Can you REALLY get high caliber content for pennies a word?

by donhx
45 replies
Based upon my decades of experience as a writer, plus my travels to 31 countries, including living 10 years outside the U.S., I think it unlikely that you can hire a high caliber IM content writer for pennies in India, the Philippines or elsewhere.

I know people SAY they can find such writers, but there is a lot of inferior quality writing out there. It is a big part of the litter (along with "spun" articles) that Google wanted to get rid of with their Feb 28 algorithm change.

People in India, the Philippines or other places may know how to put words on paper, but that is not enough. IM people who buy their writing have no idea about what effective writing looks like, so they accept it.

The fact is, effective IM writing is far more than just words on paper--it involves the proper use of idiomatic language and sales psychology of the culture where the product is being sold.

An Indian writer would be great for people writing for Indian people and a Filipino writer is great for Filipino customers, but I think it is counter-productive to hire an Indian or Filipino to write for the American market, for example.

The reason this is a bad business practice is a simple one. There is a whole field of study called "Cross-Cultural Communication", and virtually all offshore writers, and IM people who buy their stuff, are totally ignorant about that. That ignorance costs IM people who purchase "out of culture" writing millions of dollars in lost sales.

Offshore people may say they understand American culture (as an example), but based on my experience, I doubt it. No... I'm not speaking unkindly about people India or the Philippines in any way. I know for sure that as an American writer I could not write effective articles or others sales materials for an Indian or Philippine audience, and wouldn't even try.

People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."
#caliber #content #high #pennies #word
  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
    People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."
    That depends on how many pennies per word, doesn't it?

    While much of your post is accurate MOST of the time, you make entirely too many absolute statements about writing. There are no absolutes.

    I get 5 pennies a word for regular articles - does that mean I'm only writing filler?
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    The fact is, effective IM writing is far more than just words on paper--it involves the proper use of idiomatic language and sales psychology of the culture where the product is being sold.
    You are describing copywriting.

    Not all writing must be copywriting.

    Similarly, not all writing must be of Tina's high quality.

    Some writing serve with the purpose well, even when not being grammar correctish, or having teh proper speling.

    Many people buy articles which they farm over to a VA who "fixes" them for voice and tone. The articles make the VA's life easier, but they aren't published as-is anywhere. And it's quite easy to get a $250 a month VA who can easily "fix" twenty to thirty 500-word articles a week, along with two or three writers who can each deliver ten such articles weekly for about $30. So for $550 a month, you can have a hundred articles on your site at what amounts to about 1.1 cents a word.

    That won't make you an authority. But it can easily populate about a dozen niche blogs, most of which SHOULDN'T seem to be written by a professional.

    It all depends on what you're doing.
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    • Profile picture of the author donhx
      Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

      That depends on how many pennies per word, doesn't it?

      While much of your post is accurate MOST of the time, you make entirely too many absolute statements about writing. There are no absolutes.

      I get 5 pennies a word for regular articles - does that mean I'm only writing filler?
      Tina, I used lots of conditional statements in my post, so that should have made me eligible for a "Get out of jail free" card from the word police.

      I could not disagree with you more that there are "no absolutes." It is my experience that there are many. Even those who might be of another opinion know there is at least one -- "The only absolute truth is that there are no absolutes truths."

      No comment on your price or the quality of your writing. My point was that effective IM writing comes from people who are "in culture," and there can be little debate about that for anyone who understands the nature of cross-cultural communication. I have a Master's degree in Communication, have been making my living as a professional writer for many decades, have visited dozens of countries for extended periods, and have marketing information products since before the Internet existed. I began marketing on the Internet in 1996. No, I'm not a know-it-all for sure, but I have an informed opinion and will stand behind my original observations.


      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      You are describing copywriting.

      Not all writing must be copywriting.

      Similarly, not all writing must be of Tina's high quality.

      Some writing serve with the purpose well, even when not being grammar correctish, or having teh proper speling.

      Many people buy articles which they farm over to a VA who "fixes" them for voice and tone. The articles make the VA's life easier, but they aren't published as-is anywhere. And it's quite easy to get a $250 a month VA who can easily "fix" twenty to thirty 500-word articles a week, along with two or three writers who can each deliver ten such articles weekly for about $30. So for $550 a month, you can have a hundred articles on your site at what amounts to about 1.1 cents a word.

      That won't make you an authority. But it can easily populate about a dozen niche blogs, most of which SHOULDN'T seem to be written by a professional.

      It all depends on what you're doing.

