Either all major list companies have a massive security leak or everyone DOES sell emails...

49 replies
For years I've been use a catch all account on my domains. I do this so I can track my emails and where they are ending up.

When using a "catch-all" account you can set it to send all unrouted emails to a certain address or you can discard them into a black hole. Catch all accounts are handy because you can just come up with email addresses as you go along and they will all route to your catch all account.

I use mailbox @ my domain .com that way I can just create emails such as "support @, admin @, webmaster @, sales @, ...etc as I need and they will all route to mailbox @ which is the only account I do a send and receive from but there's another good use for a catch all account.

When I arrive at your website I will use yourdomain @ mydomain .com so that way when you send me an email I will know where it comes from. Here's the problem...

Within a few hours (sometimes), a few days (often) or eventually (most of the time) these emails will end up on spam lists. I flew to San Diego once for a seminar from someone that everyone knows. Probably the most famous name in IM at the moment. It was a pitch fest (sad) but I ended up buying a few products and left my email several times. By the time I got back to Australia I was receiving spam on all accounts. ALL ACCOUNTS!

And these are some massive industry names and no, they are not sharing the emails with their buddies I'm talking proper porn, virus laden, irrelevant, totally uncalled for, disgusting and dangerous spam in every sense of the word.

Now, some of it comes from people guessing emails (e.g. spammers will often send an email to every human name or possible corporate officer at mydomain .com) and I expect a lot of that and have rules to deal with it so that all mails with common spam words or obvious rude words go straight in the bin) but I am gob-smacked when it happens with a "supposedly honourable" person. My only guess is that there is a massive leak somewhere in the major email delivery services.

So what's going on here? Does aweber (most of them use aweber) have a massive security leak (it's been happening for years) or when people say "we will not ever share or sell your email" they are lying straight to our faces? So if you've ever wondered where most of the spam is coming from, now you know. Somehow our emails are getting passed around at alarming speed. I've been testing this for years and it recently happened again so I thought I'd post about it to see if this sounds right or if maybe there is another explanation.

Originally Posted by BloggingPro View Post

...So, ahem, yeah when I see those disclaimers I immediately think BULL****. Honestly when signing up for opt-in forms I use a throwaway email address. The only people who have my "real" addy are the people I make monthly payments to.

Not even my family has my real email address, because they like to forward constant crap at all hours of the day.

Does Aweber have some serious security leak? I can't comment on that, but something tells me if they did they wouldn't be the biggest auto-responder provider on the internet. I'm not saying their squeaky clean--but when your an industry leader dirt seems to attract at a higher level than if your some joe blow.
I agree about the disclaimer. I chuckle when I see it. Sometimes I even suggest that people leave it off their pages all together.

I agree about the Aweber puzzle and maybe I'm picking on them unfairly but something's going on. I don't really believe that people are selling them and I can't believe that aweber has a security leak that has remained unplugged for years. Maybe it's virus on people's machines? That's a possibility, but all of us? It just happens way to often and has been happening for years. I just thought I'd mention it.
#aweber #emails #leak #massive #security #sell
  • Profile picture of the author timpears
    I have often wondered where all these damn spammers get my email address. I am on more lists than I can count, and I keep unsubscribing from them every week. Yet the flow of commercial email is never ending. I just never read it any more, so if anyone wants to send me an email, the subject line has to stand out or it will get ignored. Sad but true.
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    I worked for a Company in southern California one time. They collected emails as leads (in addition to telephone numbers). They had a disclaimer posted on the opt-in page that they wouldn't sell your email address.

    This same company in the job training stated that if the "lead" didn't develop on a certain schedule it was "sold" off to a sister company.

    So, ahem, yeah when I see those disclaimers I immediately think BULL****. Honestly when signing up for opt-in forms I use a throwaway email address. The only people who have my "real" addy are the people I make monthly payments to.

    Not even my family has my real email address, because they like to forward constant crap at all hours of the day.

    Does these companies have some serious security leak? I can't comment on that, but something tells me if they did they wouldn't be the biggest auto-responder provider on the internet. I'm not saying their squeaky clean--but when your an industry leader dirt seems to attract at a higher level than if your some joe blow.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
    Spammers know that most people use admin@ domain.com, support@ domain.com, webmaster@ domain.com, sales@ domain.com, info@ domain.com, customerservice@ domain.com, et al.

    I remember reading about that (sorry can't recall the source) and I stopped using stuff like info@ domain.com to something not as widespread used and now I don't get much spam to those addresses to my own domain mailbox.

