What do you do when a customer goes on a rampage against you?

15 years ago

With the fact that she has repeatedly asked you for refunds with everything she has bought from you I would say that the PayPal dispute will go your way!

Sadly though I'm not sure how to best advise you about the fact that she is turning your whole client base against you!?

The only advice I could have given would have been before you actually sold your websites to her. I would have advised you to put a block on her buying from you ever again since she has done nothing but ask for refunds.

Maybe sending emails back to your clients with ALL the proof you have about this issue, showing them that she is doing nothing more than ripping you off time and time again might do the trick?

At least that way they might be able to make more sense out of why this woman contacted them before going to you first!

If all else fails, send in the heavies!!!

Mark

Edit: If the PayPal dispute goes your way couldn't you then start the ball rolling on getting her banned from PayPal altogether so that others don't fall victim to her ways?

If that is a possibility then surely her being banned by PayPal should show your other customers the kind of person she really is, and that her word shouldn't be trusted!

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292812].message }}

Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Brock

Maybe sending emails back to your clients with ALL the proof you have about this issue, showing them that she is doing nothing more than ripping you off time and time again might do the trick?

I wouldn't do that, since it might get you in legal trouble for disclosing her info, plus it may turn off a lot of people who wonder why you are discussing that in public.

Some might believe her and think you are in the wrong and trying to smear her.

They might decide not to buy anything from you in fear that if something goes wrong, their name may get spread around.

It might make an interesting blog post or article if you leave out any personal details, but I wouldn't publish her name or other info.

She should do publicity if she is able to get her message to "the entire Internet."

Thanks

Signature

Comprehensive membership site training
My other blog

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293609].message }}

Mike McBride

15 years ago

Why did you even let her purchase from you again, after she had asked for a refund for every purchase she had made previously?

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292871].message }}

terryd 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike McBride

Why did you even let her purchase from you again, after she had asked for a refund for every purchase she had made previously?

I don't understand that bit either, I would have banned her after the first refund.
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294795].message }}

Frank Ayres

15 years ago

Sounds like complete madness to me, after i refunded the 2nd one i would have banned them from buying again.
I would just call her bluff, don't let people get away with bullying you and remember to ban her from buying again

Thanks

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292881].message }}

MalachaiGoodman

15 years ago

Just out of curiosoity... How does she know who your other customers are and how to contact them?

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292889].message }}

Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Maybe you can email your whole client base and let them know the situation. Honesty is often a good policy, especially in the face of bullshit.

Tell them to call you if they have concerns, or email you, and answer them promptly and back them up with facts.

This is, I guess, damage control. You won't neutralize the situation but you can minimize it.

Then I guess just chalk it up to an expensive lesson.

If I were you I would be thinking about how I could use this in the future. You could make a really cool marketing angle on it. Something about someone trying to take you down because you're talented or whatever.

Just my thoughts.

-Dan

Thanks

Signature

Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292891].message }}

Black Hat Cat

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

O

Yesterday, she sent me threatening emails saying that if I don't refund her she will communicate to the entire internet that I am a scammer.

Wow, the entire internet?

[ 1 ] Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292953].message }}

Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Was that really necessary?

-Dan

Thanks

Signature

Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292958].message }}

cclou

15 years ago

In the future, block these people from bidding on your auctions. If you already have and she's creating new identities to bid on your auctions anyway, that's an Ebay no-no.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292973].message }}

clare1982

15 years ago

Hiya Shezz

I know from experience this can be hard but try not to let her get to you, this is what she obviously wants.

Funnily enough I am going through a similar thing at the moment. I sold a site on a particular forum (not to be named), with the bonus of rewritten articles. I pushed the domain name and sent the sites files after payment was made to me. I was half way through rewriting the articles and a day later I recieved an email from paypal saying that this person had filed a dispute.

I then done a little digging and lo and behold found this person selling this site on a different forum so obviously they no longer wanted the rewritten articles and thought they would make this as their excuse to get their money back.

My paypal dispute is still going on as we speak but I am pretty sure it will go in my favour.

People just can't go around buying websites and filing disputes once they have the domain and files. Sorry about the rant lol it just makes me mad.

Anyway enough about my story. I would definately do as the person says above and email all of your previous buyers and let them know whats going on.

Clare

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293009].message }}

Mark Brock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Hi Shezz,

I am not a lawyer, but that sure sounds like a legal case for libel. Send a cease and desist letter. They are damaging your business. Also, it may be a good idea to pass along a copy of all her emails to PayPal, so they can get a better idea of her "character".

All the best,
Michael

Shezz,

Forget my previous advice (except the whole getting PayPal to ban her permantently thing) and follow Michael's advice instead - just put the message across that legal proceedings are being carried out. This should make her back off and re-evaluate her own life without you needing to involve any lawyers.

Then go after her anyway and teach her a much needed lesson!!!

Originally Posted by clare1982

Hiya Shezz

I know from experience this can be hard but try not to let her get to you, this is what she obviously wants.

Funnily enough I am going through a similar thing at the moment. I sold a site on a particular forum (not to be named), with the bonus of rewritten articles. I pushed the domain name and sent the sites files after payment was made to me. I was half way through rewriting the articles and a day later I recieved an email from paypal saying that this person had filed a dispute.

I then done a little digging and lo and behold found this person selling this site on a different forum so obviously they no longer wanted the rewritten articles and thought they would make this as their excuse to get their money back.

My paypal dispute is still going on as we speak but I am pretty sure it will go in my favour.

People just can't go around buying websites and filing disputes once they have the domain and files. Sorry about the rant lol it just makes me mad.

Anyway enough about my story. I would definately do as the person says above and email all of your previous buyers and let them know whats going on.

Clare

Clare,

Sorry to hear you're going through the same thing! These unscrupulous people need to taught a lesson or two!

