An Open Letter To Allen & The Moderators

[cyndiek]

I am not commenting to agree or disagree. I will state however that I have learned a tremendous amount by reading the various posts on this forum. Whatever does happen related to controlling the posts, I hope that posts are still made and allowed for those of us that continue to learn day in and day out from this forum. Thank you for allowing me to comment.

[Keith Boisvert]

First, most members haven't been here long enough to see all the people Allen (the forum owner) has helped. He has given away more money than the WSO's will ever make if he charged for WSO's for the next 50 years.


Second, he has made millions (not from the forum or WSO's) and really don't need the money and the WSO's probably make the costs to run this forum about even. But less say he makes a million dollars for the WSO's...so what? Where else can you get the exposure to this many people for the lousy low cost WSO fee?

Exactly!! I have only been here a wee more than 2 years and seen it first hand. Hell, a few months ago I won a damn laptop by answering a question. Actually, it was a toss up between me and another member(Karl Warren) and Allen actually gave us BOTH a laptop. So his motives and generosity should never be in question! Hence the reason some warriors want to see the integrity and the experiences within the WF improve, so others will see the and receive the same benefits we have. This hands down is the best forum online for IM and I for one am forever grateful and indebted to this place.

~Keith

[Eric Lorence]

Originally Posted by Kim Standerline

100% different

You also got a lot of the very well known marketers posting as well such as John Reese etc.

They hardly visit now, I wonder why

Kim

Because they are busy making money probably...

Just the fact that so many members care enough to even participate in this thread shows that the system... with all it's flaws, is working just fine.

Though people with delicate sensibilities may disagree...

[Rachel Goodchild]

I'm no longer a daily peron on here
and haven't been for a while.
I pop on about once a week and browse and to be honest, despite what you say, the actual content of this place really hasn't altered in the two years I've been on here- in relation to numbers of people doing all those transgressions you mentioned
Perhaps it's more that we always beocme aware of fashionable transgressions, from time to time
those things you've mentioned have ALWAYS go on.

I am not sure about the moderator changes, but I do know for the most part we are all adults, and we can moderate to make this the place we want it to be

Originally Posted by zerofill

Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

It should be simple. The posted rules are the guide, but many will flag a thread because they simply don't agree, or they don't like that person.

I never worry about repeated questions. It bugs some people and they like to yell " Use the search feature".. Well, they could, but it may not be the most current answer to the question. Someone may have a completely different answer. This is a forum, a discussion, not a knowlege base. Subjects will
come up over and over as new people come and go.

Fully agree with both of you ... I have seen many useful threads go away that would have been very helpful to many including newbies, threads that had very valuable information.

They got gone because someone did not like the op or someone posting in the thread or the fact that it was very close to someone elses competition.

This is the way most forums actually run.. John Doe has been there since 1901 and he is smarter, knows more, and only likes certain people so what he says goes.. Eventhough John Doe is only a mod and not the forum owner. The exact reason I do not join forums ...

Spam or Junk threads anybody can see, but other information who is to say what is good or bad ?? Remember ones mans trash is another mans goldmine..

James

[Richard Odell]

Originally Posted by Eric Lorence

Because they are busy making money probably...

And perhaps its because of what is going on here at the moment, they don't want be associated with us?

-Rich

[Maurice Rigaud]

There were many valid points and possible solutions brought forth. But what we all must remember is that the old way of moderating needed a change. So Allen came up with self-moderating which we now have the power to use. We as committed members just need to use that power judiciously and fairly no matter how many posts you have as Michael Oksa alluded to.

Just a thought which might make sense or not...You know when you log in the first thing you see is a Warrior's Ad---why not make the first thing you have to see is the "Warrior Forum Rules - Please Read First!" and "Members are Moderators" threads only, then have members click accept function to abide, and then give access to the rest of the forum. I know it can be a pain but its a price to pay for all those who want to see the Warrior Forum continue to progress upwardly.

Another idea would be to have some type of function on the forum where if a member tries to posts a new thread the system does a check to see if that question or comment has been made already. If it has never then allow the new thread to post if it has then the member will be forced to go through the thread results to find their answer. Just throwing out some solutions to be helpful.

[rperales]

Personally...

..let us remember the time when a lot of new people come in here and
ask questions and instead of answering regardless of the question, that
person was put down..

Lazy, use the search button, etc..Heck at least they had the decency to
ask first..are they asking now?..

Shouldn't we say that we are getting what we had coming and now, the
bad out weighs the good..

Let's go back to answer questions regardless how many times we have
heard it before and may I say from different people mind you..

Perhaps the warrior forum should go back to in order to be here we had to have
made some purchase or use Host For Profit or something like that..

However, I personally prefer to make the Warrior Forum with a lot of classy
marketers like it used to be..wouldn't that be more productive?..

Answer, talk about, marketing and how to make money is my suggestions..

Only then can we out weigh the bad..

rey

[fm1234]

It's been going down since at least last summer, one big reason I'm not such a fixture here as I used to be. Ironically, when I posted about this previously I was piled on by members and censored by mods. (I think it's still in the "off topic" section of the old forum, if you care to go looking for it.)


