Is this ethical?! This guy is paying his outsources <$2/HOUR!!!

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Countries like the US and the UK have a large population of illegal immigrants who will work in dangerous or crappy jobs for almost nothing. Some people even contend that without this black market workforce agriculture and the restaurant business would be in big trouble.

In the 80s I worked in a restaurant where the Polish dishwasher was getting $120 for a 90 hour week.

My apologies, Martin. I was referring to "legal wages". If illegal things like that happen, I'm certainly not privy to it, but it does illustrate the greed of some companies who will take advantage of the situation in their own countries.

[Alice Seba]

Originally Posted by Colin Evans

Personally, I'd rather pay two people $2 than one person $4 - that way there's two happy people (make that families) instead of only one (IMO it also gives the local economy a more effective boost when two people earn an income instead of one higher paid person)...

Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.

[OnlineMasterMind]

Originally Posted by doop

I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

Replace Myself | HomePage

The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

A little ironic when a socialist ends up promoting a capitalist.

I think John now owes you a xmas card.

[Martin Luxton]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

My apologies, Martin. I was referring to "legal wages". If illegal things like that happen, I'm certainly not privy to it, but it does illustrate the greed of some companies who will take advantage of the situation in their own countries.

Alice,

No apology necessary - there was no implied criticism

Our respective governments tend not to advertise how much our economies depend on cheap black economy labo(u)r.

I don't know if you have read the Lovejoy series of books (he's a loveable rogue antiques dealer).

Lovejoy values antiques based on the daily wage of a skilled worker. So, for example, a Louis XIV chair wouldn't be $70,000 it would be 2 years' wages.

I think that would be a much more sensible way to work out how to pay outsourced workers. Research the local market.

For example, here in Turkey, 72% of teachers have a second or third job and some of them accept as little as $5 an hour to teach in private schools (we're talking trained, professional educators here). An English native speaker with no teaching qualifications or experience can walk into a job and get three or four times that rate (a weird anomaly where black economy workers actually do very well).

One word of warning, though. It can be hard to get reliable information from some countries on economic data. The big scandal in Turkey at the moment is the appearance of 6 million new voters just before the local elections.

It seems the government massaged the workforce figures downwards a while back so the income per capita rose rapidly, creating an economic "miracle". Now they need more voters so . . .

Martin

[picus]

Well, it depends of the other person's condition. Imagine a guy that has no job, has to pay medicine, food, etc. His only way of living is a digital service. If he agrees, it's better $2 than nothing.
Of course I would not pay that low to an outsorcer, but the market is so competitive now that things have changed.
For instance, I charge 7 cents per word to translate technical documents, most of my competitors charge at least 10 c/w.

Regards!

[koolphoto]

I am a freelancer. I do web design. I set my own rates. I can charge anything I want. If I choose to charge $2 an hour I may be foolish but it has nothing to do about being ethical or not if you use me.

On the other hand if you somehow force me to accept a rate that is lower then I would rather work for but maybe somehow you coerced me and I feel forced to take it then that is where I think ethics comes into play.

[YellowDot Software]

Let's not forget that over a third of the world is living on less than $2 per day period. So $2 per hour is an extremely better deal to 1 out of 3 people on our planet.

When I got into affiliate marketing a few years ago I always thought about how getting one American to sign up for some ringtone offer had the same value as providing food for a week to a whole family in a different country.

We are a great country, and having so many things makes our expenses much much higher

[Eric Stanley]

Originally Posted by Mike McBride

Beating a dead horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

+1 to Mike.. Infinite Unresolve

[Hesaidblissfully]

Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois

I see a problem when the work environment and tasks required go against the basic principles of human dignity - such as is often the case with the sweatshops that sometimes make the news, or even back in Canada where you will often find nurses forced to work double or triple shifts.

This impacts the quality of life of a person the most - not the amount of money given to them for a task, but how the said task is going to reflect on all other aspects of their lives.

I agree with this. And remember a lot of these countries where work is outsourced are the same places you see in those "Save the Children" type commercials where they're telling you that "for less than a dollar a day, you can pay for a child's food and medicine."

