Is Clickbank's Refund Policy A Joke?

72 replies
Hey Warriors,

I've been selling one of my products on Clickbank for several years now. For the first time ever, I had a customer do a charge back a month after the 60 day Clickbank refund policy expired.

I get an email from Clickbank that tells me this:

"A chargeback occurs when the cardholder goes directly to his or her bank to
dispute a charge. This results in the reversal of the charge (just like a
refund). In addition, a chargeback penalty has also been debited from your
account. For more information on chargebacks, see the "revoked sales" section on
the following page: XXXXX.

Regrettably, the chargeback penalty is not reversible even if the customer asks his or her bank to cancel the dispute or repurchases the product."



So I've been wacked an additional fee for the chargeback that happens AFTER the money-back guarantee period is over.

Worse, I'm told it's not subject to appeal or reversible even if the customer cancels the dispute with their bank!

My email address for the product is in the product emails they get... in the download area... heck, it's in the product itself. So it's not like they couldn't have contacted me for a refund if they were unhappy with the product.

How is this not complete theft of my product that is being supported by Clickbank's policies? What's the point of requiring merchants to have a 60 day refund policy if Clickbank isn't going to frickin' ENFORCE it?

Has anyone else been ripped off by this hideously bad Clickbank policy?

Mike
#clickbank #joke #policy #refund
  • Profile picture of the author RaptorGabe
    I've heard a few horror stories but not really much we can do. Some people just like to "have the power" I guess. Just roll with it and know you are making WAAYYYYY MORE MONEY THEN THE MISERABLE *Edited by the WF Committee for Good Taste*. Clickbank is more concerned about making the customer happy so they will trust CB and buy more. Makes sense, but doesn't mean we have to like it
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    • Profile picture of the author ss442
      Clickbank, in effort to maintain a good relationship with Visa, Mastercard, and AMEX are contracted and obligated to serve those companies and their cardholders.

      If they lost the use of Visa or Mastercard, their business and your business would fold up faster than than a Chinese umbrella in a Texas twister. They probably erred on the side of caution. We know what happened to Ebay and their digital department when they clipped it, and their complaints from Visa and Mastercard was one of the reasons.

      I used to sell Visa and Mastercard equipment and I am familiar with their policies. They are bent toward the consumer and when it comes to digital unseen products I am sure that is a reason why.

      Having said that, they probably went directly through their credit card company because they knew 60 day warranty was over.

      We need to understand, most products and services have at least a one year warranty. Some internet marketers offer one year warranties but not many. I know this is partly due to perishable internet products but I think information products should have a longer warranty.

      Some marketers are sending a CD for added value for that very reason.

      I know it always is a disappointment when someone asks for a refund. Several times over the past couple months I've watched my Clickbank numbers fall due to refunds but I understand it because I've asked for refunds for various reasons.

      Best regards,
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      Ed Sunderland

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      • Profile picture of the author GlobalTrader
        Clickbank cannot tell the major credit cards how things are going to operate, the major ccard companies tell clickbank and all other merchants this is how it will be, whether you like it or not.

        I had several chargebacks for physical products years ago and only successfully won about 1 out of aout 6 after faxing 10 pages from the website and receipts from the USPS delivery confirmation, etc..

        The Ccard companies have merchants by the u no whats and CB really does not have a say in the matter.
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        • Profile picture of the author FredJones
          Yes this happens. This has happened to me for one of the products that I was selling as an affiliate at that time - happened back way in 2009 if I remember correctly. In fact, the ebook that had got charged back was interestingly also a famous one - The Magic of Making Up (I suppose practically all of us know about it and its author). The chargeback happened after those 56 days, and I was shocked but soon realized what had happened and know very well that this could happen to me and to anyone else any day.
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          • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
            Originally Posted by FredJones View Post

            Yes this happens. This has happened to me for one of the products that I was selling as an affiliate at that time - happened back way in 2009 if I remember correctly. In fact, the ebook that had got charged back was interestingly also a famous one - The Magic of Making Up (I suppose practically all of us know about it and its author). The chargeback happened after those 56 days, and I was shocked but soon realized what had happened and know very well that this could happen to me and to anyone else any day.
            Maybe they didn't make up with their partner and were so sad that they needed to do a chargeback to cheer themselves up.

            Chargebacks are tough. It basically means that someone called their credit card company and claims that they didn't order something, it wasn't them who ordered it, or the product was never delivered as promised, or in the case of all the re-bills saying that they didn't authorize a re-bill. To be honest, there are quite a few people who are committing fraud when it comes to chargebacks.

            James
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        • Profile picture of the author scrofford
          Originally Posted by GlobalTrader View Post

          Clickbank cannot tell the major credit cards how things are going to operate, the major ccard companies tell clickbank and all other merchants this is how it will be, whether you like it or not.

          I had several chargebacks for physical products years ago and only successfully won about 1 out of aout 6 after faxing 10 pages from the website and receipts from the USPS delivery confirmation, etc..

          The Ccard companies have merchants by the u no whats and CB really does not have a say in the matter.
          I agree, but Clickbank then needs to not say its a 60 day refund policy. They should just go ahead and tell everyone to just go ahead and refund anytime they flippin want and not to worry about it because there is no time limit.

          I think if CB is going to say it's a 60 day limit, they damn well need to make sure that is honored, even if they need to do a little extra work with the credit card companies to work that out. If they can't do it, then don't tell the vendor and the customer there is a 60 day money back guarantee. They need to tell them there is a " whenever they want to refund at anytime" guarantee.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
            How much was the ClickBank charge back fee? I need to go back and read the terms more closely. I didn't realize there was a charge back fee.