    To really catch someone in email malfeasance use a dedicated Gmail address when you sign up then use the Gmail "alias" feature using that marketers name.

    For example, yourusername+johndoeguru@gmail..com. All those emails will be sent to that Gmail email address.

    Quoting Google...

    you can receive messages sent to your.username+any.alias@gmail.com. For example, messages sent to jane.doe+notes@gmail.com are delivered to jane.doe@gmail.com.
    If you start receiving spam from the PPP's (porn, pills, and poker) to yourusername+johndoeguru@gmail.com then you know the source.

    If you want to use your own mailbox then setup a specific address to then forward to your main mailbox. Example: johndoeguru@ yourdomain.com.

    Your example in the OP isn't enough to convince me that they're selling your email address or that there is a security leak. Just spammers using their tricks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    I've learned to look very closely at the "unsubscribe" link over the years. Most of the time (I'm guessing) those links are a "glee" link for spammers and nothing more than a confirmation that you are a live address. For those who don't know, you are better off not unsubscribing unless you are very sure the person is legitimate.

    Lately there's been a tsunami of activity which prompted this post and the reason I'm picking on all major list companies is that I've taken a hobby like interest in trying to figure out how quickly it happens and it seems like they are either vulnerable or most likely it's because many people use them but it happens with a few of the other big names as well. If I wasn't using a catch-all account I'd just be frustrated but when I go to "your" website and create a unique one-off email account and it starts to get wild spam I have to wonder what's going on.

    Just FYI, it seems that HostGator have disabled the catch all function from cPanel. Obviously to reduce the data flow of all that spam mail but it also means you have to create and check multiple email accounts or set up a forward for each new email address you create. With a catch all you can just make them up as you go along. Been doing it that way for years.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bill,
    My only guess is that there is a massive leak somewhere in the major email delivery services.

    So what's going on here? Does aweber (most of them use aweber)
    So, it happens with others, you're not sure if there's some other answer, and you felt the need to focus the title of the thread on one company?

    Oh... for the record, using addresses that are carelessly tagged, such as using someone's domain in the tag, is just asking to be used as a tool in a joe job.


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    • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Bill,So, it happens with others, you're not sure if there's some other answer, and you felt the need to focus the title of the thread on one company?

      Oh... for the record, using addresses that are carelessly tagged, such as using someone's domain in the tag, is just asking to be used as a tool in a joe job.


      Paul
      Fair enough, I've edited the title and all reference to that company in my posts and replaced it

      As for being a tool in a joe job I suppose that's possible. But it all started innocently enough years ago when I discovered the catch all account feature and thought it was a cool idea so I started using my own emails such as webmaster@ (then that would start receiving lost of spam) or even sales@ so I started experimenting with variations, adminbill@ and picking them all up with mailbox@ but it started to happen so regularly and with all emails that I started testing it by identifying the domains as they asked for them and sure enough they all soon ended up in the spammers hands.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Says
    This is why I think things like Scrapebox are a load of crap. They scrape emails and destroy the industry. If everyone would say "%#@$" automation and start doing things manually we'd all be in a better world.
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  • Profile picture of the author Coby
    Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

    Either all major list companies have a massive security leak or everyone DOES sell emails...
    Both...

    Aweber has been hacked at least two times that I know of...

    Plus - lots of marketers have privacy policies allowing them to legally share your info... Others simply don't care...

    Sad I know...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that spammers are incredibly persistent and have had a long time to hone their trade. But I'm sure there are also some deals on the back end with some of these list companies.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

    I agree about the Aweber puzzle and maybe I'm picking on them unfairly but something's going on. I don't really believe that people are selling them and I can't believe that aweber has a security leak that has remained unplugged for years. Maybe it's virus on people's machines? That's a possibility, but all of us? It just happens way to often and has been happening for years. I just thought I'd mention it.
    Your issue could be caused from so many different places that it's a bit rough to go blaming the managed mailing list companies.

    It could be spyware on your computer for starters and that's a more likely scenario. There could be vulnerabilities on your host or on the opt-in form's host too. Those possibilities don't quite have the drama though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert X
    Funny thing is too, that every time I buy a wso here, I tend to get more and more emails from people I have no idea of. And I have some accounts that I only use for buying wso's and then I get emails from unknowns promoting wso's. Weird......
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Aweber has been hacked at least two times that I know of...
      Yep. Most of the big ones have been compromised in the past couple of years.
      It could be spyware on your computer for starters and that's a more likely scenario. There could be vulnerabilities on your host or on the opt-in form's host too. Those possibilities don't quite have the drama though.
      And, if he created and submitted the addresses offline, through a sign-up sheet or business card drop, there are other possibilities. Like someone adding those addresses while at a place with insecure wifi, physical compromise of the source sheets, direct and deliberate sale of the lists, compromised machines used to upload the addresses, and probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment.

