Is this ethical?! This guy is paying his outsources <$2/HOUR!!!

[Nicholas Ho]

Check this out : 300,000 could lose jobs in Philippines - The China Post

So is this a goldmine? You bet!

[Preben Frenning]

OMG! IM outsourcing suddenly became charity!
Now the danger lies in people taking advantage of this =(

Remember to always treat your employees with respect, and don't abuse crisis' like this!

Still, you can take advantage of it by hiring qualified workers ;o)

[johnjonas]

My guess is that as people in the US realize how smart, loyal, educated, and hard working the Filipino people are, they'll be just fine.

Just an update (Yeah, I'm the guy this thread was about), I have 6 people in the Philippines who work full-time for me. I pay them between $100 - $550/month for the full-time work.

They're all super happy.

Best thing that ever happened to my business.

John Jonas

[ardnutt]

I wonder if all the people who seem to be playing the "ethical" card are sat at their PC right now, safe in the knowledge that the clothes on their back, the shoes on their feet and the coffee they're slurping was all produced by people earning an "acceptable" minimum wage.

I take it you all know the source of the above items I mention?

I wonder....

[YseUp]

Pretty soon (2 or 3 years from now) companies will be outsourcing their work to the US as well, so they'll get first hand experience whether it's ethical or not.

[YseUp]

Originally Posted by GoranCro

I'm from Croatia and I would consider it to be a 2nd world country. People don't make very much at all compared to the US. of course there are exceptions. last time I was there I saw Ferrari's and Mercedes all over the place yet I turn my head and see people driving the 45 Yugo still.

It's not unethical in my opinion. You're helping that person out, his/her family, and in the end both of you benefit from it.

My only question is where one can find such cheap work?

Are you sure about this? Yes there are lots of super rich people driving ferrari's but there are also many poor people.

Money isn't everything, I think the average quality of life in Croatia is much better than that of the US IMO. And your women are much better as well!

The US isn't like they show on TV or in the movies you know... far from it.

[Traffic-Bug]

It is not exploitation. Theya re willing to work so they work. Free markets, capitalism wins. i also want to say that this guy has posted in that web page: 'Why outsourcing to India is a terrible idea " I suspect he is a filipino himself and cant stand competition from India. I have used Indian outsourcing and I have to say they are better than Philippines or Pakistan at the same or lower rates. many people cant stand Indian outsourcing success so they post things like this

[Mark Dulisse]

It is always beneficial to approach the person for $2 a hour, and tell them your going to give them what they are really worth to you, and give them $20 a hour.

To me, it is simply exploitation of those not as fortunate. Period.

Yes, they are doing it to feed their family. Why not give them $20 a hour so they can actually buy their kids a bicycle too.

[Adam Kenzington]

I am a fan of John Jonas, and I own the Replace Myself program he produces.

For those of you who think these Filipino workers are being exploited, go to:

www.bestjobs.ph

and view the resumes that these job seekers have posted. These are college graduates, with 2-4 years experience in their chosen field, that have named the salary price that they want for doing your work.

They are looking for full-time employment...8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and they are charging, on average, $350 - $400 per month. This is what they are asking, not the slave wages that some unethical capitalist pig is forcing them to take.

$350 - $400 per month, in the Philippines, is a good living wage.

I have a friend in India that I Skype with daily. When I complained that my elect bill was $489.51 this month, he was shocked (I was shocked, too!), and told me that both of his parents (professionals) make less than that in a month, and he (a young man, just a few years in the job market) makes $225/mo.

Yet, they live very comfortably. Granted, you would starve, here in the states, on $2/hr., but the cost of living in these other countries is such that $2/hr is a damn good wage, that they are happy to get.

They get other perks. It is customary, in the Philippines, to pay your worker a bonus, once they have been in your employ for 1 year... something they call "the 13th month". It's a bonus the equalavant of 1 month's wages. (Their version of the Christmas bonus) This is expected of you, as an employer. Seems fair to me.

These folks are wanting this work, they do it well, and the unethical part in all this would be to deny them the opportunity, because you don't want to exploit them.

[YseUp]

Originally Posted by Mark Dulisse

It is always beneficial to approach the person for $2 a hour, and tell them your going to give them what they are really worth to you, and give them $20 a hour.

To me, it is simply exploitation of those not as fortunate. Period.

Yes, they are doing it to feed their family. Why not give them $20 a hour so they can actually buy their kids a bicycle too.

Dude, I know you're coming from a good place but what your proposing is not a good idea.

