Do you need a lawyer to launch a website business?

by lurky
21 replies
Hi,
Not sure if this is the right forum but....
I came up with a pretty good business website idea so I had it designed and built by contractors.
I'm now to the point where I need to add copyrights and disclaimers, my site puts people in touch with each other and there is always the possbility that one may seek to harm another, althogh no more that with ebay.
Has anyone here dealt with this issue?
Do I really need a lawyer? Maybe a paralegal will do? Or maybe the language is standard and you can just copy it from somewhere?
If I do need a lawyer, where did you find one?
Thanks
#business #launch #lawyer #website
  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    Originally Posted by lurky View Post

    If I do need a lawyer, where did you find one?
    Thanks
    Google: Laywers in [zip code]

    Works for me every time I need a divorce
    Signature
    You're going to fail. If you're afraid of failure then you do not belong in the Internet Marketing Business. Period.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4069538].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Don't copy the documents from somewhere. There are two problems with that:

      1) They are likely copyrighted. Even legal documents can have copyright protection.

      2) They would not be personalized to your site and, as such, may not adequately cover you. Plus, the wrong wording could open you up to more liability rather than to reduce it.

      So, yes, do use a lawyer for that kind of stuff.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4069561].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author NoviIM
    If you're planning it to be your primary business, it wouldnt hurt to get one...
    Definitely try to find someone in your area who specializes in this matter

    -Yury

    Originally Posted by lurky View Post

    Hi,
    Not sure if this is the right forum but....
    I came up with a pretty good business website idea so I had it designed and built by contractors.
    I'm now to the point where I need to add copyrights and disclaimers, my site puts people in touch with each other and there is always the possbility that one may seek to harm another, althogh no more that with ebay.
    Has anyone here dealt with this issue?
    Do I really need a lawyer? Maybe a paralegal will do? Or maybe the language is standard and you can just copy it from somewhere?
    If I do need a lawyer, where did you find one?
    Thanks
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4069575].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    If you have a serious business, definitely get a lawyer. You don't want to end up like Frank Kern with the FTC!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4069632].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    Even though they seem expensive; it's a lot more expensive to be found guilty of a criminal act or be sued. Spend the 1k or whatever and get a good lawyer :-)
    Signature
    FREE 500 word articles, PM me for yours!
    (4 days only!)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4069659].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dann Vicker
    If you can afford one, go for it. Its important to always check in between the lines of your offers
    Signature

    Looking for high quality solo ad traffic? 200-2000 clicks available/day. Testimonials here. PM me

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4070490].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Having a lawyer can be very helpful. But if you're on a shoestring budget you likely have other priorities.

    Someone recommended searching for a lawyer in your zip code. I recommend you instead search for a lawyer with expertise hopefully with both (1) Internet issues and (2) your niche.

    I don't want this to be considered a self-serving post, so I recommend you contact Mike Young at Internet Lawyer - Texas

    You can also contact Bob Silber at http://internetmarketinglawproducts.com

    Let them know I gave the recommendation.

    Mike only handles non-litigation issues like this. Myself, I like to argue in the courtroom.

    Bob will periodically post here in the forum.

    One of the first concerns will be making sure you own what you think you own.

    You stated "contractors" designed and built your site. This last week there were a couple threads about this and the US copyright requirements to have a written agreement that the contractors' work is a "work for hire". You need that to own the work they created.

    .
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4070630].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author lurky
      Thanks kindsvater
      re; the first link you posted, on Mike young's contact page, the captcha image is broken, not a good sign. Do you have a direct email address? thanks

      Can anyone else recommend an internet business lawyer?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4076355].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RobertoMejia
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      Having a lawyer can be very helpful. But if you're on a shoestring budget you likely have other priorities.

      Someone recommended searching for a lawyer in your zip code. I recommend you instead search for a lawyer with expertise hopefully with both (1) Internet issues and (2) your niche.

      I don't want this to be considered a self-serving post, so I recommend you contact Mike Young at Internet Lawyer - Texas

      You can also contact Bob Silber at Internet Marketing Law Products

      Let them know I gave the recommendation.

