New Canadian anti-spam law

13 years ago

Once the Can-Spam law was implemented in the USA, it was understood that rest of the countries would soon follow the trend.

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CDarklock 13 years ago

Originally Posted by EliteIM

Once the Can-Spam law was implemented in the USA, it was understood that rest of the countries would soon follow the trend.

Eight years later is soon?
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- Alexa Smith Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Eight years later is soon?
  
  It is in online business: sometimes developments online are really slow. Many predictions Bill Gates made about 20 years ago that he swore would come true within 10 years have still not yet got there. I blame you, for leaving Microsoft's employ, myself ...
  
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deanameske

13 years ago

I am not opt into receiving emails but still im getting lots of spam messages from canadian firms. So does the law applies to them?

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

I am not opt into receiving emails but still im getting lots of spam messages from canadian firms. So does the law applies to them?

Yes, but you probably have to be a Canadian citizen to file suit. Not sure on that one yet, but it seems likely. We need to get some of the Canuckistani legal types in here to comment more authoritatively.

Paul
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Paul Myers

13 years ago

EliteIM,

CAN-SPAM is nothing next to this.

Contrary to what many people believe, CAN-SPAM does not make spamming illegal in the US. It's an opt-out regime. The Canadian law (FISA, for Fighting Internet and Wireless Spam Act) changes that completely. It requires permission. And it's got two big sets of nasty, pointy teeth: The penalties are hefty and it guarantees private right of action.

Paul

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

EliteIM,

CAN-SPAM is nothing next to this.

Contrary to what many people believe, CAN-SPAM does not make spamming illegal in the US. It's an opt-out regime. The Canadian law (FISA, for Fighting Internet and Wireless Spam Act) changes that completely. It requires permission. And it's got two big sets of nasty, pointy teeth: The penalties are hefty and it guarantees private right of action.

Paul

Can Spam(don't you LOVE(sarc) the akronym?), DOES forbid anonymous emails, masking routing, hacking, using open relays, and mailing over 3 days after valid unsubscribe ATTEMPTS! So if you have a bad unsubscribe link, and they try to unsubscribe several times, and you send the email, YOU have broken the law. There ARE list laws, but you KNOW those are broken. One wonders how you could ever enforce such things.

SO, though it doesn't specifically disallow sending email without permission, it DOES prohibit annonymity, persistance against the recipients wishes, and methods many spammers use.

BTW I checked several emails at random, from little guys and big, and ALL had physical addresses. Before can-spam that was practically UNHEARD OF!

Unfortunately, due to the nature of email, you HAVE to allow at least one email within reason. The double optin method is used because there is NO direct way for a user to confirm that they have control of an email account. If they can send you something you have sent them, VIA EMAIL, THEN you can be pretty sure that they have control. But you have to send them the link via EMAIL. Of course, that can't go so far as to allow you to send EVERYONE a piece of email.

Steve

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Joseph Ratliff 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

...and it guarantees private right of action.

Nuff said right there, thanks for pointing this one out Paul.
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Robert Puddy 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

And it's got two big sets of nasty, pointy teeth: The penalties are hefty and it guarantees private right of action.

Paul

No problem with this as long as its balanced in the oposite direction, in that someone falsly accuses me of spamming them can be fined or thrown in jail to

If i am accused taken to court and clearly prove they opted in and they were told they would get additional promotional emails, they must be punished to deter people who do this out of spite or becuase they just couldnt be bothered to use the unsubscribe link
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Chris Worner

13 years ago

Oh I wish the US would institute a law like that, it would be incredibly funny to see the looks on the faces of those 'email marketers'(I use that term loosely) and the look on the judges face when he/she is told by the 'marketer' that although they didn't mention on the squeeze page that they would be sending promo email after promo email everyday, the person whos inbox was inundated with these 'emails' signed up for it.

I guess I can dream.....

Chris

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Kevin Riley 13 years ago

Why do I picture a man in red serge on snowshoes, wandering through Nigeria with his tracking beaver, looking for a spammer?
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Worner

Oh I wish the US would institute a law like that, it would be incredibly funny to see the looks on the faces of those 'email marketers'(I use that term loosely) and the look on the judges face when he/she is told by the 'marketer' that although they didn't mention on the squeeze page that they would be sending promo email after promo email everyday, the person whos inbox was inundated with these 'emails' signed up for it.

I guess I can dream.....

Chris

Some states HAVE! California and Virginia have, as I recall.

Steve

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lgibbon

Banned 13 years ago

Does that mean I won't be getting anymore of that Canadian drug spam then?
Hopefully they'll be putting their own house in order first.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Les,

Does that mean I won't be getting anymore of that Canadian drug spam then? Hopefully they'll be putting their own house in order first.

