Stopping "Serial Refunders" Dead In Their Tracks

13 years ago

I think a blacklist is a great idea, don't stop at the username though ... let's blacklist the IP as well... pitch it to WSO pro... im sure they lose money on this as well and will be interested.

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Ben Gordon 13 years ago

I think we should just blacklist the PayPal account that way they have no way of purchasing unless somebody else purchases and refunds it for them. If that does happen we should just blacklist a range of IPs in their neighborhood to make sure even if they have a dynamic IP address they can't still purchase it somehow!

Thanks for the idea... it might still be long until Warrior Pro starts using it but I'll be sure to implement it into my main payment system .
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shabit87

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Burton Lancaster

I think a blacklist is a great idea, don't stop at the username though ... let's blacklist the IP as well... pitch it to WSO pro... im sure they lose money on this as well and will be interested.

I don't think the IP address is a good idea perse. God forbid someone is bouncing off of other's IP address and now due to their bad deed that person, the true owner is punished.

Also a user could easily buy a gift card and just pay through paypal using the card.

My suggestion is to set conditions, such as refunding before 5 minutes has pasted automatically denies the claim or blacklist or whatever. When setting up your product on whatever system you use, you provide a valid reason for the time set. A 20 hour video course for example would be impossible to evaluate in 4 minutes. If a user makses a request, it will automatically be declined (possbily within PayPal, I dunno).

So basically you arent so much blacklisting the person, but the habits of which these people partake in...if that makes any sense.

Thanks

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Odhinn

13 years ago

And what about people who sell a product that doesn't do what it claims to do, or a software that doesn't install/run properly on your system? Or how about those "You make $500 in twenty minutes or I give you a refund!" people, certainly they get a few refund requests because people aren't all going to go through with it.

Look, serial refunders are a problem, but why do we think that everyone who makes a refund request is doing so maliciously?

I think a blacklist is a very bad idea, because over time, anyone who's ever asked for a refund, legitimately or not, will be blacklisted sooner rather than later, and that puts a dent in your potential sales.

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Mike Hill

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Odhinn

And what about people who sell a product that doesn't do what it claims to do, or a software that doesn't install/run properly on your system? Or how about those "You make $500 in twenty minutes or I give you a refund!" people, certainly they get a few refund requests because people aren't all going to go through with it.

Look, serial refunders are a problem, but why do we think that everyone who makes a refund request is doing so maliciously?

I think a blacklist is a very bad idea, because over time, anyone who's ever asked for a refund, legitimately or not, will be blacklisted sooner rather than later, and that puts a dent in your potential sales.

I think the serial refund policy should be as such if you refund within a certain period of time from the purchase of the product. But then again they could just wait until that time elapses.

The types of refunders never read the material or use the software, they just want it.

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timpears

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

I think the serial refund policy should be as such if you refund within a certain period of time from the purchase of the product. But then again they could just wait until that time elapses.

The types of refunders never read the material or use the software, they just want it.

Typically if I refund, I will do so in the first day or two. I read the report or watch the videos, and if you can't have a sense if this is just rehashed, or just a pile of crap by that time, then I doubt you ever will. I have tried some items and they didn't work as they stated in the sales pitch, but most of the time I can tell if someone has hyped the crap out of their product.

So I don't think your 48 hours is a good barometer of anything.

As with any work from home, make money type sales arena, there is a bunch of crap offered for sale. I have bought my share of it, and so have you.

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DebbieD 13 years ago

They're talking about serial refunders, not people who refund here and there.

btw, who exactly do you consider a serial refunder. I mean, what's the criteria - is there a certain amount of refunds a person needs to ask a refund for in a certain amount of time? Gotta get that clear.

Also, about banning a serial refunder by Paypal ID - Paypal allows users to use eight (I think) e-mail addresses. So take that into account.
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- CMartin 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by DebbieD
  
  Also, about banning a serial refunder by Paypal ID - Paypal allows users to use eight (I think) e-mail addresses. So take that into account.
  
  But PayPal Account ID is unique for each account, so it can be blocked by account ID instead of email addresses... and the IPN data sent by PayPal has this info
  
  Carlos
  
  Thanks
  
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Zeus66

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Odhinn

And what about people who sell a product that doesn't do what it claims to do, or a software that doesn't install/run properly on your system? Or how about those "You make $500 in twenty minutes or I give you a refund!" people, certainly they get a few refund requests because people aren't all going to go through with it.

Look, serial refunders are a problem, but why do we think that everyone who makes a refund request is doing so maliciously?

I think a blacklist is a very bad idea, because over time, anyone who's ever asked for a refund, legitimately or not, will be blacklisted sooner rather than later, and that puts a dent in your potential sales.

Odhinn? I challenge you to a duel on Mount Olympus. You know where that is, right? Do you need to call AAA for a map? Whatever. Once you find your way to my domain, we'll see once and for all who the "Father of the Gods" really is.

Piker.

Zeus got mad skillz, boy.

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Anonymous Affiliate

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Odhinn

And what about people who sell a product that doesn't do what it claims to do, or a software that doesn't install/run properly on your system? Or how about those "You make $500 in twenty minutes or I give you a refund!" people, certainly they get a few refund requests because people aren't all going to go through with it.

Look, serial refunders are a problem, but why do we think that everyone who makes a refund request is doing so maliciously?

When someone has bought 5 products within the last half a year, and has asked for a refund on all of them, the problem is either: A) He just doesn't apply any filter to his purchasing habits whatsoever, or B) He's a serial refunder. Period.

