An Open Letter To Allen & The Moderators

[John Taylor]

Dear Everyone,


Yes, this is Allen's forum but we are all Moderators so
this involves you too.


I'm just one of many people who give a damn about the
Warrior Forum. I've been around here longer than the
vast majority and I've seen this forum go through many
ups and downs.


I believe we are currently witnessing a decline into
what could become one of the worst downs many of us
have ever seen.


The main forum is becoming a free for all with people
posting..

• Questionable requests for financial help
• Topics that belong on personal blogs
• Threads designed to promote upcoming WSO offers
• Subjects that are completely off topic
• Blatant advertising and self promotion
• Meaningless crap designed to raise post count
• Content that is copied and pasted from elsewhere
• Threads that belong in the specialist forums
• The list could go on..

The WSO Forum is turning into a three ring circus with
all manner of hieroglyphics in titles, a number of
illegal offers being posted and, sad to say, it's also
becoming far too attractive to thieves and scammers.


While giving responsibility for Moderation to the
members is in theory a positive step. In practice I
don't think that they way it's currently panning out is
in the best interests of the community as a whole.


In short, I think we need to bring back some control
and leadership in this community. Democracy without
leadership isn't working.


John

[JasonParker]

I'll be part of the John Taylor uprising.

[KimW]

John,
I think you are right on target.

[Hamida Harland]

I agree. Over the past few weeks especially, things have been getting gradually worse & it'd be great to see an improvement for the new year.

[Kevin Riley]

Dammit, Taylor, I hate agreeing with you, you crotchety old git. However, I raise my Whiskey glass to you in full agreement.

[JayXtreme]

I ran out of thanks today John.. al that sense you are talking is making me thank you plenty..

I agree whole heartedly...

I'm not one for saying what should happen, or what should be done etc.. but I think you are right, and I do hope things get better, with or without Allen's intervention..

Peace

Jay

[RobinSkeen]

Absolute agreement John. Cheers.

[lgibbon]

Well said John,
And just to add to your list,
The never ending self promotional posts
that have been bumped for months.
These would have been locked long ago.

[Ron Douglas]

I haven't always agreed with the moderators on the old forum, but I much prefer the way things used to be. IMO, this forum is so successful it should have paid moderators.

[Martin.Avis]

Amen to that.

[DavidO]

As Aye! Although I've been guilty of some of the lesser breaches myself, I agree totally. I've even come away from the forum feeling a little sour a few times recently and as a result I've been absent on a more frequent basis.

But as I look over the past three years the WF has been an overwhelmingly positive force that I hate to see degraded.

Let's hope some positive developments come out of this.

[Michael Oksa]

Thanks John,

Because I believe people should become the change they want to see, I will report more of the questionable posts than I already do.

Usually I just go after the blatant spammers, but now it'll be any post I read that doen't belong here. I will try to use my best judgment, but can't guarantee I will get it right every time. However, any posts I flag will be for what I think is the good of the forum.

On a side note, it doesn't matter to me if you have 1 post or 5,000 - if it doesn't belong here, I'm flagging it.

Here's to a brighter and better WF in 2009!

All the best,
Michael Oksa

[Keith Boisvert]

Agreed. Ever since we went to the self moderation aspect I have found myself here less and less. I still appreciate and enjoy the forum of course, but I get tired of weeding through the crap to find the good stuff.

I know there were flaws with the 'old way', but at least the forum was a pleasure to be around, and the posts such as described above were the exception, not the norm.

I accept the way things are regardless, but if I can help in any way, consider this me tossing my hat in the ring.

Keith

[James Clark]

John,

Hate to be part of me too crowd, but I’m with you 100%. I’m been a member for a few years,but I’m not always around,because of other interest. Must admit, some of the posts are a little bazaar these days. Kevin, are you drinking again?

I make the best Martinis on earth!

Jimmy.

[raynman]

I've been a part of a good few other forums and just took for granted that this one already had Mods like they did. It has been pretty well run for a forum without Mods. I can see you would need some to clean up messes and contain somethings before they get out of control. Just because we are all adults here doesn't mean that we will all act like one.

The WF is a great tool for someone like me who just wants to learn and, hopefully, to help others learn. A few Moderators would really help cut down on the clutter and clean up things making it easier to do so.

Sorry if my post count or joined date doesn't qualify me to speak on the matter. I just know from experience in other forums how beneficial Mods can be and believe that it would be the same here.

[David_Thompson]

Let me just say it's about bloody time someone said something....

--David

[greff]

Right on, John.

I especially object to "Threads designed to promote upcoming WSO offers"

I personally know someone who would post here just to create a ruckus with the hope that people would see his sig file and click through.