[sree94]

Originally Posted by tommygadget

In a free market economy, people have the freedom to accept any job that they want to do. If my living expenses weren't so high, I would not worry about accepting less money. I broke my back when I was a kid at an electrical supply house for $4/hr. and it was brutal. $2/hr. to sit at a computer is a good job in some parts of the world. After all, every single one of us with a JOB are paid peanuts when compared to how much money we create for the company WE work for. Are people with a JOB being exploited?

TomG.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this.

I have no idea what the cost of living is there, but if the person you are paying is getting paid well for the standards of their country, what's the problem?

[The 13th Warrior]

I would support someones feelings of ethics, if they are genuine.

Unless you buy A-L-L your personal products from ETHICAL manufacturers who pay a decent wage, (good luck), don't point fingers.

Anyone who buys Nikies and shop at Wal-Mart and other related type goods are at least doing two things:

1) supporting slave labor and almost inhuman work conditions

2) eventually putting yourself, your economy and your areas economy out of business, what business in your area can compete with $2/hr labor? Relocation of that job and labor is inevitable .

So we should not complain to our government when we help the problem. Saying I don't have time to know where everything I buy comes or reasonably deniable ignorance is no excuse, I'm as guilty as everyone else.

From who picks your fruit and vegetables in the field, to everything else, we support it with our dollars, knowingly or not.

Very few of us, if any do due diligence of ethical products we buy from raw material stage to end product, not to mention union made products. We simply won't buy it.

Ethical product A)-with ethical labor from raw material to end: $30.00

UnEthical product B)-with slave labor and inhuman/unsafe working conditions: $4.00

Wal-Mart owners and the like are Billionaires because of our choice, don't deny we would not and are not buying B.

The sales and labor relocations don't lie.

Just live with the consequences when the world ecomony continues to spiral and collapse, because most companies are looking to relocate and pay desperate people in the jungle somewhere $.10 and hour....keep finding new, lower paying jobs until it collapse, never being able to retire, have some entreprenur success until money gets so tight, that even marketers start falling by the wasteside like the banks and mortagage companies.

Who made money in The Depression?

In the Depression, at least their was still industrial revolution, manufacturing,innovation and expansion, jobs created.

That's not going to happen again.

Even if NEW technology was discovered, why pay someone in your area $20.00 an hour or more when I can go to some mudhut residence and pay .03 cents an hour and be considered a hero there, with the blessing of the goverment and diplomatic immunity status, a celebrity. That's if they even have a government.

If I was a greedy, self-centered , all about the money and numbers,period, type of employer in the 21st century and beyond, why would I EVER go to a progressive country for labor when I can go to India, China,and probably somebody on Mars who is gladly willing to work for .05 cents an hour in the most unsafe and worst human condition they will tolerate or can legally get away with?

The 13 th Warrior

[Alexandre Valois]

It is very hard to draw the line as to the value of 2$ here.

As I said, my neighbor was lucky finding a job as an IT - which I believe nets him about 18,000 pesos per month (360$ in US equivalent).

A rule of thumb is that most things here are about 3 to 5 times cheaper than back in the states.

So I guess it would be safe to say that a 2$ per hour would equal about 6$ to 8$
per hour in the states, in a country where unemployment is the norm - without the need to ever leave home or commute, doing a relatively easy job (no physical work required) that doesn't require 12 hour long shifts or more (which is common here).

Statistics here are somewhat unreliable, considering it is a 3rd world country and a great number of people here live in the province, without electricity and earning little more than 200$ per year ... but they don't need to, they work their own land and are mostly self-sustaining themselves and doing trade with other people from their community.

Here in Makati, one of the largest international business districts, almost everything is "foreigner friendly", which make prices an cost of living skyrocket.

[chrisburton]

i guess it depends on how much the average person makes over there.. im not familiar with that so i cant really answer.

[chrisburton]

Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois

It is very hard to draw the line as to the value of 2$ here.

As I said, my neighbor was lucky finding a job as an IT - which I believe nets him about 18,000 pesos per month (360$ in US equivalent).

A rule of thumb is that most things here are about 3 to 5 times cheaper than back in the states.