And yes, I've had guys buying 3 different products of mine and refunding them all. That, sir, is a serial refunder that needs to be blocked out of Clickbank's system.

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markthompson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Odhinn

And what about people who sell a product that doesn't do what it claims to do, or a software that doesn't install/run properly on your system? Or how about those "You make $500 in twenty minutes or I give you a refund!" people, certainly they get a few refund requests because people aren't all going to go through with it.

Look, serial refunders are a problem, but why do we think that everyone who makes a refund request is doing so maliciously?

I think a blacklist is a very bad idea, because over time, anyone who's ever asked for a refund, legitimately or not, will be blacklisted sooner rather than later, and that puts a dent in your potential sales.

Excellent point! I think the reason we have so many serial refunders is because of the amount of crappy products out there nowdays!

There are way to many "Push Button Softwares" and courses claiming to provide you the blueprint to 6 figure success overnight.

There needs to be more accountability for the product creator. We need some sort of system that calls these people out and makes buyers aware of their track records. Reviews are a start...but those can easily be manipulated with people giving away their free crap product for a testimonial.

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Johnny Slater

13 years ago

It would be pretty easy to do something like track times of sales and refunds. Then if you see someone getting refunds on 50% or more of their purchases within 48 hours of purchase you know that they are a serial refunder and can block them.

Tracking and stats are not that hard and it wouldn't take much to put into place to create an an auto serial refunder ban feature.

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seobro

13 years ago

Hi Mick:
This problem is indeed growing. Yeah, on that we can agree. What I have done is print out manuals in the form of paper. OK since they are not digital items anymore, customers have to pay postage as well as wait a few days for shipping to receive one.

There is a 30 day money back guarantee, but they must return the item and pay shipping it back to me. Most serial returners are way too lazy to do this so, and I only have 3% return rate on non digital items mon ami.

A friend of mine who still uses pay pal for selling reports is now moving to ask people for personal checks and or a mo. He is tired of all the hassles with credit cards and prefers people to pay using a mo.

His return rate with pay pal using non digital items was approx 10% and with personal checks near zero. Sometimes, the old ways are the best ways. I also considering asking my consumers to send me a personal check or a mo.

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Michael Meaney

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Burton Lancaster

pitch it to WSO pro... im sure they lose money on this as well and will be interested.

Yep, sent this idea to them last week.

Originally Posted by seobro

Hi Mick:
This problem is indeed growing. Yeah, on that we can agree. What I have done is print out manuals in the form of paper. OK since they are not digital items anymore, customers have to pay postage as well as wait a few days for shipping to receive one.

I've been tempted to do this myself, I haven't figured out how to automate it in a similar way to digital downloads yet.

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LeeLee

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

Yep, sent this idea to them last week.

I've been tempted to do this myself, I haven't figured out how to automate it in a similar way to digital downloads yet.

What about a fulfillment company?

I can't remember the name of the company but they became really popular after ebay banned digital downloads.

You set your cd up in their system and they ship a physical cd to your customer. I think they may have even handled returns.

And there are companies that do hard copies too.

ETA: I found the one I was thinking of, Kunaki. I never personally used them so I can't vouch but there was a lot of buzz about them. And I am sure there are many more.

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Michael Meaney

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LeeLee

ETA: I found the one I was thinking of, Kunaki. I never personally used them so I can't vouch but there was a lot of buzz about them. And I am sure there are many more.

Thanks for that, I've seen Kunaki before.. it's automating the payment and sending the info to the company that I can't get my head around. Maybe it's time to outsource this stuff.

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VinnyBock 13 years ago

How come people just can't put all their digital products on their website requiring a user name and password to access?

For 30 days or what ever you have the ability
to change their password...

Their must be a negative side to this, because many people don't do this...
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LeeLee

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

Thanks for that, I've seen Kunaki before.. it's automating the payment and sending the info to the company that I can't get my head around. Maybe it's time to outsource this stuff.

I'm not sure what areas are holding you up. I looked into this and sending the info to the company seemed pretty straight forward and I am a totally waste case when it comes to anything technical.

I also found this on their site about the payments:

What is the "publish your CD/DVD product at no cost to you" service?

The service lets you outsource: order acceptance, manufacturing, packing, shipping, and customer service.
You set the retail price. We set up a sales page for your product; accept credit-card or paypal orders on your behalf; manufacture and ship directly to your customers -- on demand.
The service integrates manufacturing, order-taking, packing, shipping, tracking, accounting, and customer service into one seamless, frictionless system that minimizes costs, errors and time.
We provide you with real-time accounting data, customer names and addresses.
You have two options to collect the sales proceeds:
- We collect the sales proceeds on your behalf. Each month we send you a check for the quantity sold multiplied by your retail price minus the manufacturing cost and a 5 percent transaction fee.
- The sales proceeds flow directly and instantly into your own paypal account.

I imagine if you have a mind to do a lot of products this would be preferable to finding a dedicated outsourcer who you would likely have to train anyway. I don't know what their customer service is like, but in this competitive world, I would imagine someone would hold your hand to get you started.

BTW I have no association at all with Kunaki.

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Heidi White

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seobro

Hi Mick:
This problem is indeed growing. Yeah, on that we can agree. What I have done is print out manuals in the form of paper. OK since they are not digital items anymore, customers have to pay postage as well as wait a few days for shipping to receive one.

There is a 30 day money back guarantee, but they must return the item and pay shipping it back to me. Most serial returners are way too lazy to do this so, and I only have 3% return rate on non digital items mon ami.