      Mike only handles non-litigation issues like this. Myself, I like to argue in the courtroom.

      Bob will periodically post here in the forum.

      Thanks this is some great information. I've been wanting to have someone take a look at my site and advice if there are legal "holes." I am just starting out, so I am not ready to dish out a lot of money, but I do want to dot my i's and cross my t's.
      Signature
      Free ecommerce site - Sell products free, shop our products. Bootic, improving ecommerce.
      Auto Build It - Create marketing websites quickly and easily with Auto Build It
      Viral Monopoly Review - Create Viral traffic to your website with Viral Monopoly
      Mass Profit Sites Review - Create affiliate sites loaded with fresh content at the push of a button
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4077037].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Meharis
        Originally Posted by RobertoMejia View Post

        Thanks this is some great information. I've been wanting to have someone take a look at my site and advice if there are legal "holes." I am just starting out, so I am not ready to dish out a lot of money, but I do want to dot my i's and cross my t's.

        I believe the best way will be to join "Prepaidlegaldotcom"(No Affliate Link"
        and you'll be save with little cost.
        Meharis
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4078016].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Targeted Traffic
    Also try to read on your rights - the basic constitutional and civil...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4079145].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author lurky
    Thank to everyone for answering my post, I realize it was a few months ago. In one reply someone mentioned that it was a good idea to get contractors to sign an agreement relinquishing all rights to finished work. I did not do this for version 1 of my site and I will soon hire them again for version 2. However, I checked with the hiring site, Odesk, and they require all contractors to sign an agreement, I'll post a link to the relevant part below. This seems to address the problem, unless anyone happens to know that these areemeents themselves are being challenged and overturned?
    Thanks

    see section 3.6
    https://www.odesk.com/help/help/poli...ement#contract
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4407281].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author pbarnhart
      Originally Posted by lurky View Post

      Thank to everyone for answering my post, I realize it was a few months ago. In one reply someone mentioned that it was a good idea to get contractors to sign an agreement relinquishing all rights to finished work. I did not do this for version 1 of my site and I will soon hire them again for version 2. However, I checked with the hiring site, Odesk, and they require all contractors to sign an agreement, I'll post a link to the relevant part below. This seems to address the problem, unless anyone happens to know that these areemeents themselves are being challenged and overturned?
      Thanks

      see section 3.6
      https://www.odesk.com/help/help/poli...ement#contract
      As someone (a non-lawyer) who has done quite a bit of contracting in the past, and has been on both sides of the legal table on copyright, ownership, and patent issues, I would say the oDesk is a bit one-sided. Do you really expect a contractor in the Philippines to "assist Employer in every proper way to obtain and enforce the Proprietary Rights and other legal protections for the Work Product in any and all countries" without any additional compensation?

      If you want work-for-hire, the agreement must be made directly between the two parties prior to work commencing, and must at least one of the nine narrow statutory categories of commissioned works list in the Copyright Act: a translation, a contribution to a motion picture, contribution to a collected work (like a magazine or the text of a blog), test answer material, an atlas, a compilation, instructional text, or supplementary work (like a forward or an index). Note that software applications, novels, etc do not fall into these categories and cannot be work-for-hire by an independent contractor.


      In the real world, website developers use reusable libraries, code snippets, and worked-out examples to achieve their employer's or client's goals. One obvious reading of the oDesk agreement:

      ...hereby grants, to Employer an exclusive (excluding also Contractor), perpetual, irrevocable, unlimited, worldwide, fully paid, and unconditional license
      Developers and programmers reuse clips of code, database schemas, javascript functions, etc. According to the oDesk agreement, I couldn't even show or forward a potential employer a code snippet written under this agreement.

      to the extent Contractor cannot waive such rights, Contractor agrees not to exercise such rights, until Contractor has provided prior written notice to Employer and then only in accordance with any reasonable instructions that Employer issues in the interest of protecting its rights.
      One reading would be if I use jQuery as part of an implementation of your site, I would have to give you written notice that I wanted to use jQuery for another client.

