Why The Blog Thread Was Removed And Not Brought Back...

[John Taylor]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

It's kind of an unwritten rule that you don't keep drawing attention to your sig file. In a sense, it's not necessary. If you make good posts people will check you out anyway.

Martin,

In my opinion that part of your response nailed it.

John

[Paul Coleman]

And, if we are not sure, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks, Martin. You make some good points. For me, as long as I get good info, I don't care about anything else. I've picked great info out of ebooks filled with extra junk. I just strip out the good stuff and keep rolling.

I would rather have the poster tell me directly about his WSO. Of course, if the info is weak I will never make it to his sig. But as you say, it's a judgement call.

Paul

[mmurtha]

Hey Chris (Hunter),

Does anyone know why Kneb's very knowledgeable thread about public domain work was removed?

Did you see this post yet?

shkad14 wrote:

Why is the "$4500 Case Study" thread still up then? This guy had a WSO in his sig before he ever had a single response. That was the most blatent attempt as self promotion I have seen on WF. His thread is about how wonderful public domains are, and he is promoting a WSO, not only in his sig, but also within some of his posts as well.

This is why.

[JCTunes]

Do we report the thread, or an individual post?

BTW, I still have Kneb's public domain thread in my "Subscribed Threads" list. Hope it's still active.

[lgibbon]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

That's a difficult one.

If that happened the question I would ask is

"Which came first? The WSO or the thread?"

And it's hard to know the answer to that because we can't read the OP's mind. It's a judgement call. If a Warrior is not very active and then suddenly starts a thread linked to a WSO I would be suspicious.

That could suggest they were not 'giving freely' to the forum but only posting for their own benefit. Yes, people would still benefit from the post but it's a poisoned chalice.

Related to this is the integrity of the post. If my post were designed to promote a WSO, wouldn't I be just a little bit tempted to embellish things a little?

It's kind of an unwritten rule that you don't keep drawing attention to your sig file. In a sense, it's not necessary. If you make good posts people will check you out anyway.

Having said all that, Jason Moffat was commenting on how he abandoned an idea for a blog project for Warriors because he got flak from people who thought it was pure self-promotion.

We can't know people's intentions. We can only make an educated guess based on our experience and knowledge of the person concerned.

And, if we are not sure, we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Martin

There are still a few of these threads alive which are blatant WSO ads
or just self promotion.
It;s a bit unfair on those that have had theirs deleted
to have to view these everyday.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Chris Hunter

Also, are we now saying that no kind of forum marketing can take place on a forum full of marketers? LOL!! I mean, come on.

Chris,

The funny thing about that statement is that forums are not for "marketing". They are for discussions. Unless a forum has a section 'for' marketing 'in' the forum. Like the WSO section.

So the answer to your question is No. In here, no 'forum marketing' is supposed to be taking place, unless you are in a section that is set up for it.

If you are here for that then you really only see this place as a place to make sales, not to discuss anything.

Allen

[Steven Fullman]

OK. Aimed at no-one in particular. But, probably more than I'd hoped.

Wikipedia defines Marketing as:

Marketing is defined...as the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large.

Wkipedia goes on to say this about Forums:

People participating in an Internet forum can build bonds with each other and interest groups will easily form around a topic's discussion, subjects dealt within or around sections in the forum.

The more we focus on building bonds, and delivering information of value, rather than pissing on everyone else's parade...the better off we'll all be.


Damn my idealogical upbringing.

Steve

[tomw]

Originally Posted by Steven Fullman

The more we focus on building bonds, and delivering information of value, rather than pissing on everyone else's parade...the better off we'll all be.

Hi Steve,

I think that you've completely missed the point of this thread and many of those made within it.

It's Allen's "parade," not "everyone else's." Participation in this forum is a privilege not a right and that privilege certainly does not extend to asserting any "ownership" or "branding" of any part of it.

Just like with anyone else's property either virtual or physical.



Thomas

P.S. That's a great shiny new blog. You're right, the new PRS looks awesome!

[Justin Mandel]

Thanks for doing this Allen.

It will certainly clean things up lots for us

[Steven Fullman]

Originally Posted by tomw

Hi Steve,

P.S. That's a great shiny new blog. You're right, the new PRS looks awesome!

Yes, Tom, it is awesome.

P.S. I disagree, but not about the privilege part...

[Chris Hunter]

Originally Posted by admin

If you are here for that then you really only see this place as a place to make sales, not to discuss anything.

Allen,

I am not here for that and I think that I've proven it over time. Others maybe, but not me.

I only made that statement in regards to the fact that many people come here asking questions about how to get traffic to their sites or WSOs and one of the suggestions given to them is to perform forum marketing.

