(BEWare Of Who You Trust!) I Really Hate Writing This...

[thomasukm]

Hey Warriors,

As in my title, i really don't like writing this sort of thread as it doesn't add value to my business but i have to do it for the sake of my fellow warriors here.

Just to let you know, i have gone to the stage of going "paypal resolution", anybody has tried paypal resolution and got back your money??

I hope you can listen to me as I'm really pissed off with this kind of people!

Here's the STORY:
Recently I have gone into a graphic design deal with a warrior (Note: This warrior is NOT from WSO).

The start was very good and a lot of promises (Hint: Damn, I even wrote him a testimonial initially, is there a way to delete it??)...as i do not paid him anything, and the service was good and fast! As his design was ok, i asked him to do more things and we agreed on a price on a certain scope of works, and I paid him full based on trust, he promised me "the sky and the moon" (by the way, i'm shocked that he would go to risk his name for the price of less than $60...)

Things start to change when I paid him, initially i thought he is just busy and he got some busy works, first time ok...

2 days later, i contact him again...and this time round he said sorry he forgot...and he will send me the files in a while....And wait and wait...nothing came....

5 days more...nothing came...
I emailed him....no reply

Here's the sign that I realised he is totally ignoring me!

I message him again, this time he was online, but he turned off his instant messaging when he saw my message...damn!
And I decided to send him another email reminding him if he's really busy, just let me know and we can work out something...don't just hide from me and get nothing done.

And, I saw him online at WF, and PM'ed him twice...no response..

I wrote him another email, no reply...

After that i decided to write him a last email....this time round i gave him a dateline in the email, because i cannot be waiting forever!

True enough! Nothing came by the dateline!

I felt that I have given him more than enough time for a simple job...and he is totally ignoring me.

I felt that I have trusted the WRONG person, i have a gut feeling that he would never email me again and i should just forget about it and move on!

Here's the conclusion:
From this i conclude that although most warriors are honest, but NOT all, so the moral of the story is BEware of who you work with...before you part with your money, open your eye..

But sometime it's hard to tell, and this warrior has told me that he used a pen name....he could still be around with other names, i don't know....and he could create another pen name....

The shocking truth is, he risk himself for less than $60 bucks! And lost a potential customer that he can do business with for more future jobs...What can $60 bucks do for you?? It doesn't make you a millionaire...

WARNING:
Oh ya...he also told me that he is planning a WSO soon....Watch ya warriors!

Disclaimer to this warrior:
IF you're reading this thread now, and you think you could still make it up for me...i'm willing to negotiate, I'm not here to make enemy but you have made me write this thread to protect other people.

Thanks for reading this long story post!

Have a great day,
Thomas

[ryanman]

Oh well! I have gone through similar experiences in the past but it only helps you to be more careful in the future.

[TLTheLiberator]

Over a measly $60?

What some people won't do.

I have won paypal resolution 3 times.

Try your credit card company if you used a credit card. They should be very willing to help you.

TL

[Sean A McAlister]

Unfortunately part of business.....people can be down right ruthless at times.
But I believe in Karma...what gos around comes around

[Allen Graves]

There's another lesson here.

If you read the OP, you will see that he was willing to wait and be patient. It was only after there was no response that he began to get irritated.

Lesson: Even if you cannot make a deadline established with a client, all you really need to do is communicate with the client and let them know what you are doing and why the work is incomplete.

9 times out of 10, the client will understand and the transaction, once complete, will result in a happy customer.

COMMUNICATE!

Respectfully,
Allen Graves

[steven90210]

Well that's life..

What some people will do for that little money.

It's good to know that we're at the very least higher than these people, and that we won't stoop to their levels to do what they do.

Cheer up!

Steve.

[thomasukm]

Hi TL,

How long would you wait before you escalate to a paypal claim?? It has a 20 days period after the resolution is opened.
Assuming if the seller do not respond to the paypal resolution?

Thomas

Originally Posted by TLTheLiberator

Over a measly $60?

What some people won't do.

I have won paypal resolution 3 times.

Try your credit card company if you used a credit card. They should be very willing to help you.

TL

[thomasukm]

AM i able to delete that testimonial...

