An Open Letter To Allen & The Moderators

[Steven Wagenheim]

Two posts I just read, after coming back from my inlaws for New Years,
really struck a chord with me...Paul Myers and David Schwartz.

David, I almost felt like I was reading what I've been feeling almost since
the day I arrived here. I must be the most stubborn cuss in the world to
keep doing this because let me tell you, it's not fun sometimes.

Paul, you make so much sense with your posts that I wish I had your wisdom
and ability to be rational about this.

The problem is, I can't.

I have knowledge to share, I share it.

I've written books here, but I'm told that they have no place here.

Yet, so many members thank me for those books. So many have learned
so much.

Yet, from others, I get torn to shreds.

I have finally caved in and in another post said that I would not be
starting any more threads here in the main discussion because I'm tired
of the BS.

I have people begging me to change my mind.

So here I am torn between saving my sanity (because this place will
surely drive me crazy if I keep doing what I've been doing) and helping
those I came here to help 2 years ago.

So now I'm further loaded down with the added guilt of feeling like I am
letting those people down because of my selfishness to not want to be
abused anymore for posting my "How I Made...." novels.

So I can't win either way.

All because of people here who have their own agenda and have decided
that "how to" posts don't belong here.

Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

You cannot talk about your success.
You cannot post how to threads.
You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

If these are unwritten rules then let's write them. Let the thread in the
main discussion area that has the rules of this forum actually post those
rules. Otherwise, people are going to keep making the same mistake
over and over until they get tired of the abuse.

It has nothing to do with moderation. It has nothing to do with self
moderation.

It has to do with knowing the rules. If people know the rules, and they're
printed in black and white, and they're forced to read them every single
day before they log into this place, THEN...if they blatantly violate those
rules...kick them out into the street.

One of two things will then happen. Either the people left will take the
hint and tow the line (posting only acceptable threads) or this place will
become a ghost town. It's that simple.

Maybe I'm more tolerant than most. I see a spam post, I report it. Other
than that, if the post offers valuable advice or even if it's just thought
provoking, I have no problem with it staying.

But that's just me and it's not my forum.

Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

Don't make people guess.

That's not a lot to ask.

[Terry Crim]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

Don't make people guess.

That's not a lot to ask.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html


It is the sticky at the top of the main forum. Says "Warrior Forum Rules" those are the ONLY official rules, the others people talk about are mostly self imposed by the members themselves.


- Terry

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by Terry Crim

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ead-first.html


It is the sticky at the top of the main forum. Says "Warrior Forum Rules" those are the ONLY official rules, the others people talk about are mostly self imposed by the members themselves.


- Terry

Then Terry, that is a HUGE problem because I get blasted for posts that
do not in any way violate any of those rules.

[HeySal]

Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics. Now we are relegated to what the heck is your favorite food, music etc idiocy. Real useful, real interesting. Yet the same people that were the cause of that censorship slammed on us in there are in the main forum breaking any and every rule there ever was. Go figure.

All we have done here is build a playground for meglomaniacs. And it didn't stop the whiners at all - just put them in control. Makes you really want to pay attention to all the "is this ethical" posts, LMAO.

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by NathanFalkner

I'd want to know if the three items Steven highlighted above are
considered unsuitable for the main discussion forum so that I can
adjust my own posting habits and also adjust my own use of the
'report' button. It would really be helpful to have some clarity, to
the extent any can be had, regarding those three items.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

You cannot talk about your success.
You cannot post how to threads.
You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

Don't make people guess.

That's not a lot to ask.

Well, if those rules were true, we would not have much of a forum, now would we?

TomG.

[Ouroboros]

Last time I looked there wasn't an option under the infractions for an "off topic" post.

Allen has defined the rules that he feels are important and they are there for everyone to see. Use the tools he has given us and quit trying to decide what is acceptable.

I was just reading a post in the main forum about "christmas presents", obviously an off topic post. Yet there have been 9 replies so far from people with well over a thousand posts.

They had the choice to report the post or reply to it...

sheesh, until Mr. Says tells me "your" rules are the rules, I'll go by his.

After all, It's HIS forum, he just let's us use it.

Steve

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Two posts I just read, after coming back from my inlaws for New Years,
really struck a chord with me...Paul Myers and David Schwartz.

David, I almost felt like I was reading what I've been feeling almost since
the day I arrived here. I must be the most stubborn cuss in the world to
keep doing this because let me tell you, it's not fun sometimes.

Paul, you make so much sense with your posts that I wish I had your wisdom
and ability to be rational about this.