So I guess it would be safe to say that a 2$ per hour would equal about 6$ to 8$
per hour in the states, in a country where unemployment is the norm - without the need to ever leave home or commute, doing a relatively easy job (no physical work required) that doesn't require 12 hour long shifts or more (which is common here).

Statistics here are somewhat unreliable, considering it is a 3rd world country and a great number of people here live in the province, without electricity and earning little more than 200$ per year ... but they don't need to, they work their own land and are mostly self-sustaining themselves and doing trade with other people from their community.

Here in Makati, one of the largest international business districts, almost everything is "foreigner friendly", which make prices an cost of living skyrocket.

that makes sense

[chrisburton]

the other thing is if its right to continue for a country to outsource when so many people here are unemployed. Theres many pros and cons.

[Lance K]

Originally Posted by JPMaroney

AGREE!!!

That's what I was thinking the whole time -- and was scanning the thread looking to see if someone else had said it before posting it.

JP, 17 posts since Feb. 2005? Your keyboard must be hot.

Seriously though, good to hear from you.

Perhaps we'll be lucky enough to lure you into posting a little more frequently.

Have you found your way over to Bruce's new copywriting board yet?

[Mari_Quint]

It's an agreed rate between the 2 contracting parties. Hence, it's not slavery.

$2/hour is relatively acceptable in third world countries for data entry work. Plus, you have to consider currency exchange. $2 is like Php100 in the Philippines. That amount is fair enough if we talk about the type of work being contracted.

[napoleonfirst]

Well, in many countries this is ethical because of the unemployment rate.

[kettlewell]

I've used coders from Vietnam and they were totally ecstatic that they won a bid on Rentacoder for ~5-7/hour for a job that would have cost me ~$50-75 here in the States.... They were HAPPY! and so was I. If two parties, from two different cultures and circumstances can come together and both be happy, I think that is a win/win - In the end, over time, I think that this will equalize the payment structure world wide so that this sort of a payment/arbitrage gap won't exist, but while it does exist, there can't be anything unethical if no one is harmed, and everyone is making fair wage (from local perspective)

[Colin Evans]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.

I'd pay one person $4 per hour as long as they also supervised 2 others at $2 per hour

[SpudDS]

I have just had an article written for me for $1.50 and he is willing to do 20 for $20 and the guy is in UK.

I don't feel guilty and the articles are great

[viktor]

Originally Posted by SpudDS

I have just had an article written for me for $1.50 and he is willing to do 20 for $20 and the guy is in UK.

I don't feel guilty and the articles are great

Me too. Ten 500 word articles for $30, and the writer is from Britain.

[The 13th Warrior]

Funny, funny people, making ourselves righteous and " this is the best and most honest I can be, as far as I can see."

So, if a guy was starving for 3 weeks ,drinking muddy water, you come along eating an orange and you "graciously" give him a few orange peels and seeds to munch on, hey, he was doing worse before I came along.

Yeah, give you the key to Saint Peters gate, you giving creature ,you. LOL.

"Well, that impoverished place, .50 cents is like $20 there, its all relative."

If that's what makes you sleep at night, if you believe that's "what Jesus" would do, have comfortable sleep...., I really, really mean that.

If you ever find yourself on a uncharted , deserted island, hours before dying of starvation and some passerby offers you a raw, decomposed rat that was dead in a rat trap for 12 days, and thats all they offered you, remember your sentiments and karma, and eat up, by the way, there's nothing on this small island to make a fire, and passerby ain't offering anything else, either.

If I , here in the U.S., can CHOOSE to work for $1 per article, the high percentage and likelyhood currently "IS" that I have a multitude of choices, so far. There are other and better options.

So if a person has NO options, except to starve to death, trapped in a corner with no way out, whatever is offered is a benevolent opportunity?

Do whatever you want, we all gonna do that anyway, but get off the white horse.

Your reservation to paradise and humanity is soooooooooooooooooooooo confirmed and locked.

No, you got the VIP section.

Box seats next to the BIG MAN, himself, you sweet person, you. :-)

The 13 th Warrior

[Preben Frenning]

Seriously. That was just plain stupid.