Mark

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293055].message }}

Paul Myers

15 years ago

Shezz,

This is why I don't base a lot of my business on markets where a single deranged dipshit blackmailer can do me any damage. The biggest thing you need to do, if you haven't already, is get into more markets, and ones that are not easily overlapped.

That's longer term, though.

I'd wager that the thief lives far enough away from you that a lawsuit would be prohibitively expensive, and they're counting on that.

Your biggest leverage at this point is the issue of copyright.

If this person is disputing the purchase and simultaneously trying to sell the content you developed, you've got real leverage with PayPal. Tell them about that, and point them to the place where it's being offered. That should be all PayPal needs to rule in your favor.

Next, you might try going to the registrar and telling them about the domain name issue. Not sure how they'd handle that, but it's worth the effort.

If PayPal does NOT decide in your favor based on the buyer selling the content, go to the site where she sold it and make it very clear that, having gotten a refund, the seller forfeited rights to the content and is selling stolen material.

Same thing with eBay.

Also, see if you can get a copy of the email she's sending to your other customers. It's likely that eBay has policies against that type of behavior, and if so, they may well shut down her account for it.

Do whatever you need to do to get a copy of that email. I would send the person who wrote you about it a note, something like this:

Ferd,

I understand. It seems that a number of my customers were contacted by someone who is threatening to try and destroy my business if I don't give in to an unusual form of extortion.

Here's the situation: [describe the details].

If you would like a refund, I will certainly give it to you. Please be aware that, on doing so, you no longer have the right to use, sell or display any of the material I created for you. The copyright reverts to me.

I'll make a deal with you. I would like to be able to demonstrate just what this person is doing, to PayPal, eBay and their ISP. (Possibly the police as well, since this is harassment, and illegal just about everywhere.)

If you can send me a copy of the email they sent you, with the full headers (including Received: lines), I'll be happy to give you a refund and allow you to keep and continue to use the material I created for you.

Thanks for your assistance with this,

Sheryl

Pay careful attention to that note. It includes a number of important points. The biggest being that, upon getting a refund, the customer loses the right to use any original material you created that was included in the refunded order.

Also note that it is very polite, not at all defensive, points out a problem (the copyright issue), and then offers a solution. All without any confrontation at all.

If you can get that email, you may well be able to get the person's eBay and PayPal accounts shut down. It's also possible, but less likely, that you can get their ISP account closed for harassment and fraud. Virtually every ISP has terms forbidding such use of their services.

Ask PayPal, as part of the dispute, to look at the person's history of refunds/disputes. That may be enough, by itself, to get them to take action, if there's a big enough pattern.

At the same time, if they're offering the content for sale in an open forum, post to their sale offer, pointing out that the content in question is under dispute, and that the "seller" does not have clear rights to offer it for sale.

Send a note to the owner of the site where the content is being offered. Something like this:

Mr Berfel,

In thread [url-here], So-and-So is offering content for sale to which they do not have clear title. The content was purchased from me, and the purchase is under dispute with PayPal, at the buyer's request. If they win that dispute, the copyright would revert to me, and any member of your site who purchased it would have to get their money back from a serial refunder.

I just thought you would like to know about this potential land mine being placed in your forum.

If you care for the gory details of the situation, you can find them below. Thank you for your time and attention,

Sheryl

[details of the situation here]

If you are certain the owner read that note and the offer isn't removed immediately, you can write that place off as being unsafe to do business through in the future.

Now, unless there's something involved that you haven't mentioned, you have a fair chance of getting this person's PayPal and eBay accounts shut down. The owner of the place she's trying to sell your material in will at least be watching for future problems. And you can resell any product you have to give refunds for.

That said, a warning...

Save everything. Keep backups. People like this often go on virtual stalking and harassment sprees that can last for months, or even years. You want to be able to prove what she's doing if that happens.

These are a few of the white hat ways to deal with it. If I were you, I'd spend some time learning a few of the blackhat ways, too. Don't use them until you must, but learn them. (And no, I won't give you any pointers.)

Also, I wouldn't sell domains to someone you don't know without using an escrow service. Not much you can do once those are transferred. However...

Until the sale is clear and final, you own that content.

If someone asks for and receives a refund, they can't use it any more, without your express permission.

Never lose sight of that. Know your rights, and how to defend them. Don't be afraid to go bare knuckles with people who try to rip you off.

Paul

[ 10 ] Thanks
2 replies

Signature

.
Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293366].message }}

Mark Brock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Shezz,

This is why I don't base a lot of my business on markets where a single deranged dipshit blackmailer can do me any damage. The biggest thing you need to do, if you haven't already, is get into more markets, and ones that are not easily overlapped.

That's longer term, though.

I'd wager that the thief lives far enough away from you that a lawsuit would be prohibitively expensive, and they're counting on that.

Your biggest leverage at this point is the issue of copyright.

If this person is disputing the purchase and simultaneously trying to sell the content you developed, you've got real leverage with PayPal. Tell them about that, and point them to the place where it's being offered. That should be all PayPal needs to rule in your favor.

Next, you might try going to the registrar and telling them about the domain name issue. Not sure how they'd handle that, but it's worth the effort.

If PayPal does NOT decide in your favor based on the buyer selling the content, go to the site where she sold it and make it very clear that, having gotten a refund, the seller forfeited rights to the content and is selling stolen material.

Same thing with eBay.

Also, see if you can get a copy of the email she's sending to your other customers. It's likely that eBay has policies against that type of behavior, and if so, they may well shut down her account for it.

Do whatever you need to do to get a copy of that email. I would send the person who wrote you about it a note, something like this:

Ferd,

I understand. It seems that a number of my customers were contacted by someone who is threatening to try and destroy my business if I don't give in to an unusual form of extortion.