A friend of mine who still uses pay pal for selling reports is now moving to ask people for personal checks and or a mo. He is tired of all the hassles with credit cards and prefers people to pay using a mo.

His return rate with pay pal using non digital items was approx 10% and with personal checks near zero. Sometimes, the old ways are the best ways. I also considering asking my consumers to send me a personal check or a mo.

I don't know what you're selling - but as a customer - I would say 'heck no' I'll buy something else - I want it digital - I want it now and I want to use Paypal (not a check or mo)

The net affect of refunds vs a reduction in overall sales has to be considered here . no?

Heidi

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Fernando Veloso

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

I
Each buyer could have a limited number, or a set percentage, of allowed refunds. If they exceed that limit, they are blocked from buying any product using WSO Pro.

Or perhaps another way of doing it could be...

If 2 or more sellers click the 'blacklist' button, that buyer is blocked from buying anymore products being sold via that system.

+1000

I think Mike should give this a GO in partnership with Allen and see what gives.

We ALL need a long standing solution - putting serial refunders outside the loop is just the start.

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CyberSorcerer

13 years ago

How about a reporting site where IMer's can just take the refunders paypal name, IP, time of purchase, amount, etc and input it into the a form and the site stores it in the database.

An algorithm can be made to analyze the input, cross referencing the name, IP, time, etc with all other entries matching that record and flag the person percentage of refunds to purchases, time between refunds, etc.

This way when you input the record you can also see what his refund percentage is along with other important stats. No personal information just how often he/she refunds, time between refunds, etc.

I have been wanting to do a site like this and collaborate with others in getting the details down. I can program it so that's not an issue.

What's do you all think?

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builder4580

13 years ago

Who are these serial refunders? I suspect a lot (maybe the majority) are IMers looking for NEW information. When they make a purchase and find they are just getting regurgitated OLD information who can blame them for asking for a refund.
Newbies and inexperienced IMers, on the other hand, may be seeing this regurgitated material for the first time and believe they have finally stumbled upon the Holy Grail.
I believe to ban any refunder is short sighted and ultimately bad for WSO's.
While I personally have never refunded, I have purchased what I consider garbage reports. Simple solution for me - never buy a WSO indiscriminately, they are no better than Clickbank offers.
The way to stop refunders is to provide quality fresh content, I believe.

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The 13th Warrior 13 years ago

Originally Posted by builder4580

The way to stop refunders is to provide quality fresh content, I believe.

That quite naive.

Those who are providing quality fresh content, as you so put it, would be scammed the most because the scammer can get real good , top quality stuff for free.

Folks serial refund for any number of reasons, some legitimate, some not, does not mean a product owner should live with it if he has a measure of control, most especially digital products THAT CAN'T BE RETURNED.

Are you forgetting Christmas or Birthdays, when people did not even PAY for the item, and return it for cash, and not because it was not high quality either.

At least a physical product can be returned, depending on damage, and be resold again.

A serial refunder, in general, wants EVERTHING FREE.

Get it?

Thats the point.

Why be a scammer if you are not going to do it right?

The 13th Warrior
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Joshua Rigley

Banned 13 years ago

There was a service called "badcustomers" or something like that. That service was abused by unethical sellers, who would threaten anyone who asked for a refund to blacklist them.

IMHO, it's best if people just develop their own personal policy for dealing with serial refunders and deal with them as they come.

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CoffeeIceCream

13 years ago

This is very similar to the people who buy clothing, wear it and then return it. Or people who buy new books, read 'em, and then take them back. I think the blacklist is a good idea, but it won't stop people from being dishonest in general.

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David Sieg

13 years ago

I contacted another warrior a couple of weeks ago about this same idea. I wrote...

"...the idea is basically an online serial refunder, eBook thief database. If someone has a suspicion or knows, name, email address, IP address etc, is added to a database. Maybe their is some sort of filtering mechanism involved, i.e. a name has to be submitted 3 times, from 3 different vendors, etc. (Some criteria so competitors couldn't screw each other) It could even be tied in to various payment processors, e-junkie.com, or even better, Clickbank, for example (Why aren't ANY OF THEM DOING THIS?? Insurance companies, credit bureaus for example keep track of people across boundaries for this reason.)

Lets say for example, registered and recognized eBook thief "X" makes a purchase. The vendor is alerted. he has the option of letting the sale go through, blocking the sale, and/or refunding the sale without letting his product go through, or any number of options to be decided.

Charge a small fee for the service $5 a month or so, or integrate with payment processors, and they could use it as an "add on" service.

Of course, eBook thief "X" could just change email addresses, but this is where multiple filtering factors come into play. Chances are he wouldn't change is name, IP address, credit card info, buying preferences, etc. Of course he could, but he would be identified again shortly. The secret would be to keep the filtering criteria confidential."

I would be very interested in starting something like this.

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Regional Warrior

13 years ago

Mick

Not so log ago we had a security software product on the market and went through the whole serial refunders
so what we did is let the customers know that if they request a refund it would be provided at the end of the
Guarantee i.e 30days.It did stop the flow of refunds from say 20 a month to 1 ,

I do not know if this will or would work in the IM filed but I see no reason as to why It would not ! being that you are the
Creator of the product and you put that in the T&Cs. or you could just do what Big Mike does and not offer one.

