Are YOU Being Scammed Too? Potentially Bogus PayPal Orders - Any Idea Why?

by drmani
33 replies
I've run into a rather unusual situation, and am wondering if Warriors
can throw some light on it. Never had this happen in the many years
I've sold infoproducts online.

Over the last week, I've received a series of orders through PayPal,
from different 'buyers'.

Each is for one of a set of $67 ebooks - a series of products I bought
the resale rights to, and put up for sale on my website.

The funny part is that I've made 8 or 9 sales in the last 7 days -
while the entire collection typically sells 1 or 2 copies a MONTH!

What makes me suspicious is:

* all the PayPal addresses are hotmail.com, yahoo.com or live.com
emails

* NONE of the addresses are on ANY of my email lists

* 4 of the orders came in from sales letters that are for
DIFFERENT products (I put up placeholders to modify later, and
forgot all about it!)

So here's a mystery buyer who isn't on my list, uses a free email
address, stumbles upon my sales letter (for one product), and clicks
on the order button to make a $67 payment, receives A DIFFERENT
ebook from the one advertised - and doesn't complain, write to
ask what went wrong, or initiate a refund request.

That's IF the 'buyer' is even a real person.

And this doesn't happen once, but 4 times in a week (for a set of
ebooks that typically sell 2 or 3 per month).

Any thoughts or ideas about what kind of scam this is, and what
my risks/dangers could be?

I wrote to PayPal highlighting the situation and asking if they'd
investigate the transactions. The reply I received indicated that
since the transactions were completed, they couldn't investigate it
UNLESS the buyer opened a dispute.

The products are set up on RAP (Rapid Action Profits), btw.

Oh, and if it sounds as if I'm complaining about making more money,
I can understand how it seems that way - just that I'm thinking it's
pretty much guaranteed the payments are going to be reversed sooner
or later! (You optimist, you!)

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Thanks.

All success
Dr.Mani
#bogus #business #funny #idea #orders #paypal #potentially
  • Profile picture of the author ShawnSells
    Since it all happened in the last week, I would give it more time to shake out. You may be right, and you end up getting a bunch of Paypal transaction reversed. Not too good, but you just notified PP, so it's just watch and wait.
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  • Profile picture of the author Itsbob
    there are certain services you can use to check the guys ip address against the physical address he has on his paypal profile. If the distances are too far or if hes using a proxy, the service will show it, so you'll know its fraud. I use that and it helps for most cases with stolen cards..But youll need to capture the guys ip. which at this point would require emailing him back and asking him to fill some form where you could record his ip.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    probably stolen cards. the buyers wanted to buy your stuff, but did not want to use their own money. so they are on a spending spree now.

    once the owner of the financial assets picks up on what is going on, the chargebacks will come.
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author JayBlogMan83
    That really Sux when it happens if it is bogus.. Most of us wait for the day when our sales $$ will blow up only to have some @sswipes give us false success. Hope it is legit and you just getting money!
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    • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
      Well, since nothing happened just yet, I will remain quite happy about the problem you are facing Dr Mani

      There is no way to identify that it is a fraud charge just yet- or confirm one as such. You gotta wait and see.

      I am not worried about it being free emails (people do use free email service), but I will be worried if all the IPs are the same. If they are different, and there is no chargeback, I will simply put this as being a lucky sales and enjoy
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by ShawnSells View Post

        Since it all happened in the last week, I would give it more time to shake out. You may be right, and you end up getting a bunch of Paypal transaction reversed. Not too good, but you just notified PP, so it's just watch and wait.
        I guess it is. That's why I notified PP, to avoid being penalized in some way
        for this later on. Will update you all after a few weeks.

        Originally Posted by Itsbob View Post

        there are certain services you can use to check the guys ip address against the physical address he has on his paypal profile. If the distances are too far or if hes using a proxy, the service will show it, so you'll know its fraud. I use that and it helps for most cases with stolen cards..But youll need to capture the guys ip. which at this point would require emailing him back and asking him to fill some form where you could record his ip.
        Good idea. Will see if my web log captured any of this info, or if I can
        get access to it in some other way. My wife did suggest emailing those
        addresses to see if they're legit and if people respond. Maybe I'll try
        that too.

