I asked for a refund ... Guess what happened

15 years ago

It sucks that pay pal dont allow this for digital products. I got scammed 290$ on dp for a site and they wouldnt get my money back even though I never received the site..

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Norma Holt

15 years ago

Sympathy Kirk, unfortunately digital products are hard to assess regarding the quality etc. eBay has virtually cut out their sales for this reason and I don't think it will be long before Paypal follows suit.

Recently PP did the right thing and refunded money on a service that was a fraud. They are good in some things but not others. I prefer to use them, however, because over the years I have not had a complaint about them.

Regarding the malware issue. Are you sure the product is corrupted. I bought an e-book off Stone Evans, the Plug in Profit guy, that came up with a virus warning. It did not have a virus and hundreds of warriors got it too.

Hope this helps

Norma

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Kim Standerline 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Norma Holt

don't think it will be long before Paypal follows suit.
Norma

Doubt it Norma, Paypal makes far too much out of digital products to think of refusing them. In fact I'd hazard a guess that digital products forms a large part of their income

Kim
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Mike Hill

15 years ago

Yes this is normal with PayPal for digital downloads because there is no easy way PayPal can verify if you really did not get the product that was sold.

Also, if PayPal were to automatically send a refund (like ClickBank) then it would get abused big time. What would be a nice service is if PayPal had a digital product download/secure service and actually had records of when a person downloaded the product and if they wanted a refund then the program would cease to work.

Mike Hill

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Marcus Paul

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Yes this is normal with PayPal for digital downloads because there is no easy way PayPal can verify if you really did not get the product that was sold.

Also, if PayPal were to automatically send a refund (like ClickBank) then it would get abused big time. What would be a nice service is if PayPal had a digital product download/secure service and actually had records of when a person downloaded the product and if they wanted a refund then the program would cease to work.

Mike Hill

Sounds like the person who makes that service could be a Clickbank killer. Imagine, a service that provides the affiliate tracking, merchant processing, secure download, and refund/lockout service. They would quickly become my choice.....

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ECS Dave

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kirk Ward

(6) The vendor responded through PayPal that he had delivered the product. After that I received a download link.

This is all you needed to get a refund. If you really want your $6.97 back,
call PayPal up on the phone, and explain everything up to this part of it.

I'd venture a guess that you'll get your money back fairly quickly.

Be Well!
ECS Dave

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Lambert Klein 15 years ago

You wouldn't think the guy would want to lose his reputation over 7 dollars....
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- NewbiesDiary 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by lklein
  
  You wouldn't think the guy would want to lose his reputation over 7 dollars....
  
  he's not really hurting his reputation, cause no-one has told us his name or product.
  
  As a vendor if you have a non-delivery dispute -all you need to do is to re-deliver the product in the paypal dispute response area. Paypal can then see you've delivered the product and the dispute is won for the vendor & lost for the buyer. Paypal don't really care if the product is faulty or not - that would be a different claim and one you wont win.
  
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affirm758

15 years ago

don't mess around with paypal, they are a pain.

charge back on your credit card.

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GeorgR.

15 years ago

WHAT????

I think you are kidding.

As a digital product SELLER i *constantly* "lose" disputes since as a VENDOR i don't have "seller protection" (selling digital products). My CUSTOMERS always get THEIR refund from paypal.

This is the first time i heard that a customer was refused a refund because of the same reason!

I was under the assumption that any customer has "freedom to pull out ANY reason for refund out of their ***", and PayPal always decides/decided in THEIR favor!

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

As a seller, I almost always win disputes on digital products. The trick is to document through PayPals system that the product was a digital product and that the customer did recieve the product.

This is where the power of membership and digital security scripts come into play. Using such scripts you can create a terms of service that your customers have to agree to before purchase. Under US law this is a requirement for selling products anyway.

If you can show that your customer agreed to your terms before purchase, and that they have a download area with a username and password of their choosing then they can't say they didn't recieve the product.

Here is the thing to remember. PayPal only guarentees the buyer that they will recieve the product. They will always refund if the customer can prove they didn't recieve the product. But, if you can prove the customer did recieve it, and state clearly that it is a digital product they PayPal will almost always side with the seller. PayPal does not have a protection policy that covers the condition of a product, only that you recieve something for your money.

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

WHAT????

I think you are kidding.

As a digital product SELLER i *constantly* "lose" disputes since as a VENDOR i don't have "seller protection" (selling digital products). My CUSTOMERS always get THEIR refund from paypal.

This is the first time i heard that a customer was refused a refund because of the same reason!