I've visited 3rd world countries, India, Cambodia etc. And I always see 'rich' westerners feeling sorry for locals (especially kids) and give them money. A couple of dollars is not much to you and to them it's a fortune.

Problem is your causing inflation of local prices for goods by overpaying compared to the rest of the market. That's why 'rich' westerners should haggle with local shops and not pay too much more (a little bit is ok) for local services and goods because it hurts the local people more than you realise.

[Scott Burton]

I do not wish to point any accusatory fingers at anyone, but here are some numbers pulled from the CIA WOrld Fact Book (theoretically a reliable source of information) for comparison.

GDP Per Capita (Purchasing Power Parity) annual by country / Unemployment Rate
Philippines $3,400 / 7.4%
China $6,100 / 4%-9% (officially 4%, may be as high as 9% in rural areas)
India $2,900 / 6.8%

Now using the standard formula commonly applied (at least in the USA) of 2000 working hours per year, times the rate per hour of $2, this would be a $4,000 per year job. Which is in excess of the Gross Domestic Product (according to the PPP formula) divided by the population, in 2 of these three countries, and is about 2/3 of the same value in the third of these countries.

Compared against the USA where the same figure is $48,000.

[TLCarroll]

I'm a career nurse here in the US for nearly 30 years.

It is very common for nurses to work double shifts. Period.

Nurses are understaffed and overworked everywhere and there is a huge nursing shortage in the US.

Technicalities aside, it most certainly does go on everywhere.

Also, if nurses refuse to work when they are "mandated", facilities make your life a misery by putting you in areas that are worse than your normal work area.

I work in a private nursing environment for a nursing agency and am near retirement, but I have personally experienced these staffing problems. It is common and while the unions might help LPNs, if you are an RN like I am you're usually considered management and exempt from the union rules. Some places won't even pay overtime wages because you are considered flat rate due to being in management.

Unfair, but true.

The only good thing is that working in a facility means you'll have benefits like insurance and a pension. Working through a nursing agency your work schedule and workload is better but they don't offer paid benefits. You have to pay out of your own pocket. Which isn't a problem for many nurses whose spouse has benefits at thier jobs, but if you're single you're screwed.

Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois

Technically, they are - but laws are not without loopholes.

Many working nurses have been literally suspended after refusing to work double/triple shifts, nothing any union could do about it.

Whenever a case gets brought to court, the ruling goes in favor of the state and the "well-being and protection of the population" due to a lack of personnel to operate the facilities and provide adequate treatment to the people. Sometimes they will also throw in the fact that, by law, you are expected to provide assistance to anyone in need, unless your involvement would put either you, or the other person, at risk. Being trained to work in such a facility where people's lives can be on the line, they can give any hospital worker a hard time for not complying when asked to work double or triple shifts due to "staff shortage". Remember, those are public institutions here, funded by the government, with tax payer's money.

Of course .... you are not FORCED .... let's just say ... Strongly encouraged? If you're not happy with it, you can always find another job ...

No wonder people straight out of nursing school apply to work in private health clinics here - they get paid up to 3 times the salary, and don't have to deal with those issues. Which in the end, only contributes to making the public health system even worse ...

[Sandi Valentine]

I worked in mental health. We had mandation, and I wasn't even a nurse. If I was needed to work overtime at the last minute, and left because I had children at home with no care, I could be written up or terminated for abandoning patients. It was even worse for the nurses.

It's a real problem, even in the US

I don't work in mental health anymore

[AlanS2323]

I have no idea, because I have no idea what $2 buys in whatever country the outsources are working in. Maybe $2 is a lot of money where they are. What would be ethical? Paying US minimum wage? In a lot of places around the world, paying US minimum wage would make a person relatively rich.

In any event, given my own experience with outsources, you're probably not getting good help for $2/hour.

[Wah Bhatti]

in most contries its like £1 will be what they buy in ther local currencey so waht you buy for £ or $ at home they do the same its just the exchange rate that helps us guys out

then ther is the underprivilisation and just a mass of people who need your $ as they live on that per day

"how smart, loyal, educated, and hard working the Filipino people are, they'll be just fine"


when you be come smart and loyal and true im sure live will work for you


ps any spelling courses gouing our shall i out sourse that to

[Nevada Gal]

What's ethical is paying people for their work; if someone wants to work or $2 then that's okay by me. $2 may hardly buy a coffee where I live but in some cases it's a lot of money.

I have some friends who live in Thailand. They live like kings on hardly any money. They have full time staff, cooks, maids - the whole she-bang. The reason they have all this is their money buys a lot more stuff. The people who work for them are happy to have jobs, consistent income and money in their pockets.

