Clarification on "moving the free line" and giving things away for free

41 replies
I keep reading online about this concept. You must give away more free stuff than ever, give away free stuff to get sales, take your best thing and give it away. Give to the point that it is ludicrous.

Well, when I look at notable guru's I don't see it being put into practice.

And by free information I am talking about Good, Solid, "How To" Info.

Not things like case studies, testimonials, or podcasts of 2 people discussing case studies or testimonials, which are really designed to just build desire for the product being discussed.

Giving away this type of information is nothing new. You give away information that you cannot sell.

Of course you couldn't sell something like...

"Who Else Wants To Listen to How My Friend Tom Made $7000 in Only 7 Days With My Product?" Only $6.95 for the podcast.

I listed to a conference call with Matt Furey where he was asked about this concept of "move the free line" and he laughed - said "I guess you can sell some things that way, but the way I do it sells 10-20 times more."

Eben Pagan talks about this a lot, but where on doubleyourdating.com site is this being used?

Yes, like everyone, you are offered someting free in exchange for your contact information, but that is nothing new. After that, where is all the free "How To" information?

And, having product offers for free, just pay the s/h costs or just try out my monthly newsletter, doesn't count either.

This is not moving the free line, this is constructing an offer to qualify people into groups of buyers and groups of freebie seekers. As well as getting them into a continuity plan.

Qualifying your prospects was always a standard taught for direct marketing. If you are going to give away things for free, it is important that you give this free stuff to only qualified leads who are proven to be buyers.

There are many gurus whos mailing lists I am on, and none fo them gives away Free "How To" info. Most of the time they just send links to affiliate products or the one of their own products.

I would love to hear comments about this.
#free stuff #give away #misunderstood #move the free line #overrated
  • Profile picture of the author artwebster
    I was just assailed by seven emails on this subject this morning.

    All got deleted.

    The worst 'free stuff' I see offered with monotonous regularity is 'private phone calls in which roogoogooroo spills the beans!

    Yeah, right! A private phone call that just happened to get accidentally recorded and distributed. Isn't that illegal?
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    Some old school smarts would help - and here's to Rob Toth for his help. Bloody good stuff, even the freebies!

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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Mizel
    Subscribe to Eben's free DYD newsletter and you'll get more usable content than many paid dating products give you for $50 or $100. He's got so many examples of things that work, it'll make your head spin.

    I learned so much from those, I ended up spending over $800 with him on nearly everything else he sells. In fact, I'm still a member of his CD of the month club, and have been for over two years.

    Next time he releases his Altitude course, take a look at the promo videos on free-line content to learn how to do it correctly. How-to stuff is everywhere for free already, just look at YouTube for detailed info on "how to do" just about anything from rebuilding a carburator to setting up an autoresponder.

    It's about selling knowledge and strategy, not the nuts and bolts (those you give away). And since you are asking, understand this: case studies and success stories ARE content that many people will pay for.

    Just because the "gurus" you subscribe to don't do it, doesn't mean it isn't being done. In fact, if you aren't seeing it in your niche, now's your chance

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    • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post

      Just because the "gurus" you subscribe to don't do it, doesn't mean it isn't being done. In fact, if you aren't seeing it in your niche, now's your chance
      Jonathan,

      Will you stop giving away those golden nuggets? ;-)

      John
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Hi,

      I respect your opinion for what you've done in this business. However, many of the gurus I was referring to were gurus in Eben Pagan's that circle...nobody who you haven't heard of. The ones who bombard you with emails whenever one of them is doing a launch.

      I am on the DYD newsletter, as I wanted to see eben's work in action. (I'm married so I'm not going to buy any of the products). And, I do see a lot of "What" information..."What you need to do is..., What I did was...

      But not a lot of "how to". It's interesting reading if you are a prospect of his. Very interesting stories. But that's what I content sells more anyway.

      Not Free, "How To", teaching info...but stories and info that raise desire in the prospect by restating what the benefits of becoming a customer will be

      I would find it amazing that anyone who pay to hear a success story.

      I know the late Corey Rudl started one of the first websites that dealt with paying for case studies and success stories - secrets of their success, but that was about asking questions about exactly what these people did and how they implemented things so the people listening can copy or use the information for their own web businesses.

      If it's two people sitting together on a couch talking how they used such and such strategy and it made them $5000 in 24 hours, that isn't useable info. It's interesting and exciting to watch if you are interested in the product, but not useable.