It does stop people from buying the product if they know in advance that they do not get there money back until
30,14 or 7 days time , most of the problem is that if you create a great product but has no way of stopping anyone
from uploading to another site(Blue fart) It will stop most as they do not have too much to go around in there Pay pal account

Jason

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Burton Lancaster

13 years ago

I just noticed a black list button in WSO PRO ;;thumbs up::

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matchoo77 13 years ago

I'd have to say screw worrying about serial refunders and focus on getting more sales. Refunds are part of doing business, especially online.
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Walters

13 years ago

Good luck with that, But I think it is a long shoot. And it will not be easy. serial refunders will always be here and dubbing us whether you like it or not. The best we can do is try to slow down the amount and prevent them from growing.

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halfpoint

13 years ago

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theemperor

13 years ago

I think this is taking the wrong approach to dealing with the problem (kind of like a plaster over the symptom but not the cause).

If your business model attracts serial refunders, then change the business model. For example move from a one-off payemt to a membership. Or from ebooks to software (which can have expiring license codes).

Nothing fool proof but you can put off the people who want to get something for free.

And those who genuinely want a refund because they hated the product? - well that is something you should be happy to give.

Seems like people are happy to enjoy the increased sales that come from the assurance of offering a money-back guarantee, but not prepared to take the downside that yes people do ask for refunds and sometimes those people are just getting a refund because they are tight and freebie-seeking.

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Burton Lancaster

13 years ago

The term serial refunders is referring to one person seeking refunds on multiple products / ebooks from multiple sellers.

Most of these guys are either leaking the products or re-selling them on other sites.

All it takes to "attract" a serial refunder is to have a good product that a lot of people are requesting.

Most of the time "serial refunders" go straight to the pay-pal payment reversal rather than requesting the refund from the seller and will not open up any communication dialog as of why they were disappointed with the product.

This is not a concern for most of my products for we use an advanced licensing server but I really feel for those who are being taken advantage of by these scam artist.

Originally Posted by theemperor

I think this is taking the wrong approach to dealing with the problem (kind of like a plaster over the symptom but not the cause).

If your business model attracts serial refunders, then change the business model. For example move from a one-off payemt to a membership. Or from ebooks to software (which can have expiring license codes).

Nothing fool proof but you can put off the people who want to get something for free.

And those who genuinely want a refund because they hated the product? - well that is something you should be happy to give.

Seems like people are happy to enjoy the increased sales that come from the assurance of offering a money-back guarantee, but not prepared to take the downside that yes people do ask for refunds and sometimes those people are just getting a refund because they are tight and freebie-seeking.

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aaronngoh

13 years ago

First point,why people refund? the assumption here is they "steal" the product.

What about the case that the product does not meet it requirement?

If you want money back guarantee as a marketing tactic to get more sales, (assuming the product is real solid) then do the sum how many extra sales do you get?

Is it a worth while marketing tactic?

If the product has more than 10% refund rate, then it is time to bring back the product to the experiment lab.

Hope it makes sense

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The 13th Warrior

13 years ago

Originally Posted by aaronngoh

First point,why people refund? the assumption here is they "steal" the product.

What about the case that the product does not meet it requirement?

If you want money back guarantee as a marketing tactic to get more sales, (assuming the product is real solid) then do the sum how many extra sales do you get?

Is it a worth while marketing tactic?

If the product has more than 10% refund rate, then it is time to bring back the product to the experiment lab.

Hope it makes sense

If you serial refund from a product producer 4 out of 10 times or more, that says as much about YOU as the product producer.

Why are you still buying CRAP from a crap producer.., says either you are a little cracked in the head or a scammer.

The other case is , if you are just too picky, we've all seen these type people in restaurants, where every little things got to be just right, the product producer don't want your business and you, nut job, should find vendors, product producers that meet your expectations ALL the time.

The 13th Warrior

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mywebwork

13 years ago

In principle I like the idea, but putting it into practice is going to be a challenge. If done incorrectly it could cause as many problems as it solves:

IP Address - definitely not a good idea. I'm on a DSL modem, I can change my IP Address just by rebooting it (and I often do when the darn thing locks up). I can also get a new IP address by making my purchase with my netbook while riding on the train, in a shopping mall or at a coffee shop - admittedly not the most intelligent places to be doing a PayPal transaction but possible nonetheless. So an IP address-based system can be easily thwarted, and could very well lock out legitimate customers.

Also, giving merchants the power to blacklist an individual sounds great, but could also be abused. Refund my crappy "Make 6000 dollars a day with no work" WSO will you - you're blacklisted buddy! There has to be some method of policing the merchants as well as the consumers, after all some refunds are entirely justified. Even those refunds that come one minute after a purchase can be legitimate - I personally know someone who has purchased the same product twice (actually she has done this more than once!) and only realized her error after buying it the second time.

Please don't get me wrong, I love the idea. But like any protection system (Digital Rights Management is another example) it has to be done in a way that makes it almost impossible to lock out honest people, while being robust enough to keep the bad guys out. And that is not an easy task.

Bill

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mayan21

13 years ago

LOl, ok there is 10 products for 8$ and all of them saying if u buy this u will make 500$, 1000$ in 1 week/month or i will refund u, and a member goes to buy all of them, then he realize there is nothing in those ebooks and he wont made any money, so whats his option? ask for refunds for all 10 wso's, he have rights to do so, how can u blacklist them? most of wso offers non-question asked refunds.

I think this is a stupid idea but good for sellers anyway, try to start a seller rating system and a method to blacklist bad sellers. not buyers. no one will ever ask for a refund if the product help him to make a signal doller

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The 13th Warrior

13 years ago

Originally Posted by mayan21

try to start a seller rating system and a method to blacklist bad sellers. not buyers. no one will ever ask for a refund if the product help him to make a signal doller

Thats overly biased.