To me, it just made sense to see forum marketing in a place where forum marketing is suggested, is all.

But I see your point.

I guess my question is this: If I'm running a WSO about how to get more traffic from your articles and a link to my WSO is in my sig, should I not post answers to threads with article marketing questions?

I'm asking this seriously. Not trying at all to be a smart-alec.

[mmurtha]

Hey Chris (Hunter),

Jeff is right about how forum marketing is perceived, and I think Allen will agree.

It's not about pushing or advertising your products directly, and this is where people get confused.

It's about sharing informatiom, and in this sharing of info you may or may not get traffic to your sig file. So you are basically marketing yourself by the way you post or present yourself in a forum. I too think that if you are posting simply for traffic and sales, then you are missing out on the biggest gift of this forum, and probably the other forums you post to as well.

Think of it in this way if it'll help:

If you say you are going to give a gift to someone but your primary motives are for personal gain instead of gifting, it's not a gift at all. You'd make out much better in the long run by giving a genuine gift because people will view you in a different light.

So it's not about "What's in it for me" in the end, but "what is it that I can offer to someone else", or pack into the stream.

[Paul Myers]

Paul (ic7),

Ok, if someone creates a very useful thread and at the end of their post says, "Check my sig for more info." And in their sig is a link to their related WSO...

...is this out of line?

Ahh... THAT can get tricky. Even long time members can get confused about that.

I spoke with a gentleman the other day who's been a member here for four years or so. He occasionally jumps into threads and offers help or comments, but rarely starts his own. He saw a question repeated, remembered my comment about the value of the content, and posted an article he'd written that he thought answered a number of those questions. Complete with copyright date.

That looked self-promotional, and got deleted. Properly so, as he readily agreed when the situation was explained to him.

He could have done the same thing by prefacing the post with, "I've seen X posts recently asking about [problem]. One here, one here and one there. Rather than post the same thing in a bunch of threads, I thought I'd offer my thoughts on it in one place, in the hopes it will be helpful to anyone who might have the same questions."

Then edit the thing so it becomes part of the conversation, rather than an "announcement." Done properly, that could be a good way to handle it.

I recommend against pointing to an offer in a sig file unless it's in response to a specific request for information on the topic. I very strongly recommend against pointing to any offer at all in a thread starter. It's very difficult to do that without being perceived as having posted for the advertising value.

I say perceived because we don't really ever know the intent of the poster. We, as collective moderators, have to make decisions based on what things look like. If it looks like an ad, we need to get rid of it, because leaving it stay will encourage others to do the same thing in the same way. That leads folks to post ads intentionally.

Does that lead to people with good intentions occasionally being foiled in their efforts to be helpful? Sure. And that sucks. But it doesn't suck as much as creating an excuse for dozens of people with less helpful intentions to claim they're "just doing what Joey did."

Chris,

I guess my question is this: If I'm running a WSO about how to get more traffic from your articles and a link to my WSO is in my sig, should I not post answers to threads with article marketing questions?

Jeff nailed it. Answering questions is the place where my comments apply about the value of the post being the factor that determines fitness.

If the answers would be useful without the sig file being attached, then yeah. The answers are appropriate, and the presence of a sig file should be irrelevant, except to people who find them useful enough to want more.

Example: I've been answering threads here about writing for a looong time. When I had an offer going for a book on the subject, I didn't let that stop me from continuing to answer those same sorts of questions. In fact, I made sure I put more effort into giving complete answers, in order to make sure people got more value from the posts themselves.

Some people might have thought that was intended to get attention for the offer. It wasn't, but that was probably an added benefit.

That's how it works. The more value you offer for people who don't buy from you, the more attention you'll get from the folks who want to learn what you teach.

The offer is gone now, but those posts still have value. That might be another useful way to look at it, if you're not sure.


Paul

[admin]

Originally Posted by Chris Hunter

Allen,

I am not here for that and I think that I've proven it over time. Others maybe, but not me.

I only made that statement in regards to the fact that many people come here asking questions about how to get traffic to their sites or WSOs and one of the suggestions given to them is to perform forum marketing.

To me, it just made sense to see forum marketing in a place where forum marketing is suggested, is all.

But I see your point.

I guess my question is this: If I'm running a WSO about how to get more traffic from your articles and a link to my WSO is in my sig, should I not post answers to threads with article marketing questions?

I'm asking this seriously. Not trying at all to be a smart-alec.

Hi Chris,

As mentioned in a few good posts above yes it would be ok.

