BIG List. Autoresponder or dedicated hosting?

21 replies
My list has grown to 150k double optin users. Now I'm wonder if I should switch over to a self hosted dedicated email solution. With a big list like this, spam complaints tend to get over the 0.1% mark sometimes. It is a hit or miss thing. Should someone with a big list go for dedicated email solution? Is anyone out there still using aweber or other autoresponders alike with a big list? What are risks of going self-hosted? Is there company that offers self-hosted solution but also take cares of the deliverability and everything for you?
#autoresponder #big #dedicated #hosting #list
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    You have one huge problem with any self-hosted solution - even something really robust: email delivery rates. If you're monetizing a list of 150K and it's not a spam list, you're wealthy by now. Even if you do it half-ass, you're making big money. So finding an enterprise-level solution is not difficult. But again, you'll run into problems with email throttling and filtering on the receiving end (not individual recipients but rather their providers filtering at the server level).

    If another Warrior can't give you a good solution, try calling the big players and ask them. I bet the kind people at Aweber could at least recommend a solution. I bet they get asked this all the time.

    Good luck! I envy you if your list truly is 150K "double opt-in" subscribers. You're sitting on millions of dollars of annual income if they're in any kind of decent niche.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      There's the possibility of using a self-hosted autoresponder
      solution to manage the e-mail database and then using an
      external SMTP server to actually deliver your e-mails and
      manage your deliverability.

      For example, you could use something like Interspire Email
      Marketer to manage your database:

      Email Marketing | Email Marketing Software | Interspire Email Marketer (no affil.)

      Then use an external SMTP e-mail deliverability service such
      as smtp.com, authsmtp.com, etc:

      SMTP Service Provider | SMTP Email Relay Server | SMTP.com (no affil.)

      Outgoing authenticated SMTP server and email relay service (solves most SMTP and email relay errors). (no affil.)

      The neat thing with this route is that you're 100% in control
      of your e-mail database.

      And, you can change your external SMTP server at will if
      you run into deliverability issues with a particular server.

      In contrast, if you use someone like AWeber, GetResponse,
      etc and their servers get blacklisted, your e-mail database
      AND your deliverability can go down the tubes.

      There's a lot of mis-information given on the subject of
      self-hosted autoresponder solutions.

      I use both self-hosted solutions and third-party autoresponder
      providers to manage e-mail campaigns for myself and my clients.

      Each option has strengths and weaknesses but self-hosted
      with an external SMTP service gives you more control of
      your e-mail database whilst retaining deliverability too.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author web_dev
        Shaun, what you mentioned makes sense. However, when going with Interspire Email
        Marketer+SMTP, who is responsible for maintaining relationship withs ISPs, keep my IP white listed and all the stuff that you have to do keep your emails going into inboxes? If your IP or domain happen to get blacklisted, will SMTP work to get it back for you?

        My list is huge but not that huge. One mistake I made with my list was to not establish relationship from the beginning. I started emailing my list when it was around 40k. Before that it was very occasional I would email except for few followups. Now, if I go too aggressive with my list, my spam complaints go over 0.1% but never over 0.2%.

        Has anyone heard of Getresponse360.com? They seem to offer what Interspire Email
        Marketer+SMTP gives in one package but I'm not too sure about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
          Originally Posted by web_dev View Post

          Shaun, what you mentioned makes sense. However, when going with Interspire Email
          Marketer+SMTP, who is responsible for maintaining relationship withs ISPs, keep my IP white listed and all the stuff that you have to do keep your emails going into inboxes? If your IP or domain happen to get blacklisted, will SMTP work to get it back for you?
          With the self-hosted + external SMTP service route,
          you specify that SMTP.com (or whoever) are authorized
          to send e-mail on your behalf.

          SMTP server providers such as SMTP.com have a rigorous
          application process to ensure that you're a responsible
          e-mail marketer and won't damage the reputation of their
          server IP addresses due to excessive spam complaints, etc.

          SMTP.com manage the reputation of the servers they use
          to send your e-mail:

          Corporate Dedicated Server Solution | SMTP.com (no affil.)

          Even Amazon SES (Simple E-mail Service) are now providing
          the option of allowing people to send e-mail via their servers
          using external software.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
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          • Profile picture of the author web_dev
            So, I first have to buy a dedicated server, then sign with Interspire Email
            Marketer and install their software on my machine (Do they provide hosting too?) and then sign with SMTP?

            How do I integrate Interspire Email Marketer with SMTP?

            What question do they ask before approving you?
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            • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
              Originally Posted by web_dev View Post

              So, I first have to buy a dedicated server, then sign with Interspire Email
              Marketer and install their software on my machine (Do they provide hosting too?) and then sign with SMTP?

              How do I integrate Interspire Email Marketer with SMTP?

              What question do they ask before approving you?
              I'd recommend hosting the autoresponder software on
              either a VPS or Dedicated Server.

              Then install the autoresponder software on the server.

              Then sign-up with say SMTP.com (and some others if
              you want back-up solutions).