I was under the assumption that any customer has "freedom to pull out ANY reason for refund out of their ***", and PayPal always decides/decided in THEIR favor!

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adamv 15 years ago

I was the buyer on the losing end of a dispute one time as well. The product had a free trial version with limited features and to upgrade to the full version was $47.

I paid the $47 but the password they sent me did not work. I sent half a dozen emails to the seller with no response. It wasn't until I opened a dispute with Paypal that I got a response from the seller with some lame advice "put your password in to access the full version" DUH! I did that and it does not work. Eventually the dispute was closed and I never received the product or my refund.

I'm very careful about who I purchace from now which is one reason I like the WSO section of this forum, you can usually get some honest reviews. If I feel I've been screwed I make a note never to buy from that seller again.
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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

But, if you can prove the customer did recieve it, and state clearly that it is a digital product they PayPal will almost always side with the seller. PayPal does not have a protection policy that covers the condition of a product, only that you recieve something for your money.

What sort of proof do you give PayPal in this situation? Do you just copy and paste into the dispute form whatever info your download management script gives you about the buyer?

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

Chris, I explain my payment process to paypal, that the customer must fill out a username and password "before" payment and after payment the customer is automatically logged directly into the members area to get the download.

I also paste any emails I have from the customer, if there are any. Usually, when paypal sees "this is a digital product that was downloaded directly from my website" they will automatically decline to rule on it but I do as much as I possibly can to give proof that the customer has access to the download the second they click the payment button.

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

What sort of proof do you give PayPal in this situation? Do you just copy and paste into the dispute form whatever info your download management script gives you about the buyer?

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Louis Raven

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

WHAT????

I think you are kidding.

As a digital product SELLER i *constantly* "lose" disputes since as a VENDOR i don't have "seller protection" (selling digital products). My CUSTOMERS always get THEIR refund from paypal.

This is the first time i heard that a customer was refused a refund because of the same reason!

I was under the assumption that any customer has "freedom to pull out ANY reason for refund out of their ***", and PayPal always decides/decided in THEIR favor!

Really? as long as it was delivered they (buyer) haven't a leg to stand on, ALAS when it comes to Paypal.

Louis

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Sheryl Polomka

15 years ago

I don't think Paypal know what they are doing sometimes. I have filed a claim on a digital product and was told the same thing, and yet I have had someone file a claim against something they have bought from me and Paypal has given them a refund - go figure!

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Joe Russell

15 years ago

I can't understand why someone would want to hurt their business over a $7 refund. Maybe if they realized that a by giving a prompt and hassle free refund that they could actually gain a loyal subscriber and a future customer for their other products or promotions they would think twice.

Joe Russell

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Shafiq Kamal 15 years ago

The same was with me. I bought an autoresponder service with money back guarantee. After 1/2 hours of buying I have seen that there were lack of certain features. I ask the provider to back my money. He didn't respond. I opened dispute, but he didn't respond. Later I escalate it to paypal but paypal did the same what was done with you.

Paypal sucks. They are doing monopoly business. We need competitor in this market. May be in future Google Checkout will be our solution.
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Shafiq Kamal

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Joe Russell

I can't understand why someone would want to hurt their business over a $7 refund. Maybe if they realized that a by giving a prompt and hassle free refund that they could actually gain a loyal subscriber and a future customer for their other products or promotions they would think twice.

Joe Russell

Because they don't know business well. And these types people finally fail even if they gain some temporary benefits.

Actually, those who can satisfy customer are the real businessmen. I have purchased from many ebay sellers, but remembered only 2 sellers whom made me satisfied. I have purchased from them multiple times and will purchase again and again in future. Because they not only delivered what they promised but also over delivered. And it is over exciting. How will I be unsatisfied? There is no reason to be unsatisfied.

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Kirk Ward

15 years ago

Thanks for all the feedback.

I guess it sucks Moose Eggs that PayPal has that policy, but reading through the responses about who wins and who loses has given me an idea.

My product was paid for out of my PayPal balance, so I can't charge back on my credit card. In order to be able to do this, and protect myself some in the future, I think I'll open a second account, funded by my credit card, and use it only for purchases. No collections going into it.

Then, when I run into a similar situation, where the vendor does not respond on their own, I skip PayPal completely and ask for a chargeback through my credit card company based on non-delivery or defective merchandise.

Credit card companies are regulated by Federal law, so they have a pretty fair system, and it will cost PayPal $35 plus it will cost the vendor the product cost.

