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UPDATE: Why I'm NOT giving you a refund - 1st time for everything

by Michael Oksa
49 replies
So...

I have always had a very liberal, and UNWRITTEN, refund policy.

I don't print it, but my rule has always been "if you ask for a refund, you get it with no questions asked". That cuts down on the serial refunders and keeps people happy. My refund rate is well below 1%.

A few days ago I said "ENOUGH!"

What was it that made me deny the refund request?

In a word: dishonesty.

See, what happened is the buyer told PayPal that they never received the file. Okay, fair enough, I know that stiff happens, so I checked my logs.

HA!

It turns out that my records not only show that it was downloaded, but they also show that it was downloaded from servers in Encino, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C.

What irritated me is that they lied to PayPal and that could potentially have a negative impact on my ability to use PayPal. In other words, their lie about the reason for a refund could do a lot more damage than giving one refund.

Not cool.

So I wrote a response in the Resolution Center explaining that my records showed the file was indeed downloaded, but I also resent the thank you e-mail with the download link. I did that for the benefit of PayPal so they could see that not only had the customer downloaded the file but that I was also resending the download link.

Anyway, I have NEVER denied a refund request, even when I had a strong hunch they were being dishonest. The difference is that this time that dishonesty was sent PayPal's way and that paints me in a bad light, and that's UNacceptable.

They could have said just about anything else, and they would have had their refund instantly.

I will continue to have the same refund policy, but the exception will be that no refund will be given if they lie to somebody else.

What would you do in this situation?

All the best,
Michael
#1st #giving #refund #time
  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    I have the same policy as you Michael, generally if someone asks for a refund I give it. I think only 1 person has asked after thousands of sales.

    BUT, I have also had a few go right to paypal and claim they never got it. Yet, in my records I can see they downloaded it. So in those cases, I attach the download logs to the paypal dispute and sent it off to paypal. I usually win. I don't like to do this, I much prefer that people contact me but if they are going to be sneaky about it, then I fight back.

    Lee
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Michael, I would have done exactly what you described here.

    Once the person lied about receiving what they paid for, it was no longer about a simple refund. It was a slur on your character and your business practices. The fact that it was downloaded three times from widely scattered servers is just icing on the cake.

    In this case, defending yourself is more important than honoring any unwritten policy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I just denied a refund request as well. Here's what happened...

    Just two days after the 60 day refund time limit that Paypal gives buyers for refund time, a user of my software decided to claim that their credit card was fraudulently charged.

    I found this to be pretty coincidental as it was at day 62. Now we've gone through quite a few updates which required us to mass mail all our users so I know this person received various emails and also got welcome emails from us right after purchase.

    I decided to dispute this because I can't figure that some one would ignore an unauthorized charge on their card through two complete billing cycles.

    I sent in screen shots of everything and pointed out the facts, I'm waiting to hear back from Paypal and I do hope I win because the person can get in a LOT of trouble for filing a false fraudulent charge on a credit card.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe Motion
    I'm interested to see how PayPal deal with this.. unless they already have?

    Unfortunately, I've got a feeling your 'customer' will get his refund..
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    • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
      Originally Posted by Joe Motion View Post

      I'm interested to see how PayPal deal with this.. unless they already have?

      Unfortunately, I've got a feeling your 'customer' will get his refund..
      Joe Motion,

      Not necessarily. When I've had proof that the customer was lying about "not receiving the product", Paypal has sided with me 99% of the time.

      @ Michael,

      I have a similar refund policy on most of my websites. I honor 99.9% of them because I have a pretty liberal refund policy. However, when they start bad mouthing my business with completely false statements, that's where I draw the line.

      Look, if you want a refund, just ask for one, I'll give it to you. But if someone starts lying and saying they never got the product or that I've never replied to their e-mails when it's not true, then that's when I'll deny them the refund. Thank goodness that's the minority of refund requests that I receive.

      You did the right thing Michael. I'm sure you'll have some detractors, such as some people thinking it's not worth the time and energy, but this is YOUR business. Your reputation with Paypal, as a vendor, is important and you don't want some serial refunder messing with that.

      RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Given the circumstances you've outlined, I think that
      you've acted reasonably towards what seems like a
      dishonest, serial refunder/file sharer.

      However, you may want to consider making your refund
      policy WRITTEN rather than having an unwritten policy.
      That way, the scope of your refund policy will be clear
      to all - before, during and after the purchase period.

      That way you have something to discuss with PayPal
      and the disputing party if needs be.