              Here's some typical questions that SMTP.com will ask you:

              What type of business or service do you provide?

              What is the nature of the email that you will be sending?

              How did you acquire your mailing list? How many subscribers do you currently have?

              How do people subscribe to your mailing list? If your mailing list was gathered online, please provide us with the URL where your recipients add their email address.

              If your mailing list is opt-in, please describe your opt-in process.

              How do people unsubscribe to you mailing list? Do you provide a live link to unsubscribe or a return email address that enables the recipient to request that they do not want to receive emails from you?
              (SMTP.com and others do more rigorous screening than
              many third-party autoresponder service providers do!).

              SMTP will then give you a username and password and
              then you input these details into your autoresponder
              software.

              Interspire E-mail Marketer allow external SMTP servers
              to be used with their software.

              ActiveCampaign is another autoresponder software
              solution that allows your e-mail to be sent via external
              SMTP servers and it also offers better support than
              Interspire (IMO):

              Email Marketing Software | Email Marketing | Email Campaign Software (no affil.)

              And ActiveCampaign intend to integrate their software
              with Amazon SES too so that gives you tons of flexibility
              on e-mail delivery routes.

              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
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              • Profile picture of the author web_dev
                Shaun, ActiveCampaign seem more promising. I will compare their features with Interprise in more detail later.

                From the last link you posted, it seems SMTP includes a dedicated server in their price plan. So I don't have to buy a dedicated server separately? All in all, if I'm signing with ActiveCampaign + SMTP to send 1m emails a month the total I'm looking at is $1000 approximately?

                I also got a quote from GetResponse360.com. They will provide a dedicated server, 2 IPs and limit of storing 500,000 subscribers with unlimited sends + setup for a little more price. What I'm not sure about if they leave me to do the grunt work after? I have to ask them but for their website I wasn't able to gather that.
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                • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
                  Originally Posted by web_dev View Post

                  Shaun, ActiveCampaign seem more promising. I will compare their features with Interprise in more detail later.

                  From the last link you posted, it seems SMTP includes a dedicated server in their price plan. So I don't have to buy a dedicated server separately? All in all, if I'm signing with ActiveCampaign + SMTP to send 1m emails a month the total I'm looking at is $1000 approximately?

                  I also got a quote from GetResponse360.com. They will provide a dedicated server, 2 IPs and limit of storing 500,000 subscribers with unlimited sends + setup for a little more price. What I'm not sure about if they leave me to do the grunt work after? I have to ask them but for their website I wasn't able to gather that.
                  ActiveCampaign is a more robust solution with faster
                  performance, more features and better support than
                  Interspire IMO.

                  SMTP offer different set-ups for their servers - shared
                  SMTP servers or dedicated SMTP servers. Obviously,
                  you'll get better deliverability if you have a dedicated
                  SMTP server and send your e-mails responsibly.

                  (For your e-mail volumes though, you'll likely get placed
                  on a dedicated SMTP server package anyways).

                  I've not used GetResponse360.com so I can't really
                  comment on their reliability or set-up. They are run
                  by Implix who also operate the third-party autoresponder
                  service named GetResponse.

                  If people use third-party autoresponder services such
                  as AWeber, GetResponse, etc, then their deliverability
                  rates are affected by the behavior (and mis-behavior)
                  of other people sending e-mail via their servers.

                  If you have a dedicated SMTP server managed by someone
                  like SMTP.com, then you get a clean slate that's managed
                  by them so they take some of the headaches out of e-mail
                  deliverability issues for a self-hosted solution.

                  Dedicated to mutual success,

                  Shaun
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                  • Profile picture of the author web_dev
                    Yes, ActiveCampaign's software looks more promising. I just went though their video tutorials.

                    I use a third party autoreposnder, Aweber. Problem is my list size. They seem to be telling me to keep my complaint rates below 0.1%. I hit between 0.12% - 0.15% in the last few weeks. I send 4 broadcasts a month and few follwoups. I want to move away from shared hosted service like aweber and go the dedicated root because of my list size and to avoid any unforeseen situation of getting terminated.

                    Shaun thanks very much for answering my questions today and educating us. Appreciate it. Hopefully others can get some help from this thread as well.

                    So, to recap. I need an email marketing software (ActiveCampaign or Interprise) + a dedicated email server (SMTP) and email delivery service (SMTP or AuthSMTP) to setup something similar to what I have now at Aweber?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
                      Originally Posted by web_dev View Post

                      Yes, ActiveCampaign's software looks more promising. I just went though their video tutorials.

                      I use a third party autoreposnder, Aweber. Problem is my list size. They seem to be telling me to keep my complaint rates below 0.1%. I hit between 0.12% - 0.15% in the last few weeks. I send 4 broadcasts a month and few follwoups. I want to move away from shared hosted service like aweber and go the dedicated root because of my list size and to avoid any unforeseen situation of getting terminated.

                      Shaun thanks very much for answering my questions today and educating us. Appreciate it. Hopefully others can get some help from this thread as well.