Frank

[Richard Odell]

Originally Posted by rperales

Personally...

..let us remember the time when a lot of new people come in here and
ask questions and instead of answering regardless of the question, that
person was put down..

Lazy, use the search button, etc..Heck at least they had the decency to
ask first..are they asking now?..

Shouldn't we say that we are getting what we had coming and now, the
bad out weighs the good..

Let's go back to answer questions regardless how many times we have
heard it before and may I say from different people mind you..

Perhaps the warrior forum should go back to in order to be here we had to have
made some purchase or use Host For Profit or something like that..

However, I personally prefer to make the Warrior Forum with a lot of classy
marketers like it used to be..wouldn't that be more productive?..

Answer, talk about, marketing and how to make money is my suggestions..

Only then can we out weigh the bad..

rey

I know for sure what a privilege it is to be here - although I have not been a paragon of virtue in many circumstances.

I think however, this thread has really brought home to me how I may have behaved in the past and how I will conduct my way in the future.

Its a New Year and very much a new way of thinking - this forum has my pledge of decent conduct in the future - will anyone else wish to state theirs?

As a Warrior I do not wish to fall on my own sword - do you?

-Rich

[Neil Morgan]

Like others, I too have felt the winds of change and kudos to John for bringing it up.

I've been posting here myself less recently because my time is better spent elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I feel the problem is simply that many people are here to promote themselves, not to help others.

Who can blame them - it's free advertising to their target market.

The solution?

Ban sigs or at least charge for their use.

Cheers,

Neil

[R Hagel]

I just want to throw a coupla cents in regarding one specific idea that's being bandied about. Namely, paying to post.

Personally, I think that would create a nightmare.

Right now, there are people on this forum who feel they are entitled to post anything they want... and they throw an absolute fit when their posts get deleted. Imagine the size fit those folks would throw if one of their paid posts got deleted. *shudder*

Anyway, I do like the member moderation. Right now, maybe we have stuff slipping by because of the "social loafing" / bystander / diffusion of responsibility effect. That's where a little leadership would come in handy.

Personally, that's also why I sometimes will "call out" some of the stuff I see going on... that way, other members will take a look and see if they, too, think it's worth hitting the report button.

Cheers,
Becky

[Jonathan 2.0]

I don't see anything wrong with the forum.

[TiffanyDow]

Originally Posted by Kim Standerline

100% different

You also got a lot of the very well known marketers posting as well such as John Reese etc.

They hardly visit now, I wonder why

Kim

Kim, don't think they're not here just because they're not posting I know for a fact tons of "big names" lurk, use your questions to create their products, and PM back and forth.

In some instances, I know they are "scarce" because it looks good for them! Look at what people already posted - "They're busy making money," "They're too successful to be here..." but they ARE here...

They email me stuff like, "Look at these posts in the WF and create an eBook about this topic."

They email me and say, "PM me on WF because my email gets clogged."

They're here...they're watching, and they're using the WF.

[koolphoto]

I wholeheartedly agree with John and think that the forum needs a little more policing.

I think that the Warrior Special Offers forum is out of control especially now that people are using as John puts it, "hieroglyphics in titles". I don't think it should be allowed in titles or anywhere in a post. I think it is not attractive and it doesn't add anything to the quality of the title or post.

I think there needs to be some type of overseeing panel for the WSO forum. I think that there should possibly be a quality control panel formed that an WSO must be submitted to for review before it can be posted.

Or another idea is that anyone who wants to submit WSO's needs to have a higher post count then now which shows they are actually contributing to the community and know what they are talking about. I still think a panel needs to be set up to review maybe the first 5 to 10 WSO's of a contributor before they are allowed full WSO posting status whereby the panel would only need check out their contributing WSO on a long term basis of maybe once a year.

I also think that anyone who posts just to raise their post count should be put on a moderation status where their posts need to be approved.

This is a great forum but I think some are trying to take advantage of it without giving back to it.

[Robert Oliver]

I have been a member here for 3 years. I owe this forum for me
learning what I needed to know to start a business on the internet.
Most everything I learned was from here. Some good , some bad.
I have been cheated, spammed, and lost money on some of this
information, but it did not stop me from pursuing my goal of building
a internet based business. Thanks you Allen and the Warrior Forum
for this wonderful opportunity.

I have done my part and continue to do my part to report cheaters
and thieves as I see them. I usually send my observations to a couple
of members here as they seem to follow-thru and get things done.

I do agree that this forum has become a haven for spammers, and
thieves. As far as newbies go, I was one of them myself at one time.
I ask some very stupid questions myself. I think we all have at one time
or another. You do grow up in a short period of time once you have figured
out what goes on here. Its very easy to recognize the newbies who only
come here for quick financial gain. They all set a pattern.

We used to have fun with spammers, till the MODS deleted the thread. Sometimes
this just made my day and allowed me to refocus on what I had to do that day.
A little fun never hurt anyone.

If you want to quit being a victim of wso thieves, you just need to do some
homework before you by. A lot of the information now being sold in the wso
forum is rehashed, free information that can be found all over. Just use Google
and do some research. This will save your money and lots of aggravation. Watch
where there are a lot of newbie testimonials. Do not be the first to buy. Watch the
feedback for several days. This will save your money also.