            For all the crap PayPal gets they fight unwarranted charge backs. I have e-books I sell with a PayPal button.

            I offer 30 day money back guarantee which is PayPal's max allowed. I had a customer do a charge back well after the 30 days.

            PayPal emailed telling me they were disputing it with the customer's bank and I didn't have to do anything else. PayPal won the dispute. No refund allowed.

            The ironic part is if the moron would have emailed me directly I would have refunded his $14.95 vs deal with the hassle but he went straight to his bank with the charge back attempt. Probably since he knew he was in violation of the 30-day money back guaranteed period.
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            • Profile picture of the author webalytics
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

              How much was the ClickBank charge back fee? I need to go back and read the terms more closely. I didn't realize there was a charge back fee.

              For all the crap PayPal gets they fight unwarranted charge backs. I have e-books I sell with a PayPal button.

              I offer 30 day money back guarantee which is PayPal's max allowed. I had someone do a charge back well after the 30 days. PayPal emailed told me they were disputing it with the customer's bank and I didn't have to anything else. PayPal won the dispute. No refund allowed.

              The ironic part is if the moron would have emailed me directly I would have refunded his $14.95 vs deal with the hassle but he went straight to his back with the charge back attempt. Probably since he knew he was in violation of the 30-day money back guaranteed period.
              I've had the same positive experience with PayPal fighting a chargeback on our behalf of us. They even gave us our money back while they fought the chargeback. I guess it was because they felt we had a good case...which we did. ;-)
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              • Profile picture of the author Platinum Matt
                You just have to accept it as part of running such an awesome business.

                5-10% of your sales are going to get refunded and a smaller percentage of that total are going to chargeback.

                Don't cry about it. Don't worry about it. Accept it. Move on.
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                • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
                  Originally Posted by Platinum Matt View Post

                  You just have to accept it as part of running such an awesome business.

                  5-10% of your sales are going to get refunded and a smaller percentage of that total are going to chargeback.

                  Don't cry about it. Don't worry about it. Accept it. Move on.
                  You need to work on your refund rate brother.

                  I don't know if it is because I don't use ClickBank or what, but my refund rate is less than .5%

                  Yes it is less that half a percent.

                  Shannon
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
              Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

              How much was the ClickBank charge back fee? I need to go back and read the terms more closely. I didn't realize there was a charge back fee.
              Yeah, I didn't know there was a charge back fee either.

              Here's the small print in Clickbank's Accounting Policy:

              "A purchase is revoked if the customer's bank later claims the purchase was unfunded, unauthorized or fraudulent. Revoked sales cost ClickBank money and harm our reputation as a reliable Product retailer. In these instances, we charge the Vendor $18 per revoked or charged back sale. ClickBank reserves the right to charge increased fees per credit card chargeback, up to $100, if a publisher's products generate in excess of 1% chargebacks in any 90-day period."


              So I got wacked an $18 fee on a $37 non-IM info-product. They filed the chargeback within days of the 90 day period being over and the former customer has not answered of my emails about why they did the chargeback.

              I'm seriously considering switching my few Clickbank products off of their service and advising my lists and my clients to avoid Clickbank because of this fine-print hokey policy.

              I've dealt with other merchant account providers and even PayPal... any time I've ever had an issue as a merchant on a wrongly disputed charge, I've won the dispute. Every. Single. Time.

              Clickbank... well, I think they forget who's paying their damn bills. It's the merchants who USE them to process their orders.

              If PayPal were to ever add an affilate tracking system to their services, then I think marketers would leave Clickbank en masse.

              My 3 cents,

              Mike
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              • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                Yeah, I didn't know there was a charge back fee either.

                Here's the small print in Clickbank's Accounting Policy:

                "A purchase is revoked if the customer's bank later claims the purchase was unfunded, unauthorized or fraudulent. Revoked sales cost ClickBank money and harm our reputation as a reliable Product retailer. In these instances, we charge the Vendor $18 per revoked or charged back sale. ClickBank reserves the right to charge increased fees per credit card chargeback, up to $100, if a publisher's products generate in excess of 1% chargebacks in any 90-day period."


                So I got wacked an $18 fee on a $37 non-IM info-product. They filed the chargeback within days of the 90 day period being over and the former customer has not answered of my emails about why they did the chargeback.

                I'm seriously considering switching my few Clickbank products off of their service and advising my lists and my clients to avoid Clickbank because of this fine-print hokey policy.

                I've dealt with other merchant account providers and even PayPal... any time I've ever had an issue as a merchant on a wrongly disputed charge, I've won the dispute. Every. Single. Time.

                Clickbank... well, I think they forget who's paying their damn bills. It's the merchants who USE them to process their orders.

                If PayPal were to ever add an affilate tracking system to their services, then I think marketers would leave Clickbank en masse.

                My 3 cents,

                Mike
                Mike, the grass is very rarely greener, it only lasts until / if you hit another anger invoking event. Every company does something to severely p*ss you off sooner or later. It's very easy to allow anger to cloud your better judgement, I've been there and lost a £1m year business in which my lack of better judgement was a contributing factor to it falling apart.

                Things like this will always happen in business. Weigh up the real cost and the probability is your anger is far outweighing the financial cost of this problem. Just consider it a small overhead and learn to forget it. You will be very unlikely to find any merchant where this is not the norm.