I don't want to post the link here yet...(HINT: There's a feature in the forum to let you find posts by the user, it would be very obvious

Thomas

Originally Posted by AnarchyAds

Can you post the link to your nice testimonial?
lol

[bobsedge]

I think WF needs to be more of an open forum. Why not name names when someone does a poor job just as you would send accolades is someone does a good one. That's what makes elance, guru, and ebay click. People know there is recourse if you screw up. Without names, someone else (maybe even me) will come along and get jerked around by the same guy when it could have been avoided.

[ODA Marketing]

Originally Posted by Allen Graves

There's another lesson here.

If you read the OP, you will see that he was willing to wait and be patient. It was only after there was no response that he began to get irritated.

Lesson: Even if you cannot make a deadline established with a client, all you really need to do is communicate with the client and let them know what you are doing and why the work is incomplete.

9 times out of 10, the client will understand and the transaction, once complete, will result in a happy customer.

COMMUNICATE!

Respectfully,
Allen Graves

A very good advice to the seller here, but not all sellers want to deliver what they have got paid for.

Its a good thing to be patient, but please don't do the mistake I have done waiting to long.

I purchased a service WSO last summer and paid, not measly $60, but $500.

PayPal did not want to help due to their rule about service vs product, and I got a phone call from my bank today, telling me that they could not help either, due to the fact that Visa International's rule that they do not refund any transaction older than 120 days from promised delivery day.

Lesson: Be patient, but not for more than 3 month after promised delivery date. Then you have 30 days left to take the case into Visa and get your money back.

[sevenish]

Originally Posted by thomasukm

AM i able to delete that testimonial...

If the testimonial is in a post made by you on this forum, I think you can just go back and edit it.

[Jeff Casmer]

Hi,

You would be surprised to see how many people try that especially when they didnt get the results they desired but did get wha they paid for....

Business is about excepting the face that there is a trial and error period and sometimes things you pay for dont work. If anything it helps with your taxes as you can use it as a business expense...

Take care
Jeff Casmer

[tomw]

Originally Posted by thomasukm

AM i able to delete that testimonial...

I don't want to post the link here yet...(HINT: There's a feature in the forum to let you find posts by the user, it would be very obvious

Thomas

If it's who I think it was, he was online here yesterday!

Yes, you can delete your post by clicking "edit" and then "delete."

However, it may be more beneficial to other members (and cathartic for you) to edit it.



Thomas

[thomasukm]

Yes, he was online yesterday.

I just checked my "recent visitors" profile, he came and check me!
I'm sure he saw this post, although his status is offline now....

Warriors,
I really pissed off with such person...as i really can't figure out WHY is the hell he did this to me??

I find no reason at all...but it happened!

Thomas

Originally Posted by tomw

If it's who I think it was, he was online here yesterday!

Yes, you can delete your post by clicking "edit" and then "delete."

However, it may be more beneficial to other members (and cathartic for you) to edit it.



Thomas

[thomasukm]

More direct hint:
He did an offer for "free minisites design" before the end of 2008.

Update:
When i asked him about the deal, He told me that he needed to raise some money fast...And i found out that in fact he used that money just to buy a few more WSOs...he probably bought many WSOs recently

Thomas

Originally Posted by bobsedge

I think WF needs to be more of an open forum. Why not name names when someone does a poor job just as you would send accolades is someone does a good one. That's what makes elance, guru, and ebay click. People know there is recourse if you screw up. Without names, someone else (maybe even me) will come along and get jerked around by the same guy when it could have been avoided.

[Steven Wagenheim]

Originally Posted by thomasukm

More direct hint:
He did an offer for "free minisites design" before the end of 2008.

Update:
When i asked him about the deal, He told me that he needed to raise some money fast...And i found out that in fact he used that money just to buy a few more WSOs...he probably bought many WSOs recently

Thomas

Thomas, just an FYI...Anybody can find who this person is through the
info you've given in this thread. Even I found this person. So you might
want to edit these posts. It's up to you. Just a suggestion.

[thomasukm]

Steven,

Thanks for your advice:

Thomas

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Thomas, just an FYI...Anybody can find who this person is through the
info you've given in this thread. Even I found this person. So you might
want to edit these posts. It's up to you. Just a suggestion.