      I have found in my niche that when I give away free info...I get a lot of "thank you's" compliments, etc...even questions for some more info and very little sales.

      When I don't give away any How To Info free, I get many more complaints (you only want to sell stuff, you don't give any free tips, you write useless spam) but I get more sales.

      There are a ton of other marketers who make a ton of money online and do not advocate giving away a ludicrous amount of info for free.

      Something for free to get a lead, yes. anything more than that, no.

      Also, with all the free info, like you menitoned on you tube, what if it makes it better for the people who charge for information. The theory goes, as I'm sure you know, people value something if they pay for it.

      There is a great report on this by Brian Clark of teachingsells.com Another person who contends that people stop giving away everything for free and start charging people for your knowledge and info.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post


      It's about selling knowledge and strategy, not the nuts and bolts (those you give away).

      Jonathan
      I don't know if you will see this - I don't know how to send a personal email from the warrior forum... but this statement you made has been circling in my head for some time now...can you expand on this?

      what do you mean by "nuts and bolts"?
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post


      It's about selling knowledge and strategy, not the nuts and bolts (those you give away).

      Jonathan
      I am hoping for Jonathan Mizel to see this to respond to it, but being fairly new to the warrior forum I am not sure if there is a way to send to him directly.

      This statement has been floating in my head since I read it - ya know, one of those things that you read and you know it makes sense, but you're hoping for some more clarification from the writer to see exactly, what he meant. - and I was hoping for more clarification on it.
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      • Profile picture of the author CaptainHavok
        Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

        I am hoping for Jonathan Mizel to see this to respond to it, but being fairly new to the warrior forum I am not sure if there is a way to send to him directly.

        This statement has been floating in my head since I read it - ya know, one of those things that you read and you know it makes sense, but you're hoping for some more clarification from the writer to see exactly, what he meant. - and I was hoping for more clarification on it.

        as i understand it the definition of "nuts and bolts" means the very basic of knowlege, the "how to" information. thats what ive thought all this time anyway, not that i am the most valuable source on the topic maybe, given the fact that im form sweden and all but i hope it helps clear things up
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  • Profile picture of the author JayMartins
    jamawebinc, did you even research this subject before ranting on it?

    What a load of rubbish. Eben gives away TONS.
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  • Profile picture of the author lexilexi
    The biggest, most profitable companies on the internet are basically the ones who give away the biggest, the most useful, the best services and the highest value.

    Take a look at Google, plentyoffish, Eben Pagan, flickr, youtube, wikipedia. Moving the free line is the big reason why these companies have trumped the others.

    In most online arenas you need exposure, popularity and rapport before you can make profit. Giving stuff away is the best way to do this - but most people have a big problem with it, they fear that if they give too much away, they will be... well, giving too much away.

    I was like this too. And then I noticed that out of all my campaigns, the ones that did the best were the ones connected to the biggest giveaways.

    It ties in with one of the most critical parts of the entrepreneur mindset - which is that it is about your customers, not you. The ones who are able to get out of their own way and think about what will be of greatest benefit to others, and fully serve that, are the ones who develop the strongest rapport, and ultimately, branding.

    It's kind of a weird paradox to begin with. The best thing to do is try it.
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  • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
    I got a free sample mailed to my house from Gelette razor when I was 18.

    Years later, I'm stilling using the same brand...

    Its very common to give out free samples of your product in the real world.

    Masters of information marketing, publishing, and selling, also give out free samples because they know there stuff works.
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  • Profile picture of the author lexilexi
    I think it's more about exposure than ever before. It's kinda crazy in a way. We have more ways to reach people than ever - but then, so does everyone else.

    But I still think that if you can give away something that is actually cool, and not just a thinly disguised bait-and-switch, you'll have a huge advantage because most people either don't have something truly cool to give away, or they can't bring themselves to do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I subscribed to Double-Your-Dating for awhile. The email
    follow-up is really high quality. I wasn't looking for dating
    methods but I was curious about his marketing so I
    didn't implement anything there.

    Here's how it works, you give people a "taste" - and yeah,
    they could go out and apply it. But truth-be-told a very
    small percentage of people will "self start" with limited
    information - of course this is essential for military officers
    , firefighters, and ER doctors but outside of crisis fields
    it isn't taught.