The problem is, I can't.

I have knowledge to share, I share it.

I've written books here, but I'm told that they have no place here.

Yet, so many members thank me for those books. So many have learned
so much.

Yet, from others, I get torn to shreds.

I have finally caved in and in another post said that I would not be
starting any more threads here in the main discussion because I'm tired
of the BS.

I have people begging me to change my mind.

So here I am torn between saving my sanity (because this place will
surely drive me crazy if I keep doing what I've been doing) and helping
those I came here to help 2 years ago.

So now I'm further loaded down with the added guilt of feeling like I am
letting those people down because of my selfishness to not want to be
abused anymore for posting my "How I Made...." novels.

So I can't win either way.

All because of people here who have their own agenda and have decided
that "how to" posts don't belong here.

Last I looked at the Main Discussion rules I didn't see anything that said..

You cannot talk about your success.
You cannot post how to threads.
You cannot answer questions in your area of expertise.

If these are unwritten rules then let's write them. Let the thread in the
main discussion area that has the rules of this forum actually post those
rules. Otherwise, people are going to keep making the same mistake
over and over until they get tired of the abuse.

It has nothing to do with moderation. It has nothing to do with self
moderation.

It has to do with knowing the rules. If people know the rules, and they're
printed in black and white, and they're forced to read them every single
day before they log into this place, THEN...if they blatantly violate those
rules...kick them out into the street.

One of two things will then happen. Either the people left will take the
hint and tow the line (posting only acceptable threads) or this place will
become a ghost town. It's that simple.

Maybe I'm more tolerant than most. I see a spam post, I report it. Other
than that, if the post offers valuable advice or even if it's just thought
provoking, I have no problem with it staying.

But that's just me and it's not my forum.

Just tell me what the rules are and put them in black and white.

Don't make people guess.

That's not a lot to ask.

Steven,
You have a great deal more wisdom than you give yourself credit for. There are many that also read your post that do not get involved in the discussion, such as me for one... I may not always post or say thank you because like many I have many things I am working on, but your post are very informative and helpful to the masses.

There are some with their own agenda and those ones know who they are. What they seem to not understand, and many have posted this, there is a vast amount of people here that have a different train of thought. This is plain and simple human nature, not everybody is going to act and do as you say (meaning those with the agenda).

Forbid that anyone mentioned religion but God did give us all "Free Will" and as such we are going to post the way we do, we are going to talk about what we know about, we are going to help the way we know how, we are going learn and give back the way we know how, and etc .....

From the looks of this thread this goes way beyond some spammers or rule breakers... There are some that have posted on how they think this should be or that should be, which goes right back to what Steven posted to begin with. If you are going to complain how someone post or what they post and it is NOT against the rules then you (those with the agenda) are hurting this forum more than the spammers and scammers.

Bottom line this is Allen's forum and what he says goes...

Thats my take on it anyways...

James

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics.

Really? That's too bad because now I know I won't be going there anytime soon.

TomG.

[sevenish]

I doubt Steven can see this post as I'm most likely on his substantial ignore list, but I'll take a stab.

Steven, there are infinite gray areas and nuance when it comes to human interaction and perception. For example, if you walked into a professional networking event, you might be perceived as somewhat gouche to blurt out your income if unsolicited. You also might be avoided if you appear to be inflexible in your thinking when discussing strategy, methods and tactics -- yet continue to aggressively participate in and initiate discussions about them. Those sorts of behaviours can't be codified into a set of rules, in my opinion.

I hope that you'll take this post in the spirit in which it's intended.

[Terry Crim]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Then Terry, that is a HUGE problem because I get blasted for posts that
do not in any way violate any of those rules.

Little off topic but to answer your question. Member run forum.

Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, People will like you, love you hate you or have no opinnion of you what-so-ever. You have NO control over what others think.

Anytime you stick your head out prepare to be hit. People do have feelings, they do act immaturely, many do have alterior motives and will spite just to spite. If you live solely for Warrior Forum prepare to get hurt when people disagree with you, don't like you or try to sabotage you. It's life, it happens.

I can give you a lot more specifically but I am not posting it as it is OFF Topic.


- Terry

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by sevenish

I doubt Steven can see this post as I'm most likely on his substantial ignore list, but I'll take a stab.

Steven, there are infinite gray areas and nuance when it comes to human interaction and perception. For example, if you walked into a professional networking event, you might be perceived as somewhat gouche to blurt out your income if unsolicited. You also might be avoided if you appear to be inflexible in your thinking when discussing strategy, methods and tactics -- yet continue to aggressively participate in and initiate discussions about them. Those sorts of behaviours can't be codified into a set of rules, in my opinion.