There ARE bad buyers as well as sellers.

The 13th Warrior

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fonoi

13 years ago

I believe that internet marketing will always have a high percentage of refund requests including serial refunders.

There are many people out there who purchase "make money online" ebooks and courses and are dissapointed when they find out it actually involves some work

This is a difficult issue to address as I belive the people who would do these types of things will find a way to circument any protection you apply. This is made infinitly more difficult as the consumer who does not scam you see's your attempt at protecting your product as a detterent to purchase.

There are many ways to secure pdf's etc, sadly when you inform people that your ebook has a protection that requires an additional download many will simply not purchase.

The person who can come up with a user friendly solution to this problem will be very rich indeed. Imagine a system where the user did not have to download anything else, the file was locked from being copied or moved while in the refund period and if a refund was requested the file deleted from the users machine.

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Key Largo

13 years ago

I can imagine your frustration if you have to refund for a sound product, to someone who you know is just buying the product for nothing. But, let's face it, the kind of people who do that can just as easily get hold of almost any product for free through other avenues!

I know a very famous store in London, that has a policy of a no questions refund on anything - except the obvious like lingerie

I've heard first hand of the frustration felt by some concessions within the store, who've had customers 'buy' a £3000 dining table and then return it the following week, after their dinner party! But, they live with it, because they know it is worth being in the store.

I don't see any of the suggestions to identify and prevent 'serial refunders' as being a wise course to take.

I try to only buy a WSO product that I think I'm going to find value in, because I don't want to waste my time going through something useless and then getting a refund. Unfortunately, it has become so commonplace to have sales letters that are half-truths at best, to receive wonderful promotional emails from Warrior affiliates extolling the next amazing (but junk) product and to read posts saying what a wonderful product such junk is.

In such situations it is hard to make a sound judgement and at some point one decides to buy. I now have adopted a zero tolerance to products that don't live up to their hype (or because they deceive, rather than outright lie, in the sales copy). I just ask for a refund immediately I discover this, which may be within hours, or days/weeks, depending upon how quickly I get to evaluate it. I can well imagine I could be seen as a 'serial refunder', but the problem lies with the product pushers, not with my desire to scam them. In fact, I sometimes think I should be paid for having wasted my time

The only WSO I've bought recently that has lived up to its promise was the (now closed) Google Magic at $25. I felt this to be worth much more than asked. Had I been marked as a 'serial refunder' because of the refunds on my 3 previous $7 type WSO purchases, not only would I never have been fortunate enough to get the product, but it would have been $25 out of pocket for a good product seller, because those selling poor products said I was unreliable.

Below, I've pulled just a few of the posts from thread to comment on.

Originally Posted by Ben Gordon

I think we should just blacklist the PayPal account that way they have no way of purchasing unless somebody else purchases and refunds it for them. If that does happen we should just blacklist a range of IPs in their neighborhood to make sure even if they have a dynamic IP address they can't still purchase it somehow!

IP neighbourhood is not a good way to go, there are so many ways around that by those who wish to do so and it will only harm legit buyers unfortunate enough to be caught in that general area.

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

Each buyer could have a limited number, or a set percentage, of allowed refunds. If they exceed that limit, they are blocked from buying any product using WSO Pro.
The problem as a buyer is that then you leave yourself open to getting ripped off by a bad product, but are reluctant to refund because it's going to increase your count
Or perhaps another way of doing it could be...

If 2 or more sellers click the 'blacklist' button, that buyer is blocked from buying anymore products being sold via that system.
This could be fine, if the sellers were somehow to be trusted in their evaluation, rather than because they don't wish to face the fact they are selling a poor product.

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

It would be pretty easy to do something like track times of sales and refunds. Then if you see someone getting refunds on 50% or more of their purchases within 48 hours of purchase you know that they are a serial refunder and can block them.

As I wrote above, this isn't reasonable, because often as a buyer you can tell within minutes that you've been sold a pup.

Originally Posted by Burton Lancaster

I just noticed a black list button in WSO PRO ;;thumbs up::

Probably also a thumbs up for all the dubious sellers as well as the ones with integrity.

This isn't a rant at all WSO sellers, because just like there are 'serial bad buyers' there are 'serial bad sellers' and this can tarnish the genuine ones. It is just that I don't think systems like those proposed will work without ultimately damaging sales and customer relationships. While Warrior can be great, contrary to what some people seem to think, it is not the centre of the Universe (or even the IM one) and you don't want to deliberately drive away genuine customers while trying to get rid of the dodgy ones.

KL

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Burton Lancaster

13 years ago

Probably also a thumbs up for all the dubious sellers as well as the ones with integrity.

Dubious sellers would care less about black listing. Obviously if their product is crap they probably do not care much about protecting it.

Black listing is a feature for sellers of integrity, looking to prevent leaking the method to a large forum which not only affects the seller but also affects buyers!

When a method leaks to a large forum, it cheats all the legit paying buyers by potentially over saturated the method to the point it is of no value to the buyers or leachers.

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WillR

13 years ago

I think this is a case of... I told you so.

IM'ers have been using outrageous guarantees for years now to help increase their conversions and sell more stuff. Finally this tactic is catching up with them and I can't say I feel very sorry for them.