    ... and most people are actually AFRAID to implement
    anything unless they feel SECURITY around their level
    of confidence.

    Is Pagan selling pick-up tricks? I don't think so. He is
    selling the opportunity to be CONFIDENT one has the
    information to go into unknown dating situations and
    have a chance of success. When people see the email
    information is good they buy the $97 course or whatever,
    "just to be sure I have the information I need..."

    ______________________________


    At some point you just have to charge for your help though -
    it just depends on how your business is set up. I've
    gotten sick of people calling me acting like they want
    copywriting but really they just want free strategy
    advice. Gary Halbert would tell these guys to send
    him a $500 check written to the Children's Hospital and
    then after he got it he would "brainstorm" with them...
    they usually just vanished.

    Marlon Sanders doesn't give his products away as
    far as I know, but he seems to do ok. I write reports
    and things to give away to show people how my stuff
    works, but since I often sell some form of license to
    make money... well, every dude on the street is looking
    for an opportunity with no downside. You can't make
    money selling licenses if you let people "test it out"
    to see if they can make money at it. If they cannot
    pay they cannot play, period - so it depends on what
    you do.

    I'm a fan of Christoper Howard, a NLP-type guy who
    does free 3-day seminars in N. America and AU. The
    seminars are a lot of fun and you can get a lot out
    of them... and they cost his compnay a great deal
    to put on - but they make so much money on advanced
    seminar sales and info-products it seems to be working.
    Pagan was at the last one I attended in L.A., if that
    tells you anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      I'm not sure I agree with the reference on how sites like google, wikipedia, youtube, etc have trumped the others.

      wikipedia is non profit, The people who started Youtube made money by selling it to google, who If I'm not mistaken is still looking how to profit with it.

      But these sites are totally different than a small business selling information products.

      Or any site really selling any hard product. Many of these sites have venture capitalists given them huge amounts of money as investments. I'm not sure about this either, but has facebook turned a profit yet?

      As far as the technique of sampling, sure that's a proven method. But who are you sampling to?

      Take the food court of a mall for example. Sometimes you have girls holding a plate of samples with toothpicks in them. They give you a bite size piece to sample in the hopes that you like it and will order food from their store (can't really call it a restaurant).

      The 2 points I want to make are...where they are giving out the sample and how much they are giving out.

      They do not stand with a plate of food at say, the entrance to the mall, or in front of a department store. They stand with a plate of food where the hungry people are - the food court. Because they have qualified themselves as hungry by going into the food court.

      And, they give you 1 bite of food. They don't give you a free meal, they give you 1 bite. If they gave you a free meal, you wouldn't need them anymore.

      Most people give away something to get a lead, but the idea of continually giving away valuable info which you could charge for, in the hope of finally getting people to like and trust you, does not seem like a good strategy.

      I remember listening to a webinar with Jim Edwards where he talks about how he used to have a certain website with tons of free information on it.

      The sales were horrible. Then he took all the free info down, make a simple salesletter, and sales took off. He concentrated on making sales and not trying to be everyones friend and getting them to like him.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Misunderstood? Obviously.

        Overrated? I don't think so...

        I think the key is to look at the scale of what you offer.

        Pagan, Kern, Reese, the Stompernet guys, they all gave away a lot of information that was usable if you had any kind of background. They gave away content that was better than many of the $27 - $97 ebooks I've purchased.

        They were also trying to funnel people into a seriously high-ticket back end product. Usually with a pricey continuity offer to go with it.

        Here's an example in the "real" world...

        There's a company that makes high-quality cast nets for catching bait for fishing. These nets sell for around $200 each. More than one company sells quality nets, and almost all of them sell a video showing you how to throw the net (there is some technique involved).

        When online video first became practical, this first company put the video it continues to sell on their website - for free. If you knew about the video, you could learn to throw a net for free - regardless of whose net you bought.

        The video also had how-to instruction on how to care for the net to make it last.

        Woven throughout the video footage was content that showed why this company's net was superior - materials, construction, etc. The benefit of all that was that this company's net was just plain easier to use.

        That video sold a bunch of cast nets at premium prices. Surprisingly, it also sold a bunch of physical videos.

        Nowadays, you can find 'how to throw a cast net' videos all over the net. Back then, one net company moved the free line and secured a leadership position in their market. Oh, and they made a bunch of money selling nets. They still see no need to discount their product .