I hope that you'll take this post in the spirit in which it's intended.

Actually, I haven't nuked you yet.

I understand what you're saying. But I'm not talking just about people
just not liking my posts. I'm talking about them saying they don't belong
and then reporting them and deleting them even though they don't break
any of the forum rules.

I'm a big boy. You wanna call me an egomaniac, fine. But don't take your
dislike of me and report my post just because you feel it's inappropriate
just because you don't like it. I mean you in the general sense. Not you
specifically.

So what ends up happening is that perfectly acceptable posts according
to the rules get deleted and you reach a point where you just say, "The
heck with it. It's not worth wasting my time making these posts (some
taking over 45 minutes to write) when they're just going to get nuked.

And many times they end up getting nuked not because of the post itself
but because of all the fighting it starts.

So you can't win. When you can't win, you stop playing the game.

I've stopped playing the game. I'm not a total idiot.

So from now on it's simple. Somebody has a problem, asks a question, I
give an answer.

It keeps me sane and out of trouble.

[Doug English]

Originally Posted by Neil Morgan

Like others, I too have felt the winds of change and kudos to John for bringing it up.

I've been posting here myself less recently because my time is better spent elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I feel the problem is simply that many people are here to promote themselves, not to help others.

Who can blame them - it's free advertising to their target market.

The solution?

Ban sigs or at least charge for their use.

Cheers,

Neil

This is the most sensible post in this entire thread.

Talk about wanting to have the cake and eat it too.

This forum was created for marketers - it caters to them. Allow 14 million sig lines for every user, display post counts, REWARD post counts (more weight, allows for posting of links directly in posts), the entire WSO thing, encourage the circle-jerk 'thanks' system, and strongly encouraging users to use their own name for personal branding.

What else would one expect? Remove the usernames, post counts, and sig lines and see who actually makes a post on this forum, as well as any other forum?
Not saying the way things are is a bad thing...but its this way for a reason.

Personally, I'd love to be able to find a real discussion forum - one where users post just to make their viewpoint heard - not to display their sig or recent WSO. Don't think its going to happen - and 99% of anyone who has replied to this thread is proof of that.

This thread is pretty much a spin on the old "I'm a marketer who hates being marketed to" thing - gets pretty old.

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

It keeps me sane and out of trouble.

I'm not sure it's gonna be THAT effective.

[Trent Brownrigg]

I just want to chime in really quickly and say that I fully agree with the original post!

[Terry Crim]

Originally Posted by HeySal

Oh I love what the self-moderators have done to the OT forum. Many of us liked to talk about politics in there - but because some didn't, rather than just staying the heck out of the threads, they put a stop to some, yes heated, but very relevant and interesting topics. Now we are relegated to what the heck is your favorite food, music etc idiocy. Real useful, real interesting. Yet the same people that were the cause of that censorship slammed on us in there are in the main forum breaking any and every rule there ever was. Go figure.

All we have done here is build a playground for meglomaniacs. And it didn't stop the whiners at all - just put them in control. Makes you really want to pay attention to all the "is this ethical" posts, LMAO.

Well there you go. The problem then is the members. Get rid of the members and we won't have a problem anymore. LMAO

That was a Joke for those that didn't understand.

Rules, Rules and More Rules. Pretty much comes down to enforcement.

I don't know. Allen at one time put so many restrictions and rules up that it was what? 6 pages or more. It was insane how specific they got.
That lasted for oh.. a week or less I think. He got fedup with it and put up the ones we have now.

Allen long ago pretty much came out and said. This is a place for talking about how to make money. All else needs to go somewhere else. That is the Topic of this forum. HOW TO MAKE MONEY. Not how I made 16 million dollars and oh how glad I am and please pat me on the back as I am the greatest person in the world and it took me 10 years and and chipped tooth to do it.

Those type of posts belong on a blog somewhere. UNLESS there is actual reproducable steps included. That is what people are saying, the members or at least the ones that use the controls and vote posts up, down or out.

You want to know what people want to read and see here? Read the trend of the posts that stay, minus the spam and self congratulation ones. The ones with real content that people can use, idea generators and specifics.

What do you want to read about on the Topic of Making Money and expanding your business? That is the primary topic, not the other stuff.

Well. I am at an end again as to what I can contribute. If I think of more or something else hits me I will post again. I am done working for today so that is mainly why I am here. I usually don't post much.