      The end result of such an extreme, limiting agreement is that practically every contractor retained under it ignores it. And I for one would never, ever grant an exclusive license to PHP or Javascript code I wrote, CSS I designed, or a database schema I created. First, I need to continue to make a living, and that set of text classes I wrote - well if written well should be partially reusable for a lot of other applications. Also, because chances are I based the work on examples, snippets, code libraries, and other freely-available resources. To expect such an assignment or restriction is to attempt to prevent the developer from practicing their craft. You might as well ask a tailor to grant you exclusive rights to a particular stitch they use.

      Finally, using the oDesk-style agreement to develop, for example, a Wordpress-powered site is on its face ridiculous. 99% of the code, plugins, templates, and functionality is derived from an open-source application and cannot be restricted. Only the photos, CSS, and text could in any way be copyrighted.

      Chances are pretty good I couldn't give you "all rights" even if I wanted to. If I use open-source or free resources like PHP, Javascript, MySql, Wordpress, Drupal, HTML, etc - I don't have those rights to grant.

      Liberal agreements that grant you the customer a nonexclusive, perpetual worldwide license would be appropriate. And forget about boilerplate. Ask for individual assignment of copyright for text that is written, primary art that is created, etc. Require full documentation and disclosure of any open-source, Creative Commons, and other free resources. Want to protect yourself? Require a reasonable non-compete of a reasonable set of time. I wrote a pretty spiffy ajax-based calculator for a manufacturer. In my agreement, I agreed to not write a similar calculator for anyone in the same industry worldwide for two years. I certainly would NOT agree to never ever write another ajax-based calculator using the sliding bar code. Why would you hire a developer based on their portfolio, if they could never produce another?

      In the end, the web works because of the incredible wealth of free tools, resources, instructions, software, templates, art, and other expressions of creative effort. Rather than asking how tight can I grip on to the fruits of all these free and open resources, we should ask how can I recognize those creative individuals and companies that give so much away, how can I help promote and encourage professionals who design, develop, and deliver websites and applications that help my business succeed, and what can I contribute to the community while I profit and grow in this rich environment.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5632467].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author JOSourcing
      Banned
      Originally Posted by lurky View Post

      Thank to everyone for answering my post, I realize it was a few months ago. In one reply someone mentioned that it was a good idea to get contractors to sign an agreement relinquishing all rights to finished work. I did not do this for version 1 of my site and I will soon hire them again for version 2. However, I checked with the hiring site, Odesk, and they require all contractors to sign an agreement, I'll post a link to the relevant part below. This seems to address the problem, unless anyone happens to know that these areemeents themselves are being challenged and overturned?
      Thanks

      see section 3.6
      https://www.odesk.com/help/help/poli...ement#contract
      By using a service that dictates the circumstances under which work is performed and rights are assigned, you are protected. That's one of the benefits of outsourcing through sites like these.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5632852].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author pbarnhart
        Originally Posted by JOSourcing View Post

        By using a service that dictates the circumstances under which work is performed and rights are assigned, you are protected. That's one of the benefits of outsourcing through sites like these.
        While outsourcing services such as oDesk. vWorker and other services provide a cost-effective way to get projects done, these agreements provide little or no protection over intellectual property disputes. oDesk's response is limited to withholding worker pay and seizing pending funds in the event of a dispute. Most outsourcing companies provide little or no assistance if you have an IP problem. You are on your own!

        Are you really going retain legal resources in the Philippines, Pakistan, or Latvia? Remember all the verbiage over the relationship with the outsourced worker - that everything is work-for-hire or full assignment? That means if there is a copyright or intellectual property dispute, the contracting party is usually stuck. For example, if outsourced worker X uses the same templates, artwork, and code for both you and Acme Inc., your dispute and legal actions are against Acme Inc. You have the almost impossible task of fighting Acme Inc. - perhaps limited to a DMCA action. Worker X, and oDesk, have no role in the dispute.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5634885].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author JOSourcing
          Banned
          Originally Posted by pbarnhart View Post

          While outsourcing services such as oDesk. vWorker and other services provide a cost-effective way to get projects done, these agreements provide little or no protection over intellectual property disputes.

          oDesk's response is limited to withholding worker pay and seizing pending funds in the event of a dispute. Most outsourcing companies provide little or no assistance if you have an IP problem. You are on your own!
          At the very least, the service agreements at these sites identify who is and isn't responsible for a violation should disputing parties take a violation to an outside court. These are legal documents that can and will assist as necessary (see below regarding 'where'). They lay the foundation, so to speak, for a viable case -- so they shouldn't be so easily disregarded.