        In my mind, 'moving the free line' is about giving away your best stuff - just not all of it. It's about, if you're going to give something away, make it as good as the stuff you intend to sell, not some watered down come-on.

        One thing you are correct on, though, is that no sane marketer gives stuff away for the sake of giving it away. If the giveaway does not serve a business purpose, it's charity. And most entrepreneurs are running profit-driven businesses, not charities.
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        • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Misunderstood? Obviously.

          Here's an example in the "real" world...

          There's a company that makes high-quality cast nets for catching bait for fishing. These nets sell for around $200 each. More than one company sells quality nets, and almost all of them sell a video showing you how to throw the net (there is some technique involved).

          When online video first became practical, this first company put the video it continues to sell on their website - for free. If you knew about the video, you could learn to throw a net for free - regardless of whose net you bought.

          The video also had how-to instruction on how to care for the net to make it last.

          Woven throughout the video footage was content that showed why this company's net was superior - materials, construction, etc. The benefit of all that was that this company's net was just plain easier to use.

          That video sold a bunch of cast nets at premium prices. Surprisingly, it also sold a bunch of physical videos.

          Nowadays, you can find 'how to throw a cast net' videos all over the net. Back then, one net company moved the free line and secured a leadership position in their market. Oh, and they made a bunch of money selling nets. They still see no need to discount their product .

          In my mind, 'moving the free line' is about giving away your best stuff - just not all of it. It's about, if you're going to give something away, make it as good as the stuff you intend to sell, not some watered down come-on.

          One thing you are correct on, though, is that no sane marketer gives stuff away for the sake of giving it away. If the giveaway does not serve a business purpose, it's charity. And most entrepreneurs are running profit-driven businesses, not charities.
          You made a great point here and I wanted to comment on it, just never got around to it.

          The thing is...what if the company was not selling nets and their product was the how to info like "how to cast a net"?

          If your product is "how to do something" you can't give away "how to do something" or you give away your product.
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          • Profile picture of the author futuredan
            Have you seen the videos on Eben's Guru Mastermind blog? Google it and sign up to be let in.

            Incredible value, and made me want to subscribe to the course straight away. Also made me buy Altitude without thinking twice. That is how moving the free line works!
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            • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
              Originally Posted by futuredan View Post

              Have you seen the videos on Eben's Guru Mastermind blog? Google it and sign up to be let in.

              Incredible value, and made me want to subscribe to the course straight away. Also made me buy Altitude without thinking twice. That is how moving the free line works!
              No, actually I have not had the time to look at this yet.

              I was referring more to his doubleyourdating.com site.

              I will look at that site though.

              Is the material "How To?" Info or is it desire building info like people telling of their incredible results?

              Or is the Material "What?" info -- like telling you what you need to do to become successful, but now telling you "How?" to do it. The equivalent of giving the floorplan, but not the blueprint.

              Just asking.
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              • Profile picture of the author futuredan
                Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

                No, actually I have not had the time to look at this yet.

                I was referring more to his doubleyourdating.com site.

                I will look at that site though.

                Is the material "How To?" Info or is it desire building info like people telling of their incredible results?

                Or is the Material "What?" info -- like telling you what you need to do to become successful, but now telling you "How?" to do it. The equivalent of giving the floorplan, but not the blueprint.

                Just asking.
                He clearly lays out structures and plans that if followed would make you a lot of money. He doesn't say 'use this piece of software' but he tells you certain changes he made in his business that made him huge amounts of money.

                He also looks at some mindset and business principles that will make a huge difference to your long-term success. Really, watch the "Blueprint for a Successful Information Business..." video, you can't help to get something out of it. And it's free.

                At the end of the day, Eben now has mulitiple niches using the free line principles, and a 25mm a year business, so I'd say it works
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

            You made a great point here and I wanted to comment on it, just never got around to it.

            The thing is...what if the company was not selling nets and their product was the how to info like "how to cast a net"?

            If your product is "how to do something" you can't give away "how to do something" or you give away your product.
            That's true, IF your only product is a "how to throw a cast net" info product.

            If that's true, then you can look at giving away related information. In this example, it might be short articles or videos on:

            > What baits to use for which fish
            > How to rig the baits for best results
            > How to keep your baits alive after you net them
            > How to care for your net so it lasts
            > How to choose a good net in the first place
            > Where to look for various baits and how to attract them

            The side benefit of giving away all of this related info is that some of them will be more popular than others. If you know the kind of information your market wants, via their response to the free stuff, you up the odds on creating additional, profitable paid products.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Move the free line is a good marketing term that really doesn't have a definition.