        I just went back and checked - NONE of these 'bogus' payments have a
        physical address sent with the payment notification. Not sure if there's
        a way to check on their PP profile about this. Will take a look.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        probably stolen cards. the buyers wanted to buy your stuff, but did not want to use their own money. so they are on a spending spree now.

        once the owner of the financial assets picks up on what is going on, the chargebacks will come.
        At first, I thought so, Bill. The first 3 purchases were for different
        ebooks. But then, the following 3 sales were for the same one (on traffic
        methods).

        I also thought it was some digital pirate wanting to pick up the file and
        then share it on other sites with fellow content thieves - but why would
        they pay multiple times for the same one?!

        Also worrying about how much the chargebacks might cost, considering
        these sales are still trickling in - got one more today. Have taken
        down the order links for those pages for the moment!

        Originally Posted by JayBlogMan83 View Post

        That really Sux when it happens if it is bogus.. Most of us wait for the day when our sales $$ will blow up only to have some @sswipes give us false success. Hope it is legit and you just getting money!
        Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

        Well, since nothing happened just yet, I will remain quite happy about the problem you are facing Dr Mani

        There is no way to identify that it is a fraud charge just yet- or confirm one as such. You gotta wait and see.
        That's a bright thought. Maybe I will hope for that - sure beats
        worrying about what's hard to explain


        Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

        I am not worried about it being free emails (people do use free email service), but I will be worried if all the IPs are the same. If they are different, and there is no chargeback, I will simply put this as being a lucky sales and enjoy
        Things that I find difficult to explain logically worry me, regardless,
        Suthan

        Anyway, if it's 'lucky sales', I'll be really happy - though given the
        circs, I'd also be really surprised!

        Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

        I'll share updates on how this evolves over time.

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author supershoesclub
          Originally Posted by drmani View Post

          I guess it is. That's why I notified PP, to avoid being penalized in some way
          for this later on. Will update you all after a few weeks.



          Good idea. Will see if my web log captured any of this info, or if I can
          get access to it in some other way. My wife did suggest emailing those
          addresses to see if they're legit and if people respond. Maybe I'll try
          that too.

          I just went back and checked - NONE of these 'bogus' payments have a
          physical address sent with the payment notification. Not sure if there's
          a way to check on their PP profile about this. Will take a look.



          At first, I thought so, Bill. The first 3 purchases were for different
          ebooks. But then, the following 3 sales were for the same one (on traffic
          methods).

          I also thought it was some digital pirate wanting to pick up the file and
          then share it on other sites with fellow content thieves - but why would
          they pay multiple times for the same one?!

          Also worrying about how much the chargebacks might cost, considering
          these sales are still trickling in - got one more today. Have taken
          down the order links for those pages for the moment!





          That's a bright thought. Maybe I will hope for that - sure beats
          worrying about what's hard to explain




          Things that I find difficult to explain logically worry me, regardless,
          Suthan

          Anyway, if it's 'lucky sales', I'll be really happy - though given the
          circs, I'd also be really surprised!

          Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

          I'll share updates on how this evolves over time.

          All success
          Dr.Mani
          the above point are really good ways to verify the bogus paypal transaction.in my own way,i just check whether the buyer's email address name is same as its paypal email address or you can search it in google to see if someone has report it already because of the scam action.
          call the buyer directly to check the problem is also a good way in my mind to confirm the order
          paypal only resolve the problem when it happen.But paypal couldn't prevent the potential buyer to pay.That is. just wait for the case if it is a scam.hold the proof and document to dispute it to reduce the loss.maybe it is not too bad.take it easy.
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        • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
          Banned
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author drmani
            Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

            If they're using stolen cards and you're using RAP, it might work like this:

            1. They sign up as an affiliate through RAP.
            2. They buy one copy - you get paid.
            3. They buy the next copy - they get paid.
            4. Repeat until caught...

            Meanwhile, they withdraw the money and run...leaving you on the hook for the ones you were paid for.
            Interesting. That certainly fits the facts, as I know them. Except the 2nd (or later)
            sales aren't happening (or showing up in RAP's control panel!) They should, if they
            are made using the affiliate link!

            Another question, then, is should I refund these orders right away - or wait? (for what?)

            Personally, I'm thinking the same as John - a new affiliate sending a bunch of traffic.
            RAP shows affiliate referred sales distinct from direct sales.

            All these are direct sales.

            Normally, PayPal is really good about catching credit card fraud (unusual payment activity) immediately.
            That's true - and why I'm baffled.