                Paypal will do exactly the same thing with a credit card chargeback, it is beyond their control. Every vendor, affiliate and middleman is at the mercy of CC companies. We have to learn to live with it. The only thing Paypal might not do is charge you for the privilege of a chargeback. Paypal is a necessary evil. I'd be amazed if they were even a fraction as good as Clickbank in the long term.
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          • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
            Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

            I agree, but Clickbank then needs to not say its a 60 day refund policy. They should just go ahead and tell everyone to just go ahead and refund anytime they flippin want and not to worry about it because there is no time limit.

            I think if CB is going to say it's a 60 day limit, they damn well need to make sure that is honored, even if they need to do a little extra work with the credit card companies to work that out. If they can't do it, then don't tell the vendor and the customer there is a 60 day money back guarantee. They need to tell them there is a " whenever they want to refund at anytime" guarantee.
            Clickbank didn't give the refund. The 60-day refund period is the period where Clickbank will honor a refund request.

            Again - why should they 'do a little extra work' when the cost is more than the profit involved?

            BTW, most issuing banks/financial institutions limit chargeback requests by cardholders to 60 days from the receipt of the statement that the amount charge appears. So in reality, somewhere around 90 days is the time limit for disputing a charge.
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            • Profile picture of the author GlobalTrader
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              BTW, most issuing banks/financial institutions limit chargeback requests by cardholders to 60 days from the receipt of the statement that the amount charge appears. So in reality, somewhere around 90 days is the time limit for disputing a charge.
              The 90 day time limit might be in effect now but at some point in the past 10 years I had a chargeback come in 6 months after the purchase.

              I was able to get the customer to reverse it however because their accounting department was just getting around to posting their bills/invoices and they did not remember our company name or the charge and instead of contacting us they simply filed a chargeback.

              As soon as I contacted them, reminded them of what they had purchased from us, they contacted their ccard company and reveresed the chargeback.
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            • Profile picture of the author scrofford
              Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

              Clickbank didn't give the refund. The 60-day refund period is the period where Clickbank will honor a refund request.

              Again - why should they 'do a little extra work' when the cost is more than the profit involved?

              BTW, most issuing banks/financial institutions limit chargeback requests by cardholders to 60 days from the receipt of the statement that the amount charge appears. So in reality, somewhere around 90 days is the time limit for disputing a charge.
              Clickbank DOES give the refund. The reason I say that is that if someone comes to them wanting a refund from a product they bought through Clickbank, then Clickbank gets the ball rolling. I know the card companies actually give the refund.

              My point is that CB SHOULD NOT be saying someone only has 60 days to refund and tell the vendors that also and then turn around and allow refund after that point. They should be in sync with the card companies they work with.

              In other words, CB should be crystal clear on how it all works and live up to that standard.
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              • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
                Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

                Clickbank DOES give the refund. The reason I say that is that if someone comes to them wanting a refund from a product they bought through Clickbank, then Clickbank gets the ball rolling. I know the card companies actually give the refund.

                My point is that CB SHOULD NOT be saying someone only has 60 days to refund and tell the vendors that also and then turn around and allow refund after that point. They should be in sync with the card companies they work with.

                In other words, CB should be crystal clear on how it all works and live up to that standard.
                Clickbank does NOT give the refund. This whole thread is talking about (or at least it was) credit card chargebacks, which CB has no control over, and doesn't "get the ball rolling on".

                It's very possible that in Mike's situation, a customer tried to refund thru CB only to be told that the 60-day refund time period had passed. They wouldn't take no for an answer and opened a dispute with their credit card issuer, who promptly reversed the funds it had paid to CB.

                CB gets the chargeback from their merchant account, doesn't fight it because it takes too much time, then charges back Mike along with an inconvenience fee.
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                • Profile picture of the author scrofford
                  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

                  Clickbank does NOT give the refund. This whole thread is talking about (or at least it was) credit card chargebacks, which CB has no control over, and doesn't "get the ball rolling on".

                  It's very possible that in Mike's situation, a customer tried to refund thru CB only to be told that the 60-day refund time period had passed. They wouldn't take no for an answer and opened a dispute with their credit card issuer, who promptly reversed the funds it had paid to CB.

                  CB gets the chargeback from their merchant account, doesn't fight it because it takes too much time, then charges back Mike along with an inconvenience fee.
                  I'll back up then...Clickbank made the rules for them. In other words CB says that you have 60 days to refund a product you buy through them. REGARDLESS if CB gives the refund or a credit card company, CB SHOULD NOT say they give someone 60 days if they are going to go ahead and allow a refund THROUGH THEM if they will allow refunds after the deadline.

                  I understand what you are saying, BUT if they have no control over this, then they shouldn't put a deadline for refunds if they know the cc companies will give it to the customer anyway...That's my whole point. It's called lying and being dishonest.
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            • Profile picture of the author scrofford
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

                Clickbank DOES give the refund. The reason I say that is that if someone comes to them wanting a refund from a product they bought through Clickbank, then Clickbank gets the ball rolling. I know the card companies actually give the refund.

                My point is that CB SHOULD NOT be saying someone only has 60 days to refund and tell the vendors that also and then turn around and allow refund after that point. They should be in sync with the card companies they work with.

                In other words, CB should be crystal clear on how it all works and live up to that standard.
                That's been my major beef from starting this thread. Clickbank isn't living up to the same standard that they tell their merchants to do.
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      • Profile picture of the author suemax
        Originally Posted by ss442 View Post

        Clickbank, in effort to maintain a good relationship with Visa, Mastercard, and AMEX are contracted and obligated to serve those companies and their cardholders.