Is this what happens when anarchists take over?

[Monetize]

I agree, we need real mods.

And HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!

[Ralf Skirr]

Yes John,

I have wondered about the changes in the forum myself, seeing lots of self-serving posts coming up and lots of useless posts.

I'm not sure if it's due to how the forum is moderated or simply because the number of users has increased a lot.

This is probably something the 'old' mods can evaluate best, because they know how much crap they had to delete.

Democracy without
leadership isn't working.

True!

Ralf

[Martin.Avis]

Personally I believe that banning sigs completely from the main forum would cut the noise to signal ratio considerably. In a forum where discussion is the primary objective, sigs seem strangely out of place.

Martin

[raynman]

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

I haven't always agreed with the moderators on the old forum, but I much prefer the way things used to be. IMO, this forum is so successful it should have paid moderators.

I don't know of many forums that have paid Mods but because of how important this place is for so many in making a living it would make sense.

In my opinion, it would really go a long way towards protecting people new to IM from being exploited by sharks who prey on the ill-informed and desperate.

[absolutelee]

John, I haven't been a part of this forum for very long, but I would have to agree with you. I noticed a number of weird requests for money just before Christmas. I would hope, however, that the forum is not made so inaccessible that new members like me can't make a real contribution.

Happy New Year!

[Kim Standerline]

I've noticed a lot of these as well

And for the record, I never ever thought self moderation was a good idea.

Backing you to the hilt John
Kim

Originally Posted by lgibbon

Well said John,
And just to add to your list,
The never ending self promotional posts
that have been bumped for months.
These would have been locked long ago.

[Lindsay Brynn]

I couldn't agree more. I'm relatively new and still feel like I'm getting used to things around here, but you put into words a lot of what I was thinking. Hopefully we will see some changes around here.

[tommygadget]

I've nuked a whole bunch of threads recently by repeatedly reporting them. If we all do the same instead of complaining, the forum will clean up nicely and fast. Don't be afraid to use the report post button when you see something that just doesn't belong. When you see the results, you'll be glad you did.

TomG.

[John Taylor]

Nathan,

I'm not suggesting that there's anything
wrong with a diverse and varied range of
topics to debate. However, we have other
specialist forums to discuss Copywriting,
SEO, CPA and other topics.

You can put it anyway you want, but don't
suggest that my intention was to criticize
Allen or the other Admins. I know what it's
like to be a MOD here.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of any
"cartel" or other means of manipulating the
forum. There's enough of that going on already.

John

[valerieSONORA]

Exactly. Half the stuff in the main forum doesn't even go there. If it belonged on the wf at all, it would be the Off Topic section.

[Paul Duxbury]

John

I completely agree and sad to say it's one of the reasons I have been here far less than I used to be. The range of issues you highlighted plus a few other unsavoury matters keep me away.

Yes I could spend time reporting posts advocating violence, self promoting and the likes but I simply don't have the time.

Thanks for raising the issue.

Take care

Paul

[Dave OSullivan]

Good Job John and well said David,

New Year, new start, things will be a lot better for it.

Dave.

Originally Posted by David_Thompson

Let me just say it's about bloody time someone said something....

--David

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by Paul Duxbury

John

I completely agree and sad to say it's one of the reasons I have been here far less than I used to be. The range of issues you highlighted plus a few other unsavoury matters keep me away.

Yes I could spend time reporting posts advocating violence, self promoting and the likes but I simply don't have the time.

Thanks for raising the issue.

Take care

Paul

Valid point removed to avoid further infractions.

[Rupps]

I agree as well. It's getting harder to read through posts and find useful content as it's mostly self-promoting stuff.

[Alton Hargrave]

Self moderating is sometimes like mob-rule. Remember the old western movies where the whole town is ready to hang some poor fellow that they are sure did it? After all is sorted out, the real reason the townies wanted to hang the guy is just to satisfy their animosity toward life and it's frustrations.

We could fire all the police and let the drivers regulate the driving on the roads, but we would soon have individuals racing up and down the highway knocking off the other guys ( who they say are speeding).

People are people. They want a thin book of rules for themselves to follow, but a very thick book of rules for their neighbor to abide to.

I think moderators would be best. There is a lot of "taking advantage" going on here. Yes, many of the posts have nothing to do with internet marketing. Every day, someone posts a request to "check my site". Really! Blatant advertising!

People are most comfortable in a place that has rules and order.

[Glenn Grundberg]

I'm with you too John...100%

Allen: with all due respect, sir...It's not working

If you need volunteers, I will do what I can and give what time I can to this excellent place. It wouldn't be but a few hours a week that I could spare right now, but if called...I will serve.