[TheAge]

I cannot see how this is unethical at all.

As long as a person agrees to work through their own free will, and they're not being forced or being mislead, then even if they were being paid $0.02 it would still not be unethical.

If there were government restrictions on these types of fees being paid, employers would find other solutions, and many that could work for $2/hr would instead be unemployed and making nothing.

Not only is a free market ethical, it is also practical.

- Adrian

[Daisuke]

ive gone to the philippines every summdr for the last couple of years and two dollars an hour isnt that bbad. chinese sweatshops pay less. and in case you havent heard of 3rd world countries...

and theres no such thing as a 2nd world country lol

[pj413]

Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman

$2.00 to you might be nothing more than a candy bar and a soda. To someone else it might be a way to feed their family. In parts of some countries $2.00 an hour is actually a lot of money.

Point well taken

[dondada1]

Originally Posted by AndyCamden

I personally think is unethical. Some will think differently. The fact of the matter is that people will work for that much.

I have been to china four time in my life matter a fact I started a company out there four years ago. $2 and hour USD is good for them if you paid them $2 in there own money that ripping them off and that is unethical

[Karen Blundell]

well, I feel this has to be said. Who are we to judge? I mean really, why don't people just mind their own business? You know we'd have way less wars that way.

Here's I feel about outsourcing, this is just my opinion, though: there are enough locally unemployed young geniuses who would gladly work at home for minimum wage, because I believe there are enough clients out there who will pay my hourly fee so that I would be able to pay someone to assist me here. I have nothing against helping other countries. Too often though, those closest to us are neglected in the process.

In the end, "to each his own"...

[Kezz]

My point of view on this is pretty simple:

1 > It's not the wrong thing to do to pay someone $2 an hour if that's what you can afford to pay.

2 > If you can afford to pay them more instead of hoarding everything to yourself, that would be the right thing to do.

Before I started working for myself it always drove me nuts to see the "boss" arrive last, leave first, do less work than everyone else and never hand out a raise when the business profit grew off the backs of everyone else's hard work.

If you have the opportunity to make someone's dreams come true, allow them to lead the dream lifestyle and provide for their family in a way they never thought possible, simply by paying them an amount that you probably won't even notice is gone, why on earth wouldn't you??

[avandrunen]

So, if a person can afford to pay more they should.
By that logic, if at one time you paid 2 dollars for a chocolate bar at one store that is the price you should pay always as this is obviously the price you can afford to pay.

As far as the whole ethical, non-ethical issue, can I just ask why it is so difficult for your average North American to step outside the over privileged boxes we all live in and realize that there is a whole big world out there that..oh my God..is different than ours and runs on different rules..I know..I know...how dare they but what can you do.

As far as the idea of paying well above a countries average wage and doing the people a favor and slingshot them into wealth, please read up on some basic socioeconomics before you continue that argument.

Well, lets see what that stirs up.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by doop

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

Think of it this way.

If anyone would pay them more than $2 an hour, they would work for that guy instead.

But they don't, because $2 an hour is the best they've been offered.

Why should they be paid more? They'll take this much. What's wrong with it? Obviously they think it's enough.

[ikan_sith]

It is interesting that people in IM are always bringing up this issues of ethics when we are practicing one of the last capitalist opportunities available to common people. Part of capitalism is exploitation? Isn't this why we want to do this, to free ourselves and our families from being exploited?
Remeber this when you are deciding if you should give away your techniques or offer a WSO!

[Scott Ames]

I could get a job in the US paying $2.13 an hour right now in the US, of course that is one that also gives tips. I choose not to do that however but I know many that do.

A salary of $500,000 a year would be just right for me. I think I need to lobby the government to make that the min wage.

It's also not fair that a marketer could create a product and have it flop. All that money paid to out sourcing and marketing wasted. Anyone that creates a product should have a guaranteed sum paid to cover all costs.


Sarcasm if you didn't know. :P

[UKTim29]

Originally Posted by doop

I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

Replace Myself | HomePage

The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

Yeah but you're comparing it to the wage in the country you live in!!!!!!!

Elsewhere wages will be a lot lower. They may well be getting a very good deal!

I thought it was obvious knowing this!!!!

[Joel Gray]

In the Phillipines that is an acceptable rate of pay and may be the only way someone can feed their familiy. In addition that rate of pay per hour over there actually allows them to make a pretty decent living and considering that to get the same work done in the U.S. it would cost you 10 or 20 times that amount it seems that this is a good thing for us IMers, and Mr. Jonas also offers a monthly membership where he will provide you with training videos to help train your new $2 per hour employees which should help you make more money and then you will be in postion to increase the hourly rate of pay thus helping your employees have an even better lifestyle.