        If they lost the use of Visa or Mastercard, their business and your business would fold up faster than than a Chinese umbrella in a Texas twister. They probably erred on the side of caution. We know what happened to Ebay and their digital department when they clipped it, and their complaints from Visa and Mastercard was one of the reasons.

        I used to sell Visa and Mastercard equipment and I am familiar with their policies. They are bent toward the consumer and when it comes to digital unseen products I am sure that is a reason why.

        Having said that, they probably went directly through their credit card company because they knew 60 day warranty was over.

        We need to understand, most products and services have at least a one year warranty. Some internet marketers offer one year warranties but not many. I know this is partly due to perishable internet products but I think information products should have a longer warranty.

        Some marketers are sending a CD for added value for that very reason.

        I know it always is a disappointment when someone asks for a refund. Several times over the past couple months I've watched my Clickbank numbers fall due to refunds but I understand it because I've asked for refunds for various reasons.

        Best regards,
        I think Ed has just about hit the nail on the head here - they probably didn't take the time to contact you directly 'cos they were between the end of your refund time and yet still within the Credit Card 6 months. I thought, however, that the Credit Card refund only covered products over £100.

        In order to make the refund request to the credit card company, the buyer will have surely had to "make a case" to their credit card supplier. I realise that there are a lot of links in the chain (buyer, his card company / bank, clickbank's merchant, clickbank, you (seller)), but it should theoretically be possible to discover what the customer has said..... and if clickbank cannot be bothered to find this out, then it is their reputation that is sullied as your business partners. Insist they find out for you. After all, they are your suppliers, as your sales agents.
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        • Profile picture of the author dp40oz
          This is really an upsetting thing to know. Also what kind of miserable a$$h01e asks for his money back over 60 days later. I can't even remember the things I bought 60 days ago.
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          • Profile picture of the author genietoast
            Dude, that is all kinds of nonsense!
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          • Profile picture of the author GlobalTrader
            Originally Posted by dp40oz View Post

            This is really an upsetting thing to know. Also what kind of miserable a$ asks for his money back over 60 days later. I can't even remember the things I bought 60 days ago.
            The buyer may have used a stolen credit card and the real owner found the charge and rightfully made a chargeback.

            Because of large dollar items we have offered over the past 10 years we have had well over $1 million dollars in fraudulent orders. We have had days with up to $5K or more in fraud orders and at one time it was so bad, 8 out of every 10 orders were fraud.

            Because we processed all orders manually and put the order through a very stringent set of screening criteria, we never lost a dime, but my point is, the fraudsters have their own websites set up to exchange and sell stolen credit cards and often the real owner of the card will not catch the fraud charge until a month or two later.

            I am not taking up for the a**holes that do request a refund after 60 days, just pointing out an unfortunate fact of international commerce.
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  • Profile picture of the author Re-cycle
    Problem is Clickbank encourages the customers to ask for refunds in their email receipts by easily instructing them on how to ask for the refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
      Originally Posted by Re-cycle View Post

      Problem is Clickbank encourages the customers to ask for refunds in their email receipts by easily instructing them on how to ask for the refund.
      Walmart, JCPenny, Home Depot, Best Buy and all other reputable stores that I know of have their refund policy "clearly" stated on the back of the receipts.

      Keeping a person in dark will just leave a bad taste in the buyer's mouth and that's the last thing clickbank wants.

      Like I said before, that's part of the business. Learn to live with it.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

        Walmart, JCPenny, Home Depot, Best Buy and all other reputable stores that I know of have their refund policy "clearly" stated on the back of the receipts.

        Keeping a person in dark will just leave a bad taste in the buyer's mouth and that's the last thing clickbank wants.

        Like I said before, that's part of the business. Learn to live with it.
        Many people don't realize the flip side of this policy - by listing a clear, unambiguous and transparent refund policy on product purchases, this engenders confidence in buyers and probably results in significantly more sales than a vague or no-refund policy.

        Would you rather have significantly lower sales and absolutely zero refunds, or more sales and a few refunds?
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  • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

    How is this not complete theft of my product that is being supported by Clickbank's policies? What's the point of requiring merchants to have a 60 day refund policy if Clickbank isn't going to frickin' ENFORCE it?

    Has anyone else been ripped off by this hideously bad Clickbank policy?

    Mike
    How can Clickbank 'enforce' a bank chargeback? Has nothing to do with them - they got dinged for the money, now they're passing it along.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by SteveJohnson View Post

      How can Clickbank 'enforce' a bank chargeback? Has nothing to do with them - they got dinged for the money, now they're passing it along.
      It does have something to do with them. Chargeback claims don't result in automatic refunds. The merchant usually has the option to fight them or not. Apparently CB is choosing to not fight them, most likely because it's not worth their time. What's their take on any given transaction, a couple of bucks? It's cheaper for them to just give in, lose that couple of bucks, and pass the chargeback fee on to the merchant.
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      • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        It does have something to do with them. Chargeback claims don't result in automatic refunds. The merchant usually has the option to fight them or not. Apparently CB is choosing to not fight them, most likely because it's not worth their time. What's their take on any given transaction, a couple of bucks? It's cheaper for them to just give in, lose that couple of bucks, and pass the chargeback fee on to the merchant.
        Of course it's cheaper for them to give in.

        Here's a solution: if you don't like the terms that Clickbank imposes on vendors (you're not the merchant, Clickbank is), why don't you just sell the product yourself? Set up a merchant account, payment gateway, web site, affiliate army, hire a programmer...