                      So, to recap. I need an email marketing software (ActiveCampaign or Interprise) + a dedicated email server (SMPT) and email delivery service (SMPT or AuthSMTP) to setup something similar to what I have now at Aweber?
                      Changing from AWeber to a self-hosted software solution
                      will not solve your complaint rate issue. You'll need to
                      work on reducing your complaints - regardless of what
                      set-up you use.

                      Make sure that you backup your lists from AWeber regularly
                      just in case they terminate your account for exceeding the
                      spam complaint rate too often.

                      Yes - in summary you need self-hosted autoresponder
                      software installed on either VPS or Dedicated hosting.
                      Then use an external SMTP service such as SMTP.com
                      to allow you to send your e-mail via SMTP managed
                      servers.

                      Get accounts with other SMTP server providers too as
                      a backup delivery route and then you can change your
                      e-mail server at the drop of a hat if you run into delivery
                      issues.

                      The danger with third-party autoresponder providers is
                      that your e-mail database and e-mail server are tied
                      together at the hip and you don't control which e-mail
                      server they use to send your campaigns.

                      At least with a self-hosted solution you're in full control
                      of your e-mail database (you access the full MySQL
                      database via phpAdmin and tailor your data accordingly).
                      And you get to choose what server is used to send your
                      e-mail.

                      Dedicated to mutual success,

                      Shaun
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                      • Profile picture of the author web_dev
                        Shaun,

                        What can you say about SMPT deliverability claims. Are currently using them or have you used them? I've contacted them after your recommendation, answered their screening questions and waiting for them to get back.

                        Meanwhile they mentioned the process to me. I'm just wondering on how long it will take with them to get to a good deliverlability rate and how their deliverlibility rate is?
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  • Profile picture of the author myob
    My lists total over 660k, and been using autoresponder plus for quite awhile. They have an option to either install on your choice of any dedicated server, or they will host on their server. Check it out at arplus3.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Jim Cockrum
    I've been using aweber happily for several years with about 40 different lists hosted with them...and I make back ups just in case of a disaster. I have over 100K and rarely (but occasionally) hit the dreaded .01 complaint rate.

    I like using a third party service because they can worry about deliver-ability issues...I just market and run my business.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
    What are you using now?

    With that big of a list, I'm sure you've made
    a great amount from it and can easily purchase
    an enterprise solution. If you surely have that
    big of a list that are double opt-in, I'd recommend
    Infusionsoft for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
    Forget about doing your own email hosting. It's a pain in the ass... you'll be spending most of your day trying to manage your email servers and making sure all your IPs are prepped and clean instead of building your business. Let the professionals do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author web_dev
      Originally Posted by Daniel Brock View Post

      Forget about doing your own email hosting. It's a pain in the ass... you'll be spending most of your day trying to manage your email servers and making sure all your IPs are prepped and clean instead of building your business. Let the professionals do it.
      Daniel, have you used an SMTP service before? Check out SMTP.com. They manage the deliverlability for you. This is different form doing it yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author hotlinkz
    Contact Aweber, GetResponse or other major autoresponder service and inquire about "white label" solutions. Unless you have lots of extra time and expertise with SMTP configuration and tweaking, you may have to hire someone who does.

    With 3rd party hosting, you remove a lot of the "unseen" and "behind the scenes" drudge work. Hosting your own list drops this drudge work back into your lap.
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  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    Same thing here, self hosted Auto responder script. Did run into some issues with a 55k list with my host but has been resolved through whitelisting and a few adjustments here and there.

    Ask your host. Talk to them, I'm sure they can accommodate you somehow even if you had 500k. I know my host would.

    Bernard St-Pierre
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    • Profile picture of the author web_dev
      I'm coming to report my experience with SMTP relay emailing. Thou these services are a little cheaper than your regular ESPs, but the deliverability really sucks with these services.

      I have tried few companies. Sendgrid, Socketlabs and Critsend. Here is a important point to note - These companies will put all new accounts on their worst ip cluster to prevent spaming through their network. They will also throttle your emails in the beginning.

      In the beginning the open rates will suck and you will sit there starching your head what happened. Not knowing what the reason was for low open rates, I would switch one company to another and see the same results. My open rates are typically 10-12% lower. They claim open rate will improve but I doubt it. For example, sendgrid says after few weeks, if my email reputation is good, they will switch me to a better ip cluster but this is remain to be seen.

      You will also need to buy an email marketing software to connect to smtp servers. I bought ActiveCampaign and installed it on a new VPS server. Over all, there is a bit of learning curve for emailing this way.

      I wouldn't recommend this method if you have a big list and are satisfied with your current ESP.
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  • Profile picture of the author tnimz
    Any comments about how this would compare to using Amazon SES (Simple Email Service), plus something like AutoresponsePlus?

    I've noticed that Aweber and other 3rd-party AR systems have had really crappy delivery rates lots of times lately, their re-direct servers haven't been accessible, plus a bunch of other problems.

    TIA
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      I have not encountered any major deliverability issues using autoresponseplus on a dedicated server. Encourage subscribers to use their "best" email when opting in and to place you on their whitelist.
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