    It means what ever the person using it want it to mean.

    Moving the Free line to one company could be emailing a PDF of a hard cover book. To another company it could be access to a members only site with special offers.

    But is that really moving the free line?

    Nope notta, not even close.

    Moving the free line is not only hard to define, its impossible to define.

    You can't move free, no matter what is attached to it, it is still free.

    Sampling and the free line isn't the same thing.

    Denny's gave away a HUGE number of Free Grand Slam Breakfasts, but that didn't move the free line one inch.

    Library offer free books, even book sets that cost in the thousands of dollars are available at the library, but does that move the free line of that book set?

    I would say not.

    Moving The Free Line reminds me of the line of a comedian:
    NO matter where I go, when I get there I'm already there.

    With many calling for change, and getting all excited that change is happening, it leads me to think that the concept of improvement is lost.

    Moving The Free Line to me is just Change, Not improvement.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author ArthurRose
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      How I understood moving the free line - it simply meant taking the line of all your information...I'll try to make a simple diagram here...


      Free Stuff

      ----------------------------

      Paid for stuff

      Move the free line meant to move that line down a little more so some stuff that you used to charge for now becomes free too.

      That seems easy enough to understand, and I get that part...

      Now, the problem comes in when you add in...KEEP GIVING free stuff after someone already signs up for your mailing list/newsletter etc.

      Give and give and give until it's ridiculous is sometimes used.

      And I understand the point too...Because people will be floored by your free info, you immediately gain trust, and then they think to themselves "If this is the free info, imagine what the paid info is like"

      In my experience, maybe it's my market, this only conditions the people on your list to expect and want more stuff for free.

      I've found I get the most sales by sending out emails with time limited bonuses, and time limited coupons for discounts. 20% percent off for the next 20 people to order, etc.

      I want to mention 2 names now.

      1) Mike Filsaime.

      His emails, his followup with people that he got on his list by giving a freebie...
      contain NO content. It is all advertisements. Either for his own products or affiliates

      2) Armand Morin.

      His email followups (i believe he gives you 10 straight days and this is not more "how to" info but expanding on bonuses you will get if you buy his stuff.

      2 examples of people who don't just keep giving away free content.

      They give once to get you on their list and that's it...then you must buy to get more.

      And they are pretty successful and well known.

      A little confusing though since Mike Filsaime seems to be good friends with people like Eben Pagan and Frank Kern who advocate giving away a ton of free stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
        Here is an easy solution to your problem...

        Unsubscribe from all of the junk you are getting and start digging deeper
        for the valuable stuff. Here is one site that offers great Free Info on PPC

        [EDIT]
        http://cashtactics.net/ Take a look at their FREE case study course.

        That is one of hundreds of sites/people that offer great info for free.

        Get out of the Ocean and start fishing the trout streams.
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        • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
          Originally Posted by The IM Reporter View Post

          Here is an easy solution to your problem...

          Unsubscribe from all of the junk you are getting and start digging deeper
          for the valuable stuff. Here is one site that offers great Free Info on PPC

          cashtactics.com Take a look at their FREE case study course.

          That is one of hundreds of sites/people that offer great info for free.

          Get out of the Ocean and start fishing the trout streams.
          cashtactics.com seems to be just a parked page...
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        • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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          There's nothing wrong with "Moving The Free Line." It's a sound and effective concept. Like Jonathan mentioned if you watch the videos Eben Pegan puts out for GetAltitude and GruruMastermind you'll see there's a tremendous amount of free and valuable information.

          And that's a good example of "Moving The Free Line."

          I agree that some people/marketers may misunderstand the concept and misapply it. But that doesn't mean that it's not effective in the same way that mathematics is still sound even though some people arrive at 5 when they multiply 2 by 2.

          By the way moving the free line means moving the free line. It's a vertical line you have which separates your free content from your paid content.
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          • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
            Originally Posted by ZigZag View Post


            By the way moving the free line means moving the free line. It's a vertical line you have which separates your free content from your paid content.
            Look at my post a little ways up...I drew exactly what you said, but I made the line horizontal not vertical...

            The line is moved towards the pay stuff a little so some of the stuff that was just on the other side of the line and used to be "Pay For Stuff" is now on the "Free Stuff" side.