        Or you can quit complaining about the one-in-a-thousand customers that file a dispute with their credit card company, the $40 or $50 that you had to give back to CB, and go about your business of creating and selling products.

        Just a thought.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        It does have something to do with them. Chargeback claims don't result in automatic refunds. The merchant usually has the option to fight them or not. Apparently CB is choosing to not fight them, most likely because it's not worth their time. What's their take on any given transaction, a couple of bucks? It's cheaper for them to just give in, lose that couple of bucks, and pass the chargeback fee on to the merchant.
        I don't know about other countries but in the UK, with every card merchant I have ever used, or heard about, this is exactly what does happen. The customer rings the CC company with a complaint. This instantly results in the money being withdrawn directly from the retailer / seller's bank account. It remains this way while pending review. Rarely does the final decision go in favour of the seller and it can go on for months.

        Whether this is dishonesty on Clickbank's part is a matter of opinion. I can understand the anger it causes from both sides, but in my experience of retail, I can fully sympathise with Clickbank having this policy. CC merchants are a f***** nightmare but a necessary evil. The seller is always the one who takes the brunt of chargebacks, it's been that way for years, long before IM was even a term. The only thing I see here that is questionable is that they don't reverse the chargeback in the (rare?) case that they may win.
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  • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
    Why not put as a part of your terms that they agree not to charge back after the refund period? Just a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author webalytics
    Banned
    The only problem is ClickBank doesn't control the credit card company's chargeback policies. PayPal is the same way. If a purchase was made via PayPal, then it's subject to PayPal's terms (and 60-day period). However if a customer uses their credit card to pay you via PayPal then the credit card company's chargeback policy takes precedence. It's a pain...but I guess it's at least understandable. Good luck!
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  • Profile picture of the author IdeaLady
    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

    Regrettably, the chargeback penalty is not reversible even if the customer asks his or her bank to cancel the dispute or repurchases the product."
    When there is a chargeback there is an additional fee charged (~$25) on top of the refund. What ClickBank is saying here is that the additional chargeback fee is not reversible even if the customer cancels the dispute or the dispute is resolved in your favor.

    I have had a couple of chargebacks over the years when customers didn't remember making the purchase. They were resolved in my favor, and the money was returned to my account, but I never got the chargeback fees back.

    This has nothing to do with ClickBank and everything to do with the slimy practices of the merchant account providers. Not only do they charge these fees, they encourage customers to make chargebacks when they call with an inquiry about a charge.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
    Mike,
    Sorry to hear about the shenanigans.

    I do believe PayPal has pretty much the same practice though.

    They have a $20 chargeback fee for anything that doesn't fall under their Protection Policy...

    The part that always seems so annoying to me is when you see banks advertising how great they protect these "unauthorized charges"...and yet the flip side of this is that they always seem to want to stiff the merchant instead of getting tough with the customer.

    Too bad the banks didn't absorb the cost...especially in the case of "unauthorized" purchases...

    Unfortunately, they just pass it on to the merchant...

    Hopefully this won't happen to you anytime again.

    All the best,
    Jack Duncan
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  • Profile picture of the author barryjhall
    Clickbank does have some very strict payment rules. A member of my team waited 8 months for his first cheque to arrive simply because there were not enough different credit card transactions to his account. When the cheque came it was £345 so that tells you that clickbank just hold on to your money unnessesarily in my opinion.
    Tread carefully when starting out as an affiliate, read the small print thoroughly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Trent Brownrigg
    The funny thing is that I have been an internet marketer for almost 8 years and have been promoting products from clickbank that entire time with a lot of success. I've also had a couple of my own being sold on there a long time ago. And I've bought so many of them during that span I'd hate to count them up and actually see how much money I've spent.

    Plus, I've obviously seen marketers complaining hundreds of times about their refund policy because it's too easy (such as this post).

    However, with that being said, I have never asked for a refund from CB and I don't even know how to do it if I wanted to. Apparently I am not as smart as all the people that buy CB products then turn around and ask for a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      Have you ever tested your refund periods? I suspect you have not.

      When I started out I was terrified to offer longer refund periods, I was sure I'd be taken advantage of by dishonest people.

      I've never found that to be the case, and with only one single exception every time I've offered a longer refund period my conversions went up and my refunds went down.

      In every case that my merchant allows me to offer a 1 year policy I now do, and I'm much better off for it financially, plus it gives me a better relationship with the people on my list (ie I'm seen as one of the few honest people in my market willing to stand behind the product).

      Sadly most merchants have a hissy fit over 1 year refund policies, so you can't pull it off too often, but in every case that you can - in my experience - you should.

      Business isn't about opinion, what "should be" and what you prefer. It's about the bottom line, data and facts.




      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      I've had this happen to me several times. I sell a lot of reseller products through E-Junkie and I always offer a 30 day money-back policy on the sales pages.

      Last week I had a guy who bought a traffic generation ebook from me for $7 and kept it 29 days, then decided to ask for a refund because "it was not what was advertised".

      Sure, it made me as mad as hell, but I had to give him his money back. I guess this is just par for the course when dealing in digital products. I don't sell my products through Clickbank because I absolutely deplore that 60 day policy. That is absolutely ridiculous.

      A person knows whether or not they want a refund within a few days, let alone 60. I believe that 30 days is more than sufficient.