I don't think much of that comes from Canada, and I'm not sure most of the "Canadian Pharmacy" sites are actually located in Canada.

Some are, and they'll get hit hard when this goes into effect. That's one of the things that could make this interesting. It doesn't just penalize the spamming affiliate, it also directly holds the merchant/beneficiary responsible under circumstances in which they know, or should know, about the spam.

That's one of the parts I need to re-read to be clearer on, but it's my current impression.

Paul

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lgibbon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Les,I don't think much of that comes from Canada, and I'm not sure most of the "Canadian Pharmacy" sites are actually located in Canada.

I'm not sure they really want to stop spam at all.
If they did, they could of put pressure on the payment processors.
You click on the order link on most of this drug spam
and you'll notice the worlds largest processor is in on the act.
Put the squeeze on them and spam would stop all by it's self.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by lgibbon

I'm not sure they really want to stop spam at all.
If they did, they could of put pressure on the payment processors.
You click on the order link on most of this drug spam
and you'll notice the worlds largest processor is in on the act.
Put the squeeze on them and spam would stop all by it's self.

No it wouldn't. Most payment for spam is INDIRECT! Either payment up front, or affiliate payments later.

Steve

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Hey Paul,

I was wrong to make fun of the FTC the other day... My government is finally making some laws that will change Marketing too... And now, it makes me realize it works the same with whoever you target.

For those talking about those Canadian Pharma ads. Those are never sent from Canadian Servers, they are sent out of russia, nigeria and other places. Bill tried to get me on that one, so I looked into some of my spam box.

Thanks Paul for the alert about this bill, I'm about to look into the bill, as I usually watch Canadian laws.

Thanks again

Caleb

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen

Hey Paul,

I was wrong to make fun of the FTC the other day... My government is finally making some laws that will change Marketing too... And now, it makes me realize it works the same with whoever you target.

For those talking about those Canadian Pharma ads. Those are never sent from Canadian Servers, they are sent out of russia, nigeria and other places. Bill tried to get me on that one, so I looked into some of my spam box.

Thanks Paul for the alert about this bill, I'm about to look into the bill, as I usually watch Canadian laws.

Thanks again

Caleb

And did you notice that Americans are NOT saying "LET'S IGNORE THIS LAW! It does NOT affect us!"! Americans get a bad rap sometimes. HEY, sometimes CANADIANS do! Tell ya what! I'll ignore the bad canadian stereotypes, and you can ignore the bad American ones! DEAL?

Steve

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Any citizen you torque off can haul you into court for spamming them.

That's true -- But in terms of Canadian Civil issues, from what I've heard from friends & family it's not very easy to take any type of legal action towards people in civil court. Although, again it's the CRTC which runs differently then what I would call main stream.

I am really wondering how easy it's going to be to take action against people, because it's getting amazingly tiring of all these e-mails.

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JohnCalvinII

13 years ago

So if a Canadian spams me I can make the trip to Canada, find a lawyer, file a lawsuit and wait for the system to work? Not sure exactly of how well that would work. It might be a good deal for Canadians receiving spam, but for the rest of the world receiving Canadian spam I doubt it will have much effect.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

John,

The deterrent effect is going to be in the notion that a spammer won't know for sure which addresses might belong to Canadian citizens.

The US generates a large chunk of what is called "mainsleaze" spam - unsolicited bulk email from (or benefiting) otherwise legitimate companies. Kraft Foods' Gevalia brand and VistaPrint come to mind as good examples.

Such companies have a lot to lose in cases under this law. Judgments in Canadian courts can be enforced on American citizens and companies.

Paul

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

John,

The deterrent effect is going to be in the notion that a spammer won't know for sure which addresses might belong to Canadian citizens.

...

SOME spammers assume the IP address is a good indicator.
SOME JUST DON'T CARE!
OTHERS HIJACK and figure OTHERS will get blamed.

Don't think any laws like this will stop the REAL scum.

What we need is a REAL IP trace, REAL valid logging of IDs, and Free information sharing, or somehow change the email protocol ENTIRELY, so it is perhaps point to point, encrypted, and has an assigned ID! THEN spammers will have little protection. Unfortunately, such changes could be DECADES away. 8-(

Steve
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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

John,

So if a Canadian spams me I can make the trip to Canada, find a lawyer, file a lawsuit and wait for the system to work? Not sure exactly of how well that would work. It might be a good deal for Canadians receiving spam, but for the rest of the world receiving Canadian spam I doubt it will have much effect.

I don't know whether you would be considered a part of this law, since you are on the receiving end of a Canadian sending spam. This law was designed, to protect Canadians -- but, I'm sure it applies to Canadian citizens.

So I would think if a Canadian is spamming you, you could take similar actions through your countries court processes for violation of the CAN SPAM or your particular law, in the same way that we could take someone for a violation of this law in Canada.