      No, I'm not talking about copy writing at all. Some of those copy writing people get many thousands of dollars per page, not pennies per word. But I think you have hit upon a common misunderstanding with IMers. That is, they see article writing as something different than copy writing. They are the same in most ways. To be effective, every page should convert. IM writing may entertain or inform, but its primarily purpose is to persuade.

      I think you make another good point when you talk about VA doing rewrites. That's an unnecessary expense. Any writer worth his salt knows his or her work needs to be edited and polished before it is released. The time it takes to do decent research, and the time it takes to polish a first draft, makes most effective writing worth more than a few pennies per word.

      As you say, the focus seems to be about how someone can "populate about a dozen niche blogs" not actual writing that has been crafted to inform and persuade. You seem to support the idea that if you get an infinite number of people banging on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them is going to come up with "King Lear," or at least something that could be edited into that. I'm on the other side of that fence.


      Originally Posted by Mike Grant View Post

      Far too many sweeping blanket statements, imo.

      Thank you for injecting some humor into this. You have made a sweeping blanket statement to make your point, and I like that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        Tina, I used lots of conditional statements in my post, so that should have made me eligible for a "Get out of jail free" card from the word police.

        I could not disagree with you more that there are "no absolutes." It is my experience that there are many. Even those who might be of another opinion know there is at least one -- "The only absolute truth is that there are no absolutes truths."

        No comment on your price or the quality of your writing. My point was that effective IM writing comes from people who are "in culture," and there can be little debate about that for anyone who understands the nature of cross-cultural communication. I have a Master's degree in Communication, have been making my living as a professional writer for many decades, have visited dozens of countries for extended periods, and have marketing information products since before the Internet existed. I began marketing on the Internet in 1996. No, I'm not a know-it-all for sure, but I have an informed opinion and will stand behind my original observations.





        No, I'm not talking about copy writing at all. Some of those copy writing people get many thousands of dollars per page, not pennies per word. But I think you have hit upon a common misunderstanding with IMers. That is, they see article writing as something different than copy writing. They are the same in most ways. To be effective, every page should convert. IM writing may entertain or inform, but its primarily purpose is to persuade.

        I think you make another good point when you talk about VA doing rewrites. That's an unnecessary expense. Any writer work his salt knows that his or her work needs to be edited and polished before it is released. The time it takes to do decent research, and the time it takes to polish a first draft, makes most effective writing worth more than a few pennies per word.

        As you say, the focus seems to be about how someone can "populate about a dozen niche blogs" not actual writing that has been crafted to inform and persuade. You seem to support the idea that if you get an infinite number of people banging on an infinite number of typewriters, one of them is going to come up with "King Lear," or at least something that could be edited into that. I'm on the other side of that fence.





        Thank you for injecting some humor into this. You have made a sweeping blanket statement to make your point, and I like that.
        What was a blanket statement? That you have a lot of blanket statements in your post? That in itself is not a blanket statement.
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        • Profile picture of the author donhx
          Originally Posted by Mike Grant View Post

          What was a blanket statement? That you have a lot of blanket statements in your post? That in itself is not a blanket statement.

          Yes, you made a blanket statement. It was not particularized in any way.

          I don't think I made any blanket statements at all. They were all informed opinions based upon many decades of professional experience, and I stand by each one.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
            Originally Posted by donhx View Post

            Yes, you made a blanket statement. It was not particularized in any way.

            I don't think I made any blanket statements at all. They were all informed opinions based upon many decades of professional experience, and I stand by each one.
            People in India, the Philippines or other places may know how to put words on paper, but that is not enough. IM people who buy their writing have no idea about what effective writing looks like, so they accept it.

            There is a whole field of study called "Cross-Cultural Communication", and virtually all offshore writers, and IM people who buy their stuff, are totally ignorant about that.

            "Pennies a word" only buys failure.

            ^After a real quick glance. I'm not the only person who mentioned it, either.
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            • Profile picture of the author inter123
              From what I can see many people from India et al do not charge "pennies" if they produce quality content, they charge similar rates to writers in the US, UK, etc.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        To be effective, every page should convert.
        I don't have time to correct this catastrophic a failure of imagination.
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  • Profile picture of the author healingoasis
    I've never got high caliber content for pennies a word. I've always been disappointed from the people who offer those services.
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  • Profile picture of the author baseball_card
    I find for myself that there is no way for someone else to write better content for my sites than me. Of course, I wouldn't be willing to take the risk of paying someone to do so, but still. It might help the SEO and add content, but overall I would still rather spend my time writing content than SEO in most cases. I guess it just depends on the person, but my advice would be to avoid paying someone to write your content.
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  • Profile picture of the author O0o0O
    Yes, you can get high caliber content for pennies a word. The caliber of content you'll be generating will depend on the business model you have. If you're creating a series of AdSense specialized autoblogs, then you will want search engine friendly content. On the other hand, if you're creating a viral blog with high social interaction and engagement, then you will want to invest in writers who understand the culture of the audience you're targeting. Both business models can yield the same ROI.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Hmm, it's getting interesting. Popcorn anyone?

