FBI Seizes Servers at Digital One In US,

13 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

I read that and couldn't believe it when I read it and now, finding out they were only interested in one site ...

what a bunch of assmonkeys ... the FBI.

Yeah, FBI... I'm talking to you. Unprofessional bunch of stupid cows.

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Ernie Lo 13 years ago

You either want government involvement online or you don't...as you can see there is NO in between.

I knew crap like this would happen.
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- VanessaB 13 years ago
  
  Are dedicated servers even safe from this?
  
  -Dani
  
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  CDarklock 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by DanielleS
  
  Are dedicated servers even safe from this?
  
  Somewhat. When the FBI has a warrant to seize a site, they can and do seize every single computer anywhere in the facility that has any of that site's data on it.
  
  So anything you share with other people, they take. And the people sharing it with you can just suffer.
  
  A dedicated server itself would be safe - none of the other site's data is on it - provided they can readily identify your server as being unrelated.
  
  See, when the FBI walks in and says "We need the server that hosts nastysite.com right now," and the hosting provider says "we don't know which one that is," they say "take it all." They might mean all the servers in this rack, all the racks in this row, or even every single machine in the DC.
  
  So you want a host that when the FBI walks in and says "which of these machines hosts nastysite.com?" the IT guy on duty looks at his screen, points, and says "that one; here, I'll show you."
  
  Because God help you if the moron says "I don't have to tell you anything" to the FBI. Oh, yes you do, and we'll make sure nobody who works here will ever forget it.
  
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- sbucciarel Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo
  
  You either want government involvement online or you don't...as you can see there is NO in between.
  
  I knew crap like this would happen.
  
  That's not in the least bit true. I'm all for the FTC regulations and the lawsuits that are putting scammers out of business.
  
  This is entirely different. To confiscate servers with businesses on them that you are not seeking and who are not breaking any laws is a big overreach of power.
  
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  VanessaB 13 years ago
  
  I have to agree with Suzanne.
  
  It's irresponsible to expect either extreme.
  
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  Ernie Lo 13 years ago
  
  deleted- Ive decided to respect the rules of this forum...
  
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Fernando Veloso

13 years ago

Time to take sites out of USA. Simple as that. Things will get worst.

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Mar 13 years ago

It's times like this I know it makes good sense to pay for off-server backups of my sites. The trouble is, I only do this for one server - I'm going to think hard about doing it for my others.

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JohnMcCabe

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

That's not in the least bit true. I'm all for the FTC regulations and the lawsuits that are putting scammers out of business.

This is entirely different. To confiscate servers with businesses on them that you are not seeking and who are not breaking any laws is a big overreach of power.

Suzanne, I don't think it's so much an overreach of power as it is a lack of finesse. Kind of like driving a carpet tack with a sledge hammer.

I would imagine that, by grabbing the physical server, they were trying to preserve a chain of evidence.

It sucks if you were one of the other businesses housed on the server, but somehow I doubt that there was any malicious intent. The agents grabbing the evidence likely didn't care enough about what else was on the server to harbor any malicious intent or house any grandiose notions of power.

To everyone else...

A lot of your posts are skirting dangerously close to the 'no politics' rule that will get this thread nuked.

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VanessaB

13 years ago

Politics have so much influence over business, how can we discuss one without the other when we're all facing the political agenda's and their consequences to our own businesses?

-Dani

P.S. Only as they 'relate to business'. This is not a suggestion that we take up any of the other 'social issues' discussions.

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Kay King

13 years ago

The linked article is a rehash of an article from the NYTimes from last week.

This is not a "they're out to get us" scenario. It's part of a global investigation into a major hacking organization that has invaded the computers of several governments and has accessed personal financial details of millions of credit card holders of several major banks.

If the FBI raids your home or office - they take anything and everything that might have any potential relationship to the crime committed. This is the same - no need for surgical precision. Just take it all and sort it out later.