      If he signed up through a hotel wifi system, there's no point in even guessing. Those things are not secure at all, and there will always be someone sniffing for data at a conference.

      If you want to test that a bit more securely, subscribe through a cellular connection, rather than wifi. Not impossible to sniff, but much less likely. Not really worth the effort, either, with such a large amount of data so easily gathered via wifi.


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      • Profile picture of the author davidjhp
        The way Ive handled this is I set up a email forward to my main email. Say I sign up at craigslist, I would use use craigslist at domain dot com, and forward that to my main email address. If I start getting junk from that forward, then I know thats where the leak occured and drop that forward. Works perfectly.
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        • Profile picture of the author davidjhp
          Or if it is taking too long to set up forwards, then there are many disposable email address services, it wastes a few second of time, but you will always know where the leak came from.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    setting up a forward for every email name you come up with is a drag and so is using a disposable account (which would need checking). With a catch all all you have to do is automatically use any email address you can think of @mydomain.com and the job is done.

    Paul, this has been happening for over 8 years, I don't use wireless except when I'm travelling, it happens even if I enter an email address into a form and I have changed servers a few times as well. I always scan for virus (as a PC tech it's part of my routine) on all my machines. I use desktop, laptop and iphone (mostly desktop). So far all my variables have been accounted for and dismissed. It's definitely happening on their end and from the prevalence of it I'd guess it's server side.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      When you setup an email account, Dream Host even has a warning about spam and using the "catch all" function. That's spammer heaven.

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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Originally Posted by WSOHelp View Post

      setting up a forward for every email name you come up with is a drag and so is using a disposable account (which would need checking). With a catch all all you have to do is automatically use any email address you can think of @mydomain.com and the job is done.
      I don't recommend using the catch-all route because
      you're guaranteeed to get MORE spam that way.

      Here's the process I use to keep my main inbox pretty
      clean...

      I've got a very old GMail account that I use for most
      e-mail subscriptions. I tag every subscription with a unique
      identifier (usually their domain name).

      E.g. gmailaddress + subscriptiondomain @ gmail . com

      If the person respects that e-mail address and they send
      me useful content and offers, then I'll 'graduate' them to
      my main inbox - BUT I'll create a unique e-mail forwarder
      just for them...

      E.g. nameofemailsender @ mydomain . com

      I send this forwarding e-mail through my main GMail account
      which is a pretty good spam filter too.

      If they sell on my details (or their e-mail service gets hacked)
      then I can trace it back to the source. And if that specific
      e-mail address gets in the hands of spammers - I simply just
      delete that forwarding address. Problem solved.

      Not ALL list companies have a massive security leak and
      neither does EVERYONE sell e-mails.

      If they do, I track 'em and catch 'em red-handed.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Yes, of course. And of course I'm not talking about all that as stated above. I expect all that spam.

    What I don't expect is that when I give an email to a website (such as many of the marketing squeeze pages we are all dealing with every day - maybe yours) that my email be immediately sold or leaked to spammers and that I then start getting emails to that address (which is 100% unique) from people trying to send me DHL virus, or member enlargement pill or a nice rolax watch. This happens sometimes as quickly as a few days. That's not general spam, that's a security leak or (as horrifying a concept as this may be for some) dishonest marketers.
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  • Profile picture of the author john1818
    I've been receiving tons of this Spammy mails all over. Also, be careful in putting your password! I've been a victim of e-mail hack. I've been a member of numerous forums and i use a standard password for it (both forums and email). To my surprise which i think is dumb. My e-mail was compromised. They used it for sending links to my contacts. Crappy isn't?
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi WSOHelp,

      Fair enough, I've edited the title and all reference to that company in my posts and replaced it
      Hmmm?

      So what's going on here? Does aweber (most of them use aweber) have a massive security leak
      The title is still ridiculous, even if you've removed Aweber from it -

      or everyone DOES sell emails...
      Everyone?

      Anyway, you can get catch alls from hostgator, you just need to know how to ask and have a certain rep/history.

      I agree with most of your assertions. There's a lot of it going on. With a recent paypal primary email, I've only bought WSOs and a handful of non-WSO items and the spammers are using clever (mainly) IM related spam emails, including my full name, which has clearly come from paypal.