    (I am such a copycat )
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    Let's get this into perspective, shall we?


    If you write for national and high prestige newspapers/magazines or prestigious website
    then you can expect anywhere between 50c and $1 a word for a 1000 word article.

    Now these articles will need to be pitched and accepted. They must be thoroughly researched, relevant and useful in-and-of-themselves. You can expect to do a lot of work for your money. Time spend pitching and chasing up must be included in your calculation of money earned. (Suppose you spent Xhrs pitching, Yhrs researching and Zhrs writing - you couldn't when you finally get paid claim the money was only for doing Zhrs of work).

    Now smaller magazines, will probably pay 1/2 for the same amount of work - so you can expect 25c to 60c per word for 1000 words.

    Trade magazines
    (where most people will start) will pay even less probably maxing out at 35c per word for 1000 words.

    Smaller magazines (although these can still be prestigious) will pay less still probably around 25c per word for 1000 words.


    **********

    Now these are the top end prices you can expect to get. On the whole you can expect around 50c per word as an experienced freelance writer (writing for magazines). It is of course possible to get less! Many prestigious magazines will pay a lot less especially if they have a big name in a small market (like The New Statesman and Spectator in the UK). You'll also have a problem getting good money for articles in topic areas highly populated by enthusiastic and knowledgeable amateurs willing to write for free.

    I wrote above that the work load is broken down into something like:

    Xhrs - Pitching/chasing up
    Yhrs - Researching
    Zhrs - Writing

    Now most freelance writers will complain that amount of hours spent, from greatest to least is X,Y,Z. That is, you will spend a lot of time chasing up editors. Think of it as similar to comparing the time/work it takes after you have created a website or ebook (getting traffic to your site, finding affiliates, etc.)

    This part of the job, (X), is almost non-existant for, what we'll call article marketing writers. They don't have to contact website owners and pitch ideas for articles. Nor do they have to chase up these owners to find out what has happened to their articles, when they'll get paid, and so on.

    A second thing, related to (X) that article marketing writers don't need to worry about is catching an editor at the right time for a particular pitch. For instance, if an editor has just accepted an article on a very similar topic to yours then he's going to reject yours. Website owners pretty much always want articles on the same topic. I used to get orders for 50-100 articles all on the same topic!

    You won't also find yourself pitching an article that clashes with the interests of the website's main sponser. For instance if I write an article about the benefits of electric cars and pitch it to a magazine that has just landed 8 pages of advertising for some gas-guzzling supercars, my article will be rejected!

    When it comes to hrs of research, (Y), then typically, writing marketing articles, involves less research. There are exceptions to the rule, but if you're writing articles for very prestigious websites then the actual work is very similar to writing for high prestige magazines (and you may as well do that instead).

    One of the main reasons why less research is involved has already been mentioned above. That is, you can use the same piece of research over and over again when writing marketing articles. What, in print journalism would be outrageous self-plagiarism, is perfectly acceptable in article marketing.

    Finally, articles for websites and blogs whose main purpose is to market some other product or service, tend to be less involved and slightly shallower than, for example, a powerful piece of investigative journalism. The upshot being, much less work in terms of research is needed.

    When it comes to writing, (Z), marketing articles tend to be shorter something like 450-750 words as opposed to 1000+. I usually average around 750 in mine. Would it be fair to say 75% of the money for 75% of the writing? Probably not, due to the discussion of X and Y above!


    **********


    I'm going to compare the money earned by a freelance journalist earning around $60,000 per annum. With a freelance article marketer.

    Freelance journalist

    Let's just say, for arguments sake that the time spent working on an article is X+Y+Z (with all of them being equal, for example, 5hrs pitching/chasing, 5hrs researching and 5hrs writing).

    I'm going to take the typical average pay for freelance journalism as 42c per word (for 1000 words). That's 25c being the low and 60c being the high (and taking away the .5 to make the sums easier!)