Peace, and Happy New Year!

Gman

[zerofill]

Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...

[raynman]

Like I have said earlier (just in case you care) I agree with needing Mods.

I am curious, though, about where you would put the thread started by UnmaskingCPA about CPA? For me, if it was in the Ad Networks forum I wouldn't have seen it. I am new to IM and am still learning what all the aspects are. I considered that thread to be an introduction to it and will now be looking at that other forum. It might have been good for someone in that thread to say, "by the way, we have a forum where things like this is discussed more in depth" I would have gone right away to that. THe thread starter might not have known about that forum either but if he did and started the thread there it would have flown over my radar.

I guess my point is the general forum is a good place for new guys like me to get some basic information on areas within IM that can point me in the right direction to get even more knowledgeable about it.

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Nathan,

I'm not suggesting that there's anything
wrong with a diverse and varied range of
topics to debate. However, we have other
specialist forums to discuss Copywriting,
SEO, CPA and other topics.

You can put it anyway you want, but don't
suggest that my intention was to criticize
Allen or the other Admins. I know what it's
like to be a MOD here.

I certainly wouldn't want to be a part of any
"cartel" or other means of manipulating the
forum. There's enough of that going on already.

John

[R Hagel]

It's kind of like when I take my dogs to parks or even hotels that allow dogs. When I see someone else's dog has left a mess, I clean it up while I'm picking up after my own dogs. My hope is that the park or hotel will continue allowing me to visit with my dogs if we keep the area clean.

Same goes for the Warrior Forum. I LIKE visiting here. And so I always hit the report button on the "crap" in hopes that this place stays clean... so Allen will continue to let us all visit.

Cheers,
Becky

[Paul Duxbury]

Thanks Michael for proving my point - one of the current lurkers steps out of the shadows to express a view and is immediately slammed as "You're only a part of the problem then."

I have actually reported the poster who was suggesting the use of violence as a means to controlling people but hey you wouldn't know that because you want to put people down as well. Thanks for making me feel so welcome.

Very kindest regards

Paul

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

So, you don't like it here as much, but you're not willing to do anything about it?

You're only a part of the problem then.

Think about it this way. How would you know a post advocates violence or self-promoting? Obviously, by reading it, right? So...if you have time to read a post, you can spare an extra 10 seconds to report it.

On the other hand, if you don't have the time to give a little back, and make the forum a better place, then less frequent visits are fine by me.

All the best,
Michael

[Mike McBride]

John, I'm going to offer a divergent viewpoint. Right now
there are currently 1,000+ people on this forum. If you
visit Alexa, you'll also notice that since August of 2008
the rank has been steadily rising.

What difference does that make, if 900 of them are posting pure, unadulterated crap?

Alexa rank rising? Yeah, like a fever in an ill patient.

You and I might not per
se like some or all of the topics that are talked about on
this forum, but it's important to acknowledge that this is
a very diverse place. What might seem like rubbish to us
might be entertaining and/or of interest to someone else.

Since when was this forum meant to be simply entertaining or "of interest?" I thought it was about making money, with an emphasis on internet marketing. That's what I come here for - serious discussion of marketing and making money (with the occasional levity provided by the Rileys/Segals/HillbillyMarketers of the forum.)

I'm with John and the others 100%, as I've stated previously in PM's with a few other members.

Thank you very much, John, and a Happy New Year to you.

[Platinum Matt]

John, I totally disagree.

I think it may need some rules tightening up to deal with some of the points you mentioned BUT having the USER as the moderator is by FAR the best method I've come across on any forum.

Great system as it is IMO.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by Paul Duxbury

Thanks Michael for proving my point - one of the current lurkers steps out of the shadows to express a view and is immediately slammed as "You're only a part of the problem then."

I have actually reported the poster who was suggesting the use of violence as a means to controlling people but hey you wouldn't know that because you want to put people down as well. Thanks for making me feel so welcome.

Very kindest regards

Paul

Another point removed to avoid possibility of another infraction for sharing my opinion.

[lgibbon]

Originally Posted by zerofill

Well...I am all for having moderators back. If we don't have the ones that used to like to get delete happy via personal preference. Or didn't like threads that were bordering on a topic/niche they were in. No one can convince me that it didn't happen all the time. Because it did...I watched it daily... IF you can find actual unbiased mods...then I say go for it.

EDIT: Also I am not saying all mods were like that...only a chosen few...

That was only in the minds of the abusers and their cronies that were caught.

[zerofill]

Originally Posted by lgibbon

That was only in the minds of the abusers and their cronies that were caught.