          Originally Posted by pbarnhart View Post

          Are you really going retain legal resources in the Philippines, Pakistan, or Latvia?
          That isn't necessary. The agreements at these sites specify its freelancers provide services under U.S. laws. Any foreigner continuing to work through sites like Elance, vWorker, oDesk, etc. is expected to have acknowledged and followed the conditions outlined in those U.S. law-based agreements. That doesn't mean there aren't unscrupulous workers who disregard the law, which is why I always caution outsourcers about hiring outside of their own jurisdiction, but the structure is there, and it gives weight to an outsourcer's right to assume the law will be followed.

          Originally Posted by pbarnhart View Post

          Remember all the verbiage over the relationship with the outsourced worker - that everything is work-for-hire or full assignment? That means if there is a copyright or intellectual property dispute, the contracting party is usually stuck. For example, if outsourced worker X uses the same templates, artwork, and code for both you and Acme Inc., your dispute and legal actions are against Acme Inc. You have the almost impossible task of fighting Acme Inc. - perhaps limited to a DMCA action. Worker X, and oDesk, have no role in the dispute. Worker X, and oDesk, have no role in the dispute.
          Actually, you'll have a claim against the service provider (contractor) depending on what was stipulated in the contract. This stuff isn't always so cut and dry, making clear contract provisions extremely important. Some parts of a contract are licensed instead of outright sold. But assuming that both you and ACME, in this instance, did not license anything from the contractor, and instead, worked with a contract that clearly defined intellectual properties as purchased items, you are innocent parties to a contract violation by the provider.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5635292].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author pbarnhart
            Originally Posted by JOSourcing View Post

            Actually, you'll have a claim against the service provider (contractor) depending on what was stipulated in the contract. This stuff isn't always so cut and dry, making clear contract provisions extremely important. Some parts of a contract are licensed instead of outright sold. But assuming that both you and ACME, in this instance, did not license anything from the contractor, and instead, worked with a contract that clearly defined intellectual properties as purchased items, you are innocent parties to a contract violation by the provider.
            Absolutely correct. Which is why the oDesk contract is the problem, since it is an ownership/license arrangement. And while you may be innocent in terms of damages, if ACME acquired first then the assumption of ownership falls to them. You would still end up on the wrong end of a C&D action or DMCA takedown. Only then, after the damage is done, could you take an action against the contractor. And if you sue a Lithuanian contractor in US court, exactly how are you going to collect? In reality, you are stretched over the barrel.

            Any foreigner continuing to work through sites like Elance, vWorker, oDesk, etc. is expected to have acknowledged and followed the conditions outlined in those U.S. law-based agreements.
            Sure. And again, that does nothing to protect you in an IP claim or dispute. If you are producing something with significant, valuable intellectual property value, use local contractors.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5636446].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sadel678
    If you like to be protected you must get a lawyer.I dont know whether you are serious about you business. if you are serious you must get a lawyer.lawyers can give you many suggestions for your business and project you by law.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5632229].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    You should check out Lawyers.com.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5632709].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author arny660
    My initial reaction was, no, you don't really need a lawyer when you are just starting out. However, having read your post again, and the comments above, I would now say, yes, go get a lawyer, as your business may get a little tricky. Just make sure that you get the best one that you can afford. Good luck, lurky.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5636513].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author biffula
    I use this sites stuff. It was recommended to me. I have no affiliation with it. It's good stuff and boilerplate. Not the same thing as paying big bucks to come up with your own personalized package, but more than adequate. autoweblaw dot com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5646071].message }}

Trending Topics