    So for one article you are paid a total of $420 (or $140 for time spent pitching/chasing up, $140 for time spent researching and $140 for time spent writing).

    Article Marketer

    For article marketing we are going to be spending much less time pitching and chasing - if any time spent at all (I spend none).

    X = $0

    Research is a lot less too. I'm going to be generous and say 1/5 (or 1hr to the journalist's 5hrs).

    Y= $28

    Writing, takes about 1-2 hrs per article - so I'll call it an hour and a half.

    Z= $42

    So that is a total of:

    Total = $70

    Of course, most marketing articles are 500 words rather than 1000, so we'll half it for a grand total of:

    GRAND TOTAL = $35

    However!...

    Marketing articles can use the same piece of research over and over again. So you can not count the money for research more than once! Therefore if 10 articles on the same subject are ordered then the 1st article would be $35 with the subsequent 9 being $21 for a total of: $224 (or $22.40 each).

    If you ordered 50 (more usual in my experience) the price per article would be set as: $1064 (or $21.28 each)

    That sets the price of article marketing at...

    4.26c per word for a 500 word article!



    **********




    One final thing...

    This is comparing one experienced and successful professional writer with another. Someone just started out, or with less skill, can not expect to earn as much.

    In addition, people who come in with specialist knowledge can earn more. For example, if you are already recognized as a Tax Law specialist or a well financial expert you can expect to be paid more for your work.

    Print journalists usually rely on building up cuttings to show editors in order to get commissioned for writing work. Building up these cuttings often involves working cheaply or for free. Article marketing writers may have to except less well paid work or offer lower prices to start building up their client list.

    Finally

    As always... there is supply and demand...

    Some magazines will pay much, much less than others simply because they can. All magazines are run to make money will pay as little as they can get away with. A very sneaky ruse is for prestigious magazines and newspapers to approach bloggers and get them to write content for free. Most will accept, simply because they get a kick out of seeing their name in a prestigious title.

    Website owners buying content tend to be very stingy and will offer about half what you could get writing for print. However, the work is plentiful and much easier. At a time when magazines are closing (and forcing regular staff to write more, for the same salary) writing for websites is becoming more attractive to good writers.

    This being so, it is possible to get high caliber content at around $10-15 per 500 words. Which must count as pennies* per word.

    (You won't get me though :p It's not worth me selling articles for anything less than $40 each. This 1355 word post was free though!)

    *I'm assuming 1c = 1 penny






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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."
      The statement that "'Pennies a word' only buys failure" is the main point I was referring to. Anything under $1 per word qualifies as "pennies per word" so I don't think it was out of line for me to say....

      Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

      That depends on how many pennies per word, doesn't it?
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      Tina, I used lots of conditional statements in my post, so that should have made me eligible for a "Get out of jail free" card from the word police.

      I could not disagree with you more that there are "no absolutes." It is my experience that there are many. Even those who might be of another opinion know there is at least one -- "The only absolute truth is that there are no absolutes truths."
      Donhx, when I referred to you making a lot of absolute statements, I was not meaning just within this single post. You do it in almost every post you make on this subject. I get it - you're not a cheap writer and you think people need to pay more to get the quality they need. Most of the time, I agree with you.

      But you seem unable to see that online marketers often do not need the writing that you are referring to in order to be very successful at what they do. You are comparing apples to oranges most of the time.

      I do, however, agree with the initial point in your post as to the cultural aspects. There is almost always a distinct difference in style, delivery and phrasing when comparing the writing from different countries.

      Originally Posted by healingoasis View Post

      I've never got high caliber content for pennies a word. I've always been disappointed from the people who offer those services.
      Like I asked Donhx, what constitutes "pennies a word" for you?

      This debate comes up frequently here and each time it ends the same. It's pointless to continue to debate it over and over again. You have a better chance of finding quality writing at the higher prices but it's not an absolute. Great writers sometimes take lower pay due to not knowing what they're worth or for other reasons. I've seen some terrible writers get paid double what I ask for.

      Price is not an absolute determination of quality.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

      Let's get this into perspective, shall we?

      ...

      4.26c per word for a 500 word article!
      Let's add the further perspective that the line for "professional" writing in most writing associations is five cents a word. If you're not paid by the word, you're expected to convert what you were paid to a per-word amount.

      If you got less than five cents a word on a particular project, you cannot list that project as "experience" on your application for acceptance to the association, and it may not form any part of your publication history.