Where did the $35 come from? That is the dispute fee all credit card companies charge vendors (PayPal in this case) when a dispute occurs. It is charged to them whether I win or lose.

cheers

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sjames23 Banned 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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- scraggz 15 years ago
  
  Sadly there are a lot of sellers who don't seem to care whether they lose their 'reputation' over a few measly dollars. They seem to have somehow cracked the traffic thing and have an endless supply of prospects. I should be so lucky!
  I've had a couple of similar experiences, no response from sellers support, lodged with Paypal, seller didn't respond to Paypal, escalated with Paypal, seller still ignored Paypal, timed out with Paypal.
  Paypal wouldn't do anything as it was a non functioning script, I'd received it that was all they cared about. Which is obvious when you look at the subjects for disputes.
  
  Paypal is obviously the place to sell through!!
  
  Stan
  
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Alan Petersen

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kirk Ward

Thanks for all the feedback.

I guess it sucks Moose Eggs that PayPal has that policy, but reading through the responses about who wins and who loses has given me an idea.

My product was paid for out of my PayPal balance, so I can't charge back on my credit card. In order to be able to do this, and protect myself some in the future, I think I'll open a second account, funded by my credit card, and use it only for purchases. No collections going into it.

Then, when I run into a similar situation, where the vendor does not respond on their own, I skip PayPal completely and ask for a chargeback through my credit card company based on non-delivery or defective merchandise.

Credit card companies are regulated by Federal law, so they have a pretty fair system, and it will cost PayPal $35 plus it will cost the vendor the product cost.

Where did the $35 come from? That is the dispute fee all credit card companies charge vendors (PayPal in this case) when a dispute occurs. It is charged to them whether I win or lose.

cheers

Sounds like a good plan. I would still file a dispute with paypal first. Once you get the customary you're SOL since you bought a digital product--then file your charge back. That way you can prove to the CC issuing bank that you did try to resolve the problem with the vendor and Paypal first.

Luckily it was a cheap "hard lesson" learned at $7. I know folks who were burned for a lot more. If the person has shoddy business morals they can easily do what they want since Paypal won't touch it if it's a digital product. I would hope if complaints rack up that Paypal would shut them down.

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naruq 15 years ago

I would purchase with a credit card in the future. You can dispute charges on your credit card
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Jim Stewart

15 years ago

Kirk,

Rather than use a CC to fund the account, you are much safer using a debit card.

If your account gets hacked, and it has happened to me, then on a CC, it will take much longer (and more expensive) before the account gets blocked. That's if you notice it yourself. In most cases, the illegal purchases are not noticed until the statement arrives.

With a Debit card, once the limit is reached, which is usually minimal, any expenses getting put through will 'bounce' and immediately get blocked by PayPal.

If I find something I want to buy and it is through PP and more than my Debit card limit, then I usually drop the vendor a line and ask about CC facilities. If they haven't got any, I usually think twice about the purchase.

Cheers

Jim

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Mark Brock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kirk Ward

Now let me ask you ... I know this makes digital product vendors happy, but does this fill you with confidence in PayPal when you are a buyer?

And, is this a "normal" answer from PayPal?

This whole thing wouldn't even make me happy if I were to sell digital products via PayPal (thankfully I don't just yet)! Seriously, if I were selling my own digital products with PayPal as a payment option I'd want them to deal with this issue as it may detract anyone from buying from me, even if I have nothing but positive feedback and good relationships with all of my previous customers!

If PayPal are going to let those that distribute faulty or poor quality digital products get away with it just because they've sent the item then how do they think it will affect the honest people that use PayPal?

As a buyer I'd be very wary! This would scare me as a seller!

PayPal need to sort this out!

Sorry to hear you lost money Kirk.

Mark

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ebusinesstutor

15 years ago

We do a 30 day money back guarantee on all our products and happily refund on request. And we don't force people to jump through hoops to get it, they just send a support ticket or call our 1-800 number.

What sometimes frosts me as a seller is when people file a PayPal dispute without even contacting me, stating that the payment is "unauthorized."

As if I could somehow charge them without their knowledge or access to their PayPal password...

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Johnny Slater

15 years ago

Unauthorized means that someone else went to your site and used their paypal account to purchase without permission, not that you charged them yourself.

This has become a growing problem lately with people using it just to scam a seller and get a free product but there are some cases where a persons paypal account may have been hacked or someone got ahold of their paypal debt card numbers.

Originally Posted by ebusinesstutor

We do a 30 day money back guarantee on all our products and happily refund on request. And we don't force people to jump through hoops to get it, they just send a support ticket or call our 1-800 number.