[ODA Marketing]

Originally Posted by bobsedge

I think WF needs to be more of an open forum. Why not name names when someone does a poor job just as you would send accolades is someone does a good one. That's what makes elance, guru, and ebay click. People know there is recourse if you screw up. Without names, someone else (maybe even me) will come along and get jerked around by the same guy when it could have been avoided.

Hi.

I do not agree on this.

Very often a story have two sides, and posting in here only give one side of the story.

In other cases it can be people only wanted to hurt someone, posting some rubbish in here.

If the service / product you purchased is from a WSO, you can report it to Admin and if they find this to be correct, they can terminate this warrior from running other WSO's

If you find the person running a WSO after you have lost your money, you can also post in their WSO your experience with the seller, and that way help other warriors out without posting their name in here.

I am not a big fan of a general public buyer beware mentality in here.

[Kay King]

The testimonial seems to indicate that you received a free offer and were pleased with the results. Did you receive it?

If so, the testimonial would be true - but why not edit it to add that further work that you ordered and paid for was not completed and attempts to contact the service provider were unanswered.

To me it sounds like this person is not capable of doing the work he promised you - has spent the money - and thus is avoiding you.

Paying in advance for work not completed puts you at risk. Custom graphics or writing should be payable when completed and received.

kay

[bobsedge]

Originally Posted by ODA Marketing

Hi.

I do not agree on this.

Very often a story have two sides, and posting in here only give one side of the story.

In other cases it can be people only wanted to hurt someone, posting some rubbish in here.

If the service / product you purchased is from a WSO, you can report it to Admin and if they find this to be correct, they can terminate this warrior from running other WSO's

If you find the person running a WSO after you have lost your money, you can also post in their WSO your experience with the seller, and that way help other warriors out without posting their name in here.

I am not a big fan of a general public buyer beware mentality in here.

The person its directed to has every opportunity to respond to a negative post. Generally I agree with you and it is a double edge sword but it seems like Thomas is sincere in his post. Though I am sure there would be some abuse, this type of democracy works on many other sites. The internet has made the world a much smaller place and because of that there is a check and balance.

[thomasukm]

HI Kay,

You're right. I received the free offer nice, fast and well done i would say. It's a true fact.

That's why lead to more business with him...To me he is definitely able to do it from the quality of the graphics, and the way he asked me about details...

But i'm not sure what went wrong over there..

Anyway, most of the graphics design need you to pay upfront full.

So, my lesson learnt is, only buy graphics from the trusted designer and even if paying a bit more is worth it.

Thomas

Originally Posted by Kay King

The testimonial seems to indicate that you received a free offer and were pleased with the results. Did you receive it?

If so, the testimonial would be true - but why not edit it to add that further work that you ordered and paid for was not completed and attempts to contact the service provider were unanswered.

To me it sounds like this person is not capable of doing the work he promised you - has spent the money - and thus is avoiding you.

Paying in advance for work not completed puts you at risk. Custom graphics or writing should be payable when completed and received.

kay

[JoshuaCreighton]

Why does it seem like this is happening with a lot of graphic designers in particular lately? Every thread I've seen like this in the past couple of weeks has mostly consisted of Warriors having a hard time trying to communicate with people doing graphic design work for them...it almost seems like there's a jinx on the trade or something.

[thomasukm]

You have a point here.

In fact i encountered a similar situation some time back at another forum (But there's no monetary exchange), and many people came forward to support me, and the "damn" fellow just don't dare to come out and say a single word.

To me a forum is a community, where most people are honest
To help and to grow.
But sadly, a community do have some dishonest people just like real world...

On this case, I have documented every details in my emails, messages chat, PM at WF, and I am ready to show to paypal in case they ask me for proof.

Thomas

Originally Posted by bobsedge

The person its directed to has every opportunity to respond to a negative post. Generally I agree with you and it is a double edge sword but it seems like Thomas is sincere in his post. Though I am sure there would be some abuse, this type of democracy works on many other sites. The internet has made the world a much smaller place and because of that there is a check and balance.

[absbica]

I believe he is being sincere and it sounds like he did a whole round robin with the guy trying to get in communication.

If someone is being sneaky and you have used up your opportunities to communicate...out him.

Seriously, just post his username instead of making a game to find the guy. At least outing him forces him to explain or to give you your money back.