Joel

[Mark_w]

$2 per hour is reasonable in the Philippines. Many people there live on less than $2 per DAY.

Ethics are down to the individual to accept or reject based on their own views. So much of IM and sales could be termed as manipulative, just like $2 per day. But the other name for this is Capitalism.

[xxxJamesxxx]

All I can say is thanks for the link

[grandstar]

I'm from the third world and in my city the standard cost of a haircut is $1.

$2 is quite a lot of money here.

Many here would jump at it

[Damien Roche]

Personally, I find it sickening. As I do child slavery in china and elsewhere. No different and I'd rather be no part of it.

..and $2 can be well enough in places like that - but so what? Why not $5/hour or $10/hour. Because you won't make as much money??? sad pathetic selfish people.

[MJ Sterling]

Hey if they are happy to accept that level of pay then I'm smart enough to give it to them!

That's my thoughts on the subject anyway.

Everyone sets their own rates, if they weren't happy with it, they would charge more.

[Russell Turner]

I thought that this was called free market capitalism.

[Bertil Jenner]

Paris Hilton and her Billionaire friends probably think that the $30 per hour you earn is unethical.

Wealth and income are all relative.

Bertil J

[FaJeeb]

I used to live in China, and I had about 20 Chinese employees. Two managers, and 18 workers who made $1.00 an hour which is almost twice as much as they would have made working in a factory. My employees essentially sat there for 12 hours (they chose to, I offered only 8 hours but they wanted more because the work was easy), and I purchased their food and water and there was always leftovers, offered them a non-cramped place to stay (pretty expensive, luckily this wasn't in a city), and paid all utilities.

This was about six times as much as they would be making working in a factory producing items for Walmart or something.

Hell, some of the people that worked for me had degrees in Engineering.

[theemperor]

I don't think this unethical, and I am usually quite "ethical" about things, e.g. I am anti-ewhoring and most black hat.

The people working for $2/hour may sound poor, but perhaps they live in parts of the world where you don't need $1600/month just to survive (e.g. roof over head, taxes, bills, energy, food).

It is free trade, and it is no less ethical than some poor sod working for $20/hour in an office whilst their boss hires them out for $100/hr to a client.

[WebSolutionKey]

Originally Posted by eireen

Sir,
Im from the philippines, will you be surprised if ill tell you that 1-2$ per hour is quite a big amount for a freelancer? If somebody will pay me $2 per hour while staying at home ill be very happy for that. Telling you this, a regular employee here is paid for 7-8$ for 8 hrs of work. So if that guy is paying $1 per hour ill still go for it,since it is a homebased work and i dont have to spend for my transportation anymore and much more if he'll pay me 2$ per hour. Ive been doing captcha projects from india, i have a team of 20 people and to tell you this our client was paying us less than a dollar for every 1000 coded captcha. But still there are people here that are willing to do the job than doing nothing at all. Now can we call this exploitation? and sometimes you have to stay awake for 8 hours to make 1000 captcha if youre in evening shift. But that only shows that we are hardworking people. And any work will do. As long as it's legal.

Working out 1000 captcha codes just for mere $1 is too wierd
I'm really surprised that you do works for such a low price. Do you know SEO works? If so there are lots of warriors in this forum who can help you out with some good deals. PM me if you are interested

[YanKirby]

Alright. I respect all the people's sentiments who posted before me.

But if you want to know about it from someone who's spent all 22 years of his life in the Philippines, then listen up.

This will clear out the "Philippines" side of the equation.

An average filipino worker in the national capital region (in metro manila area) has to earn at least Php385.00 a day. This is the minimum daily wage. Using $1=Php46 that adds up to $8.50 per day (8-hour work shift). This figure is for any job outside agriculture.

This is according to the department of labor and employment or DOLE.

If you are employing someone who is not from the NCR, you can pay lower which depends on the location. Basically, if youre hiring someone living in a more economically developed city, you will have to pay higher. BUT, the NCR rates are the highest.

So taking this into account, paying someone $10x30days= $300 a month is an average fee.

This is the range a typical office worker is earning.

If you are hiring someone who's been a writer all his life (Ive been working with a former editor-in-chief to write articles for me ), you have to pay more.

My advise would be to pay $500 as a start once you CONFIRMED. Again I will say this again, once you CONFIRMED and VERIFIED, you have a winner in your agent. And then raise it when youre happy with the outcome youre getting.