      It will also be useful in less cut-and-dry cases where
      the boundary for a refund is not so obvious.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        However, you may want to consider making your refund policy WRITTEN rather than having an unwritten policy. That way, the scope of your refund policy will be clear to all - before, during and after the purchase period.
        Totally agree with Shaun. Thanks to the complete anonymity of the 'net and the large number of not-so-savory characters that are looking for free stuff at every turn, it's a good idea to CYA (cover your... you know ) whenever you can. That way, everyone goes into the purchase knowing what's expected and you have specific terms in writing to fall back on if you need them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
      Originally Posted by Joe Motion View Post

      I'm interested to see how PayPal deal with this.. unless they already have?

      Unfortunately, I've got a feeling your 'customer' will get his refund..
      Not so Joe - you are talking about Paypal here, not ClickBank!

      I have found Paypal to be very fair when it comes to resolving disputes, often resolving in favour of the vendor.

      Take note ClickBank!

      Will
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris The Traffic Blogger
    This is why I love clickbank, all this stuff can be automated. There will always be asses out there looking for free stuff and thieves willing to steal and resell your product.

    One way to get less refund is to create products that take more than 60 days to deliver.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    Michael the way I understand download logs is that they only show you how many times the download was initiated. This doesn't necesarily mean that the download actually completed hence why they tried different proxies to try and download it successfully. After three tries from three different IP addresses the download would not complete.

    I disagree with the way they handled the refund request as I feeling strongly that all refund requests should be done via email first. Buyers should only contact PayPal as a last resort.

    I personally would have just refunded them if they were still within the refund period.
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  • Profile picture of the author backendbuddy
    In general, I agree with Shaun. You 'should' get it written. People have the write to it. It does not look 'decent (oops my my)' when you have a refund mechanism active but people really do not know. It is more like 'taking things away'. Not fair enough. Arrrrrgh!

    But in your case, the case is different - you proved it. So, no worry. Finally, get it written.

    Thanks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryan David
      I sell a physical product so I usually include a relatively strict refund policy of returning the product at their expense. However, I also have a very liberal refund policy as well. But I would agree, I'd put it in writing.

      If they dispute through paypal, I always dispute it. I used to contact them to find out what the deal was, because I always have shipping information. But if they don't have the decency to contact me first and explain the problem, then I follow the procedure they initiated.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I received a refund request one time for a 29-page file that the requesting refunder said, "This was not up to my expectations."

    The refund was requested 46 seconds after the product payment processed!!!

    My gut response was, "Really, and you downloaded the product and made that determination in a mere 46 seconds? Refund denied!!"

    So Mike, should everyone who requests a refund actually get it?

    :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Send a bill for the value of the additional downloads.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Oh yes, serial refunds are a headache for all of us. They are a plague that is growing. Still, I blame pay pal as they do not clamp down on fraud from users.

    That said, I believe in refunding all my sales even from the serial refund types that are out to steal my money. There is a serial refund database that might help you. It has a list of worst offenders that could prevent you from losing even more money.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Oh yes, serial refunds are a headache for all of us. They are a plague that is growing. Still, I blame pay pal as they do not clamp down on fraud from users.

      That said, I believe in refunding all my sales even from the serial refund types that are out to steal my money.
      Let me get this straight...Paypal not cracking down on fraud = bad. YOU personally not cracking down on fraud = good.

      Too too funny. If you're ok with people stealing your money, why should Paypal care?
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        I salute you! I dislike thieves and liars. Good to see someone standing up for what's right.

        Originally Posted by Chris The Traffic Blogger View Post

        This is why I love clickbank, all this stuff can be automated. There will always be asses out there looking for free stuff and thieves willing to steal and resell your product.

        One way to get less refund is to create products that take more than 60 days to deliver.
        What do you mean about this stuff automated at Clickbank? Clickbank is even easier to get a refund from than Paypal.
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    I would of done the same as you.

    People buy with the intentions of getting refunds these days... Bloody annoying!

    James Scholes
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    • Profile picture of the author LilBlackDress
      Since the download is probably considered intangible and the consumer said they did not get it...Paypal will likely rule on your side as they do not stand behind non tangible goods.

      However, if the person said it was an unauthorized transaction, even if it is a non tangible good, Paypal would likely rule on the consumer's side. At least that is what I found out recently, when someone paid for one of my ebooks, got the download and then cried foul - unauthorized transaction minutes later.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Urrgh...this urks me big time.