[Allen Graves]

Actually, outing him can get you banned from the forum. Read rule #1. If you have a problem with someone, this is not the place to discuss it.

I've seen exceptions to this rule, but not many!

AL

[SlickSki]

I can't understand this at all - if he needs money badly then why not build up his reputation and get more work. Taking 60 dollars with no chance of working with you again seems like really weird thing to do to me. I guess the moral of the story is don't part with any money until the job has been done. Perhaps easier said than done though.

[ODA Marketing]

As a person who has lost close to $1000 directly or indirectly from this forum the last year, I am tempted to agree, but I do not.

Maybe it is just me colored from living in a country where it is against the law going public with your negative opinion on a named person.

I also love this forum for what it is, a place where there is almost only positivity threads about business, and do not want to see this forum turning into a place with a lot of negative threads.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by thomasukm

You have a point here.

In fact i encountered a similar situation some time back at another forum (But there's no monetary exchange), and many people came forward to support me, and the "damn" fellow just don't dare to come out and say a single word.

To me a forum is a community, where most people are honest
To help and to grow.
But sadly, a community do have some dishonest people just like real world...

On this case, I have documented every details in my emails, messages chat, PM at WF, and I am ready to show to paypal in case they ask me for proof.

Thomas

[absbica]

my fault for not reading rule #1, and ODA Marketing has a great point. I guess I don't see much negativity in the forum and would wonder if a few circumstances would change the whole ballgame

What if the guy lost $10,000 and it could not be resolved through the admin, or any other non-public arena? $60 is one thing, but if you lost a crap ton of money and got completely screwed, I see that as being an exception where someone is getting outed as a last resort.

[thomasukm]

Thanks AL,

Thanks for reminding....I love WF.

Thanks all of you for listening to my long story....and I have already have peace of my mind.

To ODA Marketing:
Thanks for your words...i know $60 is just a peanut....and i should not waste so much time bragging about this....

I have learnt my lesson, and I will move on from here Thanks guy for all the words!

Thomas

Originally Posted by Allen Graves

Actually, outing him can get you banned from the forum. Read rule #1. If you have a problem with someone, this is not the place to discuss it.

I've seen exceptions to this rule, but not many!

AL

[Tim Franklin]

sorry to hear you had this problem, often it is obvious what is going to happen when someone begins to ignore your communications.

This is something that I cannot understand, both from a consumer standpoint and a provider standpoint, (buyer seller relationship)

Most often disagreements can be sorted if both parties just communicate.

It is very frustrating when you try to communicate with a seller of a service or product and they run like scared little children.

If people would just Man up on these situations it would be a lot better for everyone, but that just does not seem to be the answer.

Years ago, I worked as a collector, I would actually go to the door of the person that owned the bill and knock on the door.

One time this man sent his 6 year old child to the door and this kid said my dad says he is not home.

I told him to go get your dad, and out comes this 6' 5" man who is just outright huge.

Now I am sitting here thinking that this guy was afraid to come to the door to talk about a bill he had.

I really had to stop myself from laughing, (because who knows what might happen) It really made me wonder why people behave like this.

I just asked the guy when do you get paid, he told me I then asked him how much he could pay when he got his check, he told me and I said that would be fine, Problem solved.

It is all about communication, effective communication can solve a lot of problems.

but when someone just runs and refuses to talk or communicate then you have to take other steps to get the communication done. just like this post, which does not break any rules,

[Louis Raven]

Rule no.1! (may not apply seeing it's another Warrior in the wrong?)

Also, I need to "out" a few scumbags. Is it OK to divert the no.1 rule by giving clues and hints??

JK Lol

Thanks for the heads up.

Louis

[BlueSquares]

That is the golden rule.

Originally Posted by thomasukm

...only buy graphics from the trusted designer and even if paying a bit more is worth it.

[Lloyd Buchinski]

It is really surprising to me how often people are out to get
something and the dishonest means seem easier than the
honest. When someone wants to borrow something now, my
first question is usually "temporarily, or permanently?"

You do need to be super cautious about trusting people, and
your first lesson didn't cost a whole bunch. A part of the
problem for me is that I am quite honest. (At least at this point.
I did start out as a little crook growing up.)

And being honest I tended to assume that everyone else is too.
It took a lot more time and money to get that one drilled out of
me.