            This is what the rep wrote, in part, to my earlier support ticket:

            Having reviewed your PayPal account, I noticed you receive four payments and the statuses are "Completed". Unfortunately to let you know, due to the transaction have already completed and sent to you PayPal account then the transactions are unable to be review on put on hold.

            However if you have doubt on the transactions, I can highly suggest you to contact the buyer to clarify regarding the concern. I understand your concern but if any scenario the buyers file a dispute toward you, do not worry as long as you are able to provide all the information that are require for the dispute then we definitely will investigate the issue. PayPal does protect our seller as well our buyer.


            Should they place any of those payments on hold while they "Investigate", I'd recommend refunding the payment immediately, to head off any chargeback fees.
            Will do. As of now, they're saying it's a 'completed' transaction, and cannot investigate.

            Thanks, Mike.

            All success
            Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by Suthan M View Post

        I am not worried about it being free emails (people do use free email service), but I will be worried if all the IPs are the same. If they are different, and there is no chargeback, I will simply put this as being a lucky sales and enjoy
        PayPal's data includes IP addresses - and they are all different for the 9 purchases,
        all are in the U.S.

        No response yet to the emails I sent out (but it's only a few hours).

        Wait and watch, I guess (reminds me of days as an intern in the ObGyn unit! :lol: )

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Email the suspicious customers and tell them that you want to give them a bonus in exchange for their telephone number. Then call them and feel it out.
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    Founder of JVZoo. All around good guy :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    wow I guess its some stolen cards just like someone mentioned above.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

      Email the suspicious customers and tell them that you want to give them a bonus in exchange for their telephone number. Then call them and feel it out.
      Done. Just hearing back on the email should give me some reassurance.
      Will see what happens next.

      Originally Posted by Kal Sallam View Post

      wow I guess its some stolen cards just like someone mentioned above.
      Yes, but why order 3 copies of the same ebook, then?!

      None of this makes sense!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheila Dunfrey
    Scammers are everywhere. If you think it is scam, report it to the concern people to solve your problem.
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  • Profile picture of the author justfun54
    Dr. Mani - Hope this specific occurences which ultimately became a situation for you to
    share, does NOT end up with you becoming scammed.

    I am one of your ardent followers who have been helped out in identifying - my life's
    purposes, redefining values & to a new mode of realising that one can Think.

    Knowing that you have completed specialty training in medical school more than a
    decade & then embarking on, in the pursuit of doing something exeptional to the
    underpriviledged children in the field of Heart Surgery, Free, is not feat that any one
    could dare to, dream of.

    I have been reading your works and I am not surprised that you think much more & far
    ahead, than when it (Thinking) is normally allowed to happen in 'JUST' mode.

    Using the services of 'Paypal like' - is a necessity to almost anyone, right now.
    One does not have to read late Sir. Arthur C. Clarke - to see tha light.

    The one bite bitten "apple" may be trend.
    But getting to know & realising the visions of the Late Visionary is a must for
    e-commerce.

    The beauty of this situ is the reply you got from Paypal:

    " indicated that since the transactions were completed, they couldn't investigate it
    UNLESS the buyer opened a dispute".

    Who is Paypal serving - whats the prime number !!?
    Is it the buyer or their client, may I ask !! ?

    Without the Seller where would Paypal be !! ?
    Is not the Seller, their (Paypal's) client, in the first place - in the process !!?

    This should make them realise their (Paypal's) intermediary role as well as their bounded
    obligation to their customers.

    Let this be the final nail on - 'Thinking Customer Service'.

    You, Sir, never mention about your family on the www.

    OK! it might be not necessary, to be alarmed.
    I sincerely, hope not.

    But it is IMPORTANT to think about this occurence of, 'repeated suspicious occurences'.

    And it is URGENT for us to think about the whole gamut of 'Customer Xperience' if we do
    not want to spare any holes.
    -----------//
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  • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
    Hey Doc,

    If your products are all being sold through RAP you
    can access the RAP admin area and check details
    such as IP address.

    Also, it may simply be that a smart affiliate has found
    your products are being sold through RAP and has sent
    you some quality traffic.