A lot of what people are complaining about can be taken care of very easily. Just do
your part here as a member of this wonderful free source of information and
opportunity. If everyone who cares about this place just does a little bit, we can
all benefit and make a difference. Sure there will be some who take advantage
, but that is just society when you get all types of people together. Take responsible
for your own actions here and just do a little bit extra. I do not believe that the responsibility should be shouldered by a few. In the end Allen has the final say so.

Happy New Year To All

Here's to a great 2009

Robert

[skydivedad]

This whole thread reminds me of Archie Bunkers theme song "Those Were The Days". Just like Archie Bunker makes judgments about today by comparing it with anecdotal and selective memory snippets of some nonexistent "Past" and reality be damned. Yes the IM world is changing and so is the Warrior Forum. In my view the only reason it has stayed on top for all these years has been the ability of this forum to adapt and change to reflect the modern evolving face of Internet Marketing.

There are 100's of thousands of Internet Marketers who weren't around 2 or 3 years ago. I salute Allen's foresight and ability to change processes, systems, structure and the organization to better serve the IM community as a whole, as it is today.

I Salute those in this thread with the "Stones" to provide a dissenting voice, if there is an anecdotal change for the worse in this forum (IMHO) it's the snarky reaction to dissenting opinion and view points that aren't the typical "IM Group Think" that taints many of the threads recently. I counted several examples in this thread itself. I'm just as convinced, as you Old Timers lament it is not, that the Warrior Forum today is a better place than it was 2, 5 or 10 years ago. Maybe its because I'm way more emotionally invested in my business than I am with what goes on around here. I'm just as convinced I'll be reading snarky comments to my dissent shortly. If I lament a loss it's the lack of respect for the diversity of opinion that is the face of the 21st Century Internet Marketing Community and the lack of tolerance exhibited by many here with large Post counts.

All The Best
Paul

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by Elmer Hurlstone

I'm continually amazed at conclusions drawn without one iota of supporting evidence.

Elmer Hurlstone

That's what you typically get with troll-like posters

[Kim Standerline]

Fair comment Tiff

Originally Posted by TiffanyDow

Kim, don't think they're not here just because they're not posting I know for a fact tons of "big names" lurk, use your questions to create their products, and PM back and forth.

In some instances, I know they are "scarce" because it looks good for them! Look at what people already posted - "They're busy making money," "They're too successful to be here..." but they ARE here...

They email me stuff like, "Look at these posts in the WF and create an eBook about this topic."

They email me and say, "PM me on WF because my email gets clogged."

They're here...they're watching, and they're using the WF.

[MikeAmbrosio]

Remember "way back" in '06?

I keep forgetting how much this forum has grown over the years. Back in '99 or '00 when I joined:

- You had to pay to get access
- EVERY post was moderated and approved before you saw it. In fact, back then it was largely Paul Myers doing the moderating (if memory serves).

What we have here is not perfect. And due to the diversity of the people and personalities we have, there will NEVER be a perfect solution.

I like the way it is now. While I agree there's a bit more "noise", I believe most of that is because of how many members we have now as compared to even 2 years ago.

Maybe you have to dig a little more to get to the nuggets, but they're around.

Maybe the underlying reason for some of the complaints isn't really because the quality has gone down - maybe it's because we don't want to spend the time digging for the gold.

As for the self moderation - I think it's not perfect. I think we could all stand to be a little more proactive in flagging posts, etc.

That includes me

For now, I'm gonna go dig for some more gold.

Happy New Year!

[George Wright]

Hi,

If you look on the first page of the main forum you will find posts that should not be there.

Of course that is my opinion. I flagged them. They are still there so obviously my opinion is not shared by many.

This is still a great forum and I think Allen made a brilliant move with the War Room. The main page is not "it" anymore.

George Wright

[MikeAmbrosio]

Originally Posted by George Wright

Hi,

If you look on the first page of the main forum you will find posts that should not be there.

Of course that is my opinion. I flagged them. They are still there so obviously my opinion is not shared by many.

This is still a great forum and I think Allen made a brilliant move with the War Room. The main page is not "it" anymore.

George Wright

Thanks for the reminder George. I keep forgetting I am a member.

I highly recommend it to anyone.

[Terry Crim]

I don't post much anymore, too busy and the endless soap opera gets old after a while. Like this is the only world and if many of you can't get your word in here the world ends and all sorts of bad will happen to you. Got to say, it actually does not end and when you are gone noone gives a rats ass about it. LOL

This website is not a democracy and for those throwing suggestions around in the tone that you have anything to do with how this place runs, your throwing around imagined weight with no substance to it.

If Allen is reading this thread and is putting considerations to the suggestions maybe consider putting a price back on? Those of us that paid the life time fee way back when, put a hell of a lot more value on this forum and YOU then those that just come in and demand this or that and act like this is their own personal property.

I personally do not care which way or what if anything is done because I do have a life and family issues as well as business that balances me out. If I choose to post I post, If I choose to lurk I lurk... The opinions of certain people matter more to me than others and I read the forum as I always have. What interests me I read and/or follow up on and those that don't hold my interest I stop reading or don't read in the first place.