      But if you are getting five cents a word or more, then you are acting as a professional writer and what you have sold counts as experience.

      What Don is doing here is defining his own little niche of writing: "high caliber effective IM writing," which can probably best be defined as "what Don does."

      Now, you've brought up the very real point that you can get "IM" writing for 4.26 cents a word, and I've brought up the point that you can get "high caliber" writing for 5 cents a word, and that you can get "effective" writing for 1.1 cents a word, but nobody has presented in any way that you can get "high caliber effective IM" writing for anything like those rates.

      The argument from the OP is essentially "you can't get what I do for pennies a word." By which he presumably means less than his rates, because while copywriters may earn thousands of dollars a page... $25,000 is still just 2.5 million pennies. So since he's already admitted that he's not talking about copywriting, but something less expensive, we can assume he has some upper bound in mind on the number of pennies.

      Which means the OP basically says:

      "I have the lowest rates in the industry for what I do."

      And then he proceeds to explain just how important what he does is, and how much you really need it, which in the end probably means the post should be reported as self-promotional.

      Not really. Get away from that little triangle icon. He's not TRYING to put a sales pitch in the main IM forum. He's just being a typical service provider.

      What Don is saying here is that he honestly believes he gives the best possible service at the best possible price. And that's a good thing for a service provider to believe.

      Where he's crossed the line is when he basically says nobody else's service is worth having, because the ONLY kind of writing you should have is the kind he does. And since he has the lowest rates, obviously you want to hire him... not someone more expensive. (Who is probably doing something else, anyway, and charging you for stuff you don't need.)

      There is room in this industry for all kinds of writing, and if you think what YOU do is the only thing ANYONE should do, you are an idiot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    I think it unlikely that you can hire a high caliber IM content writer for pennies in India, the Philippines or elsewhere.

    People in India, the Philippines or other places may know how to put words on paper, but that is not enough. IM people who buy their writing have no idea about what effective writing looks like, so they accept it.

    People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."
    Don,

    What a bunch of horse hockey...

    Your blanket statements would eliminate me as a writer for the IM market. I happen to be an American living in the Philippines...

    It would also eliminate people who can and do create killer content here in the Philippines. People who have received college educations in the USA, Australia, and the UK.

    I'll grant you this one fact...the average Filipino writer cannot produce the level of content with the proper "feel" required to convert highly. But then again, an excellent Filipino writer will be willing to work at far under $1/word. As far as that goes, so will I.

    I have no idea what your pricing is, but I rather doubt most Internet marketers offer you $1000 for a 1000 word article to post on their site. The ROI simply is not there.

    Time for you to confess that half of your post is pure utter nonsense, with an underlying core of good information.

    Barry
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  • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
    You probably can't. And the reason is this - people who write WELL are generally SMART. Smart people are AWARE of the value they provide and the money they can receive for the value, so they adjust their prices accordingly. They might work for cheap for a bit, but then notice that there is an increasing amount of orders, therefore increase their prices to market level.
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    Allen gets tons of great content for the Warrior Forum for free...
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  • Hi Donhx,

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]Based upon my decades of experience as a writer, plus my travels to 31 countries, including living 10 years outside the U.S., I think it unlikely that you can hire a high caliber IM content writer for pennies in India, the Philippines or elsewhere.[/SNIP]
    What may be an accurate hypothesis and conclusion for you may not be the same results for everyone else. Thanks for sharing your relevant sets of observations, inferences, test results, actual experience, theories, opinions and perspectives...

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]I know people SAY they can find such writers, but there is a lot of inferior quality writing out there. It is a big part of the litter (along with "spun" articles) that Google wanted to get rid of with their Feb 28 algorithm change.[/SNIP]
    Inferior English content writing can be seen anywhere, from native English-speaking countries to non native English-speaking ones...

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]People in India, the Philippines or other places may know how to put words on paper, but that is not enough. IM people who buy their writing have no idea about what effective writing looks like, so they accept it.[/SNIP]
    Numbers please. How many Indian and Filipino writers have you worked with? How many IM people have you talked to about this?

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]The fact is, effective IM writing is far more than just words on paper--it involves the proper use of idiomatic language and sales psychology of the culture where the product is being sold.[/SNIP]
    My results show otherwise. Your previous statements and this above point out Indian and Filipino marketing writers do not know relevant English idiomatic language and American or European cultural sales psychology. We have helped the product of a North American system security software corporation become the best selling registry cleaner of all time, with the online content marketing write-ups of my Filipino colleagues. We have helped the website of a European system security software corporation become one of the top 10 technology websites of all time in the prestigious list of a global technology media corporation, with the online marketing write-ups of my Filipino colleagues.

