No seller protection with Paypal?!

13 years ago

The issue is that with digital products you really do not have any substantial proof of delivery. This is an issue that a lot of warriors are seeming to have with PayPal. They are sort of the dictator of payment processors. There are other options and the number of users here is quite large. I am sure with a bit of leverage we can change PayPal to work for us instead of against us.

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muyilleum

13 years ago

Thanks for this information. I would also love to know if this it is true as I use PayPal on a number of sites.

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Silas Hart

13 years ago

Easiest method would be to convert your digital products into physical products. Can be done for less than a couple dollars per disc, and shipping is pretty cheap for disks. You can probably tack an extra $1 onto your product, and an extra $2+cost of shipping.

You actually increased the value of this item this way too. Plus, this now gives you tracking information when you use PayPal Shipping Labels.

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sam770

13 years ago

Originally Posted by FaJeeb

Easiest method would be to convert your digital products into physical products. Can be done for less than a couple dollars per disc, and shipping is pretty cheap for disks. You can probably tack an extra $1 onto your product, and an extra $2+cost of shipping.

You actually increased the value of this item this way too. Plus, this now gives you tracking information when you use PayPal Shipping Labels.

Man, I wish that it was that simple
Our team writes quality content for big websites, in most cases they demand the content according to a very tight schedule
Starting with shippings is not something that can help as it involved with extra time, delays, vacation days etc
Also, we have clients in Australia, Honk Kong, Europe... to receive a CD from overseas can take more than a week

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Silas Hart

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

Man, I wish that it was that simple
Our team writes quality content for big websites, in most cases they demand the content according to a very tight schedule
Starting with shippings is not something that can help as it involved with extra time, delays, vacation days etc
Also, we have clients in Australia, Honk Kong, Europe... to receive a CD from overseas can take more than a week

My example is for someone that sells eBooks. If you are selling a service, send them a damn CD of the content you made AND e-mail it to them. You just need the tracking number for the seller protection.

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sam770

13 years ago

Originally Posted by FaJeeb

My example is for someone that sells eBooks. If you are selling a service, send them a damn CD of the content you made AND e-mail it to them. You just need the tracking number for the seller protection.

yep, sounds like a nice idea
might work in some cases indeed
however, you mentioned in other thread that you work a lot with paypal and ebay and you are using multiply accounts
what about OTHER payment solutions?

I am considering using 2checkout as another payment option next to paypal but I do have 2 questions:
A) What is the main difference between paypal and 2checkout? are they both offer a similar service with minor differences? or there is a big concept difference between them?
B) Using 2checkout, will I be able to withdraw my money straight to my Israeli bank account? or to my paypal?

Thanks
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gvannorman

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

yep, sounds like a nice idea
might work in some cases indeed
however, you mentioned in other thread that you work a lot with paypal and ebay and you are using multiply accounts
what about OTHER payment solutions?

I am considering using 2checkout as another payment option next to paypal but I do have 2 questions:
A) What is the main difference between paypal and 2checkout? are they both offer a similar service with minor differences? or there is a big concept difference between them?
B) Using 2checkout, will I be able to withdraw my money straight to my Israeli bank account? or to my paypal?

You could probably get in touch with 2checkout and ask them this. I have not used them so I can not answer that for you. Good Luck.

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Rich Struck

13 years ago

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

PayPal doesn't offer ***BUYER*** protection for digital goods. If someone disputes their purchase, all you have to do is tell PayPal that it was a DIGITAL DOWNLOAD and you will win the dispute.

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Chris Worner

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Rich Struck

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

PayPal doesn't offer ***BUYER*** protection for digital goods. If someone disputes their purchase, all you have to do is tell PayPal that it was a DIGITAL DOWNLOAD and you will win the dispute.

And what is stopping the person from disputing the charge with their bank afterwards?

I go to my bank, explain that I purchased a digital item, didn't receive it, disputed it with PayPal and got told by them better luck next time, who do you think will win that dispute since it is now the consumers bank who decides the outcome, especially when the seller is unable to provide proof that the buyer actually received the item(Assuming that the download wasn't in a protected members area)

PayPal ruling on your favour as the seller still doesn't protect you

Chris

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WD Mino

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

And what is stopping the person from disputing the charge with their bank afterwards?