Here's the situation: [describe the details].

If you would like a refund, I will certainly give it to you. Please be aware that, on doing so, you no longer have the right to use, sell or display any of the material I created for you. The copyright reverts to me.

I'll make a deal with you. I would like to be able to demonstrate just what this person is doing, to PayPal, eBay and their ISP. (Possibly the police as well, since this is harassment, and illegal just about everywhere.)

If you can send me a copy of the email they sent you, with the full headers (including Received: lines), I'll be happy to give you a refund and allow you to keep and continue to use the material I created for you.

Thanks for your assistance with this,

Sheryl

Pay careful attention to that note. It includes a number of important points. The biggest being that, upon getting a refund, the customer loses the right to use any original material you created that was included in the refunded order.

Also note that it is very polite, not at all defensive, points out a problem (the copyright issue), and then offers a solution. All without any confrontation at all.

If you can get that email, you may well be able to get the person's eBay and PayPal accounts shut down. It's also possible, but less likely, that you can get their ISP account closed for harassment and fraud. Virtually every ISP has terms forbidding such use of their services.

Ask PayPal, as part of the dispute, to look at the person's history of refunds/disputes. That may be enough, by itself, to get them to take action, if there's a big enough pattern.

At the same time, if they're offering the content for sale in an open forum, post to their sale offer, pointing out that the content in question is under dispute, and that the "seller" does not have clear rights to offer it for sale.

Send a note to the owner of the site where the content is being offered. Something like this:

Mr Berfel,

In thread [url-here], So-and-So is offering content for sale to which they do not have clear title. The content was purchased from me, and the purchase is under dispute with PayPal, at the buyer's request. If they lose that dispute, the copyright would revert to me, and any member of your site who purchased it would have to get their money back from a serial refunder.

I just thought you would like to know about this potential land mine being placed in your forum.

If you care for the gory details of the situation, you can find them below. Thank you for your time and attention,

Sheryl

[details of the situation here]

If you are certain the owner read that note and the offer isn't removed immediately, you can write that place off as being unsafe to do business through in the future.

Now, unless there's something involved that you haven't mentioned, you have a fair chance of getting this person's PayPal and eBay accounts shut down. The owner of the place she's trying to sell your material in will at least be watching for future problems. And you can resell any product you have to give refunds for.

That said, a warning...

Save everything. Keep backups. People like this often go on virtual stalking and harassment sprees that can last for months, or even years. You want to be able to prove what she's doing if that happens.

These are a few of the white hat ways to deal with it. If I were you, I'd spend some time learning a few of the blackhat ways, too. Don't use them until you must, but learn them. (And no, I won't give you any pointers.)

Also, I wouldn't sell domains to someone you don't know without using an escrow service. Not much you can do once those are transferred. However...

Until the sale is clear and final, you own that content.

If someone asks for and receives a refund, they can't use it any more, without your express permission.

Never lose sight of that. Know your rights, and how to defend them. Don't be afraid to go bare knuckles with people who try to rip you off.

Paul

Great advice to a horrible problem!!!

Great detailed emails as well there Paul! Nice work!

Mark

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293373].message }}

Paul Myers 15 years ago

Mark,

Great detailed emails as well there Paul!

I have lots of experience with this stuff.

As soon as the copyright office gets one of their new programs out of beta phase, I'm going to start laying some serious landmines for these people.

Paul
- Thanks
Signature

.
Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293416].message }}

radhika 15 years ago

1. MY BIG QUESTION: How could possibly she knows about your client emails?

2. Post her story on your web site, so your potential buyers will know about it beforehand.

3. Send an email to all your clients about this story.

4. If you are a member of any sites like trustee or BBB.org etc, file a dispute case there too. People like this should be stopped. Hold on to the evidence that she is a serial refunder.

.
- Thanks
Signature
Follow up Autoresponder PRO :: 33% Discount!!
FREE Upgrades! IMPROVED Email Deliverability!!
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293383].message }}

Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Hi Shezz,

I am not a lawyer, but that sure sounds like a legal case for libel. Send a cease and desist letter. They are damaging your business. Also, it may be a good idea to pass along a copy of all her emails to PayPal, so they can get a better idea of her "character".

All the best,
Michael

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

"Ich bin en fuego!"

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293016].message }}

Talltom1 15 years ago

This is a pretty clear cut case of libel. Inform this person that your legal advisors are reviewing this person's past purchases history, and determining whether the content from the previously refunded purchases are still being used by this person. (violation of intellectual property rights)

In addition, for this person to contact your current customers with their poisonous material is blatant libel and interference in a current business relationship which is causing you damages, and for you which you will be filing suit...(a very legitimate claim).

Don't mess around with this one. Stomp the life out of this situation and let her know that you are pursuing legal action until such time as there is an out-of-court settlement. Actually have a lawyer draft that letter and send it for you - generally they'll do it for $25-$50. Put the fear of God in her and force her to actually have to hire a lawyer to defend this, or alternatively pay you a few thousand to make this go away-(for her benefit). Copy Paypal with it. GET AGGRESSIVE!!!!!

Talltom
- Thanks
Signature
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293405].message }}

Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by masterGlen

Michael is right, you should have her emails copied and sent it to paypal so that they would be able to know what she has been doing to you. And maybe you should ask a lawyer about your situation, and maybe put an article to your website that says who the real scammer is. I mean that woman who has been bugging you.

Some people are just happy with making other peoples life miserable.

masterGlen, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's more that a year old!

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711512].message }}

willies

15 years ago

Many people abuse the fact that a marketer offers money-back guarantee and this is really sad. This client sounds to me like somebody who is out to ruin your business.

In any case, if your product was good and your clients were satisfied with your products, you need not worry about losing your clients. However, I agree that you need to email all your other clients and explain things to them.