Over the years Allen has tried everything you can think of and most of the suggestions I have read follow under the been there done that. Some worked better than others but no matter which one was implemented there was always people that didn't like it, no matter which way it went.

Either you want rules and enforcement or you don't. After careful consideration and experimentation over the years that Allen has invested here, I have paid close attention to the results. Either way it went people didn't like but when there was moderators patroling the beaches here there was smooth steady streams of people that cared posting good content.

Times change as do the people, I was a moderator here for a period of time and for those that did not have the privledge of holding the reins I can tell you. What you see in the public posts is hundreds of times worse in private. The same lovely characters we all see and respect turn vicious and nasty behind what they think is closed doors. Threats, lawsuits and hole hell of bitchy winey 2 year olds come out because they did not get their way.

I can highly recommend to many of you if the opportunity does come to become a moderator please volunteer because that way you will see that what many of the suggestions given and ways you think the Warrior Forum operates... You will discover how it does run intimately and you will have the privledge of seeig the results of the implementation of those carefully chosen suggestions.

There is NOT a seminar, classroom or mentoring program that come close to what you will learn behind the scenes here at the Warrior Forum. It is not all candy canes and rainbows but the education you will get will allow you to charge 5 to 10 times what your current fee is for coaching. That is if you can handle it. Most quit the first day, fewer still last the week out.

Those that can last longer than 2 months are Warriors Elite in the true sense of the meaning at the Warrior Forum.

I have been a member since the unisol days and I will still be a member until allen closes the doors and deletes the site off the internet.

I survived being a moderator, WF addiction and every single stage this place has gone through since I became a member.

When you leave, people still keep posting. There maybe a few that post where did he/she go but for the most part they are more into themselves than you ever thought they were into you. Threats of not posting anymore or taking hiatus mean NOTHING except to you and are empty threats. If you want to leave then leave.

Posting about what should be done or demanding this or that fall on deaf ears, mainly the Demanding ones.

If you allow this suggestion to be accepted one thing that you may want to do is out post the negative with good constructive and when people give criticism about what you post, tone of your post or any number of criticisms. Take them into consideration and either alter the way you post or don't, your choice. Defending and going on long rants about why you are the way you are or exposay into apologising about hurting over sensitive feelings to completely acceptable posts. To me is silly and waste of time.

I just skip over those, because apparently I have the ability to do that.

Like it or hate it, people will accept you or they wont, the will like you or love you or not... You have no control over that, for the most part anyway.

Everyone comes from different place and reads through their own filters. What I have learned is most people do not have the same filters so will take things in ways you didn't mean. The ability to compose yourself in ways that the majority comprehend in the same or closest possible way will make you very well off.

Post here, build your skills and then go and put them to use OFF forum.

I don't have anything else to say about other things I have read in this thread.

Thanks,

- Terry

[Norma Holt]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

You know, there are so many ironies in this thread that I'm just sitting here
shaking my head at the whole thing.

For starters, while John makes very good points, the thread itself is still a
rant and something I think Allen and many other members are tired of.

It's kind of a no win situation. You're damned if you do and you're damned if
you don't.

Personally, and I mean this sincerely and from the bottom of my heart as
this is a New Year and I truly am trying to change my behavior, I honestly
don't know what you can post here anymore.

I make a post with tips on doing something and I get replies...

"This is a discussion forum, not a place to give tips."

I make a post on ways to organize yourself or think clearer and I get...

"This belongs on your blog or in Mind Warriors".

I make a post asking for help with something and I get...

"This belongs in the programmer's section."

I make a post about my success and I get...

"This is not a place to talk about your success. Nobody wants to hear it."
(though it seems many are excluded from this rule)

Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule. So ultimately
I decided that beginning this year, I'd make no more new threads to this
forum, since I don't know how to use it properly.

Instead, I will simply confine myself to answering simple and basic questions
that members have like, "How do I use article marketing for my blog?"
which in fact, I just responded to.

I'm hoping by adopting this new rule for myself, I can stay out of trouble.

There is a point to what I am saying and I'm going to make it.

I consider myself an intelligent person. But if I can't seem to make a post
here without people jumping down my throat for everything I say, then
maybe not all of the blame goes to the poster.

It's certainly something to consider.

As to the problems of this forum, heck. If I can't figure out how to create
a thread that doesn't get me blasted, then I certainly don't have the
answers to those problems.

I'll leave those to members who are a lot smarter than myself.

And now I'm going to go and answer some members questions and see
if I can maybe do some good around here.

Like Steven. I too have been shaking my head over the issue and points raised. While I greatly respect John Taylor and his wonderful contributions I also respect and enjoy those of Steven and the like. It is no fun having people breathing down your neck and removing your threads that were honest and forthright and usually on topic.

When certain threads of mine were persistently removed by a moderator who obviously took exception to things I raised and ditched my threads it took me about 6 months before I came back. At that time the forum had changed and so had the format.

I enjoy it now more than ever and although some of the topics are a little 'off topic' they shed a ray of light into a rather dull world at a time when humor and a little distraction from the gloom is not all a bad thing.