I go to my bank, explain that I purchased a digital item, didn't receive it, disputed it with PayPal and got told by them better luck next time, who do you think will win that dispute since it is now the consumers bank who decides the outcome, especially when the seller is unable to provide proof that the buyer actually received the item(Assuming that the download wasn't in a protected members area)

PayPal ruling on your favour as the seller still doesn't protect you

Chris

Hi Chris,

If I may I will speak to this.
If you win a dispute with paypal. they release the funds. if a charge back occurs in my experience paypal actually takes it on. They did this for me and it was with a physical product. Buyer opened a dispute. I responded with proper info.
buyer canceled claim. buyer charged back via credit card.
paypal released funds back to me. paypal got word of charge back -what I had to do -nothing they took care of it.

That is my own experience with them regarding what you are saying.
cheers
-Will

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Silas Hart

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

And what is stopping the person from disputing the charge with their bank afterwards?

I go to my bank, explain that I purchased a digital item, didn't receive it, disputed it with PayPal and got told by them better luck next time, who do you think will win that dispute since it is now the consumers bank who decides the outcome, especially when the seller is unable to provide proof that the buyer actually received the item(Assuming that the download wasn't in a protected members area)

PayPal ruling on your favour as the seller still doesn't protect you

Chris

People here who think that if you make a transaction with someone, PayPal will just let you keep the money and tell the buyer "Oh, better luck next time" is full of it for the reasons you pretty much explained.

Typically, when there is a dispute and a seller Tells PayPal "Hey, it was a digital product" - PayPal will give the money BACK to the buyer, and tell the Seller "Hey, we don't offer protection for digital products." This is not opinion, this is fact. It doesn't matter if you take the money out and deposit it into your bank account, they will take it out of your bank account if it is linked.

To PayPal, if you sell a digital product, there is no physical loss. They have very little control over money. Banks, and Especially credit card companies can pull money out with ease, without any consent.

I found this out after selling over $100,000 in World of Warcraft 60 day game cards through PayPal in 2007. About $20,000 of that was forcefully refunded by buyers, their banks, and credit card companies. Rules haven't some how changed.

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sam770

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Rich Struck

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

PayPal doesn't offer ***BUYER*** protection for digital goods. If someone disputes their purchase, all you have to do is tell PayPal that it was a DIGITAL DOWNLOAD and you will win the dispute.

R U sure about that?
cos thats EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what I have heard here

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Rich Struck 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

R U sure about that?
cos thats EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what I have heard here

No I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't sell stuff with PayPal all day long, I have no clue.
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- Tim_Carter 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Rich Struck
  
  No I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't sell stuff with PayPal all day long, I have no clue.
  
  Lol - yes you do.
  
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Vogin 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

R U sure about that?
cos thats EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what I have heard here

Let me offer you a one, totally unrelated, piece of advice:

You need to consider the Warrior Forum as a "little" Wikipedia for Internet Marketing. It's a very good place to ask questions and gather information, but you should never act solely on anything you "hear" here.

It is quite obvious that you need to ask PayPal staff about this to get the information you want. Whether they provide it or not, that's a different matter, but you should give it a try.

If you fail, then you can maybe rely on some fellow Warrior who knows the stuff or got a reply on a similar question.
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Jeannette Marshall 13 years ago

How about setting up a site for them to go to, from Paypal, where they have to put in their receipt # and download the product after registering. Then you would have the time and date stamp from their download. Just a thought.
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CDarklock 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

Starting with shippings is not something that can help

What about ending with them?

Deliver the product digitally, then deliver a physical backup copy in case they lose or misplace it.
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- Tim_Carter 13 years ago
  
  um - I guess you didn't read before you posted?
  See the last sentence of my last post.
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  What about ending with them?
  
  Deliver the product digitally, then deliver a physical backup copy in case they lose or misplace it.
  
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suemax 13 years ago

Fajeeb has come up with what I consider to be a GREAT idea!! You are also adding value by creating a physical product - value that can be reflected in the price.
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sam770 13 years ago

Originally Posted by gvannorman

They are sort of the dictator of payments

I am considering using 2checkout as another payment option next to paypal but I do have 2 questions:
A) What is the main difference between paypal and 2checkout? are they both offer a similar service with minor differences? or there is a big concept difference between them?
B) Using 2checkout, will I be able to withdraw my money straight to my Israeli bank account? or to my paypal?
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E. Brian Rose

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

Is it true that a buyer can simply claim that he did not recieve a service from me and get his money back immediately?