You will scale through all these. I believe it. Just take to the advice you have received from this forum.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[293763].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Thanks for all your replies, it makes me feel a little better having this support on the forum.

At the moment I don't have a copy of the email she has sent and I am trying to get a hold of a copy. So far the customers that have either asked me for a refund or filed a disputes themselves against me, have been quite nasty and quite obviously believe her claims.

Some of you asked how she got the email addresses of my customers - I wondered that myself and wondered whether she was contacting them via Ebay. However, last night I realised that it could be from a previous email I sent to my customers - I was stupid enough to send an email to them and have all their email addresses in the 'to' section - I know that is extremely stupid and I could kick myself for it now, but I believe this is where she has gotten their email addresses. It is the same customers on this previous email that are filing disputes and asking for refunds.

I have one customer who I did some extra work for and built a good relationship with so I have contacted him and explained the situation and asked if he could forward her email to me, so fingers crossed that he does. Until then, I don't really have a lot of proof that she has done this even though I am 95% certain she has.

Thanks for all your support and I will keep you updated

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294145].message }}

SocalDana 15 years ago

I deal with customer service nightmares day in and day out. One tactic we use, when we lose a dispute with a credit card company, so they get their refund and are in possession of the materials, we send the customer to a collection agency. The one we use goes after the "client" and while we don't really get any money back, since they never pay, they do get an unpaid collection reported to their credit for the next 7 years. May not do anything, but makes us feel good, since they scammed us.

Good luck.. I hate slimy customers...
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294260].message }}

Michael Oksa

15 years ago

Just throwing this out there...

Isn't it only libel if it's false?

In other words, make sure you have a strong case before you pursue it too far.

All the best,
Michael

Thanks

Signature

"Ich bin en fuego!"

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294295].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Thanks Michael - of course I need to be able to get hold of the email she is sending to know exactly what she is claiming. But I am fairly confident that I am not a scammer

I know one claim she made is that websites will only bring profit if they are marketed and marketing websites isn't easy - I clearly state in my Ebay listings that my websites do need to be promoted - I never at any time say that they will just earn you an income with any promotion.

That so far is the only part of her claims that I know of, so I will wait and see if I can get hold of a copy of the email.

Thanks
Sheryl

Thanks

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294342].message }}

Jim Pearson

15 years ago

What your dealing with is not fun.

There have been quite a few good posts here regarding what you need to do in the future in regards to clients asking for refunds(refund the money then never accept them as a client again).

You really have only one choice here. Protect your business. You need to take the high road.

1) Refund the money immediately to end this and correct your problem with paypal.

2) Do not send any of her emails etc.to your clients. They need to see you as a professional who deals with your business concerns and problems in a professional manner.

3) Have your lawyer send her a cease & desist letter stating that you have refunded her the money, and that if she continues pursuing her negative course of action that further legal action will be taken.

4) Put into place a control system to not allow any clients who request a refund to buy from you again.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294674].message }}

Paul Myers 15 years ago

if she continues pursuing her negative course of action that further legal action will be taken.

Ummm... Folks?

Unless this person is in the same part of Oz as Sheryl, that's probably not a viable option, financially or tactically. If she's in the US or some other non-Down-Under land, it's definitely not going to work.

In the words of Robert Ringer, "If you lose in the jungle, you lose."

You have to start thinking jungle. LegalMan has no power when he's starved of his magic green paper diet.

Paul
- Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature

.
Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294688].message }}
- getsmartt 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  In the words of Robert Ringer, "If you lose in the jungle, you lose."
  
  Off topic, but I "love" Robert Ringer, possibly because his was one of the first business books I read, but mainly because he has a away with words.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stÃ¤rker
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294780].message }}

valerieSONORA

15 years ago

She should definitely be on your banned list. If she keeps asking for refunds, quit selling to her. Block her email.

Forward all harrasing emails to paypal. She is definitely a serial refunder, hopefully paypal will see that and favor in your side. Inform paypal that she is a serial refunder who is sending bad emails to your other customers.

I think someone said paypal doesn't refund for digital products? Is this true? If that's the case she won't get a refund anyway.

If you can block her email, do that. Don't read any of her emails, just ignore her and the emails. You know they will be bad and threatening anyway. Sounds like she is very good at harassment and negative things.

I really don't know what else you can do besides keeping paypal informed and ignoring her, banning her, blocking her. If there is a way to find her ISP and block it from your sites, do that. She is one of those ppl nobody wants to do business with.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

siggy taking a break...

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294764].message }}

aceriker 15 years ago

Originally Posted by annoyedgirl

I think someone said paypal doesn't refund for digital products? Is this true? If that's the case she won't get a refund anyway.

Paypal won't refund transactions for digital products. However, if they paid with a credit card 9/10 times they'll win if they do a charge back.

We're having a nightmare time in 2Checkout with people charging back their credit cards 4 months after their payment!
- Thanks
Signature

Interested to develop booking and rental website then choose booking software , popular in developing clone script like groupon and airbnb clone
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295601].message }}

DynamicMentalFitness

15 years ago

Look like it's time for a defamation lawsuit.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294803].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Does anyone know if an email sent through a 'contact form' on a website can be traced?

I have just received another email, this time coming through a contact form on one of my sites. They have faked the email address that they entered into the form. I don't know if its from her or not, I believe she has teamed up with another buyer than she has contacted.

This email is actually threatening bodily harm - well, they told me that I had better hire myself a bodyguard. But I don't know who it has been sent by.

Thanks
4 replies

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294826].message }}

PRandContent

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

Does anyone know if an email sent through a 'contact form' on a website can be traced?

I have just received another email, this time coming through a contact form on one of my sites. They have faked the email address that they entered into the form. I don't know if its from her or not, I believe she has teamed up with another buyer than she has contacted.