    Clickbank should deny refund requests that take place within minutes of purchase.

    Its BS.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aussie_Al
    Matt Fury who has a well respected and successful IMer has a strict "No refund" policy - I can see why
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

      BUT, I have also had a few go right to paypal and claim they never got it. Yet, in my records I can see they downloaded it. So in those cases, I attach the download logs to the paypal dispute and sent it off to paypal. I usually win. I don't like to do this, I much prefer that people contact me but if they are going to be sneaky about it, then I fight back.
      That's exactly it; they were being sneaky and sullying my reputation. In my opinion, they lied their way out of a refund.


      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Once the person lied about receiving what they paid for, it was no longer about a simple refund. It was a slur on your character and your business practices. The fact that it was downloaded three times from widely scattered servers is just icing on the cake.

      In this case, defending yourself is more important than honoring any unwritten policy.
      Well said, John. It really would have been a "simple refund" had they gone about it another way.

      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      I just denied a refund request as well. Here's what happened...

      Just two days after the 60 day refund time limit that Paypal gives buyers for refund time, a user of my software decided to claim that their credit card was fraudulently charged.

      I found this to be pretty coincidental as it was at day 62. Now we've gone through quite a few updates which required us to mass mail all our users so I know this person received various emails and also got welcome emails from us right after purchase.

      I decided to dispute this because I can't figure that some one would ignore an unauthorized charge on their card through two complete billing cycles.

      I sent in screen shots of everything and pointed out the facts, I'm waiting to hear back from Paypal and I do hope I win because the person can get in a LOT of trouble for filing a false fraudulent charge on a credit card.
      I value all of my customers, but I agree that those committing fraud need to be cracked down on harder. I hope things work out in your favor.

      Originally Posted by Joe Motion View Post

      I'm interested to see how PayPal deal with this.. unless they already have?

      Unfortunately, I've got a feeling your 'customer' will get his refund..
      I have no doubt that I will win this one. I have proof that they did download it, and I can also fall back on the fact that it's a digital product. Also, they can't now say it was an unauthorized charge because they have already said something else. That being said, I will keep everybody posted if there are any new developments.

      All the best,
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Suthan M

        I have no doubt that I will win this one. I have proof that they did download it, and I can also fall back on the fact that it's a digital product. Also, they can't now say it was an unauthorized charge because they have already said something else. That being said, I will keep everybody posted if there are any new developments.
        Please do. Looking forward to hear about the development. Hope it goes well for you
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  • Profile picture of the author Dee Odus
    I would definitely have done what you did, I am very lenient with money/refund except in a situation where I feel being cheated/lied to and the person is taking me for a fool, in such case I will push the situation to where I'll get the maximum satisfaction. Selling on eBay where people can open dispute at the click of a button with paypal, when I think the situation is fair, I immediately accept the refund request even though if I could have disputed, but in cases where I am right and the buyer was just lying and being dishonest, no way!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenster
    I love when people ask for a refund because it didn't live up to their expectations or wasn't good enough...then I check the backend and see that they purchased 2 minutes earlier and haven't even downloaded it yet!

    I love it...normally still give them a refund because the $17 or whatever isn't worth the aggravation, and in truth, its those people that normally don't get ahead in this industry so whatever!
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      Joe Motion,

      Not necessarily. When I've had proof that the customer was lying about "not receiving the product", Paypal has sided with me 99% of the time.

      @ Michael,

      I have a similar refund policy on most of my websites. I honor 99.9% of them because I have a pretty liberal refund policy. However, when they start bad mouthing my business with completely false statements, that's where I draw the line.

      Look, if you want a refund, just ask for one, I'll give it to you. But if someone starts lying and saying they never got the product or that I've never replied to their e-mails when it's not true, then that's when I'll deny them the refund. Thank goodness that's the minority of refund requests that I receive.

      You did the right thing Michael. I'm sure you'll have some detractors, such as some people thinking it's not worth the time and energy, but this is YOUR business. Your reputation with Paypal, as a vendor, is important and you don't want some serial refunder messing with that.

      RoD
      Thanks, Rod. It sounds like we are on the same page here, and I really appreciate the support. (Not to mention, seeing your post reminds me that I could go for another cup of coffee.)

      Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

      Given the circumstances you've outlined, I think that
      you've acted reasonably towards what seems like a
      dishonest, serial refunder/file sharer.

      However, you may want to consider making your refund
      policy WRITTEN rather than having an unwritten policy.
      That way, the scope of your refund policy will be clear
      to all - before, during and after the purchase period.