            However, what I am saying is that there are a whole group of marketers, very well known ones, who do not subscribe to the theory of getting sales by giving your prospects a bunch of cool stuff. 2 of them are the ones I mentioned.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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              Originally Posted by jamawebinc View Post

              Look at my post a little ways up...I drew exactly what you said, but I made the line horizontal not vertical...

              The line is moved towards the pay stuff a little so some of the stuff that was just on the other side of the line and used to be "Pay For Stuff" is now on the "Free Stuff" side.
              Yeah I noticed that just after I posted. Great explanation.
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  • Profile picture of the author quiescen
    Google makes most of its money off of advertising. They don't give away free advertising but make it so low priced initially that anyone interested in giving it a try will do so.

    Desire + Offer = Sales
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  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
    I was talking with a friend about this just the other day, and it made me think of this:

    I was at the mall a few weeks ago, and I walked by a chocolate shop... one where they make everything from scratch, you can see them making it too... the smell was amazing, and then I spotted some free samples...

    I turned right around and went to grab my free sample of fudge... hell, I would have given them my email address for that little chunk of fudge!

    Then, after I tried the fudge, I felt 2 things... first feeling was - wow this is delicious (obviously), I want more, and the second was a feeling of 'reciprication' - the need to give something back for giving me that free bit of tasty fudge, so I ended up buying a small piece. I highly doubt I would have bought anything, or even walked in the store for that matter, if it weren't for those free samples.

    Jared
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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini View Post

      I was talking with a friend about this just the other day, and it made me think of this:

      I was at the mall a few weeks ago, and I walked by a chocolate shop... one where they make everything from scratch, you can see them making it too... the smell was amazing, and then I spotted some free samples...

      I turned right around and went to grab my free sample of fudge... hell, I would have given them my email address for that little chunk of fudge!

      Then, after I tried the fudge, I felt 2 things... first feeling was - wow this is delicious (obviously), I want more, and the second was a feeling of 'reciprication' - the need to give something back for giving me that free bit of tasty fudge, so I ended up buying a small piece. I highly doubt I would have bought anything, or even walked in the store for that matter, if it weren't for those free samples.

      Jared
      That's the old strategy of sampling. A great strategy, but translated to online marketing that's more like the freebie to get your email address - at least I think it is.

      It's giving a taste, just enough so you know you are hungry. And you qualified yourself by going over to them to get the fudge.

      But they only gave you a taste, not a bag full.
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  • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
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    • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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      Originally Posted by BlogBrowser View Post

      I read a very useful ebook from Jimmy Brown a while back, and he said that the key to free content is to make it "useful but incomplete". That means that you need to present your free content in such a way that your prospect LEARNS from it, but not so much that he doesn't need you anymore. Basically, you want to tickle his/her curiosity, stir his/her creative juices flowing and left him desiring for me content from you. That way he will be looking to absorb your -paid- content.

      So I guess the point is to not give free content away for the sake of it: it should be used as a bait to spark the prospect's hunger without leaving him fully satisfies. Think of free content like a -free- starter before the -paid- main course
      Good contribution BlogBrowser. That's pretty much exactly what I was about to say.

      I think moving the free line is best implemented when you have a lot of paid content to offer, have a subscriber base, and are good at hard selling. Someone mentioned DoubleYourDating and while they do give away a lot of free content for the most part while it's still valuable, it's also written in a way which leaves the customer wanting more, similar to the fudge example, and of course then they recommend their products. Clever stuff.

      So there's definitely an art in terms of overall marketing that has to be incorporated when implementing the free line concept.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bigsofty
    The entire dot com boom followed by inevitable bust was due to so many people going down the "give it away free then sell em something else, or get peeps to advertise to our hordes of freeloaders"

    The end result was people now think internet = free, which on a historical scale is right up there with the "from each his ability, to each his need" of communism. It sounds nice but I'd hate to calculate just how much damage that has done.

    We moved into the information age... and blew it. Sure, some such as Google are huge from "giving freely" but only because they dominate search and those selling have to give Google money.

    Overall I'd say despite the obvious and visible advantages this whole "free!" mindset completely misses the far larger "What we didn't get because there'd be no money in it" element.

    I talk to software engineers all the time who have great ideas - but they know the development time and costs don't add up when you consider their design would be immediately copied and bootlegged. They just can't be bothered and I don't blame them.

