was based on my experience, and while perhaps a little flippant I honestly thought that the subject matter was proved 2 years ago. I might go back to that thread and post my results of blind testing with duplicate content on my now defunct affiliate sites.

            I don't get everything on the first pass either.

            I try to read everything, but some people are boring to read. I could name names, but I won't. LOL

            Sometimes when reading, I realize that I missed the point of the last paragraph, and when motivated to do so, I will go back and read it again for clarity.

            I always strive to read for clarity, even when I don't have clarity in my own mind.

            I also have ample proof that the Duplicate Content Penalty is horse manure, but no matter the proof you bring to the table, people don't want to see things that prove them to be wrong.

            People generally want to be right, even when there are mounds of evidence that proves to the contrary.

            Outrageous headlines and unsubstantiated claims is something that I am new to doing. I am stretching my wings to see how much effective I can communicate my ideas. And I do those things primarily to drag eyeballs into a thread and to spark conversation.

            To be honest, I don't do that often with articles, not because I am not inclined, but because it is pointless to do if you cannot have an open discussion about it afterward. So I reserve much of that kind of thing for the forums, so that people can jump in and tell me what an idiot I am.

            I have nearly given up the battle on the duplicate content penalty, frankly because I am tired of fighting people who are unwilling to see those things they do not want to see.

            But you can bet that if I start a thread on that topic, it is because I am in a playful mood, and I want to play with people.


            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            Perhaps that was because your earlier posts were clear cut and very straightforward in nature, as opposed to the last few subtle and cunning ones, which you had created to illustrate a particular point?

            Nah, that is not it.

            People were skimming my forum posts long before I started playing the subtle games to show people this topic and to bring it into the mainstream of the discussions.


            On that note, I found an interesting interview tonight, where Kevin Rogers and John Carlton are talking about people who skim sales copy.

            John Carlton said that people who skim sales copy are not in your target audience anyway, because they are looking for information and not products.

            Listen here: John Carlton Interviews | Kevin Rogers|Direct Response Copywriting Expert|Marketing Consultant|The Copywriter's Edge
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              You know, as I am reading some of the comments in this thread, I am
              being reminded of how many really intelligent people there are in this forum.

              Bill, I think I actually knew of you before you knew about me. And listening
              to you speak about issues at the FNC, I got a real insight into what a bright
              bulb you really are...as are a lot of people here.

              Honestly, at times...I almost feel like an idiot in comparison.

              But Martin, you really hit the nail on the head. It's okay to skim. God knows
              there is too much to read here to read every single word. But if you're
              going to butt your two cents into the conversation, especially if you are
              going to go on a rant about something, you better at least know what's gone down in the thread prior to you making yourself look like a jackass.

              Sadly, as you also said, most of these people won't even bother to come
              back to see that they've totally missed the point of the discussion and
              the subsequent abuse that they've probably received from the irate
              members who can't understand how somebody can totally miss the point
              of whatever it was that went down.

              It's like driving down the highway, oblivious to the cars around you,
              causing a massive traffic accident and driving away without even knowing
              that you've left 10 dead bodies in your wake.

              People like that only make me shake my head and wonder if we're living
              on the same planet.

              Rest assured, if I come bursting into a thread breathing fire and brimstone,
              I damn well read what went down before I put in my two cents.

              But as you can probably tell from my post count, I'm a forum junkie and
              actually enjoy reading people's opinions.

              Some folks just can't be bothered and rather spout off like a beached
              whale because they have nothing better to do.

              Okay, I'm done.

              Hopefully, I've made some kind of a point in all this. If not, blame it on the
              early morning hour and the fact that I'm half asleep.
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                It's like driving down the highway, oblivious to the cars around you,
                causing a massive traffic accident and driving away without even knowing
                that you've left 10 dead bodies in your wake.

                People like that only make me shake my head and wonder if we're living
                on the same planet.

                Great analogy Steve.

                Sometimes I think different planet. Sometimes I just wonder if I am schizophrenic. LOL
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            • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              Ken: I think different shipping lanes...
              Not surprising! There are a million of them. lol

              My wife tells me I talk way too much, and have way too much to say. So no offense taken.
              Well from what I've read, not that I stalk you here lol, your posts are
              intelligent with a dash of down home, good natured wit and humility.