This email is actually threatening bodily harm - well, they told me that I had better hire myself a bodyguard. But I don't know who it has been sent by.

Did you use a WP plugin for the contact form? It could be possible for you to trace the I.P. The csForm plugin that I use for my websites can automatically trace the I.P. of the message sender.

Thanks

Signature

I will post your article on this blog for just $20

Quality Articles/Content/Rewrites/Blogs/Article Packs (fee starts at $0.015 per word)

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294935].message }}

JustVisiting 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

This email is actually threatening bodily harm - well, they told me that I had better hire myself a bodyguard. But I don't know who it has been sent by.

Unfortunately its impossible to 'reason' with 'unreasonable' people.

There are a number of ways that spring to mind to deal with this 'person', but I think the best legal way is to pay a visit to your local police station with the evidence.
- Thanks
Signature
"...If at first you don't succeed; call it Version 1.0"
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295132].message }}

Mark Brock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Mark,I have lots of experience with this stuff.

That's not necessarily a good thing is it? Sorry to hear you've had to deal with issues like this Paul but great advice none-the-less.

I hope I never have to deal with issues like this in the future but if I do I know I'll be asking for your advice!

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

I wouldn't do that, since it might get you in legal trouble for disclosing her info, plus it may turn off a lot of people who wonder why you are discussing that in public.

Some might believe her and think you are in the wrong and trying to smear her.

They might decide not to buy anything from you in fear that if something goes wrong, their name may get spread around.

It might make an interesting blog post or article if you leave out any personal details, but I wouldn't publish her name or other info.

She should do publicity if she is able to get her message to "the entire Internet."

I didn't even consider this when I advised Shezz otherwise. You're absolutely right though Chris!

Originally Posted by Shezz

Does anyone know if an email sent through a 'contact form' on a website can be traced?

I have just received another email, this time coming through a contact form on one of my sites. They have faked the email address that they entered into the form. I don't know if its from her or not, I believe she has teamed up with another buyer than she has contacted.

This email is actually threatening bodily harm - well, they told me that I had better hire myself a bodyguard. But I don't know who it has been sent by.

When I woke up this morning I was genuinely upset to see this post. The fact that there are people out there that can quite happily threaten someone in such a way is just a horrible thought, and the sad truth of the world we live in.

I sincerely hope you get this issue sorted out quickly, and in your favour as well Shezz.

May I just add now that it has been established that this person is in Australia would a law suit be a possibility you'd consider?

Good luck with your efforts in this matter!

Mark

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295687].message }}

Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Sheryl Polomka

Does anyone know if an email sent through a 'contact form' on a website can be traced?

I have just received another email, this time coming through a contact form on one of my sites. They have faked the email address that they entered into the form. I don't know if its from her or not, I believe she has teamed up with another buyer than she has contacted.

This email is actually threatening bodily harm - well, they told me that I had better hire myself a bodyguard. But I don't know who it has been sent by.

Send a copy of the email to your webhost, so they can trace the IP of who used your contact form at the time it was sent. Then send all info to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

Do this now!

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711587].message }}

GeorgR.

15 years ago

i delete such people from my DLG list, deny them access (for my AH or ASQ), ban their IP and email....after i sent them their refunds.

A few years ago i might have bothered with lengthy emails...but i stopped arguing with those "black sheep" sicne its pointless. You can spot a serial refunder right away, usually.

Thanks

Signature

*** Affiliate Site Quick --> The Fastest & Easiest Way to Make Affiliate Sites!<--
-> VISIT www.1UP-SEO.com *** <- Internet Marketing, SEO Tips, Reviews & More!! ***
*** HIGH QUALITY CONTENT CREATION +++ Manual Article Spinning (Thread Here) ***
Content Creation, Blogging, Articles, Converting Sales Copy, Reviews, Ebooks, Rewrites

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294958].message }}

valerieSONORA

15 years ago

Forward that bodily harm email to paypal too. Too bad internet laws haven't kept up with the internet. If she's on in Australia there's probably nothing you can do. Is she in Australia? Then maybe you could report her for harassment? She sounds like a real bully.

Thanks

Signature

siggy taking a break...

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294960].message }}

GeorgR.

15 years ago

i have a VERY nice story about "that one lady" i once bought a Hugo Boss parfume from her on ebay.

She took about 2 months (!) to deliver the ordered product, i emailed her multiple times about my payment details, ask where the shipment is. She just didn't grasp the fact that my PayPal address was different from my email address or something - or she didnt understand how paypal worked.

HOWEVER - after i finally, finally got the ordered item i put a comment on ebay where i complained about "incompetency" and that it is a total no go having to wait MONTHS for a simple ebay order.

The lady then started threatening me how she will sue me because i damage her reputation and how her business went down after my rather negative ebay comment.

She, in return, posted a total nonsense "accusing" comment on my ebay profile - which is ironic since i ordered the product, paid IMMEDIATELY per PayPal...and then i had to wait 2 months for the item to get to me because of HER incompetency.....and in return i got accused of "has never paid" and other nonsense even after sending her a dozen emails with my payment detail proof

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

*** Affiliate Site Quick --> The Fastest & Easiest Way to Make Affiliate Sites!<--
-> VISIT www.1UP-SEO.com *** <- Internet Marketing, SEO Tips, Reviews & More!! ***
*** HIGH QUALITY CONTENT CREATION +++ Manual Article Spinning (Thread Here) ***
Content Creation, Blogging, Articles, Converting Sales Copy, Reviews, Ebooks, Rewrites

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294981].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Did you use a WP plugin for the contact form? It could be possible for you to trace the I.P. The csForm plugin that I use for my websites can automatically trace the I.P. of the message sender.