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]An Indian writer would be great for people writing for Indian people and a Filipino writer is great for Filipino customers, but I think it is counter-productive to hire an Indian or Filipino to write for the American market, for example.[/SNIP]
    Support your claims with relevant test results please. Thanks.

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]The reason this is a bad business practice is a simple one. There is a whole field of study called "Cross-Cultural Communication", and virtually all offshore writers, and IM people who buy their stuff, are totally ignorant about that. That ignorance costs IM people who purchase "out of culture" writing millions of dollars in lost sales.[/SNIP]
    Relevant test results please. I'm sure you know the amount of tests needed for your claim that "all offshore writers, and IM people who buy their stuff, are totally ignorant about Cross-Cultural Communication" to be an acceptable hypothesis and conclusion. Thanks.

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]Offshore people may say they understand American culture (as an example), but based on my experience, I doubt it. No... I'm not speaking unkindly about people India or the Philippines in any way. I know for sure that as an American writer I could not write effective articles or others sales materials for an Indian or Philippine audience, and wouldn't even try.[/SNIP]
    You are correct only because that's you and your experience talking, not everyone else and their relevant experience.

    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    [SNIP]People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."[/SNIP]
    At least I saw the word "probably" in one statement. Please support your claims with relevant test results. My own results and those of our clients show otherwise. I'm sure you know your own experience and limited test results would need more relevant sets of observations, inferences, test results, actual experience, theories, opinions and perspectives of a lot of people in this industry, to be seen as an acceptable hypothesis and conclusion. Until I see that amount of relevant facts: I'll stick to my own hypothesis and conclusion that your post is a nonsensical, poorly tested hypothesis and conclusion. Thanks.
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    • Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      [SNIP]Where are your test results? Please publish them.[/SNIP]
      I included some of my test results already in my post above. "We helped the product of a North American system security software corporation to become the world's best selling registry cleaner of all time, with the online content marketing write-ups of my Filipino colleagues... We helped the website of a European system security software corporation to be among the top 10 best technology websites of all time in the prestigious list of a global media company..." Google those things, NDAs, you know. Want more? Check out Tech-FAQ.Com...

      You can check out the author profile of "Karina Daniel" in Constant-Content.Com...

      We grossed a lot with my Filipino colleagues writing for the repeat customers of that website in 5 months...

      You can check out this video, done by the Asia Pacific Development Center on Disability of the United Nations. Yeah, that's me in the video...

      You can check out this video, done by GMA News, the leading news media corporation of the Philippines...

      You can check out this post, written by Jose Concepcion III, the official Presidential Consultant for Business and Entrepreneurship, also the owner of RFM Corporation, a giant in the food and beverage industry here...

      You can check out this page, written by the government secretary on local business and entrepreneurial affairs...

      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      [SNIP]Scientific lingo gives the appearance of competence, but it's just a facade.[/SNIP]
      When is it a facade, and when is it actually competent? Test results please...

      Yeah, that's right: I don't make outlandish claims without substantial test results...

      Just curious, Mr. Ken Caudill: What sort of achievements have you managed to gain with your business, for you to drop statements I assume to have condescending and derogatory implications? Googled your name, if that's your real name, and I didn't see any substantial news about you and your business, just your many website profiles... You're into profile link building I assume?
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      • Please publish your scientific results. I would really like to see them. Your reply consists of name dropping and and a feeble attempt to shift the onus of showing scientific results on to me. I'm sorry, but I haven't made any claims. You do have them, don't you? It should be a simple cut and paste job. Surely you can do that.[/QUOTE]

        Hi. Have time to repeat myself for you today. What part of my post did you miss? Ahh: It's the implication of due diligence. I'll spell it out for you then: Google has our results. Google the best selling registry cleaner of all time. Google the top 10 list of the best technology websites of all time. That's all you'll need. Can't drop identities of our clients, NDAs in our contracts, which I mentioned in my previous post. BTW: NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement, spelled out for you, Mr. Ken...

        If we helped a product of one of our many North American corporate clients become the best Windows system registry cleaner of all time, and the website of another European corporate client to be included in the 10 best technology websites of all time in the prestigious list of a global media corporation, with the write-ups of my Filipino writer colleagues: How can "all" Indian and Filipino offshore IM content writing be ineffective for the North American and European audience? Is having the best selling registry cleaner of all time and a website included in the top 10 prestigious list of the best technology websites of all time count as "ineffective"? Simple logic or even common sense points out a clear answer to this...