To cut all the crap about everyone saying its "human exploitation", by all means, I have to say NO to that.

Well regarding the "Ethical/Non-ethical" side of the equation, I'd have to pass on that one.

I can go on and on and still end on on the same premise. The thing is... what's unethical in your side of the world might not be "as unethical" in some other parts.

Hope this helped everyone.

All the best,

Yan Kirby

[Eric Lorence]

Originally Posted by Daisuke

ive gone to the philippines every summdr for the last couple of years and two dollars an hour isnt that bbad. chinese sweatshops pay less. and in case you havent heard of 3rd world countries...

and theres no such thing as a 2nd world country lol

Actually, the term does exist, and referred more to a nation's politics than national wealth...

The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned or neutral with either capitalism and NATO (which along with its allies represented the First World) or communism and the Soviet Union (which along with its allies represented the Second World).

From Wikipedia.

[thefallsman]

If someone is willing to happily to the work i dont think there's anything wrong with it. If they're being cheated into low wages then yeah its unethical but if not it's just free market

In many places 2 dollars an hour is excellent pay. we just might not be used to hearing of such a low wage because our standard of living is through the roof compared to most of the world.

No one is this thread happens to be someone who gets paid 2 dollars an hour so i'm not sure we have a right to say whether or not it is unjust.

Yeah he's right second world countries are former soviet countries the term has just died out

[Richard HAN]

Personally, as long as there is a willing buyer and willing seller in the deal, then I don't see what is so unethical about paying $2/hour for services provided. Remember! You think the rate is too low because probably where you come from, it's inconceivable for someone to work for such paltry rate. But, in countries like India or Philippines, $2/hour could be a princely amount to them. It's all relative to the cost of living.

[rkbehera1]

Internet is a free world and we are all leaving in a civilized and free society. Everybody has his/her right to offer someone he/she knows. It is up to you to accept or not. But I don't think paying 1 to 2 USD per hour for "IM Lifestyle" is too bad or unethical.

[moneyblogger1]

If the guy is willing to only accept $2 an hour then its up to him.

[cscarpero]

Average income in the ph for a college graduate is $7 A DAY. Not per hour, per DAY. Now also remember the cost of living is lower there too. Everything is relative.

[Eric Lorence]

And some of the top entry level jobs in the US for college grads pay $0 ...

Such as certain internships.

[Hesaidblissfully]

Originally Posted by Damien Roche

Personally, I find it sickening. As I do child slavery in china and elsewhere. No different and I'd rather be no part of it.

..and $2 can be well enough in places like that - but so what? Why not $5/hour or $10/hour. Because you won't make as much money??? sad pathetic selfish people.

Saying that someone voluntarily choosing to sit in the comfort of their own home on a computer in exchange for significantly more than the living wage in that country is "no different" than slavery does a disservice to legitimate forms of human rights abuses going on in the world today, not to mention historical instances of slavery.

There's a difference between voluntarily CHOOSING to work, and being FORCED to do work, often under threat of physical violence if you refuse to comply.

Have you ever actually MET a child slave before? Try taking one of them aside and telling them "Hey, see that guy over there writing articles on the computer in that air-conditioned internet cafe? Yeah, he has it just as bad as you. Sure, he gets to choose which tasks he wants to do, and he can stop working any time he wants, and he won't get beat if he refuses to do something, and he gets paid enough to eat, pay his bills and rent, etc...but he's a slave too, just like you. It's no different".

I think the child slave would beg to differ.

From a business perspective, it makes sense to pay qualified employees/outsourcees well because a happy employee is more likely to stick around. But to say that someone is morally wrong because they don't feel the need to pay them 3 or 4 times the minumum wage in that country is misguided.

I can choose to pay you $2 per hour, and you can choose to turn that down and look elsewhere.

[Daniel E Taylor]

I was trying to find a nice and respectful way to say this,

But if you think it's in any way unethical and exploitative
because you are comparing the wage to the cost of living in
America...

Then you are a dumbass...



Daniel

[The GoTo Team]

They took the money because they thought it was fair. That is technically completely fair.

But the man knows how much that work is worth, and should be paying his workers the appropriate price. To do otherwise is demeaning to his business.

[The GoTo Team]

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

I was trying to find a nice and respectful way to say this,

But if you think it's in any way unethical and exploitative
because you are comparing the wage to the cost of living in
America...

Then you are a dumbass...



Daniel

For them they accepted the money so its completely fair, they agreed to work for that wage.