      Another thing with Paypal is that if people just file a dispute over a digital product, the seller can escalate it to a claim and the buyer almost always loses. But, if the buyer files a chargeback, then the seller always loses, and many of the snakes who practice this "buy, download, and return" method know this.
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    I had no idea about this problem. Thank you for sharing your experience and opening our eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author CR
    Seriously guys... refunds are just one part of doing business online. There's always going to be the cretins who believe they're entitled to something of yours... for free.
    Mike Filsaime said it best at one internet conference - "Refunds are a fact of life. Don't waste your time or emotions on them. Move on!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Mike, this is the reason why, as a vendor, I will never put another product
      up at the Clickbank marketplace. I'll sell them as an affiliate, where, if this
      happens, it's on the merchant and not me. But NEVER, EVER, EVER again
      will I put one of my products up there.

      They are, in short, scum when it comes to this issue.

      Sorry folks, but I call it as I see it. What they are doing is against their
      own policy and does make them, as Mike calls it, a total joke.
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Mike, this is the reason why, as a vendor, I will never put another product
        up at the Clickbank marketplace. I'll sell them as an affiliate, where, if this
        happens, it's on the merchant and not me. But NEVER, EVER, EVER again
        will I put one of my products up there.
        You do realise that this happens for most processors? More times than not, the credit card company will side with the buyer, their client. The fee happens no matter what. When or lose. To CB it costs more (time) to fight than they will win
        Sorry folks, but I call it as I see it. What they are doing is against their
        own policy and does make them, as Mike calls it, a total joke.
        How so? Their TOS has it listed.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          You do realise that this happens for most processors? More times than not, the credit card company will side with the buyer, their client. The fee happens no matter what. When or lose. To CB it costs more (time) to fight than they will win
          How so? Their TOS has it listed.
          Then the 60 day refund policy is worthless if people can just put in a
          chargeback with their bank and get their money anyway.

          If Clickbank isn't going to fight these then there is no point to their refund
          policy at all.

          Sorry, but one way or another, however you want to look at it, the process
          is totally FUBAR.
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          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Then the 60 day refund policy is worthless if people can just put in a
            chargeback with their bank and get their money anyway.

            If Clickbank isn't going to fight these then there is no point to their refund
            policy at all.

            Sorry, but one way or another, however you want to look at it, the process
            is totally FUBAR.
            That's true of everyone. And yes, there is a point - honest people do not do the chargebacks. Honest people don't run to CB for refunds. Most people are honest.

            If you had enough of either to be an issue, there is some other problem. Something isn't clear. or maybe it's the market. In 10 years, I've had less than "5" chargebacks from CB buyers.

            For example: People on my lists from safelists and giveaways tend to ask for more refunds than people who find me via other methods.

            IMHO The chargeback issue w/ CB is mute. Sure, they should fight them but not doing it might keep them in better standings.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

              That's true of everyone. And yes, there is a point - honest people do not do the chargebacks. Honest people don't run to CB for refunds. Most people are honest.

              If you had enough of either to be an issue, there is some other problem. Something isn't clear. or maybe it's the market. In 10 years, I've had less than "5" chargebacks from CB buyers.

              For example: People on my lists from safelists and giveaways tend to ask for more refunds than people who find me via other methods.

              IMHO The chargeback issue w/ CB is mute. Sure, they should fight them but not doing it might keep them in better standings.
              Actually, I had ONE chargeback in 8 years.

              Know what they did to my account for that ONE chargeback?

              They cranked my reserve up to like 30%.

              For ONE Chargeback.

              THAT is why I will not deal with Clickbank anymore as far as hosting my
              products in a marketplace.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by CR View Post

      Seriously guys... refunds are just one part of doing business online. There's always going to be the cretins who believe they're entitled to something of yours... for free.
      Mike Filsaime said it best at one internet conference - "Refunds are a fact of life. Don't waste your time or emotions on them. Move on!"
      I couldn't agree more, especially in the case of this chargeback. It will inevitably occur every now and then, but if it is so rare that it only happens 1% or less of the time, I don't think it'd be wise or productive to get so worked up over it.

      Chargebacks are a fact of life just like refunds, but they occur so very rarely that our time and effort would be much better spent elsewhere in a more productive manner.

      Don't forget that with Clickbank, your atypical chargeback has most likely already been offset by random affiliates promoting your product, and this is something you'd not benefit from if you had not listed your product there.
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      • Profile picture of the author mysterrio
        I have to say - I think ALL of clickbank is a joke. Okay you software guys out there...develop a system so we do not have to do business with the big evil CB. That's a money maker there!

        I had $48.00 tied up in CB because I sold one product and have not reached the minimum credit card numbers or whatever - so they sucked that dry...it's just policy

        I had more than that - but as you said - refunds kicked in...it's just policy
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
    As has already been suggested, don't deal with CB.

    I sell all my products/services directly through Paypal or 2Checkout. Things are much easier to deal with this way.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail Sober
    Each time you sell a product through ClickBank, we purchase the product from you at wholesale price, which for standard products is 92.5% of the approved retail price. In addition, ClickBank charges $1 per transaction. Therefore, on each sale ClickBank effectively keeps 7.5% plus $1. This takes place before affiliate commissions are paid out.
    Technically, you sold the product to clickbank, clickbank sold the product to the customer so who should really responsible for that fee?

    Cause, if you think about it, they aren't really acting as a payment processor, they are actually buying the product from you and reselling it themselves.

    Just wondering
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    • Profile picture of the author ripsnorta2
      A lot of people here are having a go at the person who asked their bank to do the chargeback. Has anyone considered that someone else may have stolen the credit card (number) and used the card fraudulently?

      If it was, then the CC owner has every right to do a chargeback, no matter how long after the charge, up to the time allowed by the bank.

