Is This Ethical?

15 years ago

they all tell you, however most "hide" it in fine print

I HATE programs and marketers that do it, however many think it's fine

and imo it's not "ethical" or even "legal", I think it's fraud (promising one thing but delivering another)

most cpa networks have offers like this also, I think it's just a matter of time until the attorney generals catch up with them

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4today

15 years ago

I have!! It is totally unethical.

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pmore

15 years ago

Of course it's not ethical, if a product is a recurring charge I think it should be made very clear. I've spoken with you before Najat and I know you're intelligent enough to realise if this is the case or not.

This is why I like Paypal, it's easy to keep track of these things. Have you tried mailing them?

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Najat Engineer

15 years ago

digitalproductreporter
I'm sure they are amaking a lot of money from that, that's why I see a lot are doing this!
thank you so much for your comment

4today
that's what I thought, a lot are experiencing this and it's really fraud
thank you so much for your comment

pmore
if it was paypal or clickbank I will know about it of course but some internet marketers are using their own payment gateways, so how can you know untill you lose some money especially if it was done by a big internet marketer that everyone trust!
thank you so much for your comment

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Christopher R Everson

15 years ago

Odds are YOU just DIDN'T READ what you are signing up for.

It's not always your fault, some people are just downright deceptive about it.

And often, the nature of this market is pretty much all "HYPE KILL ZONE SALE" attitude, so by the time you are done the copy you already have your credit card out for five different offers before you even had time to go over them.

Most of this happens when stuff seems too good to be true. Like the majority of continuity offers that have INSANE deals for $1.00.

If you went into a car dealership and someone offered you a corvette for a $1,000, wouldn't you be damn sure to read the fine print? Even the big print?

It's no different on the internet.

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Najat Engineer

15 years ago

Christopher R Everson
I make sure I read everything

but some are really hiding it or tells you by the email and honestly I don't read every email I get!! it's not my fault they should say this in their webpage!!

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imaddict

15 years ago

Well... there are 2 sides to every story, including this one. Are you sure you went over all the terms of the sale carefully?

I'm not saying this is the case, however, I've had customers file chargebacks on rebills for membership sites claiming that the rebill was not authorized (although the terms are clearly spelled out in big BOLD letters right above the order form).

If that's not the case, well I agree with the others. It's not ethical (nor legal).

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EndGame

15 years ago

I would be interested to know the legal background of some of the people in this thread pronouncing this practice as illegal and then I would like to know the legislation they are using to determine this practice as illegal.

My point here is, I accept that SOME (a minority) will be deliberately deceptive and will hide charges etc. Maybe its legal, maybe its not. You can only determine that by reading the small print of the agreement and the details of the corresponding legislation.

Just because YOU feel something is unethical doesn't make it illegal. There are all kinds of unethical things going on out there that are perfectly legal. And I am not talking about tin-pot republics here, I am talking about the UK (one of the most developed legal systems in the World) and the USA. So until you know it as fact, and have researched it, I would ask people to refrain from pronouncing something is illegal until they have genuinely looked into it. This is a discussion about ethics, and as i said, unethical does not always equal "illegal".

One thing I noted in this thread was the OP (I think) said they did not read all their emails. Quite often details of an agreement online are outlined in the form of an email. Your purchase should also be confirmed by way of receipt delivered as an email as well. If you can't take 2 minutes to open up an email and look through the terms of an agreement, that is your fault, and you could possibly get the issue sorted out then and there.

Is it unethical though to be "sneaky" about recurring payments though? Well its not good honest practice, and it shouldn't really happen, however its not the end of the world as, if you're an averagely intelligent person, then you should be able to get a prompt refund and correct the mistake that was made. But it isn't the best of ethical business practices and it would be a better world if it didn't happen so much, BUT we as consumers have a responsibility to protect ourselves and do our due diligence as well. Its not always "they're fault".

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NicheCompanion 15 years ago

I know that problem.
You buy a product and then sometimes the bonuses contain 'free' memberships to sites.
I always forget to cancel and then you are billed the normal price after the trial expires ...
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- Kamran 15 years ago
  
  In my experience, paypal makes it very clear whether I am making a recurring subscription payment or is it a one time fee. So, the point is, even if the seller unethically hides the fact that it is recurring in some small print, paypal will definitely tell you when you are making the first payment that this is a recurring payment. In fact, if you look at the account history, for a subscription there is an additional row added with the amount $0.00 that indicates a subscription, which is not there if it is a one time payment
  
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digitalproductreporter

15 years ago

Originally Posted by EndGame

I would be interested to know the legal background of some of the people in this thread pronouncing this practice as illegal and then I would like to know the legislation they are using to determine this practice as illegal.

lol, how about the florida attorney general?