I think also there's a message to companies allowing their servers to be used for criminal activity - and I think that message is deliberate. The focus is on finding those responsible for the hacking - and anyone who allowed or aided the hacking activity (providing the servers).

kay

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PMinc 13 years ago

We really need some kind of iron-clad legislation that protects online properties from being treated as lesser in value than their brick and mortar counterparts.

Say one of those sites sold shoes online. If the FBI were to torch a brick and mortar shoe outlet, there'd be an uproar.

And then there's Google...if they have a problem with you, they shut you down...usually without hearing you out and usually swiping your money in the process.

Goes to show that the Internet is still in its "wild west" phase.
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Istvan Horvath

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

If the FBI raids your home or office - they take anything and everything that might have any potential relationship to the crime committed. This is the same - no need for surgical precision. Just take it all and sort it out later.

Maybe... it just reminded me of an event that happened in 1209 during a crusade against Cathars. When the soldier asked how to distinguish the Cathars from Catholics, he was told:

"Kill them all and let God sort them out."

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Danielle,

Politics have so much influence over business, how can we discuss one without the other when we're all facing the political agenda's and their consequences to our own businesses?

That's an excellent question. The problem is, too many people confuse the concepts and get the wrong kinds of nasty, bashing everyone and anyone who has a different perspective than them on any part of the issue. It gets vicious, and it ends up insulting somewhere between 40% and 60% of the membership.

There are a whopping great lot of people in this group (and most other groups these days) for whom the concept of respectful disagreement is anathema. It's not unknown... It's actively rejected.

We could always let people talk until they hit that point, but that would lead to even bigger arguments, of a kind that never stop. So, we don't allow it at all. No-one hates that more than me, but the reality is such that failing to enforce that rule would destroy the spirit of this forum within weeks. It's poison.

Paul

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VanessaB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Danielle,That's an excellent question. The problem is, too many people confuse the concepts and get the wrong kinds of nasty, bashing everyone and anyone who has a different perspective than them on any part of the issue. It gets vicious, and it ends up insulting somewhere between 40% and 60% of the membership.

There are a whopping great lot of people in this group (and most other groups these days) for whom the concept of respectful disagreement is anathema. It's not unknown... It's actively rejected.

We could always let people talk until they hit that point, but that would lead to even bigger arguments, of a kind that never stop. So, we don't allow it at all. No-one hates that more than me, but the reality is such that failing to enforce that rule would destroy the spirit of this forum within weeks. It's poison.

Paul

Thank you Paul. I understand the reason, my question was more 'what is the solution?' oriented. The Google FTC thread has become entirely political, and I've actually felt insulted by some of the statements made in it, so I see where you're coming from.

I support the rule and I'm not challenging it or lobbying (pun intended

) to get it changed. I'm just wondering how to actually deal with the question.

-Dani

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kindsvater

13 years ago

Backup ideas to consider for your website files:

1. The 'cloud'.

2. Your home computer.

3. DVDs stored at another location, such as a safe deposit box.

A couple years ago a fire at The Planet knocked out many domains for days. You never know what might happen.

.

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Michael Mayo

13 years ago

Hurricanes, Tornados, Earthquakes, Fires, Floods, tsunamis, High winds...
the list goes on.

It seems like we've all had our share of these this past year or so.
It would be wise to keep backups of your sites in a different location than
where your sites are hosted.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

Originally Posted by kindsvater

Backup ideas to consider for your website files:

1. The 'cloud'.

2. Your home computer.

3. DVDs stored at another location, such as a safe deposit box.

A couple years ago a fire at The Planet knocked out many domains for days. You never know what might happen.

.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Dani,

Thank you Paul. I understand the reason, my question was more 'what is the solution?' oriented.

There is none that will work in this environment, other than simply not allowing the discussions.

Being a very political animal, I hate that. Just one of life's sharp corners, though.

Paul
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- Lloyd Buchinski 13 years ago
  
  Well it was a surprise that the company didn't have back ups it could launch on a new host.
  
  It does remind me of that little human intelligence problem. It's not even a political issue. Even with people I work with, sometimes the people with authority go overboard with a lot of things they do.
  