Checking out the forum is one of the first things I do now every day and I think if we report the bad posts and cut down on those who think it is just a place for handouts ( a few recently have been very concerning) I think we will still have a wonderful place to hang out, make friends, pass on advice, report on our activities and experiences and help those in need.

That's more than 2 cents worth, lets say 5 cents.

God bless

Norma

[Norma Holt]

Originally Posted by mjbmedia

It seems the main sticking point is some threads that are started for 'wrong reasons' ?

The War Room works fine right?

This may go down like a lead balloon but im gonna suggest it anyway.
How about charging a nominal fee for every thread started?
When people join, or at a set date for existing people, they have to deposit say $20 into their WF account. The OP pays $1 say from their account for each new thread made and each responder perhaps 'donates' a few cents as im really fed up of reading post after post of 'yes i agree' or 'great thread' with no content, again if you're giving good content in the post then a few cents is small change for the respectability you could gain from your considered responses.
If you want to post tips etc , sure you can but you pay for the exposure, if youre just blatantly spamming or self promotion with no real content then you pay for it and lose the thread and dont get a refund, if youre asking a question then surely its worth $1 to get the great answers normally recieved.

A lot of people are on here cos its free, and hats off to Allen and Co for that, but times are changing, when things are free, often theyre not respected.

Im away for 3 weeks now PC less on cruise,so i doubt if id be responding to anything said but its just another angle to consider.

Have a great New year

Crazy idea. I for one would leave.

Norma

[Norma Holt]

Originally Posted by Allen Graves

Yup - this place is NOTHING like it was a year ago. Defintely on a down.

Respectfully,
Allen Graves

Its all a matter of opinion. To me it is much more lively, interesting, helpful, friendly and a place I like to come. A year ago I left for more than 6 months because of the atmosphere and moderators in here.

Norma

[RevenueRabbi]

I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

anyone here understand what i mean?

[Terry Crim]

Originally Posted by BizBooks

I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

anyone here understand what i mean?

You can here too. On the top right of the thread there is a rating you can choose to rate the thread. In the search feature you can search by a whole lot of things including thanked posts and top posters etc etc..

You can also choose to not see specific people's posts. Say you don't want to see Steve's posts just add him to your ignore list and you won't see his posts anymore. There will be a place marker so if you choose to see what he wrote you can or remove him from your ignore list all together.

I use Steve as an example just cause. I know he loves the attention. LOL


- Terry

[Eric Lorence]

Originally Posted by BizBooks

I frequent another (non IM) forum (Fatwallet if you must know!) and there every thread gets rated..

then each member can pick "see threads rated positive" "see all threads"...

so you can easily pick the level of filtering you personally want. and change it anytime to see if you are missing any juuuicy threads

anyone here understand what i mean?

There is a rate thread function here, just not many people use it, or properly.

[tommygadget]

I love this forum. I sincerely do. In a previous life, I used to ship computers all over the country and pull my hair out with delivery problems, customer sc***ups, etc. I was looking for a better way. One day I bought an ebook (don't remember who's) and there was a link to this forum. I clicked on it and said "woah, this IS the place to be". I believed it then and I believe it now. I have tried hard to contribute and add value to this forum. I use the "report post" button whenever I see a pointless rant, a way off-topic thread, blatant spam, etc. I believe that if more of us did the same, there would be no reason for this thread at all. Sure you can bring back the mods., but if just a few more people would take the time to hit that button when the right time comes, we will do fine.

TomG.

[Joseph Ratliff]

John, you raise a very good point.

This forum is quite a respectable tool in the IM community...and that needs to be preserved.

[capriliz]

Originally Posted by koolphoto

I think that the Warrior Special Offers forum is out of control especially now that people are using as John puts it, "hieroglyphics in titles". I don't think it should be allowed in titles or anywhere in a post. I think it is not attractive and it doesn't add anything to the quality of the title or post.

As members/moderators, we can control the use of the hieroglyphics.

Just don't click through!

It won't take long for contributors to realize that the CTR drops or doesn't exist when the "weird" characters are used....attempting to grab our attention as though we are two year olds attracted to odd things.....oh, look at the blinking lights!

I have to admit that I am guilty of what Robin mentioned earlier. I don't have a high post count, so I figure my strike would not amount to much - I will just let one of the big guns get it. Time for me to be more responsible, also, if I enjoy this forum so much.

[Paul M]

Perhaps the current system isn't causing anymore of a problem than
the old one but rather the members themselves.

If you've been here for a while then you should know what spam, self
promotion and problematic posts/threads look like. So why are people
NOT using the report button?

I agree with most of what John has stated in the OP but we should all
take a little more responsibility and start using the report button more
often.


Pehaps we should ALL use our ranting time for cleaning up the forum...



-paul

[Paul Myers]

Les,

I think the idea is someone asks a question and someone replies with tips.

Not, that someone that takes it upon himself to decide what tips everyone else should be reading day after day,

This seems to be a matter of imposing a personal preference on a group. A lot of people like some of those "tips" posts, myself included. And it's a fairly safe bet that other people like the other ones.

If we limited things to "Question, then answer," we'd have an entirely different place. I don't think you'd like it much.