So you're telling us it's better to walk along the dirty road where it sits houndreds of poor Filipinos and suddenly STOP, point your finger at a random boy or girl and say: "Hey. Work for me. I will give you your own car, office and enough money to feed your entire family and buy whatever you like. Here's a steak and some wine to get you started"

Everything in front of the other Filipino's eyes. You think that gives you better karma?

Personally I'd rather get a guy who's stepped on a landmine, lost his legs, and whom has no hope to survive, other than his friends and family to work for me for a better wage than his neighbour. - Who is semi-middleclass and makes $1.50/hr working 10 hour shifts.

Really, it's not fair to pay a random asian man or woman four times the minimum wage for being trained as well as working for you.

Am I the only one who thinks this?

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but this really bothers me. - So don't get mad at me here =P

This is a really sensitive and provocative topic, but it's interesting as well.

- Preben

[Paul Myers]

13,

So if a person has NO options, except to starve to death, trapped in a corner with no way out, whatever is offered is a benevolent opportunity?

No. THAT would be exploitation. Like the people mentioned earlier who end up working 8 hours on a second shift to earn $1.

Painting a picture that doesn't apply, and trying to make people judge the situation as though it does, is dishonest. If you've read through the preceding posts, including those from people who live in the Phillipines, then you know that what you said was inapplicable.


Paul

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Preben Frenning

Seriously. That was just plain stupid.

So you're telling us it's better to walk along the dirty road where it sits houndreds of poor Filipinos and suddenly STOP, point your finger at a random boy or girl and say: "Hey. Work for me. I will give you your own car, office and enough money to feed your entire family and buy whatever you like. Here's a steak and some wine to get you started"

Stupid?!?

Yeah, exactly, I totally agree, " IF " the above illustration is accurate.

How about this? How about NOT playing stupid and acting blind to justify the means to the end.

It's all about BALANCE. So there is NO such thing as a middle ground, a happy medium?

Simply can't stretch the imagination to something pragmatic, and rational, for whats needed or could be of some real use at the time.

Here's an example: Some dude came up to me, asking for money. I said money for what?
He said he was hungry. So I said, if I buy you some food, you're cool? He said yep.

So I bought him a meal , that I, myself,would've eaten had he refused it.

Should I have bought him Lobster and Steak? No, not even rich people do that everyday. Most folks, rich or poor eat at regular places , on average, like everyone else.

I looked at him eat it, and it was smelling so good, I ordered the SAME thing for myself.

Balance. Not in necessarily extremes all the time, one side or the other.

There is a fair, reasonable solution without the extremes, if one but took the time. But if you consider a that a waste of time, then that is your belief.

If you simply do what you honestly can do within reason, and its from the sincerest heart, you will find a way.

Do what your heart and conscious tell you, good or bad, it'll manifest out eventually.

The 13 th Warrior

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

13,No. THAT would be exploitation. Like the people mentioned earlier who end up working 8 hours on a second shift to earn $1.

Painting a picture that doesn't apply, and trying to make people judge the situation as though it does, is dishonest. If you've read through the preceding posts, including those from people who live in the Phillipines, then you know that what you said was inapplicable.

Paul

Inapplicable? You lost me.

I was only giving an example. You want to argue semantics, you win, I'm out.

You and I are only one person, and you can do what only you know you can reasonably do.

When I met people, I try to feel in concert with logic and sincerity whats right for the situation at the time.

You only see what you can see and I see what I can see, and we both see what we are willingly want to see.

The 13 th Warrior

[Paul Myers]

13,

How about this? How about NOT playing stupid and acting blind to justify the means to the end. ... There is a fair, reasonable solution without the extremes, if one but took the time. But if you consider a that a waste of time, then that is your belief.

Wow.

You have got to be the most sneakily judgmental jack_ss I've seen on here in ages. If you're going to judge someone, have the spine to come right out and do it, instead of trying to hide your bull droppings behind pseudo-rationality.

What the OP pointed to is actually the equivalent of giving someone the ability to buy that meal for himself, every day. How is that worthy of your pious scorn?


Paul

[Preben Frenning]

Agreed Paul.

If $2 is more than a regular job in the Filipines, then it's GREAT PAY for getting paid for training as well.

I mean, everyone have heard the saying about giving a man a fishing rod, vs. giving him a fish and feeding him for a day.
And That's EXACTLY what you are doing if you hire and train someone over there. You are giving that person a "fishing rod"!