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Black Hat Cat

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Danielle,That's an excellent question. The problem is, too many people confuse the concepts and get the wrong kinds of nasty, bashing everyone and anyone who has a different perspective than them on any part of the issue. It gets vicious, and it ends up insulting somewhere between 40% and 60% of the membership.

There are a whopping great lot of people in this group (and most other groups these days) for whom the concept of respectful disagreement is anathema. It's not unknown... It's actively rejected.

We could always let people talk until they hit that point, but that would lead to even bigger arguments, of a kind that never stop. So, we don't allow it at all. No-one hates that more than me, but the reality is such that failing to enforce that rule would destroy the spirit of this forum within weeks. It's poison.

Paul

Sounds like the forum is made up of a lot of babies who need a babysitter. No wonder the nanny state is so popular these days.

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Cat,

Sounds like the forum is made up of a lot of babies who need a babysitter.

If people behaved in a restaurant the way some folks act when discussions here turn political, they'd be thrown out.

That said, how does expressing a desire that disagreements be civil equate with some sort of "nanny state" mentality?

Paul
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RemyMartin

13 years ago

Originally Posted by DanielleS

Politics have so much influence over business, how can we discuss one without the other when we're all facing the political agenda's and their consequences to our own businesses?

-Dani

P.S. Only as they 'relate to business'. This is not a suggestion that we take up any of the other 'social issues' discussions.

Politics I$ a business, my friend.

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Suzanne, I don't think it's so much an overreach of power as it is a lack of finesse. Kind of like driving a carpet tack with a sledge hammer.

I would imagine that, by grabbing the physical server, they were trying to preserve a chain of evidence.

It sucks if you were one of the other businesses housed on the server, but somehow I doubt that there was any malicious intent. The agents grabbing the evidence likely didn't care enough about what else was on the server to harbor any malicious intent or house any grandiose notions of power.

To everyone else...

A lot of your posts are skirting dangerously close to the 'no politics' rule that will get this thread nuked.

It sucks hard when you're one of the legit businesses who get taken down for an indefinite period of time. They have the technology to come in and just clone the server in question and then run their investigation with no harm to legit businesses. Having a website on your server that may be doing something illegal is not proof that the host was aware of this, so I don't buy necessarily that they were knowingly "harboring" a criminal enterprise.

But let's say they might have been. Lulzsec is hosted on Cloudflare ... who is registered in San Francisco. Why haven't they been taken down?

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JohnMcCabe

13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It sucks hard when you're one of the legit businesses who get taken down for an indefinite period of time. They have the technology to come in and just clone the server in question and then run their investigation with no harm to legit businesses. Having a website on your server that may be doing something illegal is not proof that the host was aware of this, so I don't buy necessarily that they were knowingly "harboring" a criminal enterprise.

But let's say they might have been. Lulzsec is hosted on Cloudflare ... who is registered in San Francisco. Why haven't they been taken down?

Cloning the server would not have preserved the chain of evidence. Physical possession of the server, with proper documentation, would. Many of the rules of evidence predate the Internet age.

For that matter, what prevented the host from simply bringing another server online, minus the site being investigated? Or even without any sites sharing common ownership? Downtime can't be laid purely at the feet of the FBI.

I don't recall saying anything about harboring a criminal enterprise.

As for Lulzsec or Cloudflare, I can't tell you. I wasn't invited to that meeting...

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Cloning the server would not have preserved the chain of evidence. Physical possession of the server, with proper documentation, would. Many of the rules of evidence predate the Internet age.

For that matter, what prevented the host from simply bringing another server online, minus the site being investigated? Or even without any sites sharing common ownership? Downtime can't be laid purely at the feet of the FBI.

I don't recall saying anything about harboring a criminal enterprise.

As for Lulzsec or Cloudflare, I can't tell you. I wasn't invited to that meeting...

You're right about that ... the chain of evidence thing, and it was Kay who mentioned that they were harboring a site that is suspect.

Can't argue with a guy holding a fish, being an avid fisherwoman myself.

As for the Lulzsec thing ... why weren't you invited to the meeting?