Refunds are a part of ANY business that decides to offer a guarantee. You can't offer a guarantee and then complain when people use it. If you want the extra sales that come with having a strong guarantee then you need to be willing to stand up and accept the refunds that arise also. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Having a setup where vendors can report serial refunders would be a huge mistake. There are a lot of less than honest vendors out there and just because one person thinks a customer is dishonest does not mean they are. This would have the potential to be abused in a HUGE way.

Just accept them and move on I say. Take peace in the fact the sort of people who serial refund will never make a dime online anyway... so just laugh and move on.

Think of it like road rage. If someone cuts you off in traffic you have 2 options. You can get angry and start swearing at them or you can just laugh it off and drive on. The outcome is going to be the same in both cases but getting angry about it will just ruin YOUR day - not theirs.

Originally Posted by Regional Warrior

It does stop people from buying the product if they know in advance that they do not get there money back until
30,14 or 7 days time , most of the problem is that if you create a great product but has no way of stopping anyone
from uploading to another site(Blue fart) It will stop most as they do not have too much to go around in there Pay pal account

This wouldn't stop anything, especially in the WSO type setup. Most WSO's are sold using Paypal and people know they can go directly through Paypal and file a dispute. So it doesn't matter when you tell them they will get the money - they know they can just go directly to Paypal and cause even more problems for you.

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Key Largo

13 years ago

Originally Posted by WillR

Just accept them and move on I say. Take peace in the fact the sort of people who serial refund will never make a dime online anyway... so just laugh and move on.

Think of it like road rage. If someone cuts you off in traffic you have 2 options. You can get angry and start swearing at them or you can just laugh it off and drive on. The outcome is going to be the same in both cases but getting angry about it will just ruin YOUR day - not theirs.

Totally agree, just ignore and move on.

Originally Posted by Burton Lancaster

Black listing is a feature for sellers of integrity, looking to prevent leaking the method to a large forum which not only affects the seller but also affects buyers!

When a method leaks to a large forum, it cheats all the legit paying buyers by potentially over saturated the method to the point it is of no value to the buyers or leachers.

Sadly, I think the products will leak anyway. There can be consolation in the fact that most people who get things for free would never buy them anyway, so little money is actually lost from the product sale. The over saturation can be a real problem for some products, I agree. I'd guess, without doing a check, that these are a relatively small number of WSOs. Also need to bear in mind that just because someone buys something doesn't mean they will actually use it and this goes even more for freebie seekers.

KL

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LB

13 years ago

There's two really easy things that could be done to reduce this.

1. Paypal should allow personal blacklists. I shouldn't have to depend on a third-party system to block certain buyers. Paypal could easily let me filter out people by their Paypal email address.

2. Payment systems like ejunkie, WSOPro, etc. could implement a filter that could be configured by account like: "Block buyers who have requested X refunds within the last X days." ebay does something similar by allowing the blocking of bids from accounts with little or no feedback. This would not create any sort of centralized list but would allow each seller to determine their level of risk.

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Chris Sorrell 13 years ago

Here's how to stop serial refunders in their tracks...

Don't sell make money online products to lazy dreamers who can't believe that it actually takes time and effort to make a good living.

There are much bigger markets with much more sensible customers who simply want solid info given to them and wouldn't even dream of refunding a perfectly legitimate product.

There are plenty of ways to make money online without having to resort to selling products on how to make money online. Who'd have thought?
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jezbiz

13 years ago

these refunders would certainly cause a lot of harm especially for first time info product creators..

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JamesGw

13 years ago

It'd definitely have to be a percentage and pretty high as well, I think. If you refund over 50% of the products you buy or something, then you should get B&*

*number of purchases would have to exceed 10 before this kicks in.

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David Hooper

13 years ago

This topic always reminds me of a friend of mine who was a slumlord and got pissed because she was getting bad tenants. Not calling you guys slumlords, but the problem can easily be solved by providing better services/products and putting your focus into attracting better customers.

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azmanar

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Hooper

This topic always reminds me of a friend of mine who was a slumlord and got pissed because she was getting bad tenants. Not calling you guys slumlords, but the problem can easily be solved by providing better services/products and putting your focus into attracting better customers.

The K-factor or constant in this business is SERIAL REFUNDERS.

They go for good products that sell well. Then they leak these products to their community members in paid and unpaid forums.

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marciayudkin

13 years ago

Each buyer could have a limited number, or a set percentage, of allowed refunds. If they exceed that limit, they are blocked from buying any product using WSO Pro.

When I lived in a suburb of Boston, the public library had a policy similar to this: If you claimed that you had returned items that showed up in their system as not having been returned, more than a certain number of times, you were not allowed to take out more items from the library unless you paid the fine for them.

The trouble with this policy was that it caught up someone who was honest (me) and I was not happy with it at all.

The trouble with your "Serial Refunder" proposal is the same. It has the potential to catch honest buyers who have had the bad luck of buying horrible products that deserved refund requests.

Marcia Yudkin

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Key Largo

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Sorrell

Here's how to stop serial refunders in their tracks...

Don't sell make money online products to lazy dreamers who can't believe that it actually takes time and effort to make a good living.

There are much bigger markets with much more sensible customers who simply want solid info given to them and wouldn't even dream of refunding a perfectly legitimate product.

There are plenty of ways to make money online without having to resort to selling products on how to make money online. Who'd have thought?

I was thinking along similar lines, the problem is so bad in IM because so many people know you can just get a refund. Outside of IM is far more mellow and relaxed.

Originally Posted by David Hooper

This topic always reminds me of a friend of mine who was a slumlord and got pissed because she was getting bad tenants. Not calling you guys slumlords, but the problem can easily be solved by providing better services/products and putting your focus into attracting better customers.