The only problem we use to have with that is someone coming in and searching for all posts related to their WSO and putting in one line responses to every single thread. Suddenly you end up with 45 article threads on the front of the forum all with this posters one line responses :-)

[Kneb Knebaih]

*

Hi Allen (and moderators):

I noticed that you have removed my thread:

"$3,000 in 45 days + $2,000 in 30 days + $600 in 3 days... Real Warrior case study"


I am aware of the "self-promotion threads controversy"... but believe me when I say that I shared there lots of practical information, not even included in my book.

I don´t post for selfish or self-promotion purposes (I don´t need it), and I never ever mention my WSO or any of my services (you can browse my posts there to verification).

Surely, many Warriors can testify that.


I just wanted to really share free practical info (of course, about my topic, that´s what I have expertise on).

Even more, there were other Warriors who jumped on the thread to blatantly promote his own related services, and even launched related WSOs.

(You can read that thread to see for yourself.)

And I sincerely apologize if the thread became offensive to some Warriors, or I crossed the line. That was not my intention.

I always intend to offer sincere help and share practical information through my posts.

(Heck, I was really baffled after watching the movie "Seven Pounds"... That was a life-changing moment for me: nothing beats the feeling of being able to help people... nothing).


But the point is: that thread became a true goldmine, with lots of Warriors sharing great information and even their own case studies and experiences.

And as Paul Myers wisely pointed out, that thread will still be a goldmine of information by itself, one year from now, when my sig will show unrelated stuff (or just won´t show any link).

Of course, I accept and respect your decision of removing the thread.


What I don´t really understand is what was my fault...

It was the the fact that I posted great information about my topic of expertise?


As an example, one of the most large and viewed WF posts of all times:

"Here´s a stupidly simple cash cow..." by David Preston


I loved that thread, a true goldmine.

But the original poster, David, has books and offer services related to the information he was sharing (and the same for David Cavannagh and others, great contributors to that thread)...

So that´s a problem, from now on?

I don´t see any problem with that, providing that the poster is sharing true value, as David Preston and others did.

And he indeed mentioned in some of his posts that he has a book on the topic (I purchased it).

Well, if all of you remember, that post was followed by a hard-promoted seminar for Warriors through every page on the forum (I even thought I was visiting a David Preston site when I saw the large banner ad on every page)...

But again, no problem with that.


I think though that this situation can generate confussion and censure great information-sharing in the near future.



The only thing I ask is:

It would be possible to make the thread live again (in any other location or unrelated link)... just for me, to recoup the information and save it.

Let´s say for the next 24 hours only, so I can have the time to save the pages.

It would be a big loss (at least for me) to miss that information forever.


I hope you can understand my point.



With Respect,
Kneb Knebaih

*

[Steve Taylor]

Originally Posted by Kneb Knebaih

Oh, I can access it now, thanks...


Please, let me 24 hours to copy/paste and save the pages, before to remove it completely.


Thanks

Kneb,

If you use firefox, go to file-print-then pdf option...it takes only a few seconds to do.

-Steve

[tommygadget]

Hmmm... I guess my thread also got bombed in this wave of deletions. I also simply posted an experiment in flipping a blog from scratch. The purpose of the entire thread was to counter the wave of negativity on the forum when it started. I guess it prompted many copycat threads and there were a lot of one-liner newbie posters. I summarized the whole experiment in a free .pdf and posted it as a free WSO. Maybe the thread could be brought back and locked so as not to attract the trolls. My apologies if I contributed to a problem here as that clearly was NOT my intention, just trying to inspire and share information. Thanks.

TomG.

[MizzCindy]

I get the premise behind nipping blatant WSO promotion in the bud. Troll-like spammy stuff dilutes the value of this forum.

However, in the case of Kneb's thread, I have to say there was a ton of useful information there - provided by Kneb and other posters who freely shared their experiences and knowledge.

In cases like that thread, which became a rich resource (in the spirit of this forum in general, I think), it would have been beneficial for members to be able to continue reading and/or participating because it was truly useful stuff to know.

I love this forum and I respect the efforts made to keep it top-notch. It gets tough to draw the line between what is and isn't a positive contribution and that in and of itself can be a never ending cycle.

I guess I'm saying this - if a thread's deletion actually removes information that benefits warriors and depletes the overall pool of killer content that makes this forum special (and it doesn't violate the other rules of this forum), maybe it would be worth reinstating - as in the case of Kneb's thread.

At any rate, this forum has been a main source of inspiration and knowledge for my growing online business. For that, I remain incredibly grateful...and loyal!

Cindy

[lgibbon]

I can't believe all these people whining about their posts being deleted.
They've hogged the main forum for months and they're still not happy.
If these posts are so important they should be on your blogs.