AzoogleAds Agrees to Pay Florida AG $1 Million - ClickZ

AzoogleAds was investigated for unfair and deceptive trade practices relating to online ringtone offers under Florida statute 501, which deals with clear and conspicuous disclosure of advertiser offer terms. Investigators found consumers responding to the firm's Web ads for free mobile ringtones often ended up unwittingly registering for subscription plans that were automatically billed to their cellphone accounts.

fraud is fraud no matter what way you slice it

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EndGame 15 years ago

The point I was making was that most of these guys are covering themselves with the small print, an email. If loads of these guys are doing this illegally ( well known internet marketers) clickbank for one would have picked up on it.

I work for a top clickbank vendor and we get emails all the time saying that they are subscribed to recurring billing even though they never asked for it. They were sent to a sales letter offering them it. They had to click to accept it. It was just their simple mistake.

Your answer doesn't adequately meet the question. I suspect you were more trying to be a smart ass more than anything else.

To sum up, I am sick of people on this forum with no identity proclaiming certain practices as "illegal" just because they don't like it. People constantly resort to hazey legal arguments because they feel like with the apparent authority of the law on their side, it gives their side of the argument weight. 9 times out of 10, that legal argument is based on nothing.
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EndGame 15 years ago

Furthermore, if the vendor has followed the law, and the customer failed to read the documents and agreement properly. Its not fraud. Whether they made a big thing of their continuity program or not, if they followed the law, they're covered. And its not fraud. Unethical? If hidden and deceptively done, then yes. But not always illegal.

Does the fact that some of my employer's customer's are unable to read a salespage mean that he is committing fraud? I don't think so.
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Eric Lorence 15 years ago

Or it is just simply an unethical marketer...

There are many

Legal or not-

You- as the consumer must decide what is a good business practice in your mind.

Forget about the deep ethics of it, take steps to retrieve your money, and cease to do business with them, or those whom would condone such practices.
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DaveDunn

15 years ago

I'd have thought it was in the TOS when you signed for whatever dollar deal you were offered that you would also be signing for a subscription.

I try and keep on top of these things and usually cancel the subscription a few days later

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Michael Oksa

15 years ago

It's unethical. Period.

Unless...

The recurring billing offer is in the same size font, and just as noticeable as the "main" offer they use to get you in.

If the recurring billing is in smaller print, or less obvious, then it IS unethical.

All the best,
Michael

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jayden.fellze

15 years ago

Due to fear of this kind of unforesen troubles many people tend not to use their credit card for puchasing anything from internet marketers. There is no question of its being ethical. You should talk to the marketer and immediately get the matter settled once and for all.

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freedom25

15 years ago

I have been caught out by this kind of thing before and yes, it is unethical. The thing is when you read over where you signed up, you will see it is all there in the fine print. I felt like a gullible idiot when it happened to me. But the truth is this kind of thing happens to everyone from time to time. There are too many scammers out there.

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WS_Elearning

15 years ago

I think you could directly contact the company who sold product to you and ask if there is any additional fee in it.

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psresearch

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Najat Engineer

.

I've purchased something from a well know internet marketer and then I've discovered that my credit card is being billed every month from that guy for something I didn't request and I didn't know about!!

some of internet marketers will tell you about this if they did it but some don't!!

so how am I supposed to know!

have you ever experienced this before, do you think it's ethical?

.

The FTC has very good guidelines about proper disclosure placement as they relate to proximity and prominence here:

www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/ecommerce/bus41.pdf

Here are some sample settlements from the FTC concerning negative option marketing:

June 2008: 2 million dollar settlement regarding a "Free Software CD

"Before they completed the transaction, they checked a box saying they agreed to the "terms of use." The "terms of use" detailed computer software licensing arrangements and usage rules, and many consumers checked the box without clicking on the hyperlink or reading the form. Buried in the seventh paragraph of the single-spaced document was language that contradicted the free software claim. It stated that consumers would be required to send back two of the four "free" CDs within 10 days or they would be charged a fee of $39 to $49. It also stated that consumers would be enrolled in a software continuity program, would receive additional CDs in the future, and would be charged $39 to $49 for those CDs unless they returned them within 10 days."

December 3, 2008 Settlement with Ultralife:

"Internet Marketers of Dietary Supplement for Weight Loss Agree to Pay $150,000...

Also according to the FTC's complaint, in addition to providing inadequate notice of enrollments in the continuity plans, the defendants failed to give consumers adequate notice of fees, costs, and cancellation polices; and failed to inform them that their financial account information would be used to pay for the continuity plans. The Web site's order pages made no reference to this information; instead, it was buried in nearly 12 pages of text in the site's "terms and conditions" section. Further, the link to the terms and conditions section did not convey the relevance or significance of the information."

You can search the FTC.gov site for negative option settlements and find many more.

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