I think it is funny in a way about the issue of moderating posts and "getting hammerd". It ain't the mods that are doing it. It's the other members and their opinions of what they want to see and what they don't.

Interesting though to watch.


- Terry

[ShayRockhold]

I love this forum.

I don't know what it used to be like. I don't care. I love it for what it is today and what it has meant to me and my family.

I thank God I found this forum.

I am so thankful that Allen created it.

I can overlook the bad and the ugly and take the good from this forum - because there is so much good here.

If I roll my eyes at a thread title, I mouse over it and see what it is about. If it is not my cup of tea, I don't read it. Simple.

If I don't like something, I ignore it. There are too many threads here that are so full of good advice.

If there is a spammer, I report it.

If there is a thread I disagree with (but is not misleading or illegal), I ignore it. I don't have to post on a thread just to see my words in black and white.

I try to give back to this forum because of what is has done for me. I don't want to make waves for Allen or anyone else.

[tommygadget]

I don't know Shay, you seem like a real troublemaker to me

TomG.

Originally Posted by ShayRockhold

I love this forum.

I don't know what it used to be like. I don't care. I love it for what it is today and what it has meant to me and my family.

I thank God I found this forum.

I am so thankful that Allen created it.

I can overlook the bad and the ugly and take the good from this forum - because there is so much good here.

If I roll my eyes at a thread title, I mouse over it and see what it is about. If it is not my cup of tea, I don't read it. Simple.

If I don't like something, I ignore it. There are too many threads here that are so full of good advice.

If there is a spammer, I report it.

If there is a thread I disagree with (but is not misleading or illegal), I ignore it. I don't have to post on a thread just to see my words in black and white.

I try to give back to this forum because of what is has done for me. I don't want to make waves for Allen or anyone else.

[ShayRockhold]

Originally Posted by tommygadget

I don't know Shay, you seem like a real troublemaker to me

TomG.

I know, I know. I blame Kevin's hamsters.

[Harvey Segal]

Banning sig files will remove most of the problems raised by the OP.

However it will have the detrimental effect of discouraging
posters from providing helpful constructive answers to questions
and thus earning, as a reward, the display of their sig file.

So one way to help resolve this (though admittedly it's possible
to abuse any system) is to disallow a sig file in a thread you
have started.

Harvey

[Paul Schlegel]

Originally Posted by NathanFalkner

In a situation like this, you have two realistic options. If you've
participated in the WSO and have first hand evidence that
there is something problematic going on -- post your concerns
right in the WSO thread itself. That's a must. Because it allows
the WSO originator to address your concerns and potentially
clear up any misunderstandings and/or to correct problems that
might have slipped through the cracks. This is your first option.

The second option is to go to the Warrior Forum help desk and
report your concerns. Someone within the forums' administrative
hierarchy will receive your message.

To the extent you do all this and nothing happens, then that's
just the way it goes. It could be that the ethical/moral/legal
compass that you're using to guide you is different from that of
the people behind the scenes making the decision as to whether
a particular WSO stays, gets deleted, or is moved to the WCA
section. At least you've voiced your concerns.

OK. The reason I didn't do that is because I've seen when other people
raise valid concerns the person running the WSO says it's against
WSO rules because the person is "trashing the thread" so I thought
my FIRST option was to report it to the help desk, which I did.

The evidence I submitted was technical in nature and didn't have
anything to do with an "ethical judgement" which is why I was
surprised to see the WSO continue to run. But like you said not
much I can do.

Paul Schlegel

[Paul Myers]

Steven,

Knock it off. If your sanity depends on anything that happens in a web-based discussion, you're way too close to the edge.

It's just a forum, for Dog's sake!

I have a thought for one way to raise the tone of the discussion here. Any time that Steven gripes about Les, and any time that Les snipes at Steven, we all report the post as harassment. It's been going on long enough that it's reached that stage, I think.

In the real world, I only ever see this crap from teenaged girls, drunk bikers and professional drama queens (of both genders).

Anyway...

Someone complained about posts that get nuked by the members and brought back. I think they must be very confused, since a post coming back after that means that Allen or one of the Super Mods decided it was within the rules and had value. By definition, that post is not something to be complained about again, unless something very different is added that more blatantly breaks the rules.

I don't care if it's about the reproductive habits of squid. If someone with the authority to resurrect a thread says it's on topic, it's damned well on topic.

The biggest problem I see is a perennial one: People getting torqued off because their unjustified expectations aren't being met. Their personal preferences aren't being treated as Holy Writ.