        Also: Indulge my curiosity please, Mr. Ken: What sort of achievements have you gained with your business? And: Are you into profile link building? Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author TracyNeedham
    I love it when people pay pennies a word because then they come to me afterward and have no problem paying for good writing. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarah Bosen
    There is always someone willing to write for very cheap that happens to provide quality. But they may be hard to find and it may not be worth your time looking for that sole individual.
    I have to add that sometimes the best option is to not write in a way that makes people get sucked into your product. Sometimes that type of writing makes your value less. I guess I'm just saying always provide garbage and have integrity. I'm sick of people trying to squeeze a penny out of someone by lying or telling half truths.
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  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Ehinger
    You are absolutely correct and what sucks is that these are the people that drive down the price for those of us that are born in the USA and educated. It is hard to compete with them on the price because there are some very ignorant internet marketers that do not understand the value of great content. Google is really making some major changes and so is EZA to ensure that what they cater to is quality. The junk that is out there will slowly disappear and many will wish they spent more time worrying about quality instead of quantity.

    Benjamin Ehinger
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    • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
      Originally Posted by Benjamin Ehinger View Post

      You are absolutely correct and what sucks is that these are the people that drive down the price for those of us that are born in the USA and educated.
      If I had much hair left I'd be pulling it out right now.

      Your signature line states $1.50/100 words. That is 15 pennies per word. Therefore you are writing for pennies per word.

      You should be highly insulted by Don's assertion. Since you are willing to write for pennies per word your writing must be poor. Only when you reach the level of charging $100/100 words do you become a true professional....Just ask Don.
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  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Ehinger
    You are absolutely correct and what sucks is that these are the people that drive down the price for those of us that are born in the USA and educated. It is hard to compete with them on the price because there are some very ignorant internet marketers that do not understand the value of great content. Google is really making some major changes and so is EZA to ensure that what they cater to is quality. The junk that is out there will slowly disappear and many will wish they spent more time worrying about quality instead of quantity.

    Benjamin Ehinger
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    I don't think the OP said that at all, CD.

    What he actually said was:


    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    I think it unlikely that you can hire a high caliber IM content writer for pennies


    Later, he would add the word "effective" to that.

    But when you factor it down and look at everything ELSE he said, it doesn't make any sense to claim he was saying anything except "everyone should write like I write."

    To which I respond with a single finger.
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  • Profile picture of the author coluden
    I think you are right. There is a distinct difference borne out of cultural differences between writers from these different countries. The American market is hyper-competitive and definitely more experienced. Americans generally read more than most people from developing countries (from my experience), and this is part of the reason.

    To be fair though, I think you will have to consider the markets to which IM'ers are actually selling their products. If I am trying to sell $30 products to a mass market, it is hardly likely that I am going to pay $10.00 or more per article. If I am selling $3,950 training course, or forex robots, I will be happy to do that. My commissions alone would make it a worthwhile expense. So, again, the market will make the call. The important thing is to read the market right, and market to it accordingly.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Why Write 5,000 words for 100 bucks when you can write the same 5,000 words, in the form of a "report" and make $5,000 -$10,000?

    I dont understand. Help me.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Why Write 5,000 words for 100 bucks when you can write the same 5,000 words, in the form of a "report" and make $5,000 -$10,000?
      What makes you think the average writer has any damn clue what to sell or where to sell it?

      Look, he might only get a hundred bucks for something that will make his client thousands, but it's not like he could have made thousands himself. He needs someone else to tell him what to write, and even then he's got no clue what to do with it once it's written.
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      • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
        Writers should stop whining and look at it from a business perspective.

        Right now, there's a backlink-keyword exploit in the search and rank system. Smart businesses take every legal advantage they can to generate revenue.

        Really smart businesses do the same thing AND they decrease expenses so more of the revenue falls into the profit margin.

        So the question is simple, do I hire a good English writer for $20 or a different kind or writer for a twentieth of that?

        Writers see writing as a creative endeavor. The fact that someone else sees writing as a more technical task and has found a demand for that technical type of writing, irks some writers to no end.

        Even if there were no Fillipino or Indian writers, there'd still be plenty of griping about prices amongst American writers because somebody's always willing to undercut the market. Ain't the free market grand?