              Quite unlike others who would not be worth mentioning even if I could.

              See ya 'round the ranch.


              Ken
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
        Originally Posted by BrianTerr View Post

        An excellent answer :-) We are all guilty of skimming, and honestly, do you "get" everything you read? I know I don't.
        The problem isn't really that people skim - that's their prerogative. It is that they half read something, can't be bothered to read follow up posts that may offer clarity, and then barge in with their own opinions. Opinions that are more often than not plain wrong.

        The result is that at best they look like idiots, and at worst they have helped propogate misunderstandings. But as they haven't read the thread, and probably won't invest any time in following it up, so remain blissfully unaware of any of that.

        Skim all you like - goodness knows that there is way too much on the WF to read every word - but if you plan to join in a discussion at least have the grace to understand what is being discussed. That's all I ask.

        My suggestion of a gentle way of calling these folks out would hopefully go some way to making them, at the very least, take a littel more care before firing off unconsidered responses to threads they are only half aware of the real meaning of.

        Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting.

        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Martin,

          I was thinking of starting a thread along similar lines the other day.

          The thing is, it's not just about skimming. Other 'misdemeanors' come to mind:

          1. People don't understand smileys. The amount of times I've put a smiley after a post and people think I'm deadly serious.

          2. They read the OP but don't bother reading the info in the embedded link (which is what the whole thrust of the thread is based on).

          3. They use their reply to self-promote "As I was saying on my blog www . spammylink .com . . . "


          I think these issues are more of a "got that off my chest - now I feel better" rather than something you can legislate against.

          This comment of yours is perhaps the most pertinent:

          Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting. (my bold)
          You can't change these people, just change your own attitude so that they no longer get your goat.


          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post


            You can't change these people, just change your own attitude so that they no longer get your goat.
            Funnily enough, it isn't my goat that concerns me primarily. I'm a big boy and it takes a bit more than a few scatterbrained idiots to really annoy me.

            But I do beleive that you can change people - provided they can see that the change is in their own self interest.

            My motivation is more to educate these people a little to the idea that paying attention and thinking before blindly reacting is the only real way to be successful - after all, the WF is about helping people to be more successful, I think.

            Surely pointing out to them that they are not doing themselves any favours is a step in the right direction?

            Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

          The problem isn't really that people skim - that's their prerogative. It is that they half read something, can't be bothered to read follow up posts that may offer clarity, and then barge in with their own opinions. Opinions that are more often than not plain wrong.

          The result is that at best they look like idiots, and at worst they have helped propogate misunderstandings. But as they haven't read the thread, and probably won't invest any time in following it up, so remain blissfully unaware of any of that.

          Skim all you like - goodness knows that there is way too much on the WF to read every word - but if you plan to join in a discussion at least have the grace to understand what is being discussed. That's all I ask.

          My suggestion of a gentle way of calling these folks out would hopefully go some way to making them, at the very least, take a littel more care before firing off unconsidered responses to threads they are only half aware of the real meaning of.

          Forums are great places to have discussions, conversations, even occasionally arguments (politely I hope) but the skimmers are analogous to the person you are chatting to at a party who is constantly looking over your shoulder and only half paying attention to the conversation: rude and distracting.

          Martin
          Martin, of course it'd be impossible to ban skimming, as that would simply not be feasible to institute in a forum of this stature and size.

          However, fully reading and trying one's best to comprehend a thread has to be a prerequisite in order to discuss important points and also be able to contribute meaningfully to the thread. That has to be the price of admission one has to give in order to be able to participate, and while something like this could never be formally enforced, members could be self-policing in this regard and watch out for skimmers who are dropping inane comments in threads. This would at least make things very inhospitable for these people, and cut down on these unwanted occurrences.

          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Theend
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Theend View Post

      Genius! I like, would it show who skimmed you - What do you think about that?

      We don't need a button to show us who skimmed the thread.

      You did it just now, and there is no such button to tell me that you did.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by Theend View Post

      Genius! I like, would it show who skimmed you - What do you think about that?
      ^^Priceless^^.