On the question of mods, I'm ambivalent. I don't see things as being all that different than they've ever been. Maybe more of what's always been here, but not much new in the way of trends.

Could we do better? Sure. That's always possible. Nearly any suggestion that's made will have pluses, but it will have minuses, too. Even if only due to conflicting sets of preferences. Member moderation tends toward balancing those in a workable way. Formal moderators are better for getting rid of the edge stuff, but tend not to be as well-balanced.

As an example, Les and I have very different philosophies about how a forum like this should be run. I was always very liberal in terms of what posts I allowed, and tended to whack people publicly for things I thought were outright wrong or damaging.

Les was much more conservative than me, more likely to nuke edgy posts, and tended to do his correction privately, if there was any conversation at all.

My way generated one set of complaints, and Les's generated a different set. Was one better or worse than the other? Depends on who you asked, and what their preference was. Objectively, they were just different views of the same goal.

Every moderator had this challenge, to the degree that their philosophy was visible in action. With member mods, there's room for balance, and there's room for abuse. Same as before.

The biggest challenge with the kind of rapid growth we see here lately is that the people joining for specific promotional reasons are more likely to be aggressively active than the folks joining for learning purposes. So, there's more of the abuse. The blatant stuff gets caught so well by the members now that it's barely noticeable. An even better point is that the load for that is spread among the whole group, rather than being on a small handful of people.

Member moderation also allows for a less benevolent use of Nathan's (I believe) suggestion for a "cabal" who act in concert to "manage" threads. Imagine a group of people deciding they were going to do this based on some agenda other than the good of the group. Wouldn't be difficult at all.

Always consider how your suggestions for good can be used for ill.

All of which is a long way of pointing out why I think John has hit the nail on the head in his focus on leadership. Assuming, that is, that you believe there's a need for something different than we've got now. I'm not sure about that, myself, but it's clearly a matter of preference, on which folks disagree.

The most obvious symbol of the way things could go is what John's calling "hieroglyphics" in WSO titles. Sure, it might work, especially if you use them to push the title area to two lines and get more "space" on the page. That's not the point.

The point is in how people view that section.

Whether that attitude needs adjusting is Allen's call. I don't personally like the mindset behind that stuff, but it's not my forum.

If the members want to adjust an attitude on something, there's a simple approach that goes a long way toward the goal. Call it a two-step program:

Don't do it.
Don't reward it.

Simple, eh?

If you object to the odd symbols in WSO titles, don't buy offers from people who use them. There's no point in PM'ing them and telling them why, since they're going to assume you're just griping, and wouldn't have bought anyway.

If the majority don't like it, and decide not to buy because of it, sales for those offers will drop. This will be noticed, at least by the smart folks.

Note: Unless it breaks the rules or is objectively destructive or damaging to the group, reporting it is usually just wrong. We can create group expectations, but we don't get to make the rules.

If you're going to object to something vocally, give logical reasons. "I don't like it" is fine for making personal decisions, but it's not a useful argument for convincing others. Learn to present your thoughts in a cogent fashion, and understand the difference between preference and fact.

Do that and - guess what? You're a leader.

If you think the place needs more of a certain thing, don't wait for someone else. Provide that thing yourself.

That's being a leader.

If you lead in a direction that no-one wants to follow, you're still doing what you think is right. That's better than most people do.

If we're talking about more formal leadership, that means the same thing, but from a central point: Setting expectations and standards. I think Allen has made those pretty clear. It's the job of the more senior folks here to remind people of them.

Sort of like John is doing with this thread.


Mike,

EVERY post was moderated and approved before you saw it. In fact, back then it was largely Paul Myers doing the moderating (if memory serves).

Yep. At that point, Allen and I were the only people who handled that stuff. I was the only moderator here for three years or more.

Like you, I don't see the big problem. Sure, things could use some fine-tuning. That's always been the case and it always will be. But I see more useful stuff posted now than ever before. More crap, too, but that's part of growth.

If you want to grow a prize steer, you'd better be able to handle a little bull____.


Terry,

This website is not a democracy

Amen.

A lot of people respond to that with silliness about censorship and other irrelevant arguments. Leaving aside the fact that this is a privately owned site, there's the bigger issue: For every person here, there's a set of preferences about how things should be done. Some of those are mutually exclusive, and some are ill-formed and unworkable. Allowing anything and everything is simply not practical.

So, there has to be some central authority. Since he owns the place, Allen is the logical person to assume that role.

I moderated digital forums for over 20 years. I have never seen one work that didn't have some central authority. One hopes that person is a benign dictator, but either way, they have to have the power - and use it when needed.

I have a very high tolerance for conversational chaos. Probably higher than most people. Still, if you want to focus on a topic, even a general one, you have to understand a simple fact of productivity:

Purpose imposes order.

Chaos is wonderful for creativity, but it sucks for taking effective action.

Again, it's all about balance. You have to find your own.


Paul

[rperales]

Personally...

..I gotta say about the past..we can go back and learn again from it because
that is the reason we are here on this thread..the way this forum have
gone down..again, isn't that the reason why we are on this thread?..

I'm going with what I have read on this thread, I haven't been around awhile...