I think it's way more fair to start at for example $1.5/hr if that's above the minimum over there, and increasing it as they get better, so they actually increase in knowledge etc., and paying more is fair to the others who doesn't work for someone abroad.

It's simply not fair to pay them more "just because you can" when you consider the other people.

But I can agree that this is a quite individual topic. However, I would feel great knowing that I supported a Filipino by giving him work, training and possibly a better future.

I have no difficulties with that myself, as I almost only see benefits for doing this, and it really makes sense to me.

- Preben

[Alexandre Valois]

Also, just to add some informations in regard to hiring filipino freelancers:

- Even here in the capital, it is not unusual for the internet to be down for hours on end, sometimes even a whole day. Expect it and account for it when dealing with deadlines (I found that one out by experiencing it myself, thank you).

- Filipinos love holidays. So much they have one almost every day. Ok, that wasn't true, but still, there are lot of holidays here where people will want to take often a few days off to visit family and relatives, especially if they live around the capital and the rest of their sibblings are still in the province.

- Employers here are required to provide a "13th month pay" every December, which is a bonus at least equivalent to one month's salary to be paid to all full-time employees. Of course, working with freelancers make that one optional, but I would encourage anyone to keep it in mind nonetheless.

Hope this helps
Alex.

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

13,Wow.

You have got to be the most sneakily judgmental jack_ss I've seen on here in ages. If you're going to judge someone, have the spine to come right out and do it, instead of trying to hide your bull droppings behind pseudo-rationality.

What the OP pointed to is actually the equivalent of giving someone the ability to buy that meal for himself, every day. How is that worthy of your pious scorn?

Pau

You may have SOME merit here, as I did not explain myself.

When I said not playing stupid, It was not personally toward anyone or personal,

2) Playing stupid meant only to question one's self whether one is examining the situation as is, what one would like it to be, one's limitations or boundaries to see based on one's attitude, or is refusing to concede possiblities in the quest for the best solution.

So I can see why you would say "sneakly judgemental", except , to be fair, any opinion expressed here has its roots or conclusion to some judgement, based on belief , experience, what have you.

Calling for the search of a happy medium or middle ground "pseudo-rationality-bull droppings " only expresses your opinion of this strategy, which appears to be ridiculous in your eyes, is unworthy of mention.

Whatever your definition of exploitation is, that is yours. Giving someone the ability to buy that meal himself is a worthy deed. "Giving someone the ability".....ability defined by whose standards and ethics? Exploitation or opportunity? Its your own call. I gave my example of a good call and a bad call.

And whats wrong with attempting to be pious? I should hope everyone has that goal.

And yes, if I see or feel something is exploitive, until I "see" that my view was inapplicable for the situation mentioned or wrong, it is worthy of scorn. And not everyone see's at the same time, or ever. Maybe in the future I might "get" that you were right, and maybe not.

Your blowin up here makes me doubt the same change of view may happen for you.

The child labor of the 1920's or so, before unions and labor laws were not worthy of pious scorn? I disagree with your opinion.

Then, you call me a jack-ass. You might be right on that too, but by your hair trigger explosion on this post, you wear the same size almost identical mule shoe as I do, so if I have any carrots left, I'll give you some with no hard feelings, after all, birds of a feather forum together.
Your blast here tells me your stall is right next to mine.

The 13 th Warrior

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Preben Frenning

If $2 is more than a regular job in the Filipines, then it's GREAT PAY for getting paid for training as well.

I mean, everyone have heard the saying about giving a man a fishing rod, vs. giving him a fish and feeding him for a day.

Perhaps I am wrong here. Maybe I am. I just fly off on a frenzy when "exploitation" is a possiblity.

$2.00 an hour, if thats what is talked about, is about what it was in the U.S. around the 1960's and early '70's, and if you are talking about similar conditions, work and the like, the U.S. then as in the phillipines now, then you are correct.

If you are talking in relativity, phillipine economy about 40 years behind, but parallel, then you are right.

The 13 th Warrior

[Eric Lorence]

I thought this was a capitalists forum?

What happened to "making money"?

It may be hard for us "First Worlders" to imagine...