      It's even more difficult to tell what's actually spam, because so many Warriors are doing WSO JVs that aren't entirely obvious and also using wording/business names that don't appear to match those they used in the WSOs.

      It's messy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi WSOHelp,

        Hmmm?

        The title is still ridiculous, even if you've removed Aweber from it -

        Everyone?

        Anyway, you can get catch alls from hostgator, you just need to know how to ask and have a certain rep/history.

        I agree with most of your assertions. There's a lot of it going on. With a recent paypal primary email, I've only bought WSOs and a handful of non-WSO items and the spammers are using clever (mainly) IM related spam emails, including my full name, which has clearly come from paypal.

        It's even more difficult to tell what's actually spam, because so many Warriors are doing WSO JVs that aren't entirely obvious and also using wording/business names that don't appear to match those they used in the WSOs.

        It's messy.
        As for my primary paypal email, it is being hammered since I really started to buy a lot of WSOs. This is why I think there is a massive security leak. Remember, this is not a new observation. I've been monitoring this phenominum for a very very long time and yes that company I mentioned when I first created this thread is a definite suspect but I am also getting it from the other majors (which is why the current title isn't as ridiculous as you think) but I'd find that (server leak) easier to believe than EVERYONE sells every email they get - which was my point. It's not likely that EVERYONE is selling so I suspect a major unplugged (perhaps even collusive) leak. After hundreds (possibly thousands) of personal examples and solid proof I just don't believe it's accidental.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Bill,

    Perhaps it has to do with paypal and not the autoresponders, at all.

    As someone else alluded to, already.

    I have noticed too, a year ago, after buying WSOs through paypal, and then getting IM-related emails that were spam as I never signed up to the list and it wasn't the person from whom I bought the WSO, etc.

    Perhaps when making purchases with paypal spammers somehow get access to email addresses in some way, from there somehow?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Yes, that might explain all the paypal leaks but doesn't explain the hundreds of others that autmotaically appear after just a few days on spam lists over the years.
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  • Profile picture of the author pimpmoney
    Alot of the time it will be someone hacking the site and ripping the database.

    I know a lot of people spamming my inbox aren't from any type of list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    sign up to your own list with one of your made up emails and see what happens
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Yep, we'll I've been catching them for years. I'm looking at a bunch of them right now and I can tell from the address exactly where they came from and yes, I'm aware of the spam I can receive by using a catch all and that's not what I'm talking about here (as mentioned above). I'm aware that not ALL companies have leaks and that not EVERYONE sells emails but a LOT of them do and I have proof right in my inbox delivered every hour.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bill,
      a LOT of them do and I have proof
      You have evidence. You interpret it based on your perspective. Some folks might just have broader perspectives that give different interpretations...


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  • Profile picture of the author 2012Cashflow
    I am sure its a mixture of both...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    So Paul, you're saying that I'm narrow minded because I've made an observation over many (many!) years under various conditions and come to a reasonable conclusion? I see what I see and I see it all the time and I've been seeing it for years and I see it today and it's still happening. I've tested it several ways with several variables and it always comes out the same. Not sure how much wider a perspective I need to take. You have come up with some possibilities in an earlier post many of which I have addressed and discounted in my experience and some which I have acknowledged may be remote possibilities. Not sure why you're taking such a defencive position or how these practices could even be defended.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      So Paul, you're saying that I'm narrow minded
      Please point me to that comment on my part.

      A number of us have suggested that there might be things you're not considering. That's hardly the same thing. And I am not "defending" anything. Just pointing out other potential causes.

      No-one said "You're wrong." A few of us said "You might be wrong." If that's a problem for you, you're just proving that the odds are in our favor.


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  • Profile picture of the author barbling
    Generally whenever I sign up for anything, I'll use the acronym of the site as my middle initial. Makes it very easy to track from where emails originate.....
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    It was implied Paul (come on man) and it's not a problem for me at all but even if it was, I don't see how that would increase the odds in your favour. What does that even mean?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bill,
      It was implied Paul
      Where?

      To suggest that someone might have a broader perspective is not the same as implying that their counterpart is narrow-minded. That's just dumb.

      I set up my first tagged address 15+ years ago, sir. I got that one, and the 50 or so that followed, wrong. I found out a few things from watching how they got exploited without being shared. I somehow never managed to publicly disparage innocent parties because of my inability to get the process right.

      I'm done with this silliness for the moment.


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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Innocent parties? Hardly.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Innocent parties? Hardly.
      Be careful, sir. You are very close to making accusations of criminal behavior with no proof, or even credible evidence, to support it.