If the past is worthless today..then how come people are always talking
about from the past like "Think and Grow Rich..amony others are they not from
the past..perhaps we should bring this up..This Is A Marketing Forum and we
want to keep it that way what else is there?..

I'd tell you that the reason this forum has gone down is not because of what is
happening today..it's what have been happeining in the past..You know, the
future comes after past.

There are a lot of good quality marketers right now they have a good
chance of bringing the vaue back up..just by doing good deeds and I mean good
as doing good deed wether you like the person that needs help or recent that
person..simply because it is the good deed that counts it gives value to the
world...

What merit is there to only love those who love you?

By the way..I am the last person to get caught living in the past..I live in the NOW
after many years of working on myself..

Personally...I am not a Marketer of any kind..but I know for a fact that going after
something that we want by just trying marketing will never happen to most folks
and the reason is?..We must first work on ourselves on what is keeping us from
getting what we want..

If we do our good deeds today...guess what will happen when today becomes the
past!

[Michael Mayo]

Hi Warriors,

I'm kinda in a hurry so I hope this makes sense.

I think the answer to self moderating the WF has a very simple solution
but you have to know what the flaw in the self moderation system is.

The flaw is the fact that threads which need to be reported/deleted are
not seen by enough Warriors to make something happen.

At present, Only the Warriors that see a problem report the thread or
post.

So, the solution is to make it known to many warriors that a thread has
been reported.

For example: Say a post gets reported and a Red Flag appears in the
thread title as a result. Or, a scrolling marque in the Main Forum is
populated with a link to the reported post/thread.

Warriors would see this and visit the thread to see what the problem is.
If it is a valid problem then the post/thread would be reported by many
Warriors. If the problem was not valid then there would be no action
except for the person that reported it.

Just my .02
Have a Great Day!
Michael

[sylviad]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

...The main forum is becoming a free for all with people posting...

• Threads that belong in the specialist forums
• The list could go on...

I agree that the forum has become inundated with many threads that offer little, if any, help. Introductions, forum beefs and open charities are good examples. Having special sections for certain topics is a good idea... IF those sections get sufficient traffic to see a timely response to your query.

I just checked the various other forums in comparison to this main one. All of them had 25 or less members whereas this one had 500+.

Now, which would you expect to be the best place to get a quick answer? I have posted a query on one forum but it took over a day to get an answer. In all, only 3 people responded and none of them fixed my problem. Anything I ask here gets answered within a few hours, minimum.

It would help significantly if there were some way to put more focus on those special sections and boost the traffic flow through them. Then, people might be more inclined to post there.

Sylvia

[John Taylor]

Sylvia,

The reason most people post in the main forum
rather than specialist forums is because they
can now get away with it.

The more people who show leadership by posting
in the correct forum, the busier those forums
will become.

John

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Sylvia,

The reason most people post in the main forum
rather than specialist forums is because they
can now get away with it.

The more people who show leadership by posting
in the correct forum, the busier those forums
will become.

John

True, but many times a very interesting post, certainly IM related got whisked off to the "Mind Warriors" section and died a slow death with lots of posts in the main forum asking where it went. Newbies would have benefited from those threads, but let's face it, the traffic is just not there. Imagine if you were monitoring 5 or more parts of this forum. It would be very time consuming to keep up and that's why I suspect people don't do it.

TomG.

[John Taylor]

Originally Posted by tommygadget

True, but many times a very interesting post, certainly IM related got whisked off to the "Mind Warriors" section and died a slow death with lots of posts in the main forum asking where it went. Newbies would have benefited from those threads, but let's face it, the traffic is just not there. Imagine if you were monitoring 5 or more parts of this forum. It would be very time consuming to keep up and that's why I suspect people don't do it.

TomG.

New members can still benefit from a thread
posted in a specialist forum, if they are
interested enough in the topic to take the
time to look.

People can spend their time as they choose.

I don't see that traffic is much of an issue,
unless, of course, you are looking for sig file
exposure.

John

[sylviad]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Sylvia,

The reason most people post in the main forum
rather than specialist forums is because they
can now get away with it.

The more people who show leadership by posting
in the correct forum, the busier those forums
will become.

John

Over the long term, perhaps, but when you need
an answer, you need it right then. You can't wait until
the other members decide to change their attitudes
and head directly to the right forum. That could take
months for everyone to catch up.

Those forums need to become popular first so people
WILL post there, but how do you do that? I have no
idea.

It's like when the forum first started with no members.
Something has to happen to get the ball rolling.

Sylvia

PS: Regarding your comment re traffic... of course it
matters. The more traffic, the more likely someone will
come along with the answer you need. As I said, I waited
over a day and still didn't get the right solution. Then,
the thread just slipped down into oblivion.

It's not always all about exposing your sig.

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I don't see that traffic is much of an issue,
unless, of course, you are looking for sig file exposure.

John

Ahh... a little cynical perhaps? Traffic IS an issue when time is an issue. I've posted several requests for help in the main forum and got rapid and useful feedback right away. That would not have happened if my threads were tucked away in another section of the forum. The threads in question also would not have been seen (maybe) by the people who provided the solutions because most people just drop in, look at a few of the new posts in the main forum and zip off. Also, consider this; many threads cross the boundaries of more than one section of the forum, so classifying them would also be a nightmare both for the posters and for those looking for the information.