        That said, I firmly believe that freelance writers and creatives will have their day in the sun soon.
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        • Profile picture of the author schttrj
          Originally Posted by writeandreview View Post

          Writers should stop whining and look at it from a business perspective.

          Right now, there's a backlink-keyword exploit in the search and rank system. Smart businesses take every legal advantage they can to generate revenue.

          Really smart businesses do the same thing AND they decrease expenses so more of the revenue falls into the profit margin.

          So the question is simple, do I hire a good English writer for $20 or a different kind or writer for a twentieth of that?

          Writers see writing as a creative endeavor. The fact that someone else sees writing as a more technical task and has found a demand for that technical type of writing, irks some writers to no end.

          Even if there were no Fillipino or Indian writers, there'd still be plenty of griping about prices amongst American writers because somebody's always willing to undercut the market. Ain't the free market grand?

          That said, I firmly believe that freelance writers and creatives will have their day in the sun soon.
          All hail, sir!
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Why Write 5,000 words for 100 bucks when you can write the same 5,000 words, in the form of a "report" and make $5,000 -$10,000?

      I dont understand. Help me.
      John, this is because there are many good writers out there who are not marketers, and as a result they have absolutely no clue how to sell their 5,000 words in a way that would make them $5,000 and up!
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  • Profile picture of the author schttrj
    Originally Posted by donhx View Post

    Based upon my decades of experience as a writer, plus my travels to 31 countries, including living 10 years outside the U.S., I think it unlikely that you can hire a high caliber IM content writer for pennies in India, the Philippines or elsewhere.

    I know people SAY they can find such writers, but there is a lot of inferior quality writing out there. It is a big part of the litter (along with "spun" articles) that Google wanted to get rid of with their Feb 28 algorithm change.

    People in India, the Philippines or other places may know how to put words on paper, but that is not enough. IM people who buy their writing have no idea about what effective writing looks like, so they accept it.

    The fact is, effective IM writing is far more than just words on paper--it involves the proper use of idiomatic language and sales psychology of the culture where the product is being sold.

    An Indian writer would be great for people writing for Indian people and a Filipino writer is great for Filipino customers, but I think it is counter-productive to hire an Indian or Filipino to write for the American market, for example.

    The reason this is a bad business practice is a simple one. There is a whole field of study called "Cross-Cultural Communication", and virtually all offshore writers, and IM people who buy their stuff, are totally ignorant about that. That ignorance costs IM people who purchase "out of culture" writing millions of dollars in lost sales.

    Offshore people may say they understand American culture (as an example), but based on my experience, I doubt it. No... I'm not speaking unkindly about people India or the Philippines in any way. I know for sure that as an American writer I could not write effective articles or others sales materials for an Indian or Philippine audience, and wouldn't even try.

    People who are in IM looking to pay "pennies a word" are probably in the wrong business. "Pennies a word" only buys failure. Instead, IMers should be seeking quality writing that results in high conversion rates, and is not just filler. It's not about "cheap," and it's everything about "Return on Investment (ROI)."
    I beg to differ with you, Sir...It doesn't depend on the culture you live in, but it depends on your UNDERSTANDING OF THE MARKET.

    Or, Malaysian people wouldn't have been able to make millions in the US market. It just needs some involvement.
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  • Profile picture of the author Baba Pandey
    Of course professional writers charge higher around 5 cents per word. However, it doesn't mean that you can't get quality content for cheaper. I have hired many writers for 1-2 cents (pennies) per word and the content was awesome.

    donhx thinks only Indians and Filipino work for cheap ? I have hired 1c word writers from USA and established indian writers charge 5-6cents per word. A useless discussion going on here IMO
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    • Profile picture of the author TheRockstarWriter
      Originally Posted by Baba Pandey View Post

      A useless discussion going on here IMO
      So why'd you bump it after two years?
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      While you spend time reading people's signatures on a forum someone else is working to make the money you could have made.

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  • Profile picture of the author damian5000
    How about you don't be lazy and just write your own stuff instead of stealing and plagiarizing other people's work, or paying other people to do it for you. Might be the best solution, and you'll be able to look your kids in the face without knowing you're a thieving shit bag.
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  • Profile picture of the author Geoff101
    Low cost writers have never given me something to put on a quality site. Tried Odesk and some other writing services.

    Even if the writer is capable of writing well they usually are not motivated to bring out their best when the pay is so low.
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  • Profile picture of the author Assignmentwriter
    You have a good experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author GerryFox
    Guess the motto must be ... You get what you pay for ...

    Exercising Due Diligence and Quality Control of course ...
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