I don't know if I'm missing something here-- I expect Paul will tell me if I am.

Caleb

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Les,

Not if they're using phished accounts or other means of obfuscating the destination of the funds.

Caleb,

CAN-SPAM does not provide for private citizens initiating suits. It's also much harder to meet the standards for conviction than it will be under the Canadian law.

Paul

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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

Paul,

CAN-SPAM does not provide for private citizens initiating suits. It's also much harder to meet the standards for conviction than it will be under the Canadian law.

Ahh -- I didn't realize that. I had no problems with most of the restrictions with the CAN Spam because I understand them all. I'm digesting the Canadian one, but I wonder how this will turn out...

Caleb

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Andyhenry

13 years ago

That's great.

I hope that WSO sellers read it.

I've lost track of the number of times I've bought a WSO and then started getting emails every time they make a product. I'd love an option for "I want product updates and NOTHING else" when purchasing.

There are some people who I'd have bought from again but didn't becuase they treated the customer list as a sales list for unrelated stuff.

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Dan C. Rinnert 13 years ago

How do we know if someone is Canadian by their eMail address?
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- Michael Shook 13 years ago
  
  I am wondering what this might mean for an eamil marketer who has people who have been on their list for 5 years or so.
  
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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Andy,

Existing business relationship. They have to include an unsubscribe link and honor that, but that is not forbidden. One of the 'implied consent' situations I mentioned earlier.

Dan,

How do we know if someone is Canadian by their eMail address?

We don't, unless their address ends in .ca. Which is why this impacts anyone who sends to or through Canada.

Paul

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Dan C. Rinnert 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Dan,We don't, unless their address ends in .ca. Which is why this impacts anyone who sends to or through Canada.

Another reason to use confirmed opt-in then. Because with unconfirmed opt-in, some troublemaker could signup a bunch of Canadians to your eMail list through your web form, sit back and enjoy some popcorn while watching the fireworks.
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Caleb Spilchen

13 years ago

How do we know if someone is Canadian by their eMail address?

You don't. If you use Aweber, doesn't the IP get trcked?

Caleb

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Paul_Short

13 years ago

For myself, the most interesting part of this new legislation will be to see how some of the first cases play out in court. It'll be the enforcement that really shapes how it'll affect email marketers brought before the judges, and how other email marketers react as a result.

Ideally, this could be a good thing considering the nature of the Canadian legal system being a bit more subdued than in the U.S. when it comes to filing suit against private companies and citizens. Let's just hope we don't see a snowball effect like we did with all the politically correctness BS being turned into law in the future or we may end up having to call people on the phone or get written permission from someone before we send them an email.

Paul

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Michael,

I am wondering what this might mean for an eamil marketer who has people who have been on their list for 5 years or so.

For those addresses, probably nothing. I have a sub-section of my list on which the newest address was added over 6 years ago. With an unsubscribe link in every issue, one would think that covers the "due diligence" aspect of the sender protections of the law.

Paul,

Confirmed opt-in should suffice to avoid those problems. The number of people who want to do away with all solicited commercial email is very, very small. And easily ignored, since they're rather well into crackpot range by most standards.

What the majority of recipients want is to regain choice and flexibility in the matter.

Paul

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Michael Shook

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Michael,For those addresses, probably nothing. I have a sub-section of my list on which the newest address was added over 6 years ago. With an unsubscribe link in every issue, one would think that covers the "due diligence" aspect of the sender protections of the law.

Thanks, Paul, some of mine go back 5 years. I send a messge every once in a while telling folks this is a double optin confirmed list they are on.

I am not a big promo/launch sort of person anyway, but that's just me.

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Rukshan

13 years ago

What about Canadian Pharmacy spams? I get these kinds of spams to junk folder

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alcymart

13 years ago

I live in Canada and adhere to the Can-Spam act regardless which states:

CAN-SPAM Act

Mailings are CAN-SPAM compliant if:

the subject line is not misleading and advertisements are clearly labeled as such;
the email headers, sending email address and other identifiers in
the headers have not been tampered with in order to conceal your
identity;
the body of the email contains a valid physical address for
the sender; and
the email contains a functioning opt-out mechanism, and opt out
requests are honored within 10 business days of receipt of that
request.

Take care,

Bernard St-Pierre
Marketing Consultant
Copywriter/Teacher

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alcymart

I live in Canada and adhere to the Can-Spam act regardless which states:

CAN-SPAM Act

Mailings are CAN-SPAM compliant if:

the subject line is not misleading and advertisements are clearly labeled as such;
the email headers, sending email address and other identifiers in
the headers have not been tampered with in order to conceal your
identity;
the body of the email contains a valid physical address for
the sender; and
the email contains a functioning opt-out mechanism, and opt out
requests are honored within 10 business days of receipt of that
request.