[TLTheLiberator]

They have a week tops then it's time to get paypal involved.


TL

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Tim Franklin

This is something that I cannot understand, both from a consumer standpoint and a provider standpoint, (buyer seller relationship)

You can't understand it, because your not a scammer!

On a side note, a good read for IMer's and for business in general would be

Satisfied Customers Tell Three Friends, Angry Customers Tell 3,000: Running a Business in Today's Consumer-Driven World

And example of this would be this very thread (w/ exception of a name)

Its really just "common sense", but if you want to make money long term- and lots of it- you won't get far scamming and deceiving people.

[Shift]

I once bought some products for a few hundred $ from a seemingly reputable company, only to never have the products delivered.

I tried to make a claim with Paypal but they said you can only claim within a 45day period, so unfortunately I lost out.

The funny thing is that if this `company' were actually honest they would make a great deal more money in the long term, instead of falling for `instant gratification'.

Good thing to know that what goes around comes around.

[thomasukm]

Hey Warrior,

Latest update...

Resolution of your case, #PP.......
'We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your
favor'

Just to update you that PayPal has decided in my favor on the 'resolution'; The guy has completely disappear from WF from the date of this thread started, but be watchful, i suspect this guy is still around in WF but with completely different nickname, email, and paypal account...

But whether the money can be recovered is im-materialise to me, as this is just a small $$...

Thanks for all the support!

Thomas

[Scott Million]

Originally Posted by thomasukm

Hey Warriors,

As in my title, i really don't like writing this sort of thread as it doesn't add value to my business but i have to do it for the sake of my fellow warriors here.

Just to let you know, i have gone to the stage of going "paypal resolution", anybody has tried paypal resolution and got back your money??

I hope you can listen to me as I'm really pissed off with this kind of people!

Here's the STORY:
Recently I have gone into a graphic design deal with a warrior (Note: This warrior is NOT from WSO).

The start was very good and a lot of promises (Hint: Damn, I even wrote him a testimonial initially, is there a way to delete it??)...as i do not paid him anything, and the service was good and fast! As his design was ok, i asked him to do more things and we agreed on a price on a certain scope of works, and I paid him full based on trust, he promised me "the sky and the moon" (by the way, i'm shocked that he would go to risk his name for the price of less than $60...)

Things start to change when I paid him, initially i thought he is just busy and he got some busy works, first time ok...

2 days later, i contact him again...and this time round he said sorry he forgot...and he will send me the files in a while....And wait and wait...nothing came....

5 days more...nothing came...
I emailed him....no reply

Here's the sign that I realised he is totally ignoring me!

I message him again, this time he was online, but he turned off his instant messaging when he saw my message...damn!
And I decided to send him another email reminding him if he's really busy, just let me know and we can work out something...don't just hide from me and get nothing done.

And, I saw him online at WF, and PM'ed him twice...no response..

I wrote him another email, no reply...

After that i decided to write him a last email....this time round i gave him a dateline in the email, because i cannot be waiting forever!

True enough! Nothing came by the dateline!

I felt that I have given him more than enough time for a simple job...and he is totally ignoring me.

I felt that I have trusted the WRONG person, i have a gut feeling that he would never email me again and i should just forget about it and move on!

Here's the conclusion:
From this i conclude that although most warriors are honest, but NOT all, so the moral of the story is BEware of who you work with...before you part with your money, open your eye..

But sometime it's hard to tell, and this warrior has told me that he used a pen name....he could still be around with other names, i don't know....and he could create another pen name....

The shocking truth is, he risk himself for less than $60 bucks! And lost a potential customer that he can do business with for more future jobs...What can $60 bucks do for you?? It doesn't make you a millionaire...

WARNING:
Oh ya...he also told me that he is planning a WSO soon....Watch ya warriors!

Disclaimer to this warrior:
IF you're reading this thread now, and you think you could still make it up for me...i'm willing to negotiate, I'm not here to make enemy but you have made me write this thread to protect other people.

Thanks for reading this long story post!

Have a great day,
Thomas

Here's how to minimize this damage in the future:

1. Pay at MOST half now half after until one or two transactions have been completed. I usually stick at the half now half later (or all after completion) if possible, unless I'm very impressed with the communication, quality of work, and turnaround time.