Seemed to be pretty widespread view... (wasn't my threads)
But a hell of a lot of good ones I was following...

It was a fact...however only a couple mods were guilty of it.
It was either that or there were people who needed to be taught how to delete a post rather than a thread...Not sure which it was.

[Steven Wagenheim]

You know, there are so many ironies in this thread that I'm just sitting here
shaking my head at the whole thing.

For starters, while John makes very good points, the thread itself is still a
rant and something I think Allen and many other members are tired of.

It's kind of a no win situation. You're damned if you do and you're damned if
you don't.

Personally, and I mean this sincerely and from the bottom of my heart as
this is a New Year and I truly am trying to change my behavior, I honestly
don't know what you can post here anymore.

I make a post with tips on doing something and I get replies...

"This is a discussion forum, not a place to give tips."

I make a post on ways to organize yourself or think clearer and I get...

"This belongs on your blog or in Mind Warriors".

I make a post asking for help with something and I get...

"This belongs in the programmer's section."

I make a post about my success and I get...

"This is not a place to talk about your success. Nobody wants to hear it."
(though it seems many are excluded from this rule)

Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule. So ultimately
I decided that beginning this year, I'd make no more new threads to this
forum, since I don't know how to use it properly.

Instead, I will simply confine myself to answering simple and basic questions
that members have like, "How do I use article marketing for my blog?"
which in fact, I just responded to.

I'm hoping by adopting this new rule for myself, I can stay out of trouble.

There is a point to what I am saying and I'm going to make it.

I consider myself an intelligent person. But if I can't seem to make a post
here without people jumping down my throat for everything I say, then
maybe not all of the blame goes to the poster.

It's certainly something to consider.

As to the problems of this forum, heck. If I can't figure out how to create
a thread that doesn't get me blasted, then I certainly don't have the
answers to those problems.

I'll leave those to members who are a lot smarter than myself.

And now I'm going to go and answer some members questions and see
if I can maybe do some good around here.

[Tim Franklin]

I will have to join the majority opinion here,

I did notice a difference in the topics posted when we changed over, I thought that perhaps it was a temporary thing, new members posting different topics, since the new format attracted a lot of members and some inactive members to start posting.

However over time, it seems like a little air has gone out of the tire, easily fixed, or at least easy to say that.

I am not sure what the solution is, as we are an evolving community while we may wish to go back in time, the truth is that we cannot because we are no longer exactly like the old community was in the past, but I do remember being more interested in keeping up with the main forum and now I do not visit every day like I did in the past.

Thanks for posting this worthy topic, I am sure as every one here we all love the warrior forum in any form it takes.

happy new year,

[zerofill]

I guess one thing that can be considered is this...

Allen tried the change for a reason...The moderation wasn't working as is...to many complaints. Now the moderation isn't working to everyones expectations as it is...too many complaints...

Catch 22...

Personally I feel the member moderation hasn't been in place long enough to really tell how well it works. It would actually be nice to have Allen chime in and give an idea of how many posts actually are removed via member moderation.

I do notice that it seems we all catch the spammers quick.

[Marhelper]

Thanks for your experience and leadership ... well said.

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Bottom line: Almost everything I post here is met with ridicule.

With all due respect, I don't think that is true at all. Me thinks you are using hyperbole here to make a point. The higher a person's profile, the bigger the target. With that high a post count, you'll get a lot of fans and a lot of... well... shall we say non-fans...

TomG.

PS - You're also skirting the border about making this post about you. I certainly don't think that was John's point.

[Michael Oksa]

Paul, John, and others....

My apologies for over-reacting. I am in the midst of some very serious family issues, and I have a feeling that is bringing out the worst of me here at the WF.

Paul, you're a good guy, and I have no issue with you. Sorry for being a jerk - that's just not my style.

John, you did what you thought was right, and while I disagree - no hard feelings.

Others, sorry for sidetracking this worthy discussion. Now, back to the main topic.

All the best,
Michael Oksa

[Paul Duxbury]

Thanks Michael I appreciate you taking the time to come back and post that.

I hope your family issues are soon resolved

Regards

Paul

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

Paul, John, and others....

My apologies for over-reacting. I am in the midst of some very serious family issues, and I have a feeling that is bringing out the worst of me here at the WF.

Paul, you're a good guy, and I have no issue with you. Sorry for being a jerk - that's just not my style.

John, you did what you thought was right, and while I disagree - no hard feelings.

Others, sorry for sidetracking this worthy discussion. Now, back to the main topic.

All the best,
Michael Oksa

[Bakai]

I think it is obvious that changes were made for financial considerations. WSO's are a driving force for the owners of the forum and to have overbearing mods would only deflect that.