TomG.

[Bev Clement]

Self moderation isn't working, even when a thread is removed, it often is put back. It takes time to read and report threads, and sometimes we don't have that time to do it.

But self moderation should also include knowing what is acceptable and what isn't.

If we know that a long post which isn't open to discussion should be in another area or on the blog, then we should post there ourselves.

On one side we should report threads which shouldn't be in the MF, but we using the same knowledge shouldn't post threads that we would report, if they didn't have our name on them.

Be responsible, post in the correct area, use the blog if you want to just put your thoughts, and don't report a thread because it doesn't belong, when you are doing exactly the same thing.

[Glenn Grundberg]

Originally Posted by robertdeangelo

In the interest of agreeing and raising my post count... I TOO AGREE :->

This is what John is talking about.

It's post #52 in this very thread, and this guy's NOT kidding! He only has 11 posts, and admits to posting a "me too" simply to raise his post count...

Yet the post is still here.

I reported it- anyone else want to step up?

LOL.

Gman

[Karen Blundell]

Originally Posted by MikeRogers

When you limit a member's post to "Just the facts, maam", as Sgt. Joe Friday might say, you deny yourself a glimpse into that Warrior's personality and all the threads become as dry as dust; not something many people want to keep coming back to. The forum begins to lose its stickiness as more Warriors just fade away.


MikeRogers

I couldn't agree more, Mike. I've been a member, admin, and moderator of several forums at some point and it is always the same thing. You can't please everyone so in the end you do the best you can.

I think this forum is excellent. I think compared to other forums, this one runs very well. Is it perfect? No. Are there some things that need to be improved? Probably.

But all in all, I'm impressed with this place. You know why? Because there are some really great people in here. It's the people who make a great community, and most of the people in this community are brilliant. And that is why I come here.

If I see a post I don't like or that doesn't interest me, I simply ignore it. Life is too friggin short to worry about trivial matters, don't you think, Warriors?

[Johnny Slater]

It's been reported enough that it got removed.

Originally Posted by Glenn Grundberg

This is what John is talking about.

It's post #52 in this very thread, and this guy's NOT kidding! He only has 11 posts, and admits to posting a "me too" simply to raise his post count...

Yet the post is still here.

I reported it- anyone else want to step up?

LOL.

Gman

[Terry Crim]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

But self moderation should also include knowing what is acceptable and what isn't.

Yes but most do not read the rules, especially new people that find their way here.

If we know that a long post which isn't open to discussion should be in another area or on the blog, then we should post there ourselves.

Good idea but after the fact posts by others I think is what is beign discussed. It is good for those that know what is and isn't appropriate and care to do that before they post that is great. Most aren't and I think that is what is a problem for many.

It is also confusing when there are many different forums and those that aren't sure just post in the MF because they don't know where or bother to post in the correct forum.

I don't know. I for one don't have time to be a cop and police the forums but it is great for those that do.

I enjoyed participating in this thread but I think I am at the end of any useful contributions. Have fun everyone and have a great New Year and beginning 2009!


- Terry

[tommygadget]

Also, we don't have any way to move the threads (in the self-moderated forum, that is) to the right sub-forum. That is a problem.

TomG.

[Paul Schlegel]

Originally Posted by NathanFalkner

Said another way: "Allen, you and the super moderators
are doing a really ****ty job approving WSO's." Isn't that
what you're really saying? Because the last time I looked,
WSO's are not moderated by members. They're submitted
and approved by Allen and/or a so-called 'Super Mod' like
Bryan Kumar and Michael Tracey. Are they doing THAT bad
of a job approving WSO's?

My guess is that if you and 4 or 5 of the former mods (who
generally had high post counts and had been members here
for years) were to collectively flag a thread or post, it would
vanish. That's your control right there. I'm not sure there's
really a need to change the system. Why don't you round up
a bunch of the former mods via PM or e-Mail, and create your
own little cartel whereby you will alert each other of what
threads and/or posts must be deleted, and then just go about
collectively hitting the 'report' button.

Problem solved, right? What am I missing here? (I'm asking in
a genuine way -- in fact, if you need one more person with
a high post count to hit the 'report' button, add me to the
e-mail distribution list with the daily list of threads that have
been selected for removal).

I'm kind of curious about that myself as I reported a WSO with pretty clear
evidence that there was very questionable activity going on in the WSO and it's still going on right now.

My next step was to contact someone who I thought might be able to escalate it, but I had no idea who that would be.

It was fairly depressing really when I saw the WSO continue to run.

Paul Schlegel

[sylviad]

Originally Posted by tommygadget

Also, we don't have any way to move the threads (in the self-moderated forum, that is) to the right sub-forum. That is a problem.

TomG.

Ooo. I can imagine what a mess we would have if just anyone could start moving threads around. That capability SHOULD only be available to the boss or a select few.

You can be sure some people would be moving things into wrong forums or moving threads that didn't need to be moved. Plus, you know goll-darned well some idiot would start messin' just to cause trouble - for the forum, for people they don't like, just because...

Sylvia