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tpw 13 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

You're right about that ... the chain of evidence thing, and it was Kay who mentioned that they were harboring a site that is suspect.

This story could have easily been avoided, if only the hosting company ran its backup servers in a different data center.

When one data center goes down, where are the backups? On the same server? That sounds counterproductive to me... :rolleyes:
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bretski

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Cloning the server would not have preserved the chain of evidence. Physical possession of the server, with proper documentation, would. Many of the rules of evidence predate the Internet age.

I believe that the servers wouldn't actually be touched and creating a clone would be the next step. That clone would be what all the investigation would be conducted on... at least that's how it works with hacking. the hacked box is preserved and the clone or copy is what is worked on.

Sucks for those that don't have a copy of their site... not sure if Google cache would be of any help... just thinking out loud...

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GarrieWilson

13 years ago

OK but how are you going to turn this into a positive for you?

Going to blog about it and promote a backup solution, a mirrored host so you can quickly be back online?

How about the dangers of having all sites on one server? The dangers of shared hosting?

Garrie

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VanessaB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

OK but how are you going to turn this into a positive for you?

Going to blog about it and promote a backup solution, a mirrored host so you can quickly be back online?

How about the dangers of having all sites on one server? The dangers of shared hosting?

Garrie

THIS!

Lemons-Lemonade.

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seobro

13 years ago

OK can you imagine a whole mall being shut down including the grocery, including sears. Just because a little kiosk was selling rorex reprica. I mean c'mon. This is reason to move your site over seas.

Hey, all the factories have shut down and move over seas. All the web designers and programmers are over seas. I see the servers moving soon.

Time to get with the program - pun.

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VanessaB

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seobro

OK can you imagine a whole mall being shut down including the grocery, including sears. Just because a little kiosk was selling rorex reprica. I mean c'mon. This is reason to move your site over seas.

Hey, all the factories have shut down and move over seas. All the web designers and programmers are over seas. I see the servers moving soon.

Time to get with the program - pun.

I've been held hostage in a HOSPITAL, by police, with a sick 2 year old who had been released, until 2am, with nowhere to get him to sleep, and a lot of commotion (when I finally snuck out the back side of the building where someone picked me up with their car and no car seat and had to ride home with my child in my lap) because a guy in a building across the street from the hospital was threatening to commit suicide.

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brunom

13 years ago

They simply have too much power, and the problem is that the people who had their sites shut down without doing anything have no means of defending themselves. It's a real shame.

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brunom

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Kent

US offers the best hosting deals, I don't see many people moving out of the US fast.

That's another big issue. If we had good, viable alternatives, it'd be much easier to move to other countries, but if you're looking for something reliable, then you'll probably have to settle with staying in the US.

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enterpryzman

13 years ago

I lost a site completely about 5 years ago because of a similar thing. In the end, I found out that one of the servers contained stolen credit card details ( nothing to do with me ) and all the servers got confiscated.

I had about 1000 paying clients at the time and never was able to access my back ups or re-launch the site ( I was not smart enough to back up off line ). This cost me a great deal of money in refunds and when I figured out how to re-launch the site, another site had taken over the niche. My site never had more than about 100 paid ads after that.

Enterpryzman

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celente

13 years ago

yes yes, these elite these days think they can do anything. I think we are going to hear abotu more of this.....

hang on...... there is a KNOCK at the door.... i will be back....

*loud scream and shouting heard* oh oh. lol.

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Daniel Brock

13 years ago

This is nothing new.

There was a story back in 2003 or so that the FBI shut down an entire datacenter over 1 server. They not only shut it down, but confiscated hundreds of servers if I remember correctly.

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damoncloudflare

13 years ago

But let's say they might have been. Lulzsec is hosted on Cloudflare ... who is registered in San Francisco. Why haven't they been taken down".

We cover this issue on the CloudFlare blog. Given that my post count is still somewhat low, however, I can't post a link to it.

The short answer:
We do not believe it is our decision to determine what content may and may not be published.

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FBI Seizes Servers at Digital One In US, "Taking Tens of Clients Sites Down" When Only Wanting 1

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