      You are squarely in Rule #1 territory now.


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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        This is one of those groundhog threads... kind of deja-vu-ish...:rolleyes:
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        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Roger,
          This is one of those groundhog threads...
          That's okay. My Mom is from Punxsutawney.
          kind of deja-vu-ish...kind of deja-vu-ish...
          ...all over again!


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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          I went to one of those kind of conferences.

          Didn't buy anything, but we were all encouraged to hand out our cards with email/website address.

          Guess what? Didn't give my email address to the presenters but I got spammed.

          So maybe you gave your card out willy nilly and a couple of fellow attendees spammed you.

          Not saying this is what happened, but it's a possibility.


          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Well, this was worth staying awake for after all.

            Roger has a WSO going. I didn't even watch to see what the topic was, or the price. Just clicked until I had it. I'm going to like this.

            Thankee, suh!


            Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    we were all encouraged to hand out our cards with email/website address.
    Nope, no business cards. It was as I descibed above I just used emails for signing up to specific seminar offers.
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    • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
        Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

        So how do you arrive at blaming services like Aweber, when you know for a fact where the leak started?
        That was just one of hundreds of examples. I was asked to drop the names but I think this because that's what they all seem to have in common.

        Edit Add:
        People have a go at the larger companies on here all the time, Google, Microsoft, yahoo...etc are mention in grievances all the time. I thought the company I originally mentioned was big enough to stand up to a bit of scrutiny and deduction reasoning.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            What they also have in common are a customer base made up primarily of people who are involved in IM. Awever and other services can only control how your email address is used through their service - not what the list owner does with it outside of their service.

            I've used the same Gmail account for years, I don't subscribe to anything IM related but I do still get UCE from marketers. Not a lot - I get perhaps 50 emails or so a day in the spam folder.

            A few weeks ago, I had a pissed off customer who decided to sign us up to a bunch of lists...everything from IM to porn. We did get a lot of confirmation requests from Aweber, which we did not confirm of course.

            In spite of that, spam remained at its normal level (I don't consider the confirmation emails spam).

            I would think if Aweber had a leak, I'd being seeing a lot more spam than I do. From my perspective, their system did its job - at the end of the day, no real harm was done, except of course for the customer's abuse of the system.

            I think you're over reaching on who or what to blame.
            I would agree with you if it wasn't so consistent.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            I'm sure it is - I've never used Aweber, but it seems to work. It's your reasoning and deductions that aren't making sense - you should be looking at the individuals first and how they handled your email address.
            I did - for the first few years I blamed each person individually (privately in my head I thought "look at this loser, sells my email almost immediately") but now it just happens as a matter of course and has spread so far and wide that I had to consider a wider cause and the only thing that makes sense is database hacking or "something else" but whatever's happening it's widespread and though the deja vu comments are (truly) hilarious I have never heard of anyone using the catch all feature in this manner and who have come to the same conclusion as I have.

            I thought it was worth mentioning because of all the testing I've done. I beg everyone's forgiveness if address selling and theft has been raised before. I thought my unique observation might of been of some interest.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Bill,
    I have never heard of anyone using the catch all feature in this manner and who have come to the same conclusion as I have.
    Lots of people have used tagged addresses to track leaks, and the question comes up fairly regularly.

    The problem isn't bringing up the issue. It's coming to a conclusion and pointing the finger without taking enough of the possible variables into account.


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    I'm not sure how I would do that. I enter emails into forms and within a few days sometimes weeks, but more often than not (by a large margin) they end up in the spammer's hands. I am looking right now at 4 of them all with identifying email prefixes and all of them have nothing whatsoever to do with the original website. One was given out less than a week ago to someone on here and I know for a fact that my machine is clean and my server is clean and the form was entered into a "very common" list provider's form.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr Bill
    Thanks for your watery advice dude.

    Read the entire thread before you sprout off next time though. I have addressed all your "solutions". My machine is clean, my server is clean and the pitch fest was from the best known name in the industry. The rates at pitchfest seminars is more like 50% commission by the way. If you took the time to read the thread properly you will see that all your excellent "suggestions" have already been suggested by awesome people already.

    Like I have said probably about a dozen times already, I am NOT talking about people sharing my email with the promoter (which of course they promised not to do in front of us all) "we will not sell or share your email with anyone ever!" - bull****!

    I am talking about emails being sold or hackers getting into email databases almost immediately and I'm not focusing on that one worthless event. Read the whole thread and you'll see that I've been testing this for many many years.

    Thank you for your input though. It was very valuable.
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