But $2US per hour is good money to a VAST MAJORITY of the global population.

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Eric Lorence

But $2US per hour is good money to a VAST MAJORITY of the global population.

In this case , inapplicable of what I said might be correct.

So here is my other question.

How bad does it have to get here before outsourcing labor is no longer necessary?

Are most people in schools and colleges in the U.S. training for a job that won't be there or the money they expect won't be there or improve in that industry at anytime in the future?

How many times does a person retrain and start over again.

I can't tell you how many older people I see lately, retirement ages, working jobs that are supposed to be for teens.

So if the old model of what made America's economy no longer applicable, I see no consenses from any leadership of what the new model for success is, except places like this warrior forum.

Get good grades, keep your nose clean, get a good job, work hard on that same job for years, get your 30 year watch, retire on your pension and go fishing , has been outdated for years, I guess.

Yet, why are they still pushing this program in education?

The 13 th Warrior

[sam12six]

Originally Posted by The 13 th Warrior

In this case , inapplicable of what I said might be correct.

So here is my other question.

How bad does it have to get here before outsourcing labor is no longer necessary?

Are most people in schools and colleges in the U.S. training for a job that won't be there or the money they expect won't be there or improve in that industry at anytime in the future?

How many times does a person retrain and start over again.

I can't tell you how many older people I see lately, retirement ages, working jobs that are supposed to be for teens.

So if the old model of what made America's economy no longer applicable, I see no consenses from any leadership of what the new model for success is, except places like this warrior forum.

Get good grades, keep your nose clean, get a good job, work hard on that same job for years, get your 30 year watch, retire on your pension and go fishing , has been outdated for years, I guess.

Yet, why are they still pushing this program in education?

The 13 th Warrior

In this particular observation, you're right. The old school--->Job for life--->retire from that job and live your golden years model doesn't work and hasn't worked for several decades. The fact of the matter is that this IS exploitation. When you get people who's only thought is 'get a job', they will do anything you say to get or keep a job (which is making a fortune for somebody else). This makes it easier for those in control to stay in control.

Now the freelancers we're talking about here are stepping out of that role and working for themselves. Granted, they're still making someone a lot more money than they are costing but they are doing better for themselves than the vast majority of the people around them. Exploitation that's not.

For those saying you should pay more than the people are happy to make, I can only imagine that you must be a pleasure to negotiate with:

I'll sell you this fine vehicle with only 100000 miles on it for $7000 cash.
No!! You'll take $10000 or I'm walking!

[Paul Myers]

13,

And whats wrong with attempting to be pious?

Nope. I go for pompous, not pious. I've always considered it to be in extremely poor taste to try and shove one's religious beliefs down someone else's throat. Regardless of the religion.

Calling for the search of a happy medium or middle ground "pseudo-rationality-bull droppings " only expresses your opinion of this strategy, which appears to be ridiculous in your eyes, is unworthy of mention.

Bullpuckey.

You weren't suggesting someone look for a middle-ground. You were suggesting that anyone who disagreed with your approach (which you call a middle-ground, while ridiculing anyone with perspective) is extreme, and considers trying to find one a waste of time.

Re-read your own posts, with an eye to some self-honesty, and you'll see what I mean.


Paul

[Chris Grable]

Originally Posted by Alice Seba

Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.

Alice... we currently have a very good example of folks following your, very well intentioned, train of thought.... The end result is folks in an auto manufacturing job making an average of $78.00 per hour to do something that requires only a modicum of knowledge, skills or abilities. 20 or so years of prosperity is about to come crasing down and there might not be any way to stop it.

Inflation occurs in both wages and salary...They are inter-related and equally bad. The only thing worse than high inflation is high inflation that happens rapidly.

[adamv]

Wow! I'm shocked to see that this thread is still going. The view points expressed on the first page were repeated over and over. How many times can we all say the exact same thing? With a few exceptions, this whole thread is 150 posts that could have easily been done in 15. It must be because people are commenting without reading the other comments first. What other reason is there for so many people saying the exact same thing?

"It's exploitation"
"It's two people freely coming to an agreement"
"$2 = $15-$20 in the Philipines"

There, I think those three lines just covered the same as about 80 or 90 posts here.