The analogy is fairly apt in more than just a few cases. The problem comes for the good landlords, who are effected by all the lowlife that their neighbours have rented to.

Originally Posted by WarriorPlus

Hi Michael,

Feel free to open up a support ticket so we can discuss this. There are many reasons, some legitimate, some not, for multiple IPs.!

Now, probably rare for me to agree with Warrior, but here I see a solution. Rather than having a field day of mayhem on all and sundry and letting the lynch mob decide who is guilty, it would be much wiser to evaluate who actually really is just taking the product sellers for a ride. The stats that Warrior hold, with feedback from sellers, should make it easier to at least clear the main culprits.

I don't go with the 'he refunded from me 3 times' argument, having done close to that myself because because the seller was duping me into buying. If he lies in his copy, I get a refund. Nice and simple, don't lie, tell the truth and I'll keep it

KL

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Michael D Forbes

13 years ago

A little side note for you WSO Pro users.. what would you/do you do about people that download 20 times on 15 different IP's? I would love to make the perpetrators name public, but I'm sure there's an "honest" reason for that, right?

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azmanar

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Micheal D Forbes

A little side note for you WSO Pro users.. what would you/do you do about people that download 20 times on 15 different IP's? I would love to make the perpetrators name public, but I'm sure there's an "honest" reason for that, right?

Eventhough most assumptions are wrong, yet I suspect that particular WarriorPlus account is being shared by a group of people.

Personally, I would have 6 different sets of IPs depending on where I logon :
1. Wireless Mobile in trains or highway stops
2. Home
3. Office
4. Cafes, Restaurants
5. Clients' office
6. Hotels ( Europe, Middle-East, South Asia and East Asia )

Despite those varied IPs, I would only download WSOs twice when one of the following occurs:
-> the file is corrupted
-> Need the file urgently but it is in my external hardisk back home
-> Accidentally deleted the file
-> Was told by the creator to download an updated version
-> Was downloading but got disconnected
-> W+ system was playing truant ( occurred once few weeks ago ).

So the probability of downloading more than 2 times is very low, in my case. Some people may have to download thrice, depending on their situations.

So, its better to discuss this matter with Mike Lantz.

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WarriorPlus

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Micheal D Forbes

A little side note for you WSO Pro users.. what would you/do you do about people that download 20 times on 15 different IP's? I would love to make the perpetrators name public, but I'm sure there's an "honest" reason for that, right?

Hi Michael,

Feel free to open up a support ticket so we can discuss this. There are many reasons, some legitimate, some not, for multiple IPs.

Thanks!

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ERPConsultant

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

So.. let's use WSO Pro in this example (because most of us use it)..

Each buyer could have a limited number, or a set percentage, of allowed refunds. If they exceed that limit, they are blocked from buying any product using WSO Pro.

In that case the sales page should mention this in the money back guarantee section: "Be warned that if you do ask for your money back, you will be added to our black list".

Imagine what effect it would have on your sales!

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

If 2 or more sellers click the 'blacklist' button, that buyer is blocked from buying anymore products being sold via that system.

How about a 'blacklist' button where buyers can blacklist sellers whose products do not live up to the promises in their sales pages.

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

What do you guys think?

The net effect would be that your sales would be much less as it would limit legitimate buyers.

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Michael Meaney

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ERPConsultant

In that case the sales page should mention this in the money back guarantee section: "Be warned that if you do ask for your money back, you will be added to our black list".
Imagine what effect it would have on your sales!

Doubt many would blacklist somebody for a single refund if there's no pattern.

How about a 'blacklist' button where buyers can blacklist sellers whose products do not live up to the promises in their sales pages.

I like that idea.

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AlphaWarrior

13 years ago

Folks, it is really easy to get rid of "serial refunders" (and all request for refunds for that matter), simply stop selling products. You don't sell products, you don't have refunds. It's simple.

Seriously, the only way that you would know whether or not a particular buyer is a "serial refunder" is if you are selling multiple products to that same particular buyer. If you recognize that a particular buyer has bought multiple items from you only to request a refund each time, then refuse to sell to that individual.

If you think that anyone who request a refund is a "serial refunder" simply because the refund request comes in a very short time after the purchase, then you are probably wrong. People buy on the internet sight unseen. They cannot inspect before they buy. When they get your product, they check it out and quickly decide that it is not what they thought that it was and request a refund.

If you think that anyone who request a refund is a "serial refunder" simply because, in your opinion, your product is great and only a "serial refunder" would request a refund, then you are fooling yourself. Not every product is great and not every product is what every buyer wants. It is the buyer's money and the buyer's sole decision as to whether your product is good or bad and whether or not it is worth the purchase price.

I don't know anything about the product that the op or other posters are selling, but every time I see one of these "refund" threads, all I see is someone who is selling trash and who becomes mad when anyone wants a refund. It is almost as if they think that if they can fool a buyer into buying, then the buyer should simply "stick his/her tail between his/her legs" and accept having money stolen from them.

My belief is to (1) either stop selling products, (2) make your product better so that people do not request refunds, or (3) be honest in your advertisements so that when people get your product, it is what was advertised and what they are expecting.

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sam12six

13 years ago

Banning IP's... like they can't get another one.

Banning paypal accounts... like they can't get someone else to buy stuff for them.

The foolproof way to prevent refunds is to get a name/address with each purchase, then send a guy to their house to kill them. Following this method, it's unlikely they will become serial refunders.