    I guess it's a sign of the times that even a nice increase
    in income makes us suspicious. <sigh>

    John
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    John's Internet Marketing News, Views & Reviews: John Taylor Online
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  • Profile picture of the author goldliger
    I didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but this can be scammers who've purchased credit card numbers online, *testing* different cards to see if they work... I've had this happen on several merchant accounts and there's not really any good solution (that I've come up with anyhow) other than refunding the orders immediately, so that they don't result in chargebacks. If it's all done through one IP address and not a proxy, hopefully you can have your web host block the IP.

    -Bryan
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post

      If your products are all being sold through RAP you
      can access the RAP admin area and check details
      such as IP address.

      Also, it may simply be that a smart affiliate has found
      your products are being sold through RAP and has sent
      you some quality traffic.
      It is an RAP install, John, and while I can't find IP details in the
      database, it is in the PayPal data - and they are all different
      IPs, though all are US based.

      All sales are my own, not affiliate referrals.

      I guess it's a sign of the times that even a nice increase
      in income makes us suspicious. <sigh>
      There are too many red flags to simply accept them as legit
      referrals.

      * All free emails, with first letter capitalized, meaningless strings
      of letters, not in any way related to the name on the account

      * All PayPal accounts are "unregistered" and have no physical
      mailing address

      * Some sales come from pages where the sales letter is for a
      different product! (I had intended to update them later, and
      forgot)

      * None of the 'post sales' actions of these 'buyers' were in any
      way typical

      * No response to my emails asking if they got the download

      * Unusual volume of sales, over 4 times the norm


      Originally Posted by goldliger View Post

      ... other than refunding the orders immediately, so that they don't result in chargebacks. If it's all done through one IP address and not a proxy, hopefully you can have your web host block the IP.
      They're through different IPs.

      I just might refund a few of them in some days from now, unless
      something turns up to prove they are legit or confirm they're not.
      As of now, my primary concerns are preventing chargebacks (and
      the attendant expense, and ? reputation hit to my PP account),
      and not being 'taken' for some other bigger scam involving my
      account. Of course, the other possibility of a content thief taking
      the ebooks to distribute illegally is of concern too - but that's a
      more familiar situation I can take corrective steps on.

      Thanks guys!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
    I'm just wondering if there could be a more innocent explanation such as someone has written a blog post recommending your site or this product?

    Have you done a search to see if you can find your product mentioned anywhere else?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tommy Smith
    This is a serious issue. Is it really true that you will be scammed at Paypal? Is what i learned Paypal is good in knowing fraud credit card.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Originally Posted by Tommy Smith View Post

      This is a serious issue. Is it really true that you will be scammed at Paypal? Is what i learned Paypal is good in knowing fraud credit card.
      No, not "at PayPal".

      I'm getting some orders with payments made via PayPal through different
      accounts in a pattern that's completely atypical from anything I've seen in
      recent times - and I'm wondering if anyone could shed light on this situation.

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author CTonline09
    Sounds like a chargeback is coming your way!

    Or perhaps you just got a lucky month....

    I doubt that though.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    Dr. Mani,

    Like Big Mike, I wouldn't worry about it right now, but if you want someone else to look closely at the info, submit a Help Desk ticket to me at Help - Powered By The 'Three Pillars' Support Desk System

    There is info in the RAP database that is not shown on any of the reports, so with your cPanel login info (be sure to provide that), I can dig into the information more readily than most RAP users.

    You can also set the "Email IPN Log" option in your RAP product set up, so that all of that information is emailed to you as the transactions occur. It will contain every field in the IPN transaction that was sent to your web server when the transaction was completed. (Be sure to look at the "custom" field in the IPN. It contains the buyers IP address.)

    I always run with that option set, myself.

    goldliger's response (above) regarding the *testing* of stolen credit cards, using online payment services, is also worth noting. This DOES happen at Paypal, too, and when it is identified, there should be no penalties with regard to a subsequent chargeback.

    Again, contact me, and I'll have a look at it myself, if you want.
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    Sid Hale
    Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

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  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    Dr. Mani,

    Like it's been said, I wouldn't worry about it for now. You contacted PayPal and made them aware if it, so that's the best bet for now. Helps protect you down the road.

    Having Sid look at things is next.

    Then, if there is a problem, I would recommend Bill and Erin's 'Ban Buyers' add on. At least then you can ensure that they won't be able to buy again.