No, it is a form created through thesitewizard.com I have sent them an email asking them, they don't have a phone number to call that I can see.

Yes she is in Australia, thankfully over the other side.

Some people I know are just not worth the effort and stress involved - I hate to just let things go without a fight though, especially when they are going to such lengths to destroy my reputation.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[294991].message }}

Steven Wagenheim

15 years ago

Shezz, we've known each other a long time. May I make a suggestion, and
I am saying this as a friend.

You need to bite the bullet and get yourself a mentor to make sure your
business planning is solid and your X's an O's are in order. You do too many
things that are haphazard and downright dangerous.

No, I'm not offering my services because there is too much history between
us. Please find somebody here at this forum who you trust and enter a
mentoring program with them on business management.

Again, I am saying this as a friend and it is said in no way to be mean.

Take this bit of advice for what it means to you.

And good luck with getting this problem solved.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

My Soundcloud Music Channel

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295006].message }}

jonb

15 years ago

OK, it's time to move on from this one person who's giving you grief and get on to what's really important: rescuing your customer base.

This is why blogging, twittering and putting out a solid e-zine are so important -- if you build trust and a personal relationship with your customers, they'll laugh off any allegations they may hear about you, because they know and trust you. So it's time to start communicating with your people in a positive way.

Put yourself -- as a human being - out there. Tell something interesting or funny about yourself, reach out to help people, put up some videos of you that give information and show a sense of humor.

And get testimonials from loyal customers and put 'em up everywhere.

My best advice -- read Tribes by Seth Godin. then go build yourself a tribe that will have your back when the going gets rough.

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

Signature

.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295030].message }}

angela99

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jonb

OK, it's time to move on from this one person who's giving you grief and get on to what's really important: rescuing your customer base.

This is why blogging, twittering and putting out a solid e-zine are so important -- if you build trust and a personal relationship with your customers, they'll laugh off any allegations they may hear about you, because they know and trust you. So it's time to start communicating with your people in a positive way.

Put yourself -- as a human being - out there. Tell something interesting or funny about yourself, reach out to help people, put up some videos of you that give information and show a sense of humor.

And get testimonials from loyal customers and put 'em up everywhere.

My best advice -- read Tribes by Seth Godin. then go build yourself a tribe that will have your back when the going gets rough.

Superb advice from jonb.

You need people to recognize your name online when you're dong business. It engenders trust, and when push comes to shove, if they know you have a long reach online (blog etc) they're less likely to make threats because they know you have the potential to retaliate.

Buying online is new to many people. With all the stories of Internet scams, they're wary, and so they should be.

Build your name: blog, tweet, become a real person, rather than an anonymous entity. This makes people more comfortable dealing with you.

Of course you're still get the occasional person who gives you grief. In that case, refund and move on. Life's too short. Build your business -- let the occasional dodo fade into the distance. The good people outnumber the loonies by a HUGE margin. :-)

Cheers

Angela

Thanks

Signature

Everyone's a writer today. Get personal guidance from Angela.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295227].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Steven, I have been running a good, solid business for the last 6 months. I don't know why you think I need a mentor.

haphazard and downright dangerous - I have no idea what you mean by that!

Thanks

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295029].message }}

cclegg06

15 years ago

I have to agree with the legal approach. Time to get your/a lawyer involved and for you to get back to running your business.

Hang in there. Let us know how it turns out.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295090].message }}

tommyp

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

Oh my goodness, this is crazy!

I don't know what to do, I have a customer who purchased 2 websites from me. This customer has purchased other things from me in the past and always asks for refunds once she has the product. I have given her refunds in the past.

Make note of her and block her from buying from you if possible. List her name on your sites as not being allowed to buy from you.

Keep track of names, variations, phone numbers, addresses, emails and whatever else you've got.

She sounds like she takes advantage of you because she detects weakness since you have repeatedly given in.

This time though - now that she has full ownership of the websites - she filed a dispute against me through paypal. Without even asking for a refund first. Due to the fact that I think she is a serial refunder and the fact that she filed a dispute instead of asking me for a refund first, I didn't give it to her, it is still in dispute status.

Show Paypal that she is a serial refunder. Go through your history and make note of it all. When Paypal sees that they are likely to be on your side.

Yesterday, she sent me threatening emails saying that if I don't refund her she will communicate to the entire internet that I am a scammer.

I've dealt with people like that, too. What I've told them is that my voice is louder, that I'm crazy and I will expose them for being the scammer they are. Threaten to report to the Online Marketers Association and that her name will be blacklisted and if her behavior continues member funds from members with deep pockets will be pooled to follow her to the moon if necessary and bring her to the law. I've tried this and these people seem to vanish.

Now, over the last few days I am having quite a few customers either asking for refunds or filing disputes against me and they are very cold in their attitude. I thought it was rather strange as I have never had customers ask for refunds on my websites before.

Could be a fluke, the moon, the times or she could be telling her friends what a "sucker" you are or lying and saying you scammed her and to "watch out". She can get in trouble for that, too.

I just received an email from one of my customers - not too nice an email - but in it he stated that he had received 'an interesting email regarding the websites that I sell' then went on to say that he had been scammed.

Make those stupid idiots explain how they've been scammed. They need to tell you. I feel that the occasional dumbass is not worth dealing with and would just refund them but if this is going to be a problem I would do something about it.

I would also say "If the email you got was from a so and so who is an online serial refunder scammer that you will not be bullied. How and to what extent they claim to have been "scammed" needs to be shown and that is they are knowingly committing fraud that you will not stand for it and pursue them to the fullest extent of the law"

So I have no doubt that this woman is emailing all of my customers and telling them that I am a scammer.

Yea, the ones she knows of anyway.