Get over it.


Paul

[Kay King]

John -

You are the best person I can think of to bring this subject up. The forum has degenerated - partly because of new members who don't know what is acceptable (or don't care) and also in large part by some longer term members who think they have the standing to get by with doing what they want.

I don't have the solution - but I think Les touched on a good point when he said perhaps a combination of member moderation with (behind the scenes?) moderators would work better than the current system.

It is basically what you were saying - leadership is needed. But maybe it could be quietly and behind the scenes.

One problem currently is that Allen likes to have as few written rules as possible. With moderators that worked because they knew the unwritten rules. New members don't know the unwritten rules - and some others have forgotten.

For effective member moderation, perhaps more rules do need to be in writing, concise and clear.

kay

[ShayRockhold]

We do have some of this:



And this:



Which leads to this:



But we should have more of this:

[Ken Preuss]

Originally Posted by ShayRockhold

We do have some of this:



And this:



Which leads to this:



But we should have more of this:

Shay you summed it up so beautifully there's not a thing that could be added. Bravo.

Ken

[David McGimpsey]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I have a thought for one way to raise the tone of the discussion here. Any time that Steven gripes about Les, and any time that Les snipes at Steven, we all report the post as harassment.

I think this is a perfect idea.

It gets a bit tiring seeing so many well-intentioned threads degenerate into snipes and gripes.

[Alton Hargrave]

I think...it is going to rain. Probably a storm of some magnitude. The clouds have been gathering all day and there is so much rumblin' going on. The weathermen can't agree.

[tommygadget]

We should be able to disagree without becoming disagreeable.

TomG.

[mmurtha]

Nathan,

Now I'll agree to this statement:

This thread, if nothing else, has at least helped to raise
the collective awareness of the need for all of us to be
better stewards of the resource we've been given here.

(And to do so without being overly disagreeable among
one another in the process...)

In many ways, I think this statement follows suit of what John's been saying all along about leadership. Leadership in here is about stuardship within this community.

And I think this is what Allen may have had in mind when he made all members active Mods.

Now if everyone does their part in the forum, there shouldn't be a problem.


Just for the record, I also believe what Paul M. stated in that people want their preferences too, and this forum can't afford to have it both ways.

So report when you need to, and use your better judgment when descerning whether or not to do so.


Mary

[Paul Myers]

John,

The reason most people post in the main forum rather than specialist forums is because they can now get away with it.

Aside from not realizing that those forums exist, I think there may be another reason or two.

For me, those forums are for very specialized stuff, and for people who are only interested in a specific topic. I tend to think of them as being more advanced.

If I think a thread on copywriting is going to be useful for newbies, I'm not going to post it in a forum for more advanced people. I'm going to post it in the main forum. This is especially true if I think it's something a newer person is unlikely to realize they need to know.

Am I trying to get away with something? Or am I trying to do what's best for the majority of members? (Keep in mind that I haven't taken copywriting clients for years, and I never did take "walk-ins," so there's no self-promotion going on with that example.)

If someone says to me, "Don't post anything at all in the main forum on a topic for which there's a sub-forum," I'm probably just not going to post anything on the subject anywhere. I'll just add it to the list of topics I don't post about here.


Paul

[George Wright]

Good Point Paul,

From my personal experience I don't recall having a "tip or trick" of mine that was of newbie caliber ever moved to another forum.

However I do recall having my how to questions moved to the proper forum for the "specialists" to answer.

George Wright

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

John,Aside from not realizing that those forums exist, I think there may be another reason or two.

For me, those forums are for very specialized stuff, and for people who are only interested in a specific topic. I tend to think of them as being more advanced.

If I think a thread on copywriting is going to be useful for newbies, I'm not going to post it in a forum for more advanced people. I'm going to post it in the main forum. This is especially true if I think it's something a newer person is unlikely to realize they need to know.

Am I trying to get away with something? Or am I trying to do what's best for the majority of members? (Keep in mind that I haven't taken copywriting clients for years, and I never did take "walk-ins," so there's no self-promotion going on with that example.)

If someone says to me, "Don't post anything at all in the main forum on a topic for which there's a sub-forum," I'm probably just not going to post anything on the subject anywhere. I'll just add it to the list of topics I don't post about here.


Paul

[Susie Norman]

I'm brand new and I'm here hoping to gain knowledge from the experiences of others. I think that the posts I just read are from seasoned, dedicated posters and I will be making it a point to follow their posts. I don't know how it was but maybe can contribute to the way it should be.