They can do this with a regular merchant account, as well. It's called a chargeback.

There is a new breed of thief emerging. They're called consumers.

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gvannorman

13 years ago

As a writer 99% of your business is done online. You find the client online, you submit the work online and get paid online.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

Currently I am paypal as my only paymet solution

Is that true that as a seller I do not have seller protection at all?
My main business is digital products and services, not books or iphones...
Is it true that a buyer can simply claim that he did not recieve a service from me and get his money back immediately?

No, it's not true. Paypal doesn't offer buyer protection on digital goods, and most of the time will not issue refunds on digital goods just because someone asks for it. The customer could still file a charge back via their credit card, but that's a different issue. They can do that no matter who your payment processor is.

In my experience, it's nothing to worry about. Most customers aren't going to make bogus refund requests just to get your stuff for free. As long as you aren't putting out crap, you'll be fine. Besides, what's the alternative? Sell nothing? Sure, your refund rate will be zero, but you'll be selling zero too, lol.

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Steve Wells

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

No, it's not true. Paypal doesn't offer buyer protection on digital goods, and most of the time will not issue refunds on digital goods just because someone asks for it. The customer could still file a charge back via their credit card, but that's a different issue. They can do that no matter who your payment processor is.

In my experience, it's nothing to worry about. Most customers aren't going to make bogus refund requests just to get your stuff for free. As long as you aren't putting out crap, you'll be fine. Besides, what's the alternative? Sell nothing? Sure, your refund rate will be zero, but you'll be selling zero too, lol.

Correct, I have had very, very few refund requests, usually I try to handle those one on one, before refunding, meaning I try to solve the problem.

I have had paypal grant me as a winner in a Paypal dispute, regarding a software program. Of course I offered to show them records of the download and activation of the product. I have access to this type of information with one product of mine, because it calls home to daddy once its activated and everytime its turned on, to check for the latest updates....

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CyberSorcerer

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Wells

I have access to this this type of information with one product of mine, because it calls home to daddy once its activated and everytime its turned on, to check for the latest updates....

But you do realize that that can be taken out by some good RCE?

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Steve Wells

13 years ago

Originally Posted by CyberSorcerer

But you do realize that that can be taken out by some good RCE?

If they know programming well enough and want to take the time to steal a 50 dollar program, that will not work once they fire it up and I realize it was stolen then they can be my guest....

Believe me, I will know if it has been stolen, then it gets deactivated....... we've have had it happen at least once before, and whats even funnier is my partner has the program set-up that if someone steals it, the next time they activate it, after we find out its stolen, they get a self destruct message and they have to pretty much restart their enitire computer to get it to go away.

This was not my idea, it was my programmers idea, and I honestly did not like it, but since he is the main controlling partner of the product, I really had no say so....

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CyberSorcerer

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Wells

If they know programming well enough and want to take the time to steal a 50 dollar program, that will not work once they fire it up and I realize it was stolen then they can be my guest....

Believe me, I will know if it has been stolen, then it gets deactivated....... we've have had it happen at least once before, and whats even funnier is my partner has the program set-up that if someone steals it, the next time they activate it, after we find out its stolen, they get a self destruct message and they have to pretty much restart their enitire computer to get it to go away.

This was not my idea, it was my programmers idea, and I honestly did not like it, but since he is the main controlling partner of the product, I really had no say so....

Just remember some of the most sophisticated software out there has tried some VERY sophisticated, cryptic, and creative programming techniques to keep from being reverse engineered. Malware, and rootkits, have some of THE most sophistication out there, and use malware researchers STILL completely reverse them.

So be sure to reassure your programmer that ANY program can be reversed for what ever reason.

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suemax

13 years ago

Calling home to the Mother Ship is a great "proof" that it's in action, of course, but that is not relevant to eBooks. I guess the physical product trick and the "safety in numbers" concept (i.e sell more so that the odd refund is just in the course of trade) is as good as it can get with ebooks.

There might one day be a "name and shame" facility somewhere (on here?) for persistent thieves to be listed on? Tricky legally I guess, but I bet the same guys do it time and time again.