I have reported her to Ebay - but knowing their customer service I'm not going to rely on that solving the problem. I don't know what else to do.

Deal with Paypal if you can. I don't have experience selling in ebay but if the payment processor was Paypal it shouldn't be any different from if you just used a Paypal button on your sites outside of ebay where is there is a dispute you would deal with Paypal.

That bitch is most likely bluffing.

Unless she is really stupid she knows that getting Paypal involved will only expose her. Usually Paypal is on the seller's side. If she is wrong she will likely lose.

She is scaring you to get her money back.

If you just want to refund her and block her in the future without a fight then find out how you can block her, otherwise fight her and don't let her get away with it.

If this keeps up tell me who the piece of shit is and I'll scare her to death. Get many people to email her and tell her that if she doesn't cease and desist there is an army of angry sellers who have been scammed by those like her and have joined their resources to prusue these people to the fullest extent possible.

And they say not to use an alias online. Aliases can be used for shady stuff but if crap like this isn't reason to use an alias I don't know what is then.

It's tough. A merchant still owes me about $3000 but there are other ways. Lukcy for him he's in another country.

If this jackass is in your country it's easier to pursue her legally and also if she has harassed you in other ways that are unlawful you can tell the authorities where you are and it won't look good on her to be on record as there being evidence of threats.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295154].message }}

Ben_Curtis

15 years ago

Wow, this thread has been an education! But, if we can do anything to help watch your back, let us know, and we can blog about it for you.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295197].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Angela, I have blogs, products and websites. Going through this experience makes me wonder whether it is worth building your name - then they have more ways to knock you down.

These people have gone to other sites of mine, I know this as the last email came from one of my sites contact form - this is a site that I did not publicise to them but they found it. They have also attempted to leave a bad comment on one of my blogs. So having a name only gives them more to ruin.

Thanks

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295454].message }}

derekwong28

15 years ago

Shez, I saw in another thread that you are thinking of getting advice from a defamation lawyer. I would strongly advise you against it; it is just not worth your while. If the customer is based overseas, the chances of you getting anywhere is next to zero. Also, rather than scaring her off, you may inflame her to take further action against you.

Besides pouring money down the drain, you would also be spending lots of time and energy on it. Eventually, you will be completely obsessed and consumed by it and it will ruin your business altogether.

Believe me, time and money is better spent elsewhere than dealing with these nutcases!

-Derek

Thanks

Signature

Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295630].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

I'm really not sure Mark whether to consider a law suit or not. My head is spinning a bit now with all the advice - some saying to take legal action others strongly advising against it.

I would hate to end up spending a fortune on legal fees, particularly if somehow she managed to win. I don't know how, but you just never know.

I have a friend online who suggests that I close all of my websites and blogs and clear everything away that is linked to me and start over under a pen name. Although I know her intentions are good, I'm not sure that I want to do this. I have worked hard to get to where I am and why should I give it all up because of one person. Having said that, perhaps it would be easier to do that.

I have spent most of today quite upset, maybe its easier just to clear out, ignore it and not deal with it.

I don't know.

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295694].message }}

Mark Brock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

I'm really not sure Mark whether to consider a law suit or not. My head is spinning a bit now with all the advice - some saying to take legal action others strongly advising against it.

I would hate to end up spending a fortune on legal fees, particularly if somehow she managed to win. I don't know how, but you just never know.

I have a friend online who suggests that I close all of my websites and blogs and clear everything away that is linked to me and start over under a pen name. Although I know her intentions are good, I'm not sure that I want to do this. I have worked hard to get to where I am and why should I give it all up because of one person. Having said that, perhaps it would be easier to do that.

I have spent most of today quite upset, maybe its easier just to clear out, ignore it and not deal with it.

I don't know.

I'd think very carefully about using a pen name. I know it would be as a way for you to protect yourself against future issues such as this but if someone were to discover you weren't using your real name it may lead to questions as to why you've done this.

It may lead to people assuming you're scamming them even though you aren't.

My advice for the rest of today is to do something totally unrelated to business that you take great pleasure from. This might help you put all of this to the back of your mind for today at least!

Take care,

Mark

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295708].message }}

Thomas 15 years ago

Sheryl,

Don't close down your web activities but don't discuss what's happening with anyone else, including continuing this thread, and don't engage in any further direct communication with her.

You need to look at this from an Australian perspective, since that's where you both live. What happens, or applies, or is a good/bad idea in other countries is irrelevant.

You have 2 issues to deal with:

1. The threat of physical harm against you.

Fortunately, she's unlikely to travel across the country to harm you but, the fact that she went to the trouble of locating an unrelated website and implied a need to protect yourself is reason enough to contact your local police station in Morphett Vale (Note: I know that's your local police station because your address is unprotected on your domain records. I believe you can add private registration via your godaddy.com account for about U.S.$10 a year. It's pricey per domain but worth it.)

Tell them the entire story (everything) and explain that, as a woman with a young family, you find her behaviour intimidating. Ask about the possibility of a violence restraining order (which, despite what many people think, isn't just for family disputes). It doesn't matter that she lives in another State. Such orders can be made to apply in any State.

If the police agree, and you decide to take this path, the order, as well as preventing her from contacting (directly or indirectly) or coming anywhere near you or your family, can, crucially, prevent her from publishing materials about you or communicating with other people about you by any means, including the Internet.

It won't be a criminal charge against her (unless she breaches it) and the police can apply to the Courts for you - you won't have to do it yourself.

Even if you don't want to have an order taken out against her, report it to your local police anyway.

(FYI: Using "national infrastructure" in Australia to make a threat of harm is a criminal offense punishable by between 7 and 10 years in prison... even if nothing is actually carried out: The threat itself IS the crime. Also, if she makes a second threat, it can also be viewed as stalking which, in South Australia, would mean 3 to 5 years, if found guilty.)