      That way you have something to discuss with PayPal
      and the disputing party if needs be.

      It will also be useful in less cut-and-dry cases where
      the boundary for a refund is not so obvious.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
      Hi Shaun,

      I see your point, but I still waver on publishing my refund policy. I mean, how would I word it without alienating my potential customers? If I said, "If you want a refund, then just ask, but don't accuse me of being dishonest," that would presuppose that they are dishonest.

      If I could come up with the right wording, I would consider it. I don't to publish it as a 100% no-strings policy. That's what I used to have, but now that someone has falsely accused me, I need a refund policy that protects me in those instances.

      Originally Posted by Chris The Traffic Blogger View Post

      This is why I love clickbank, all this stuff can be automated. There will always be asses out there looking for free stuff and thieves willing to steal and resell your product.

      One way to get less refund is to create products that take more than 60 days to deliver.
      Maybe, but this particular product was a package that is based on a particular holiday, and stringing that along for 60 days wouldn't make any sense in this case. I see what you're getting at though.

      Originally Posted by Mike Baker View Post

      Michael the way I understand download logs is that they only show you how many times the download was initiated. This doesn't necesarily mean that the download actually completed hence why they tried different proxies to try and download it successfully. After three tries from three different IP addresses the download would not complete.

      I disagree with the way they handled the refund request as I feeling strongly that all refund requests should be done via email first. Buyers should only contact PayPal as a last resort.

      I personally would have just refunded them if they were still within the refund period.
      The first communication from the buyer took place on September 23rd. I responded within 35 minutes and mentioned what my records showed, and told them I was resending the download link. I have not heard from the since...BUT those 3 different download locations happened AFTER my response AND on different days. Therefore, it would seem that if they were still having problems, they eould have responded right away.

      All the best,
      Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Michael, I would have done exactly as you did.

      Sadly, they can still get their refund by putting in a chargeback through their
      bank if they want. Nothing can stop that.

      In my 8 plus years of doing this, I've seen it all and nothing surprises me
      anymore.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Chris The Traffic Blogger View Post

        One way to get less refund is to create products that take more than 60 days to deliver.
        If I were seeking a refund under these circumstances, I would simply argue that the actual delivery was not complete until all content was received, and that the 60 day guarantee began with the final delivery.

        And I would get my refund...
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by backendbuddy View Post

          In general, I agree with Shaun. You 'should' get it written. People have the write to it. It does not look 'decent (oops my my)' when you have a refund mechanism active but people really do not know. It is more like 'taking things away'. Not fair enough. Arrrrrgh!

          But in your case, the case is different - you proved it. So, no worry. Finally, get it written.

          Thanks.
          I guess I don't see it as "taking things away" if people never know something is there. My thinking is that they:

          1. Probably need to have a legitimate reason for asking for a refund if they're not sure one is available. BUT...that could also give them a reason to go to PayPal first. Hmm...something to think about.

          2. They are pleasantly surprised when they do get a no-questions-asked refund.

          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I received a refund request one time for a 29-page file that the requesting refunder said, "This was not up to my expectations."

          The refund was requested 46 seconds after the product payment processed!!!

          My gut response was, "Really, and you downloaded the product and made that determination in a mere 46 seconds? Refund denied!!"
          If memory serves, a friend of mine, and fellow Warrior, had somebody request a refund while the file was still downloading. She gave the refund, and cancelled the download...THEN the person wanted to know why they couldn't download it.

          Originally Posted by NicoleBeckett View Post

          Totally agree with Shaun. Thanks to the complete anonymity of the 'net and the large number of not-so-savory characters that are looking for free stuff at every turn, it's a good idea to CYA (cover your... you know ) whenever you can. That way, everyone goes into the purchase knowing what's expected and you have specific terms in writing to fall back on if you need them.
          I guess I see NOT publishing my refund policy as a way of C'ing my A.

          Originally Posted by Ryan David View Post

          I sell a physical product so I usually include a relatively strict refund policy of returning the product at their expense. However, I also have a very liberal refund policy as well. But I would agree, I'd put it in writing.

          If they dispute through paypal, I always dispute it. I used to contact them to find out what the deal was, because I always have shipping information. But if they don't have the decency to contact me first and explain the problem, then I follow the procedure they initiated.
          I am definitely rethinking the decision to not publish my refund policy. If I did publish it, it would definitely have to be worded just right.

          Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

          Send a bill for the value of the additional downloads.
          You have no idea how much I love that suggestion!

          All the best,
          Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Michael, I would have done exactly as you did.

        Sadly, they can still get their refund by putting in a chargeback through their
        bank if they want. Nothing can stop that.

        In my 8 plus years of doing this, I've seen it all and nothing surprises me
        anymore.
        You can dispute a chargeback, and win. But, you must have a way to prove that it was an unauthorized transaction. If it is done through PayPal, they will help you with that because it affects their security systems.

        By working totally within PayPal, I have never lost an unauthorized chargeback.

        Well, I did lose one, temporarily. I appealed, and provided PayPal with the documentation I had stupidly omitted in the first response and PayPal went to bat for me with the credit card company (Amex). Took a bit longer, but PayPal is serious about fighting "unauthorized" transactions.
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    Good work Michael. I hate when people open disputes with PayPal when they just are lying to get their money back.

    It will piss you off even more when you openly say that you will refund their purchase no questions asked, but they continue to open the PayPal dispute with a lie to try and win.

    I had a large problem with people doing this through a certain affiliate program a few months ago. I went as far as putting my refund policy on my sales page, the download page, and the first email in the follow up series just so they would know.

    There were still people opening disputes with false claims.

    I take screenshots and record all data now. It's been a while since I've lost a paypal dispute. It's all because I have proof they are lying every time.

    Not 1 legitimate claim has been made through 3 years of paypal disputes yet.

    Same goes with you I'm sure, but if they would just send an email and say they want their money back, I wouldn't even question them. When they skip me and lie to PayPal, I enjoy to fight back. They started it... :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Oh yes, serial refunds are a headache for all of us. They are a plague that is growing. Still, I blame pay pal as they do not clamp down on fraud from users.

      That said, I believe in refunding all my sales even from the serial refund types that are out to steal my money. There is a serial refund database that might help you. It has a list of worst offenders that could prevent you from losing even more money.
      I don't blame PayPal at all, as they aren't making the serial refunders request the refunds. Serial refunders don't care that it's PayPal and would just do the same thing to another payment processor.

      I also refund to people I believe are serial refunders, BUT this is the first time I have denied a refund on one of my offerings. The difference is that they lied to someone else about it.

      Originally Posted by xxxJamesxxx View Post

      I would of done the same as you.

      People buy with the intentions of getting refunds these days... Bloody annoying!

      James Scholes
      To be honest, refund requests rarely bother me. sometimes they can be entertaining, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. My thinking is that the quicker I refund, the less hassle there will be. In this case, however, I believe that an instant refund could actually cause MORE potential hassle as PayPal could be led to incorrectly believe that I don't deliver.

      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Urrgh...this urks me big time.

      Clickbank should deny refund requests that take place within minutes of purchase.

      Its BS.
      Some sort of timer would be an interesting idea.

      Originally Posted by LilBlackDress View Post

      Since the download is probably considered intangible and the consumer said they did not get it...Paypal will likely rule on your side as they do not stand behind non tangible goods.

      However, if the person said it was an unauthorized transaction, even if it is a non tangible good, Paypal would likely rule on the consumer's side. At least that is what I found out recently, when someone paid for one of my ebooks, got the download and then cried foul - unauthorized transaction minutes later.
      Yes, I'm pretty sure I will win this one. And the fact that they already said they didn't receive it seems to negate the possibility of them suddenly saying it was unauthorized. After all, if it was unauthorized, why wouldn't they say that first?

      Originally Posted by Aussie_Al View Post

      Matt Fury who has a well respected and successful IMer has a strict "No refund" policy - I can see why
      That may work for Matt, but I will still continue to offer refunds. I understand that there are legitimate reasons for wanting a refund, and I'm not going to "punish" honest buyers because of a few bad apples.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author warrior2008
    INDEED! Brilliantly handled!

    Cheers,

    Warrior2008
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    my policy is if you ask for a refund through proper channels IE the support desk you are 99% sure of getting one

    If you put in a paypal dispute you can kiss my ring
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Dee Odus View Post

      I would definitely have done what you did, I am very lenient with money/refund except in a situation where I feel being cheated/lied to and the person is taking me for a fool, in such case I will push the situation to where I'll get the maximum satisfaction. Selling on eBay where people can open dispute at the click of a button with paypal, when I think the situation is fair, I immediately accept the refund request even though if I could have disputed, but in cases where I am right and the buyer was just lying and being dishonest, no way!
      I know some refunders are lying about why they want a refund, but there's no way to know for sure. I think sometimes they come up with a different reason in order to save face, but I don't require an explanation for a buyer to get a refund.

      Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

      Please do. Looking forward to hear about the development. Hope it goes well for you
      No follow up as of right now, but I have a hunch it will go my way.

      Originally Posted by estreet View Post

      Coming from a food service industry background I've always been taught that less than 1% of people asking for a refund are trying to scam you. So the logical thing to do is treat every complaint as genuine.

      I never had a problem giving a refund to people who came to menwith there problems either, of course you always try to replace the order first. It was the customers that called the corporate offices straight away that drove me crazy. Now not only do I have to give their money back (which I would have done anyway), but I also have to replace the order, AND face disciplinary action from what always came down to an honest mistake.

      I agree that posting a written refund policy may encourage some less honest folks to get their money back while still being able to keep your product. But I do believe it is a very small percentage. I like what I see on eBay, vendors will state that if they have a problem please take it up with them so they can resolve it without a claim being made. I don't think this is an unfair request.
      I firmly believe that most people are honest, and it doesn't really matter why they are asking for a refund, AS LONG AS they ask and don't go around making false accusations.

      There is a possibility, no matter how remote, that Mike Baker is right, but I haven't seen anything from the buyer to indicate that.

      Originally Posted by Kenster View Post

      I love when people ask for a refund because it didn't live up to their expectations or wasn't good enough...then I check the backend and see that they purchased 2 minutes earlier and haven't even downloaded it yet!

      I love it...normally still give them a refund because the $17 or whatever isn't worth the aggravation, and in truth, its those people that normally don't get ahead in this industry so whatever!
      Yep. I feel that way, too. It's usually so much easier to just give the refund, but this was an odd case where it was better to not give it.

      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      Michael, I would have done exactly as you did.

      Sadly, they can still get their refund by putting in a chargeback through their
      bank if they want. Nothing can stop that.

      In my 8 plus years of doing this, I've seen it all and nothing surprises me
      anymore.
      I wouldn't say I was surprised, and I wasn't even mad, but I also wasn't going to roll over and take the besmirchment.

      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      If I were seeking a refund under these circumstances, I would simply argue that the actual delivery was not complete until all content was received, and that the 60 day guarantee began with the final delivery.

      And I would get my refund...
      That's an excellent point! You don't really have the product until you have the entire product. However, maybe they were talking about something like a membership site, but then you could still request a refund for any payments made within the prior 60 days.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    That's happened to me as well, they actually issued a charge back on their credit card for a $14.95 e-book.

    PayPal sided with me and he did not get his refund so PayPal does have some muscle to fight back against fraudulent type of charge backs and they don't just roll-over like ClickBank.

    The funny part is that if they had emailed me for a refund I would have given it to them since it was within the PayPal 60 days but they had to go the charge back route and not only pissed me off but also PayPal since charge backs affect everyone involved in the transaction.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rankomatic
    Same here Michael, man, there are some real shockers out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronaldmd
    That's what I hate. I always feel it's better not to sell anything rather than giving refund. That's why I don't lie and mislead people because I don't want to refund people. BTW refunders now are smarter. They don't use "never received item" anymore.
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    • Profile picture of the author Magim
      I've been fortunate enough to not have this happen a terribly significant number of times. Your best bet to avoid this sort of thing from happening is to make your refund policy very clear to people, let them know where they can contact to receive their refund and under what set of circumstances. Personally I'd rather have refunds on my PayPal record than disputes..

      Of course, there will always be the people who are too dense to actually go through the proper channels to ask for their refund and will just lie, like in the OP's case-- in which case, yeah, fight it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

        Let me get this straight...Paypal not cracking down on fraud = bad. YOU personally not cracking down on fraud = good.

        Too too funny. If you're ok with people stealing your money, why should Paypal care?
        Very good point, BHC. I actually glossed right over it when I read the post the first time.

        Originally Posted by petelta View Post

        Good work Michael. I hate when people open disputes with PayPal when they just are lying to get their money back.

        It will piss you off even more when you openly say that you will refund their purchase no questions asked, but they continue to open the PayPal dispute with a lie to try and win.

        I had a large problem with people doing this through a certain affiliate program a few months ago. I went as far as putting my refund policy on my sales page, the download page, and the first email in the follow up series just so they would know.

        There were still people opening disputes with false claims.

        I take screenshots and record all data now. It's been a while since I've lost a paypal dispute. It's all because I have proof they are lying every time.