[redicelander]

I know many Filipinos. I used to date a hot Filipina ex-actress (she starred in a soap for a year there and yes, this is completely irrelevant). I know that Philippines has had a poor economy for some time now, and that is why Filipinos are becoming like the Chinese in that you can find them anywhere in the world as they seek greener pastures. It is a new diaspora but for Filipinos. Anyway, $2 an hour is not so bad for them. You have to take into account cost of living which is much lower in their country. It's akin to paying minimum wage as the GDP in Philippines is less than $4000 a year and working at $2 an hour for a 40 hour work week is a bit more than $4000 a year. So, knowing that, is it unethical? I don't think so. Just smart. Certainly not generous and very cheap and thrifty, but not unethical.

[adamv]

Originally Posted by redicelander

I know many Filipinos. I used to date a hot Filipina ex-actress (she starred in a soap for a year there and yes, this is completely irrelevant). I know that Philippines has had a poor economy for some time now, and that is why Filipinos are becoming like the Chinese in that you can find them anywhere in the world as they seek greener pastures. It is a new diaspora but for Filipinos. Anyway, $2 an hour is not so bad for them. You have to take into account cost of living which is much lower in their country. It's akin to paying minimum wage as the GDP in Philippines is less than $4000 a year and working at $2 an hour for a 40 hour work week is a bit more than $4000 a year. So, knowing that, is it unethical? I don't think so. Just smart. Certainly not generous and very cheap and thrifty, but not unethical.

You reiterated a point that has already made countless times in this thread, but if you just wanted to brag about dating a hot Filipina actress I can respect that.

[gareth]

Lets say you are a newbie and want to outsource.

You need articles, press releases, help with sites, video uploading etc.

To get anywhere in a hurry you need more than one assistant. So if you are still working your self for say $20 per hour and hire 5 people that leaves you with a meager $10 per hour to live on while you build your business.

Are you gunna have a problem with paying $2 per hour looking at it this way ?

[The 13th Warrior]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

13,Nope. I go for pompous, not pious. I've always considered it to be in extremely poor taste to try and shove one's religious beliefs down someone else's throat. Regardless of the religion.Bullpuckey.

Pious in the sense of attaining a higher level of virtue, whether failing or succeeding. Your statement,"I'VE ALWAYS considered it..." portends you latched on to the religious meaning,as though there is none other definition or use of that word. Stating my view is not shoving it down anyone's throat. Seems you are judging in your perception and perspective and are quick to cut someone to the knees by your "bullpuckey" stance...you are doing what you accused me of, judge , jury and executioner by your standards......Bullpuckey indeed.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

You weren't suggesting someone look for a middle-ground. You were suggesting that anyone who disagreed with your approach (which you call a middle-ground, while ridiculing anyone with perspective) is extreme, and considers trying to find one a waste of time.

Re-read your own posts, with an eye to some self-honesty, and you'll see what I mean.

Me-thinks you need to re-read my post, and try not to look for secret meanings. It was in response to someone else's post that I ascertained, rightly or wrongly, that he was using as an example "either" "or" philosophy with no other possible grey areas.

I maintained stating my opinion, and suggested nor implyed that disagreeing with my opinion
is anything other than your choice of belief. I ridiculed no one , personally, thats your read.

You have an opinion about my opinion, and I yours. So what? No forums, no opinion, someone will always disagree.

Now, you want to drop the Hammer and Sickle of totalitarianism on what you percieve my opinion to be , with extreme prejudice and malice by the terms, "bullpuckey" and the like, doing that which you are accusing me of.

You said it yourself, you go for pompous. Pompous reflects the negative characteristics and misuse of ego. No one uses that word to reflect good. You say its good for you. So you are stating who you are and your attitude.

You are ready to shoot first and ask questions later, come to snap judgements, reading into things as a direct attack on you or a person, I think you need to re-read and seriously do some intense self-honesty on yourself, though the way you snap and proudly claim and posses the word pompous, that would be impercievable. Ready to fire.....you percieve yourself and your attack as a pious defender.