      CC fraud isn't uncommon, and I'm kind of surprised that I don't hear more reports of chargebacks on these forums.
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    • Profile picture of the author tj
      Originally Posted by Gail Sober View Post

      Technically, you sold the product to clickbank, clickbank sold the product to the customer so who should really responsible for that fee?

      Cause, if you think about it, they aren't really acting as a payment processor, they are actually buying the product from you and reselling it themselves.

      Just wondering
      Nope - they just offer you a market place where you you can sell your product for a fee that CB keeps for their costs and profits.

      Timo
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

    How is this not complete theft of my product that is being supported by Clickbank's policies? What's the point of requiring merchants to have a 60 day refund policy if Clickbank isn't going to frickin' ENFORCE it?

    Has anyone else been ripped off by this hideously bad Clickbank policy
    Mike, I think you are asking the wrong question.

    There is no question that getting ripped off as you were is going to be an emotional experience. That happened to me once many years ago and I came very close to removing the causes from the gene pool. At least that's what I tell people.

    A better question is how big is the problem of what happened to you.

    Is this something that can and/or needs to be dealt with?

    Or is it making a mountain out of a molehill and is just an exception to a normally well run process that we need to put in perspective?

    Having run through a number of similar "unjust" situations, I've started asking these questions of myself each time they happen.

    I now lead a much more contented life .

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Well here's something that I told myself a looong time ago:

    That's the nature of the beast

    Refunds are part of the business and like it or not it is what it is. Learn to live with it rather than running around mad crazy trying to kill kittens.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Well here's something that I told myself a looong time ago:

      That's the nature of the beast

      Refunds are part of the business and like it or not it is what it is. Learn to live with it rather than running around mad crazy trying to kill kittens.
      I totally agree, but how did this violent scenario involving kittens enter the picture here? LOL...are you trying to insert some subliminal message here?
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        I totally agree, but how did this violent scenario involving kittens enter the picture here? LOL...are you trying to insert some subliminal message here?
        I thought it's human nature to try and kill kittens when we get mad.

        What!!!! are you telling me that's just me?
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    • Profile picture of the author mysterrio
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Well here's something that I told myself a looong time ago:

      That's the nature of the beast

      Refunds are part of the business and like it or not it is what it is. Learn to live with it rather than running around mad crazy trying to kill kittens.

      So do not build a better mouse trap? Or just use the one we have untill someone builds a better mouse trap? Just wondering your thoughts.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by mysterrio View Post

        So do not build a better mouse trap? Or just use the one we have untill someone builds a better mouse trap? Just wondering your thoughts.
        LOL why did I even start this

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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Well here's something that I told myself a looong time ago:

      That's the nature of the beast

      Refunds are part of the business and like it or not it is what it is. Learn to live with it rather than running around mad crazy trying to kill kittens.
      Let me clear up a few misconceptions I've seen a few people state about my OP.

      I don't have a problem with refunds. I've been self-employed since 1993 so I've seen my share of them in a variety of businesses that I've owned.

      This Clickbank product has the highest refund rate of all of my products... it's around 7% of all orders. Most of my info-products (knock on wood) average about 1% refund rate because I focus on over-delivering on the content and usually offer a 1 year money back guarantee on each product.

      But Clickbank requires 60 day money back guarantee so that's what I offer on this product.

      The customer ordered on November 10th.

      The 60 day refund policy expires on/around Jan 10th.

      Then the chargeback happens on Feb 4th.

      Clickbank does the refund after the refund period expired and then wacks me the refund and chargeback amount.

      They tell me it's not reversible and can not be appealed.

      In contrast, I can appeal any dispute or chargeback raised through PayPal or a merchant account.

      In other words, Clickbank is not enforcing their own refund policy but they expect the merchant to stick to it. They don't go to bat for the merchant about the chargeback and they won't let the merchant challenge the chargeback either.

      That's the core reasons why I started this thread.

      Stores like Walmart, etc... they enforce their policy. If you don't believe me then try taking something back you bought there after the refund/exchange policy is over. If you're lucky, you'll get a store credit.

      I've thought of the possibility of credit card fraud but I tend to doubt it.

      This particular info-product isn't a MMO or push button solution. It's on how to market a specific type of non-IM service business for little or no money.

      So unless you're in that type of business, the product probably wouldn't interest you. It probably wouldn't interest most folks surfing the warez/torrents of the world either.

      Hope that helps clear things up a bit.

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Let me clear up a few misconceptions I've seen a few people state about my OP.

        I don't have a problem with refunds. I've been self-employed since 1993 so I've seen my share of them in a variety of businesses that I've owned.

        This Clickbank product has the highest refund rate of all of my products... it's around 7% of all orders. Most of my info-products (knock on wood) average about 1% refund rate because I focus on over-delivering on the content and usually offer a 1 year money back guarantee on each product.

        But Clickbank requires 60 day money back guarantee so that's what I offer on this product.

        The customer ordered on November 10th.

        The 60 day refund policy expires on/around Jan 10th.

        Then the chargeback happens on Feb 4th.

        Clickbank does the refund after the refund period expired and then wacks me the refund and chargeback amount.

        They tell me it's not reversible and can not be appealed.

        In contrast, I can appeal any dispute or chargeback raised through PayPal or a merchant account.

        In other words, Clickbank is not enforcing their own refund policy but they expect the merchant to stick to it. They don't go to bat for the merchant about the chargeback and they won't let the merchant challenge the chargeback either.

        That's the core reasons why I started this thread.

        Stores like Walmart, etc... they enforce their policy. If you don't believe me then try taking something back you bought there after the refund/exchange policy is over. If you're lucky, you'll get a store credit.