Your other issue is:

2. The damage being done to your reputation.

The spate of refund demands from other customers makes the damage being done to your reputation very obvious. This is something Australian defamation laws focus very heavily on, sometimes even more so than whether something is true or not.

Defamation is a civil offence but can become criminal if it can be shown that the offender knew what they published was false AND intended to cause harm.

Taking someone to Court for this in Australia is an extremely expensive and time-consuming course of action. However, there are anti-defamation legal services that operate on an all-Australia basis that will give an initial consultation for free and, if they think you have a strong case, will accept you as a client on a conditional fee basis (i.e. no win, no fee).

Hope this helps you somewhat.

Regards,
Tommy.
- Thanks
- 1 reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[296517].message }}
- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Sheryl,
  
  If she's in Oz, get the police involved.
  
  If she used one of your web sites to send the threat, check your web logs to find the IP address. If you don't know how, download those logs and preserve them. Immediately. Don't let them cycle out and get destroyed.
  
  Once you have the IP address, contact her ISP and ask them to preserve the logs for the day in question, telling them exactly what you need and that there may be legal action (including possible criminal action) that requires them.
  
  When you report the threat to the police, ask them to contact her ISP with the same request to preserve their user logs for that day.
  
  I don't know if the police there are going to consider the recommendation that you hire a bodyguard as a threat. Some police departments are sane about such things and some aren't.
  
  Ask the police for further advice.
  
  Oh... given Australia's rather nasty laws about libel, you may want to consider filing suit. Or at least asking an attorney about it. Things change when they're in the same country.
  
  Paul
  
  [ 1 ] Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  .
  Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[296586].message }}

Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

Thanks Mark

Its evening here and I'm logging off and going to bed. I will take your advice for tomorrow though I think and do something cool

Thanks
2 replies

Signature

~~ TOP PETZ ~~

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295713].message }}

Mark Brock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shezz

Thanks Mark

Its evening here and I'm logging off and going to bed. I will take your advice for tomorrow though I think and do something cool

Do enjoy tomorrow and have a good night's sleep!
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[295718].message }}
Thomas 15 years ago

Anyone else want me to repeat that?
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711518].message }}

grumpyb

15 years ago

I was stupid enough to send an email to them and have all their email addresses in the 'to' section - I know that is extremely stupid and I could kick myself for it now, but I believe this is where she has gotten their email addresses. It is the same customers on this previous email that are filing disputes and asking for refunds.

This is more than stupid as most of your customers would resent having their email addresses disclosed to other people.

If you think about it your serial charge backer oly needs to click the wrong button in reply to give everyone on the list a copy.

Taking Legal action is the absolute last resort and will only cost large sums of money cause you more worry and stress and detract you from running your business.

In EBay you can block any one from buying your products and you should have done that after the first chargeback.

Report the threats to EBay trust and safety and to Paypal.
Show Paypal that this person has done 2 chargebacks from you already as they will have a record of this.

None of us here can have a proper informed opinion on this dispute as we only see one side of it. We cant see your EBay Listings to see what you are offering or promising a potential buyer.

If someone had already done 2 chargebacks on prior purchases and then bought another there is no way i would deliver the goods !! I would simply refund the money and cancel the sale.

In reading all of this I am not sure that we are getting the whole story here

BUT I WOULD STRONGLY RECCOMEND THAT YOU DO NOT START A LEGAL CASE AS IN MY EXPERINCE IT IS TOTALLY COUNTER PRODUCTIVE.

Good Luck

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

https://baby-playpen.com.au/ http://australian-children.com/ http://sydney-car-owner.com/ https://my-dad-jokes.com/l

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710464].message }}

Thomas 15 years ago

Originally Posted by grumpyb

I was stupid ... Good Luck

Grumpyb, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's more that a year old!
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[710578].message }}

dndoseller

15 years ago

I say just pay the lady, block her and move on.

The read "the secret", man this is a case of law of attraction if I ever saw one.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

DanoSongs.com - Royalty Free Music for Marketing Videos

No sign up required to try my music in your video.

Just click to listen and download. No cost to try, only pay when you publish.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711045].message }}

Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dndoseller

I say just pay the lady, block her and move on.

The read "the secret", man this is a case of law of attraction if I ever saw one.

dndoseller, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's more that a year old!

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711515].message }}

stevenh512

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas

dndoseller, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's more that a year old!

Thomas, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's nowhere near a year old (a little over 4 months by my math).. lol

Sorry, had to throw that in there

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

This signature intentionally left blank.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711557].message }}

Thomas

15 years ago

Originally Posted by stevenh512

Thomas, you might want to check the dates on this thread... it's nowhere near a year old (a little over 4 months by my math).. lol

Sorry, had to throw that in there

Ahhh! Damn Yankee dates!

(12-02-2008 is the 12th February 2008; 02-12 is the 2nd of December!)

Okay...

This thread is over 4 months old! Anyone else want me to repeat that!?

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711582].message }}

derekwong28

15 years ago

Amen....................

Thanks

Signature

Do not get between a wombat and a chocolate biscuit; you will regret it dearly!

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[711733].message }}

tomsuccess

Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712112].message }}

Barbara Eyre 15 years ago

Dang folks, please pay attention to dates on these threads! Learn to READ.

Anyways - just curious what the current status of this situation is ... hope things worked out for the best for Sheryl!
- Thanks
Signature
Phoenix Rising Web Services | Fibromyalgia Information
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[712138].message }}

What do you do when a customer goes on a rampage against you?

Trending Topics

Some interesting stats about brand comms

Fixing a massive traffic drop after rebranding

Meta AI now has Google Search results

Looking at the average screen time and socmed usage

What's the Best IM-Related Skill to Learn Today That Can Help in the Future?