Take care,

Bernard St-Pierre
Marketing Consultant
Copywriter/Teacher

WOW, I could swear it was THREE days! Did they actually extend that!?!?!?

Steve

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

WOW, I could swear it was THREE days! Did they actually extend that!?!?!?

No, Steve. It's always been 10 days.

Paul
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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Steve,

I don't consider myself an expert in this area, but I know enough to make this suggestion with a straight face and in good faith: Stick to some of the many subjects about which you have significant clue. This is not one of them.

The overwhelming majority of the real scummy stuff comes from botnets, and is caught by spam blocking systems. No-one expects that the hard core criminals will pay any attention to the law, since what they're doing is already at the level of felony in most countries.

Legislation like this could, if enforced, significantly reduce the amount of mainsleaze garbage that is sent, further cleaning up inboxes all over the world. And yes, it can be used against the scum if they're in countries with which Canada shares solid relations.

Oh... before you quote your understanding of CAN-SPAM again, I'm going to repeat a suggestion I've made to you numerous times in the past: Read the act.

Paul

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Jack Duncan

13 years ago

Paul,
It will certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out.

The implied consent portion will be interesting to watch. I'm not sure most people have a memory span that lasts the 2 years that business' would be allowed to email them.

Wonder what happens when there are so many court cases for people just looking to make a buck or two that they can't even process them all.

From the sound of some of the potential penalty amounts (1 million to 10 million)...there are probably quite a few law firms gearing up to take these cases on.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Jack,

Canadian courts are a bit more cautious than American courts about what they accept, as I hear it. Might just be anecdotal, though, so we'll see.

As far as the number of lawyers gearing up for it... Not just lawyers. I know one fellow who's got a series of targets already defined and ready to sue. And it's nearly certain that, barring a major change in their practices, he'll get the chance.

Paul

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JanG

13 years ago

In Germany we have had those strict laws for years. I am not only forced to have permission for every (commercial) email I'm sending out, I must do it using my real name, as well. This means no 'pen names', 'avatars', or 'personas' in order to cover my privacy in certain niches.

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TrekkieGrrrl

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JanG

In Germany we have had those strict laws for years. I am not only forced to have permission for every (commercial) email I'm sending out, I must do it using my real name, as well. This means no 'pen names', 'avatars', or 'personas' in order to cover my privacy in certain niches.

*emphasis in bold/italics is mine*

That would completely, totally suck. I hope that doesn't ever happen here in the US.

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JanG 13 years ago

Originally Posted by TrekkieGrrrl

*emphasis in bold/italics is mine*

That would completely, totally suck. I hope that doesn't ever happen here in the US.

It certainly does suck big time. I'm currently researching possibilities of setting up an organization in another country in order to get around those limitations. But that's not an easy thing to do, as I've found out.
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WD Mino

13 years ago

Well I think this is fantastic. It is about time my government stepped up and started implementing these things.

If you don't spam or use distasteful tactics then nothing to fear but it is certainly going to help those who do things above board. I like double optin processes myself but my customers who buy go onto a seperate list. I may now need to rethink that.
-Will

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entry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Email senders: If you send email from or to Canada, you'll want to pay attention to this. The fact that the law is Canadian does NOT mean citizens of other countries don't have to follow it.

First, like PIPEDA, it requires opt-in consent prior to sending commercial messages. There are situations in which consent may be considered to be implied, but I wouldn't push that, other than sending mail to customers. And it applies even if you're sending a single, one-off message.

The bill covers all forms of electronic messaging, including email, SMS, instant messaging and social networking sites. Also spyware, malware, phishing and pharming.

Oh, and here's the part that should wake up the folks who laugh about such things and shrug them off, since the government doesn't have the time or resources to go after the little guys: The new law provides for a private right of action. Yeah. Any citizen you torque off can haul you into court for spamming them.

A lot of people can go merrily on their way doing just what they've always done. If you're using confirmed opt-in, especially through a third party system which can provide proper audit trails, you're probably already in compliance.

If you're giving something away on a page that doesn't make clear that the person inputting their address is signing up for a list, you probably aren't, at least as I read things at this point.

I'll be posting more on this as I get the time to read the bill more carefully. You can get the full text, as passed and receiving Royal Assent, here:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublicat...ill&Doc=C-28_4

Get ready for it, folks. This changes a lot of things.

Paul

{Lets say this law hits USA and Europe, or even every country worldwide}

How do we have to change our marketing now?

Do we have to add a new senetnece on our squeeze page/sales page, or email series?

How do we have to change our squeeze page wording?

and How do we have to change our our email series?

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BarberShop

13 years ago

So what's the solution? Make people double opt-in?

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New Canadian anti-spam law

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