        Not 1 legitimate claim has been made through 3 years of paypal disputes yet.

        Same goes with you I'm sure, but if they would just send an email and say they want their money back, I wouldn't even question them. When they skip me and lie to PayPal, I enjoy to fight back. They started it... :-)
        Now your post makes me think my current unwritten policy is better. Either way, there is some thinking to be done. As much as I dislike saying "they started it", that's really what it comes down to.

        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        I salute you! I dislike thieves and liars. Good to see someone standing up for what's right.

        What do you mean about this stuff automated at Clickbank? Clickbank is even easier to get a refund from than Paypal.
        Thanks Dennis. There are clearly times when we do have to stand our ground. I've been doing this for over 10 years, and I believe it's the only time I have ever fought a refund request. Well, it's not technically a refund request, but you know what I mean.

        Originally Posted by Kirk Ward View Post

        You can dispute a chargeback, and win. But, you must have a way to prove that it was an unauthorized transaction. If it is done through PayPal, they will help you with that because it affects their security systems.

        By working totally within PayPal, I have never lost an unauthorized chargeback.

        Well, I did lose one, temporarily. I appealed, and provided PayPal with the documentation I had stupidly omitted in the first response and PayPal went to bat for me with the credit card company (Amex). Took a bit longer, but PayPal is serious about fighting "unauthorized" transactions.
        That's excellent to hear, Kirk. I don't know what will happen next, but there should be enough documentation to support my side of the case.

        Originally Posted by warrior2008 View Post

        INDEED! Brilliantly handled!
        Not sure if I would go so far as to say brilliant...but I'm not stopping you from saying it.

        Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

        my policy is if you ask for a refund through proper channels IE the support desk you are 99% sure of getting one

        If you put in a paypal dispute you can kiss my ring
        That seems like a sound policy. I for one do not want to know where that ring has been. LOL

        All the best,
        Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author dtstrading
    I don't even deal with Paypal any more. Got burnt too many times and there are better options out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author RatRaceWatch
    Well I think most of us can agree, the problem is with the actual payment system itself. I think you have to use great care with your judgement of these situations especially when you think the customer is wrong.

    I would always be extremely cautious how you handle the relation with the customer even if you feel you are getting duped. Bad press in any manner is no good, and one disgruntled customer can cause a lot of damage.

    I think it's a small price to pay to have the convenience of selling things digitally and having processes automated though :0
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  • Profile picture of the author wordydiva
    It sounds as if the buyer is trying to pull a fast one, and I think standing your ground was a good choice. I actually requested what I believe is my third ever (in maybe five years) intangible product refund through PayPal earlier today. I only requested a refund because the seller did not send me the information I purchased and I'd already tried reaching them through email. After I requested a refund I did hear from them.

    Why am I sharing that little story?

    In my situation I waited seven days to receive the product in question. I couldn't imagine waiting 62 days before speaking out. It seems like the buyer made the purchase planning to refund, and just forget to file their claim within the 60 day period.

    I think there is nothing wrong with professionally stating your case as you have already done, but having a written policy to cite may help you in the future. Either a specific refund period, or a strict no refund policy would make dealing with PayPal disputes a bit easier.
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  • Profile picture of the author JMSD
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    So...

    I have always had a very liberal, and UNWRITTEN, refund policy.

    I don't print it, but my rule has always been "if you ask for a refund, you get it with no questions asked". That cuts down on the serial refunders and keeps people happy. My refund rate is well below 1%.


    Michael
    I hope you were able to resolve your problem to your satisfaction.

    I would, however, state my terms (returns, where applicable and refund policy) clearly in my sales copy in order to comply with distance selling regulations. This gives vendors additional protection.

    Under the terms of "Distance Selling Regulations", online customerd have the right to change their mind and request a refund within seven days.

    If there is no clearly stated refund policy, then when there is a dispute the customer may be "granted" a much longer period to exercise that right - sometimes by several months.

    So it's in every vendor's interest to comply with current regulations so that in the case of a dispute, we don't weaken our case.

    I wish PayPal had a primary and a secondary mode of operation in cases where a product has not been delivered or the download link has not been sent (these things do happen).

    At present, You can't send a polite email via PayPal, requesting a resend of the link or a refund (the paypal email always works, whereas the other vendor email may go into cyberspace). Instead, it's referred to as a "Dispute" which is unfortunate and immediately causes a problem for both the vendor and customer.