What sometimes frosts me as a seller is when people file a PayPal dispute without even contacting me, stating that the payment is "unauthorized."

As if I could somehow charge them without their knowledge or access to their PayPal password...

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mdpinson

15 years ago

I have had that happen to me as well. Forced to purchase the OTO, and discovered malware. After many back and forth got my refund. Beware!
Yeah, must be this whole global warming thing!

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onlinetreason

15 years ago

Paypal is definitely a bitch.I would always use your credit card so you can charge back like a few people it said.

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JavCharles

15 years ago

Well, I guess you just gotta be really careful who you are buying from the next time for digital products or services via Paypal. It's impossible for PP to decide who should win as they can't rectify the quality of the delivered digital product or standard of services from a seller, everyone has different perceptions of quality of a product/services. PP would never test the products for buyers even if buyer claims that seller sent a virus. However, they will investigate on the seller if refunds are overwhelming. Even for tangible items, PP suggests buyers to return the goods to sellers for check before proceeding with refunds.

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Louis Raven

15 years ago

Paypal is similar to goverments. We know there's poverty in the world but as long as some countries are wealthy we don't look to much into it.

They need to find a right balance to ensure we as sellers don't get scammed with freebie seekers and buyers also received what's paid for.

At the moment it seems tilted towards the seller where as their brother eBay is biased in favor of the buyer.

There's complaints at each side.

Sorry to hear that, Kirk. If you have not received the item fit of the description you have other options that are higher than Paypal, you know.

Louis

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Shafiq Kamal 15 years ago

Need appropriate competitor in this market. We hope Google Checkout will fulfill our hope and expectations.
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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

I had to dig this up to say PayPal is schizophrenic.

Seems we have kind of an opposite problem.

Someone who shall rename nameless until they get on the name and shame wall purchased a wso-then instantly filed a paypal dispute for unauthorized transaction before they even had a change to read the thing.

It was my understanding that Paypal didn't honor refund requests for digital products anyway.

I wrote a long response to paypal including proof that he recieved the item, proof of secure download and a link to the wso and my suspicions that he's one of those serial refunders/scammers. It's guys like this why u see your products for free on torrent sites.

He had no answer. He filed no response. He never contacted me or said anything to paypal other than filing the dispute.

And guess what, he got his reversal! lol

And it wasn't about the money it was about being "ripped off" and fighting against who I believe is a scammer.

Guess it depends on which idiot oops, I mean customer service representative you get from paypal that determines the outcome. If we could have traded reps, both outcomes would probably have been opposite.

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adamv

15 years ago

Originally Posted by annoyedgirl

I had to dig this up to say PayPal is schizophrenic.

Seems we have kind of an opposite problem.

Someone who shall rename nameless until they get on the name and shame wall purchased a wso-then instantly filed a paypal dispute for unauthorized transaction before they even had a change to read the thing.

It was my understanding that Paypal didn't honor refund requests for digital products anyway.

I wrote a long response to paypal including proof that he recieved the item, proof of secure download and a link to the wso and my suspicions that he's one of those serial refunders/scammers. It's guys like this why u see your products for free on torrent sites.

He had no answer. He filed no response. He never contacted me or said anything to paypal other than filing the dispute.

And guess what, he got his reversal! lol

And it wasn't about the money it was about being "ripped off" and fighting against who I believe is a scammer.

Guess it depends on which idiot oops, I mean customer service representative you get from paypal that determines the outcome. If we could have traded reps, both outcomes would probably have been opposite.

I think the reason the scammer got away was because he filed a dispute for an unauthorized charge rather than a dispute over the product itself.

When I got screwed as a buyer of a digital product that I could not access (as described in my previous post) I did not claim an unauthorized transaction I filed a dispute over the product, and I lost. It happened like 1 1/2 years ago and I still get pissed off when I think about it.

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innocent07 Banned 15 years ago

"I asked for a refund ... Guess what happened"

^^ When i first read that above title, I thought somthing crazy happened, like a fairy came out of your email box.

Me and my imagination
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valerieSONORA

15 years ago

Originally Posted by adamv

I think the reason the scammer got away was because he filed a dispute for an unauthorized charge rather than a dispute over the product itself.

When I got screwed as a buyer of a digital product that I could not access (as described in my previous post) I did not claim an unauthorized transaction I filed a dispute over the product, and I lost. It happened like 1 1/2 years ago and I still get pissed off when I think about it.

Exactly, the scammers have learned to file unauthorized charge rather than dispute over the product itself. That way they can steal all they want with no hassles.

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I asked for a refund ... Guess what happened

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