2. Make your initial workload very small, and build up more and more each time as the trust and relationship develop

Sounds like you did #2 (only $60), and you got your money back . Live and learn.

Scott

[Sorcerer1]

Wtf, the guy took $60 and ran... over $60? That is pathetic on the Thiefs part.

I also agree with the lessons in this thread, I am a exceptional Graphic Designer but only do a few projects here and there, I have never once missed a deadline but I always keep my clients informed and up to date on my progress, this is BUSINESS BASICS people! Customer Relationships are number 1!

OP, I understand your reasons for not exposing the Rip-Off-Merchant, but please do! He is in the wrong for what he done to you and needs to be exposed.

All the best mate,
Sorecerer

[jmidas]

Thomas, I'm glad you got your case resolved in your favor with Paypal - that is a feat in itself!

Scott's idea is a good one - regardless of what the salesperson wants, you are the customer. If they want your business, they will agree to terms of half now and half on completion.

Since when does someone deserve to be paid before they do any work? To me, that raises red flags every time.

[jmidas]

PS - despite the terms of our forum, which I would abide by, I see no good reason not to out someone like this when it is clear that the OP has done everything in a reasonable and professional manner. To me, this is part of what member-policing is all about. Just my opinion.

[naruq]

Thank you for sharing your experience with paypal.

[ODA Marketing]

Hi, Thomas.

I am glad you sorted it out, in your favor.

Take care.

Kindly regards,

Oddvar.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Kay King

Paying in advance for work not completed puts you at risk. Custom graphics or writing should be payable when completed and received.

kay

As someone who writes for a living, I have to disagree here. I always charge new customers half the fee for each project up front, with the other half being due upon completion and delivery.

That policy not only protects the customer, it protects ME, because an unknown, untried customer could easily just disappear without paying once the project is completed. If I've worked with someone for a long time and trust them, I might be more flexible on payment terms if the situation warrants it, but new customers must always pay half up front.

Stephanie

[Genesis]

Good luck with your recovery efforts Thomas. Glad you shared your experience. It's a shame we can't even trust a fellow warrior.

With the info provided in this thread it took me under 2 minutes to find our "friend" and I'm no Sherlock Holmes.

[thomasukm]

@Scott Million
Thanks for suggestion, but most graphic designer want a FULL pay upfront, btw paypal only recovered a tiny portion of the money from his account, seems like he close his paypal account too.

@Sorecerer
Thanks. But the forum has a policy which members has to observe

@jmidas
Thanks. Still, every forum has its own policy. I better follow.

@ODA Marketing
Thanks:

@ladyjane
Stephanie, i totally agree with you, and i think 50/50 is a good balance for a new relationship.

@Genesis
Thanks But take note that he is no longer posting anymore with that name.

[Scott Million]

Originally Posted by thomasukm

@Scott Million
Thanks for suggestion, but most graphic designer want a FULL pay upfront, btw paypal only recovered a tiny portion of the money from his account, seems like he close his paypal account too.

What do you mean by most graphic designers? How many have you worked with to arrive at this conclusion?

I can send you an A+ graphic designer who is a Warrior that I started off with at 50% upfront and 50% upon completion.

Now that we have a relationship I have no problem doing 100% upfront.

Spend a few minutes in the Warriors for Hire section. Seems to me you're quick on the trigger finger with freelancers if you haven't found any that will do 50% upfront. A lot of these freelancer issues can be remedied BEFORE you send payment.

Start a conversation, ask for testimonials, screen a few candidates.

Scott

[thomasukm]

Hi Scott,

Maybe i have not done enough homeworks
Thanks will check more carefully in future about freelancers.

BTW, do you mind PM me the A+ graphic designer?

Thomas

Originally Posted by Scott Million

What do you mean by most graphic designers? How many have you worked with to arrive at this conclusion?

I can send you an A+ graphic designer who is a Warrior that I started off with at 50% upfront and 50% upon completion.

Now that we have a relationship I have no problem doing 100% upfront.

Spend a few minutes in the Warriors for Hire section. Seems to me you're quick on the trigger finger with freelancers if you haven't found any that will do 50% upfront. A lot of these freelancer issues can be remedied BEFORE you send payment.

Start a conversation, ask for testimonials, screen a few candidates.

Scott