I can garner nowhere in your tone of postings that you may even consider any possibility , even playing the devils avocate ,that you are incorrect. EXACTLY what you accussed me of. That is not healthy at all along with a vigilante approach to others views you do not agree with.

Knocking me off a percieved soap box, so you can stand on it. Plenty of hypocracy to go around.

Your kangaroo court style, fire and pitchfork mob like rush trial and snap sentencing of my post and ready to be a prosecuter without any considering the defense side , ready to convict and execute speaks more to who you are.....you are implementing what you accuse me of while you type.

The 13 th Warrior

[Paul Myers]

Chris,

The end result is folks in an auto manufacturing job making an average of $78.00 per hour

Gong! Bad Chris. No biscuit.

The average hourly wage of a worker at an auto plant owned by the Big 3 is $28. Not $78, or the $70 that Sorkin claimed in the Times, or any of the other ridiculous numbers being quoted by the brain-free media.

That number was waved into existence by Chrysler, when it totaled the wages, benefits, government-required labor-associated costs, and the costs of pensions and health benefits of all current and retired employees, and dividing it by the number of hours worked.


Paul

[Chris Lockwood]

I'll try to say something that hasn't been said in this thread.

If I travel to one of these poor countries and the hotel charges $10 per night and the restaurant charges $3 for a steak dinner, am I exploiting the owners of those businesses by paying their stated prices?

Or are low prices only "bad" when they are for labor?

[Chris Grable]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Chris,Gong! Bad Chris. No biscuit.

The average hourly wage of a worker at an auto plant owned by the Big 3 is $28. Not $78, or the $70 that Sorkin claimed in the Times, or any of the other ridiculous numbers being quoted by the brain-free media.

That number was waved into existence by Chrysler, when it totaled the wages, benefits, government-required labor-associated costs, and the costs of pensions and health benefits of all current and retired employees, and dividing it by the number of hours worked.


Paul

I hope you are right Paul!!! I tried to research it ... but all Google will give me is a bunch of crap and nothing that is even remotely authoritative... at least not that I could find in 3 minutes of exhaustive searching <snarky grin>... In either case, I stand by my point. Paying high salaries... just be cause you can.... has limited short term benefits and many ill effects longterm.

[Preben Frenning]

Oh please.
$2 an hour is a lot to MANY people in parts of the world.
If you can have them work 2 hours less than they use to, and make almost twice the amount of money, then it's great.

And if you think that is too little, then you simple can't outsource to the Filipines, because you have too many ethical dilemmas.
- Since then, paying them $4 would not be fair either, because they would make way more than their friends and family, simply out of luck, and not skill.

- Preben

[Mari_Quint]

This is the reality of globalization i.e. access to cheap labor, skilled labor elsewhere, outsourcing, etc. As Thomas Friedman puts it, The World is Flat.

[The Launch Manager]

Here in Costa Rica $2 hour is the norm. A
ton of folks from nicaragua come here
because that's a lot more then they could
ever make back in their own country.

Then I heard from a buddy in Saudi Arabia
that he even has a water boy who brings
water to folks in the office...his only real
job...and he gets like $2 a day...and he
is happy with that...because at least he
has a job...and many folks from where
he is from don't.

It's all relative...

Which is my point

[Paul Myers]

Chris,

I need to correct myself. $28/hr is the average base wage. (I make that mistake often in this particular discussion, and end up correcting it.) When you add in overtime and the like, it comes out to closer to $39/hr.

Still a long way from the $70-$80 bandied about in the press lately, but it's important to be as accurate as possible when talking about numbers.

Paying high salaries... just because you can.... has limited short term benefits and many ill effects longterm.

I tend to agree with that, as stated.

There are other reasons to pay more, of course. For example, if you get someone who is especially good and you want to keep them working for you, paying them more than the market rate is one excellent way to make that happen.


Paul

[davezan]

Originally Posted by karensg

in the bible it says: Torah teaches that “[t]he wages of a laborer shall not remain with you until morning” (Leviticus 19:13) and “[y]ou shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow Israelite or a stranger in one of the communities of your land” (Deuteronomy 24:14-15).

Well, if one is going to quote a portion from the Bible, how about the parable
of the vineyard workers? That had a different intended meaning, though.

IMHO, this thread ought to be locked.