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Robert Puddy

13 years ago

Originally Posted by suemax

Calling home to the Mother Ship is a great "proof" that it's in action, of course, but that is not relevant to eBooks. I guess the physical product trick and the "safety in numbers" concept (i.e sell more so that the odd refund is just in the course of trade) is as good as it can get with ebooks.

There might one day be a "name and shame" facility somewhere (on here?) for persistent thieves to be listed on? Tricky legally I guess, but I bet the same guys do it time and time again.

it would work for ebooks if you make them log in to get their download

once they login you have their IP adress and time of download etc
we even log the number of times the logged in and the last time and date they did so

The User Last Logged in on: 2011-01-06 08:34:53
Has Logged in 4 times
Signup IP: 220.220.20.106
Last Login IP: 118.19.134.71

thats all you need for paypal to refuse the refund

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paulie888

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

No, it's not true. Paypal doesn't offer buyer protection on digital goods, and most of the time will not issue refunds on digital goods just because someone asks for it. The customer could still file a charge back via their credit card, but that's a different issue. They can do that no matter who your payment processor is.

In my experience, it's nothing to worry about. Most customers aren't going to make bogus refund requests just to get your stuff for free. As long as you aren't putting out crap, you'll be fine. Besides, what's the alternative? Sell nothing? Sure, your refund rate will be zero, but you'll be selling zero too, lol.

While there's still the possibility this could happen, but the likelihood of it occurring on a regular basis is almost zero. I wouldn't worry about it myself, by worrying about something that might happen with 0.01% of your overall purchases, you could be depriving yourself of hundreds of sales via Paypal.

Just keep using Paypal. If this ever happens, just consider it a minor business expense that is a cost of doing business online, lol.

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Steve Wells

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sam770

Currently I am paypal as my only paymet solution

Is that true that as a seller I do not have seller protection at all?
My main business is digital products and services, not books or iphones...
Is it true that a buyer can simply claim that he did not recieve a service from me and get his money back immediately?
What could I do in such case?!

I am considering using 2checkout as another payment option next to paypal but I do have 2 questions:
A) What is the main difference between paypal and 2checkout? are they both offer a similar service with minor differences? or there is a big concept difference between them?
B) Using 2checkout, will I be able to withdraw my money straight to my Israeli bank account? or to my paypal?

Correct, you need to send them something physical to have seller protection. From my research you are only required to show proof that it was mailed not that is was recieved....

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jasonmorgan

13 years ago

From my research you are only required to show proof that it was mailed not that is was recieved...

Send 'em a postcard with a CPA offer.

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JennSpencerIM

13 years ago

I'm confused about Paypal recently with this "seller protection" issue. I have a physical product and had proof that it was shipped and received by the buyer...however the buyer claimed they never initiated that payment and their account was broken into. Funny enough, the person who used their account shipped the item to the account holder...YEAH RIGHT! Anyhow, Paypal told me that I had no "seller protection" on that purchase and it was my fault because I accepted the payment. So really not sure how much of their "seller protection" would help you anyways....since people who want the product AND a refund, will find a way to get it!! Regardless of whether or not you ship a product. Sad but true I've found out.

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CAPTCHAbiz

13 years ago

That's true, PP do not offer seller protection for digital items. Though in most cases seller wins.

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Tim_Carter

13 years ago

The seller will always win a dispute for digital goods. Just escalate to a claim and say intangible goods. But first give the download link again in the customer comments and note that it is immediately downloadable.

As for services Paypal won't refund services.

So you are good to go.

edit*********8

This is a FACT!

Anyone that says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. I have been doing this a long time and have NEVER lost a dispute on a digital product as a seller.

Chargebacks are another matter - but I have won 70% of the few that I have had.

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WD Mino

13 years ago

This is my experience as well Tim
-Will

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Tim_Carter

13 years ago

To put an end to any speculation look part way down this page:
https://cms.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/ma...rProtComp_full

However, the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy does not apply to the following items in the following circumstances:

intangibles (for example digitally delivered goods), although we may cover intangibles which have been transferred to a physical media (such as paper or CD-ROM), for example: electronic tickets that have been physically printed and shipped,

So by copying to DVD and shipping you can LOSE THE DISPUTE!

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No seller protection with Paypal?!

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