-------

On a serious note, I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

If you offer an unconditional money back guarantee, you're opening yourself to people scamming the system to get your stuff free. That loss is theoretically offset by the increased conversions the guarantee generates.

If you feel that the losses outweigh the gains, stop offering refunds.

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ContentIn48Hours

13 years ago

Serial refunders are always going to be one step ahead of whatever system is developed to stop them. If you develop a system in which you think will stop them or slow them down, I can almost guarantee they will have a way around before your system is even complete. Refunds are frustrating, but it is just a part of any business. Every business that offers a guarantee will also have refunds to go with that.

Steve

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MatthewNeer

13 years ago

Great idea man, but I'm afraid if someone wants something bad enough, they are going to get it. Its not hard, all ya gotta do is create a new alias account and then buy and refund.

You could block credit card transactions/numbers, but then they could just get a Wal Mart Money Card...

THE SOLUTION: Create great products, advertise more and dont worry about the shady folks, they will always be out there and you should focus your attention on growing your business and increasing your advertising, not on the negative poopy stuff...

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anton343

13 years ago

i agree serial refunders are a problem, but why not tackle both sides of the problem.

If someone runs a WSO and gets to many refunds because the product is either mis-sold or is crap ban their IP from the forum also.

Anton

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CDarklock

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

for sales management systems to increase seller protection and blacklist refunders

Let me lay this out.

Serial refunders are stupid. They are people with a flawed, broken view of the world which leads them to think it's okay to buy whatever they want and then ask for their money back because they didn't really want to spend it.

Blacklisters are stupid, too. They have the same flawed, broken view of the world which leads them to think it's okay to offer a guarantee and then punish people for using it because they didn't really want to give the money back.

Both groups need to grow the hell up and get a damn clue.

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yourdogguy

13 years ago

I found this an interesting thread, although I have never asked for a refund on any WSO that I purchased I have been disappointed in some of my purchases.

I guess I blame myself for giving into the hype. At the moment however I am working on my own WSO.

But of the those of you who have concerns about serial refunders.............

Please take a look at the threads in the WSO forum( I counted 350) and please make an estimate of how many of the claims made are realistic, in other words delivering the goods.

At the time of this post* the headlines of the First 3 Posts in the WSO forum are all suggesting that you can make over $20,000. per month....if you just buy their WSO *12:02 am EST on 9/24/2011

I attached a screen capture just to confirm it.

So post your estimates of the 350 WSOs .........are 10% the real deal? 9 8 7 ...1%???

Looking forward to your replies

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EvanBeck

13 years ago

Some excellent ideas here. You would think that the payment and fulfillment services would want to look into this, too. You know it has to be a pain and labor intensive for them to handle boatloads of refunds.

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MikesWebShow

13 years ago

I have heard all kinds of strategies for stopping serial refunders.

Perhaps if the price points were higher you would have less people taking advantage of the program (since most pay with Paypal and many don't have much money in their accounts).

They would then have to use major credit cards which make the refund process much more difficult. (30 day period, proof of working with the merchant to resolve the complaint, faxing, etc.)

But, as I recently discovered, some programs take the refund concern off the table entirely!

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celente

13 years ago

I have a series of ways to stop the serial refunders, because they are out there.

You can blacklist ip addresses or even paypal adresses.

In all seriousness, you will not stop all the refunders that come your way. But just ensure that you have good products, and backups....and also give them a freebie after they pay and download your stuff. That always decreases our refund rates, as people are feeling like they are getting a free bargain, and they are more likely not turn into serial refunders down the track.

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ankur sharma

13 years ago

I think this idea should be implemented. There should be a solution where system display "how many refunds/how many purchases" .

So, if i see refund rate of 90%, this means out of last 100 wsos purchased, user asked refund from last 90%. I should better ban these type of users. Now, any seller can chose this % range. Like if someone want to sell to everyone, including serial refunders (for any reason), he can chose "100%". So, anyone who is below 100% rate, he can buy the product.

However, more conservative sellers can chose 40% . Obviously, minimum 10 purchases are necessary before implementing these fences for buyers.

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robp12 13 years ago

It's a shame some people take advantage of the system to get free products when people have worked hard to create them..

I've asked for refunds online twice before, once on an E-Book and once for Genesis because they really didn't fit what I was looking for and were really of no value to me. I asked for a refund and promptly received it. I honestly felt bad when asking for one, but when the product was of no use to me, it was a lot of money to spend with no value added..
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dagaul101

13 years ago

It would make sense for each buyer to have a limited amount of refunds per month, but then again payment systems like Paypal are very buyer centric, so all wil be done to please the buyer

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sethczerepak

12 years ago

I'm suspecting, and hoping, that in the near future people will have designated screen names just as they now have social security numbers. This screen name would be attached to your true identity and required to set up any membership anywhere online. Trying to create a new one would be just as hard (and just as illegal) as creating a new social security # to commit credit fraud. It would add a lot of accountability and transparency to the internet, and blacklisting refund thieves worldwide would be much simpler.

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sbucciarel

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mick Meaney

Giving this problem a bit of thought, I think one possible way to stop them - or least slow them down, could be for sales management systems to increase seller protection and blacklist refunders, on a network wide basis.

I use DLGuard for payment/delivery. If a person requests a refund from me, they go into DLGuard's ban list and they can never purchase anything from me again. That pretty much puts serial refunding in the crap can where it belongs.

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Stopping "Serial Refunders" Dead In Their Tracks

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