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by lgibbon

I can't believe all these people whining about their posts being deleted.
They've hogged the main forum for months and they're still not happy.
If these posts are so important they should be on your blogs.

Ahem... As one of the whiners you are referring to, I was simply asking for the thread to be re-instated and locked specifically so that it does not annoy people like you when newbies post inane one liners to up post count. Without new posts to bump it, the thread will sink but people searching on the topic will be able to benefit. Is that whining? If so, so be it.

TomG.

[Paul Coleman]

If it looks like an ad, we need to get rid of it, because leaving it stay will encourage others to do the same thing in the same way. That leads folks to post ads intentionally.

Good point, Paul. I guess it's the avalanche we want to avoid. Otherwise the noise drowns out the valuable info.

Paul

[ecoverartist]

I have a question although I think the answer's going to be "because this is Allen's forum and he can do what he wants" which is fine but it would clarify a lot for me!

David Preston's "Cash Cow" thread would also promote books, courses and such, and for a time there was an ad at the very top of the forum for it. How is that one okay but Kneb's is not? Just curious, that's all.

(As a disclaimer, I enjoyed both of those threads although I didn't read through all 100 pages of them so they might have been soured by spammers and self promoters by the time they were removed!)

[Louis Raven]

Originally Posted by tommygadget

Ahem... As one of the whiners you are referring to, I was simply asking for the thread to be re-instated and locked specifically so that it does not annoy people like you when newbies post inane one liners to up post count. Without new posts to bump it, the thread will sink but people searching on the topic will be able to benefit. Is that whining? If so, so be it.

TomG.

Hey Tom,

You had a great thread thread but if your's is re-instated, Allen will be bombarded with "let me let me" PM's.

Also, at what point should they be locked? This will cause an admin or super-mod to sift through and subscribe to all challenge threads until he/they thinks they have enough meat to sustain a locking for future searchers.

It's like most things around here.. some threads will make noobies a lot of cash whilst pissing off other members at the same time.

Anyway it's not my place to even comment on the subject.

Louis

[tj]

Originally Posted by Chris Hunter

Does anyone know why Kneb's very knowledgeable thread about public domain work was removed?

Also, are we now saying that no kind of forum marketing can take place on a forum full of marketers? LOL!! I mean, come on.

Not trying to be disrespectful in anyway, just curious as to where the lines are drawn, so I thought that I'd ask and not test the boundaries.

You can find it in the Test Forum.

Timo

[Steven Wagenheim]

You know, this thread (fascinating as it is) has made me realize something.

It almost doesn't matter what the initial thread starter is. From what I've
personally seen here, most threads that become extremely "popular" are
one of three kinds.

1. How To
2. Rant
3. Watch Me

Ultimately, almost all these threads end up getting deleted for a variety of
reasons that are almost pointless to get into here.

The cost of a popular thread to the thread creator is its actual popularity.
Even a perfectly benign thread, once it reaches the point where it gets
so big and members get sick and tired of seeing it on page 1 day after
day, eventually get nuked...even if not one bad thing was said in the
thread itself. It is the nature of the beast.

For that reason, it's pointless to get worked up over this stuff.

Would you rather start a thread that got 20 views and vanished into
obscurity within 4 hours?

If you've contributed to the forum discussion and your thread became
popular enough to be deleted, consider it a compliment.

Warped way of looking at it?

Maybe, but it sure beats getting upset over it.

[jjpmarketing]

You know, Steve... someone should make a tshirt and sell it as a WSO... with something like:



WTF? Where did my 40,000 view thread go?

OR

I am officially a Warrior. My thread got deleted.

[R Hagel]

Hmmmm...

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

From what I've
personally seen here, most threads that become extremely "popular" are
one of three kinds.

1. How To
2. Rant
3. Watch Me

"Watch Me Rant -- And Discover How You Can Do It Too!"





cheers,
Becky

[tommygadget]

Excellent points here Louis, and that is why I won't comment on it again. The main point here is that I took the most important parts and created a .pdf which is both in the freebies section and wso section.

Originally Posted by Louis Raven

You had a great thread thread but if your's is re-instated, Allen will be bombarded with "let me let me" PM's. Also, at what point should they be locked?

Louis

Another good one, funny as usual, Steve.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If you've contributed to the forum discussion and your thread became popular enough to be deleted, consider it a compliment.

Warped way of looking at it?

Maybe, but it sure beats getting upset over it.

I like this one too

Originally Posted by jjpmarketing

I am officially a Warrior. My thread got deleted.

TomG.