        I've thought of the possibility of credit card fraud but I tend to doubt it.

        This particular info-product isn't a MMO or push button solution. It's on how to market a specific type of non-IM service business for little or no money.

        So unless you're in that type of business, the product probably wouldn't interest you. It probably wouldn't interest most folks surfing the warez/torrents of the world either.

        Hope that helps clear things up a bit.

        Mike
        Then I guess that's the nature of the clickbank beast?

        Seriously though, complaining (for lack of a better word) won't help. Now that you know this is the way "clickbank" works, you can:

        1. Learn to live with it

        2. Move away from clickbank

        You shouldn't be asking yourself "Is Clickbank Refund Policy a Joke?"

        Instead, ask yourself if this "joke" is OK with you. If yes, great. If not, then look for alternatives.

        Weigh out the pros and cons for your own self.

        My opinion, your opinion or anyone else's opinion for that matter won't change anything. The only person (or group) whose opinion matters here is Clickbank itself.

        Hope it helps
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Then the chargeback happens on Feb 4th.

        Clickbank
        ...has no choice.

        A chargeback is between the consumer and the card issuer, and involves an allegation of fraud or abuse.

        It is not a refund and does not come under Clickbank's policies. Clickbank has no real involvement in it whatsoever; the card issuer simply tells Clickbank what to do, and they are legally required to do it.

        Now, granted, most chargebacks are a FALSE allegation of fraud or abuse. Someone will order a product on the internet, then immediately contact their bank and claim the purchase was made without their consent.
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  • Profile picture of the author ripsnorta2
    I'm not sure why no one realizes the core issue by the OP is not a problem with refunds.

    It doesn't matter how good a refund policy that *any* company provides, if a credit card is used fraudulently, the CC owner will ask the bank to do a charge-back.

    The odds are that the charge-back the OP was talking about was due to a case of credit card fraud.
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  • Profile picture of the author Pursuit2Success
    It is what it is though. That's the way of life.
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  • Profile picture of the author Markus Mar
    I have heard of a few stories like this already.
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  • Profile picture of the author sylviad
    I agree. If the chargeback comes from the customer's bank or CC company, that's a whole different issue than just asking for a refund through CB.

    People can get around refund policies if they try hard enough, and this seems to be one that is quite effective. On a positive note, CB claims that if that person does it too often, he will be banned from ordering CB products in future. That doesn't help you much, though.

    Unfortunately, you can't stop that person from buying again? Or can you? Can you do anything in PayPal to block him? It's too late anyway for this order, but if possible, I'd put him on my blacklist.

    Do you have any evidence that he purchased your product more than once?

    Chargebacks are set in place by the CC and banks to prevent their customers from being scammed, for instance if someone steals their CC and charges to it. You can ask for a chargeback, if you catch it soon enough. So if you're on that end of the stick, you'll be happy to have that feature.

    I don't think it's fair that you should be charged for the chargeback. It's not like you did anything wrong.

    Sylvia
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  • Profile picture of the author Markus Mar
    Hi Shannon,

    Can I take a look at your product's sales page that's receiving
    less than half a percent refund rate? I am quite intrigued.

    Thanks,

    Markus
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  • Profile picture of the author Owen Smith
    Create a membership website witht he content locked under a password and username, if they ask for a refund, lock them out, simple as that.

    -Owen
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
    One decent alternative to Clickbank is Plimus. I've run a few large promotions (+6 figures) there, and they have a pretty good size network of affiliates in the niche I'm most active in. Not sure how they are in IM, but I know a lot of the big name CB MMO online guys us it for other niches they are involved with.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lostincyberspace
    It's a double-edged sword to be sure. There's a heap of products on CB that aren't worth squat (imho) so it's good to know you can always get your refund... also good to know that no matter what you promote as an afiliate then it is also covered by guarantee.
    On the downside... I'm seeing a marked increase in refunds right now - no doubt people regretting their expendture over the holiday season!
    As for the start of the thread... I guess Clickbank standard refund policy will always be secondary to that of a bank charge card. Would be nice if they'd argue the case a little tho.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Plank
    Mike, I think my record was, I had someone charge back almost 9 months after the original purchase was made. 9 MONTHS!

    It was the day before Christmas too.
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  • Profile picture of the author centarec
    Ok...let's face it. There is nothing completely we can do about it. Tried many times talking with CB representatives with no success. If they wanted to investigate the issue, they could easily rejected the chargeback, but they will not do this, plus better for them, they get $18 for it. Talking about the extra charge...

    "A purchase is revoked if the customer's bank later claims the purchase was unfunded, unauthorized or fraudulent. Revoked sales cost ClickBank money and harm our reputation as a reliable Product retailer. In these instances, we charge the Vendor $18 per revoked or charged back sale. ClickBank reserves the right to charge increased fees per credit card chargeback, up to $100, if a publisher's products generate in excess of 1% chargebacks in any 90-day period."

    ...how is unfounded, unauthorized or fraudulentpurchase Vendors fault?!?!? Can you explain me why $18 are charged from the Vendors account if some idiot stole the CC and used it to purchase? If you think logically it is more CB fault then Vendors problem. If they improved their system and security maybe purchases like this will no go through. Vendors cannot do anything to stop these purchases and I really do not see reason why they should pay for it. Plus trust me, as a vendor it pisses me off when someone gets my product, request for license, receives the license, send email conformation that the product worked, and then does chargeback. For me this is equal as someone stealing from the supermarket.
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