    In the few instances when I have requested a refund - usually within a day of purchase (product not up to scratch, link not delivered or working), I have always contacted the vendor direct and only when I have failed to hear from them (48 hours or more) have I contacted them via PayPal. The refunds have resulted without delay and in one instance, the vendor also added an apology and offered me the link to the product without charge "for the inconvenience caused".

    I was so impressed with that gesture that I sent him the money for the product via PayPal "Send Money" process.

    Goodwill is priceless so I take the view that it's better to give one's customers the benefit of the doubt, even when evidence suggests that they may not deserve it. In the long run, you are generating goodwill and customer loyalty which pays dividends.

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author steven sanderson
    I would do the same as you, there is no reason for dishonesty, its very important we all stick to our refund policy but in a situation like that when you have full proof the product has been downloaded not once but three times then that is appalling,
    You did right Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author lamatic
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Will Edwards View Post

      Not so Joe - you are talking about Paypal here, not ClickBank!

      I have found Paypal to be very fair when it comes to resolving disputes, often resolving in favour of the vendor.

      Take note ClickBank!

      Will
      Yep, I'm with you Will. There may be cases where PayPal isn't fair, but this is one of those situations where they are more likely to side with the seller. However, I do find it unfortunate that there policy on digital products seems so strict. A lot of people get taken by scammers because of it; of course that's a whole different topic that doesn't really fit in here. (Apologies for the slight tangent)

      Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

      That's happened to me as well, they actually issued a charge back on their credit card for a $14.95 e-book.

      PayPal sided with me and he did not get his refund so PayPal does have some muscle to fight back against fraudulent type of charge backs and they don't just roll-over like ClickBank.

      The funny part is that if they had emailed me for a refund I would have given it to them since it was within the PayPal 60 days but they had to go the charge back route and not only pissed me off but also PayPal since charge backs affect everyone involved in the transaction.
      Right on, Alan! That's the exact thing that I'm talking about.

      You know, it comes down to respect. I respect you as a buyer and will give you a refund if you ask, BUT if you have no respect for me as a seller, then we have a problem.

      Originally Posted by Rankomatic View Post

      Same here Michael, man, there are some real shockers out there.
      Just wanted to mention that I wasn't shocked at all. I am being completely calm about the whole thing and it didn't surprise me in the least. But you're right, and I have seen a few "shockers" of my own.

      Originally Posted by ronaldmd View Post

      That's what I hate. I always feel it's better not to sell anything rather than giving refund. That's why I don't lie and mislead people because I don't want to refund people. BTW refunders now are smarter. They don't use "never received item" anymore.
      I would definitely prefer to make sales at the expense of a refund or two then to not sell at all. Who wouldn't? I don't lie or mislead people because it's who I am, not out of a fear of refunds, but it's always good to hear about people who are honest (that's the vast majority of buyers and sellers, in my opinion). Maybe this is an old-fashioned refunder because they did use the "never received item" excuse.

      Originally Posted by Magim View Post

      I've been fortunate enough to not have this happen a terribly significant number of times. Your best bet to avoid this sort of thing from happening is to make your refund policy very clear to people, let them know where they can contact to receive their refund and under what set of circumstances. Personally I'd rather have refunds on my PayPal record than disputes..

      Of course, there will always be the people who are too dense to actually go through the proper channels to ask for their refund and will just lie, like in the OP's case-- in which case, yeah, fight it.
      That's one of the issues here. I would consider putting my no-questions-asked refund policy in print, but I would make an exception for those who lie to PayPal. My guess is that PayPal wouldn't be thrilled with such a policy, and I also don't want it to seem like a veiled insult to potential customers. If you follow.

      All the best,
      Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    HOORAY!!!

    I just got the final word on this dispute.

    Case Closed.

    I won.

    Like I mentioned before, all the person had to do was ask for a refund and they would have received it right away. But I'm just as happy to keep their money, after all, they're going to keep my product. Fair?

    YES! You really CAN win PayPal disputes.

    All the best,
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author Devon Brown
    Good for you for defending your business and glad you won! I've done the exact same thing. I have my assistant check the logs to see if it was downloaded and I dispute the dispute. I don't like dishonesty either.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Sweet update. It does make you feel good to win those bad boys! PayPal gets a lot of flack but they do protect merchants from this type of abuse.

      The issue with the charge-back goes beyond losing the money from that sale but charge-backs are red flags on your account so it can cost you a lot more than just the price of the product. So good to hear you had that one wiped off your slate.
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