[Mark Singletary]

I was recently telling someone that rules were for people without common sense. That may work in some cases but here there are so many different personalities, so many nationalities, and so many reasons people come here that it's hard to have a common feeling about what is common sense.

Some come to help others with no financial motive, some come to help others with financial motives, so come just for financial motives - to get all they can get for themselves.

Then there are preferences that can cloud our judgment when we are talking about what's right and wrong. Let's take an advanced Warrior who is very smart, very opinionated and not afraid to express it, and has certain posting traits -- CAPS, lots of posts, etc.

Some would look upon him or her as trying to be helpful and part of the community and look forward to every post.
Some would look upon him or her as having an agenda of some sort.
Some would look upon him or her as hogging bandwidth.
Some would look upon him or her as rude or obnoxious due to the posting style.

And while I may look forward to the posts today by the end of the week - mainly due to me and my circumstances - I may feel like he/she needs to give it a break and be sick of him/her.

So you are going to get a lot of different ideas about everything and no clear cut feeling of what is right and wrong.

A couple posters mentioned the old days. In the old days there were problems too.

However it was different. We were more tight back then because there were fewer of us. And we all had paid financially for the privilege. Because it was a privilege, even with the family squabbles (and it was more like a family), we generally protected it more.

I remember so many posts about not giving out the URL - because it was a family place - not open to the general public. Anyone could join the family but it was still a private thing - a privilege.

Nowadays I get several emails every week from marketers with links to their newest WSO.

Even though I know it is open now, I still cringe.

I don't even go to any other forums anymore. There's no need. Nothing will ever replace the Warrior Forum in many of our eyes and there is no other place that can touch it today - even with the problems.

As with most things there are pros and cons as to the best way to resolve problems.

When what you're trying to protect, though, is seen as a commodity and just a place, you've got a long row to hoe.

Mark

[admin]

I've already deleted a couple people because of this thread, I think I better close it before I have to remove more.

There are so many responses I could make to this thread that my post would be a hell of task just to make coherent.

So I'll revert to a few bullet points:

* As far as this place being "open to one and all" you must be kidding. No one except for Tom and I know just how many people are removed from here on a daily basis. You would be shocked at the number.

We're hated as being "Elitist" and have been since probably the beginning of this forum. If you sound retarded you get removed. That's cold but it can't be any other way unless we want this forum to degenerate into total nonsense.

You spam, you bitch and moan constantly...you also get removed. Same reason as above.

My point is if you think you don't already have a 'privilege' by being allowed to remain here, you don't know where the hell you're at.

* It's ironic to me that threads on this exact topic have been brought up as far back as a year or two after this forum started. And I can see now that they will be brought up 10 years from now.

If you compare the threads on the front of the forum right now to the front page of the old forum you will see that virtually nothing has really changed. Don't assume, just go do it, compare the two forums and you will see.

What's really amazing to me is this...this is just ONE complaint thread. Back when we had Mods we had hundreds of them popping up every week. Every day someone was bitching about a Mod targeting them or some great thread got deleted.

No one on the face of this earth will ever create a 'perfect' forum. You can forget that. As long as humans are what make up a forum there will never be perfection in any shape or form. Absolutely impossible. Quit wishing for it now, it will save you a lot of energy.

* What really burns my ass is that some of the people who have responded in this thread are quick to jump on the doom bandwagon while they themselves NEVER contribute anything here. And I can bet my bank account they never report threads either.

"Oooh I don't come here as much anymore"...well to that I say pack your bags and take your bitch ass to digital point. You're not contributing anything and you're not reporting threads that don't belong here so I don't think we're going to drown ourselves in whiskey over you leaving bunky. Adios.

* Now getting to why John started this thread. I know why he did and I agree. It's not about spam, obvious spam is deleted here within minutes so there is nothing to complain about there.

It's these losers coming in here only to take and rip off what they can. There ARE a lot more of them since the new forum started. That's the one area where the "Member Moderation" isn't working. They don't get discovered and removed fast enough.

The truth is, for every 100 people who join this forum only about 10 are acceptable. As shocking as that may sound that's a real world figure and may be generous. It's more like only 5 are acceptable.

We're going through a number of ways to correct this but it's not an easy thing to do.

This is a problem I know about and have been working on to come up with something doable. All I can say about that right now is hang in there, I'm working on it.

* The WSO forum. Boy what a pain in the ass that is huh? None of us like it do we? I'm going to fix that too.

Have a Happy New Year!!

Allen