      BTW, another addition to the WF, one I've been advocating it since I started noticing these dismal posts increase over time... The "shakes head in disbelief" smiley. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

    In order to succeed, you have to pay attention.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Sure I get upset when the newsletters I get are all pitch too but I wouldn't go so far as to say we should get revenge on those people who send the emails.

    "Revenge" is a bit harsh but maybe we should just simply unsubscribe from those people who "abuse" their email lists. Many of them are just sending out what they were taught to send out even if it's just by example.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      just skimmin' ?
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Sure I get upset when the newsletters I get are all pitch too but I wouldn't go so far as to say we should get revenge on those people who send the emails.

      "Revenge" is a bit harsh but maybe we should just simply unsubscribe from those people who "abuse" their email lists. Many of them are just sending out what they were taught to send out even if it's just by example.

      Mark
      I can't work out if you are a prime example of what this thread is about, or if you are just taking the piss.
      Signature
      Martin Avis publishes Kickstart Newsletter - Subscribe free at http://kickstartnewsletter.com
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        Originally Posted by Martin.Avis View Post

        I can't work out if you are a prime example of what this thread is about, or if you are just taking the piss.
        Where's that button when you need it?

        Seriously skimming annoys me too. Most of them aren't joking though and I agree - that's sad.

        They call that "half-cocked" where I come from.

        Mark
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        • Profile picture of the author KEY
          while I do like the concept? I think that there is
          already enough 'pun-ishment' laid onto the people
          that do this sort of thing. few continue not being
          sure that they have the right of things before
          posting after the digital swirlies that some WF
          members deliver :p

          there is already an member-2-member infraction
          button. maybe we should be using it more?
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    I don't like skim either.

    However due to health reasons I do have to drink skim or at least 2% but no more.

    My mom used to call skim blue john.

    Works pretty well though with the special K diet.

    IMHO

    George Wright
    Signature
    "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

      I don't like skim either.

      However due to health reasons I do have to drink skim or at least 2% but no more.

      My mom used to call skim blue john.

      Works pretty well though with the special K diet.

      IMHO

      George Wright
      LOL George way to go with the humor Always a pleasure to read your posts
      thanks for the laugh
      -Will
      Signature

      "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"

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  • Profile picture of the author humbledmarket
    Banned
    Just Skimmed your thread seems like a great idea ;D
    In all seriousness I think this is a very unique idea I completely understand what you mean. Sometimes I'd be posting a thread and receive answers completely irrelevent.

    But I cannot complain since sometimes if I'm honest I do it myself as well. the problem is that we want to learn and add to the community but many times we don't have the time because we're working on our own business. So we Skim the thread as we do with many other reading materials. It's actually very common not only in forums but in general. You skim something to see if it has any added value or any benefit to you but many times it can also be formed into an annoying habit as you said with detrimental results for other readers.

    It gets annoying when it becomes a trend though. An incentive will definitely change things but it might also change involvement in the community since some people don't have the time to read 1000 word threads or replies like this current post is soon becoming.

    In short if you're skimming this: Great Idea but we should also be a little patient with others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Victor Edson
    You definitely need a skimmer. It will help remove a lot of the toxic crap in your salt water fishtank's water. Clean water is the most important part of a good reef tank, and even if you only have a fish only tank, it will help keep your fish healthy.

    Mine is in the refugium, but the Hang on Back kinds are good too.

    Hope this answered your Skimmer question!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
      Originally Posted by Victor Edson View Post

      You definitely need a skimmer. It will help remove a lot of the toxic crap in your salt water fishtank's water. Clean water is the most important part of a good reef tank, and even if you only have a fish only tank, it will help keep your fish healthy.

      Mine is in the refugium, but the Hang on Back kinds are good too.

      Hope this answered your Skimmer question!!!
      Funny. Back in the 90s I had about 8 salt water tanks going in my
      apt. The biggest was a 75 gal reef tank, right next to my bed. It was
      great to look at, very relaxing.

      Yes, I had protein skimmers, water polishers, etc.. etc. Water quality
      is everything.


      Ken
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