    Thanks,

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Reed
    You have to watch the affiliate scammers that buy your product with stolen credit cards in the hope that you will send them real affiliate commissions before the chargebacks roll in.
    This is why I tell people NOT to use a mindless Mass Pay system that simply selects a date range and pays everyone in that range.

    You always need to retain a "human filter" on payments before you send the cash.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Tom,

      Originally Posted by Tom Reed View Post

      You have to watch the affiliate scammers that buy your product with stolen credit cards in the hope that you will send them real affiliate commissions before the chargebacks roll in.
      This is why I tell people NOT to use a mindless Mass Pay system that simply selects a date range and pays everyone in that range.

      You always need to retain a "human filter" on payments before you send the cash.
      From a just a preliminary look at the transactions, this definitely has nothing to do with affiliates (or even pretend affiliates), as the buyer isn't even arriving at the sales page with an affiliate ID.

      I'm asking for more info from Dr. Mani, but if these sales are not legitimate, they may very well be from someone who is testing stolen cards.

      Someone like this doesn't want the product. They won't even click the link on your download page. All they are interested in, is to see if the credit card transaction will get by any fraud filters (particularly to see if the card has been reported stolen). If it does, it is safe to use the card at the local music store, or to buy a carton of cigarettes at the local WalMart.

      They are just testing the card, to see if the transaction will process. If it does, they'll use/sell the card for whatever they can get for it (I don't know the going rate for these). If it doesn't pass the test, it just goes into a nearby dumpster for weekly trash collection.

      This is a scam that ALL online sellers are exposed to, and it's caught only after the real cardholder receives their next credit card statement, and finds the unauthorized charge - or until they report the card as stolen.

      The only protection for this (that I know of) is to NOT accept credit cards, or to allow payment by legitimate Paypal account holders ONLY. The problem with that, is that you lose out on any potential sales where the buyer doesn't have (can't get) a Paypal account. Most of us opt to tolerate the chargebacks as a cost of doing business, so that we don't lose those sales.
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      Sid Hale
      Coming Soon... Rapid Action Profits (Pro)

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  • Profile picture of the author Saxydez
    What I believe would be best is to wait it out and see. Also There are lot of Affiliate marketers(spammers) that use Stolen Credit Cards wishing to receive real affiliated progress.
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  • Profile picture of the author JCorp
    Don't you just hate that. You can't celebrate the joy of making money because there's a chance you might be losing it in the near future. I hope it all works out in your favor at the end.
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    • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
      Hi Dr. Mani,

      thanks for bringing up this topic (and sorry to hear that you've been affected by it (potentially) too).

      I was glad to read the explanations though - so it's not necessarily the affiliate site that's the problem (I've had a bunch of cases coming through Digiresults). I've had a number of those orders (more than legitimate ones actually) over the last several months - and I'm beginning to cringe when I get a new order. I'm getting really worried about my PayPal account.

      I'm thinking about taking the ebook that's the most affected off the market and publishing it for Kindle instead...

      In all cases, the names of the orderers were different from the paypal account name they were using), and I'm trying to figure out how to prevent them from buying.

      Just got a charge back (stolen card) about six weeks after the original order

      If anyone has a solution, I'd sure love to hear about it.

      Thanks.

      Elisabeth
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      • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
        Originally Posted by globalpro View Post

        Dr. Mani,

        Like it's been said, I wouldn't worry about it for now. You contacted PayPal and made them aware if it, so that's the best bet for now. Helps protect you down the road.

        Having Sid look at things is next.

        Then, if there is a problem, I would recommend Bill and Erin's 'Ban Buyers' add on. At least then you can ensure that they won't be able to buy again.

        Thanks,

        John
        Hi John,

        where can we find Bill and Erin's 'Ban Buyers' add on???

        Thanks!

        Elisabeth
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        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          Elisabeth, that's what I ended up doing - taking down all
          those sales pages!

          The orders (not surprisingly) stopped.

          It has been over 10 weeks now since the first of these
          suspicious orders came in.

          One of them was refunded after a dispute was opened with
          PayPal claiming a stolen credit card.

          Nothing further has happened with the others... no refund,
          no chargeback, no complaint, nothing!

          Of course, not one of the emails sent to those addresses
          were replied to, which lends weight to Bryan (goldliger)'s
          suggestion above that it could be a 'test' of stolen cards
          for validity, before they are used for purchases offline.

          All success
          Dr.Mani
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