    I'm actually thinking of going the opposite direction with my own software and simply selling it, no demo, no trial period, no 'lite' version.

    Giving away free can certainly work in some cases but primarily because you come to get massive links and cement your place at the top of the search engines, build a brand etc. Heck, even the "give away your best stuff" line has become so well known that I'll often hesitate to buy, as I figure I've probably already got their best stuff. Why pay money for the cheap scraps left over?

    Overall I agree with the OP, this "move the free line" stuff is over-rated. Unless it's a good fit for your business, in which case the most powerful word in marketing is "free"...



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    • Profile picture of the author jamawebinc
      Originally Posted by Bigsofty View Post

      The entire dot com boom followed by inevitable bust was due to so many people going down the "give it away free then sell em something else, or get peeps to advertise to our hordes of freeloaders"

      The end result was people now think internet = free, which on a historical scale is right up there with the "from each his ability, to each his need" of communism. It sounds nice but I'd hate to calculate just how much damage that has done.
      I agree totally.

      Yes...the whole..."we'll figure out how to monetize later." After the venture capitlists stopped giving these companies money - away they went.

      It cultivates an internet culture of freeloaders. One that, even at the slightest hint that you have something to sell are so offended that you want them to actually buy something.

      I walked past a barnes and noble and said..."How dare they charge for books? Shouldn't all the information be free...especially information that helps people"

      I hope my sarcasm can be felt

      And like I said...I have heard this advice being given, but sometimes the same people giving the advice do not follow it themselves in their actions.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        I don't remember Filsaime or Morin ever advocating the 'free line' philosophy. Over a year after I sampled Filsaime's program, I'm still getting phone calls from his "coaches".

        Different strokes for different folks.

        As for DYD, I signed up for the follow up series even though I don't anticipate ever joining his target market (been happily married for 27 years). "David DeAngelo" gives out a ton of free info, every bit of it cleverly written to hone desire for the paid products. From the glimpse of Eben Pagan's condo and office in one of his videos, it works very well.

        Going back over a few things, yes, a lot of people who follow this advocate giving away a taste of your best stuff. It's sampling on a grander scale.

        Pagan, Kern, Stompernet, et.al. gave away a heck of a lot of stuff, but only because they had a massive amount of additional material behind closed doors. It seems to have worked for them.

        If your own experience tells you it doesn't work as well for your particular market/product mix, you should not use it.

        So going back to your original subject line, I don't think 'moving the free line' is overrated, just not universal. I definitely think it's misunderstood by many, though...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
      Originally Posted by Bigsofty View Post

      I'm actually thinking of going the opposite direction with my own software and simply selling it, no demo, no trial period, no 'lite' version.
      Bad idea IMO...

      I've tried this, and guess what, it doesn't work (for me and my experiences anyways, with my software(s) that I have tested this theory with). All the power to you though, if you want to try and sell your software with 'no demo', 'no trial version', 'no lite version' I sure hope you get better results than my experiences.

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  • Profile picture of the author drkellogs
    Moving the free line is about giving some of your very best, actionable content, instant-gratification based technique.

    Why?

    Because you're trying to create proof, that your stuff works. One of the strongest form of proof, is the customer experiencing some form of tangible positive result (or leads him to a deep inner realization) which brings him closer to his ultimate wanted goal.

    So that he sells himself on the credibility & caliber of the material you offer. Putting him in an extremely receptive state to anything else you ever release.

    ESPECIALLY, your paid content being categorized in his mind as being particularly EXTREMELY high value as he will automatically and NATURALLY perceive it as being of high-value, and we all know what the benefits of having a high perceived value offer can do for a businesss

    Which helps justify the high ticket item you will be charging with less resistance. Positions you as a true expert (above and beyond the others in the marketplace) without the shadow of a doubt (because of the undeniable proof the client has had). Just to name a few of the things that I am consciously aware of.

    The technique does not bring the customer ALL the way to his ultimate goal, but it brings him closer. The same way a body language trick, or any clever get her phone number in 3 minutes technique, would provide undeniable proof yet would never in a million years give you any long-term success in dating. There is a whole set of systems, that is behind these techniques, and used in context, these techniques are 10x more powerful.

    Only strategy/systems of thinking/behavior can do that.

    The nuts & bolts, or techniques, work 10x better when they are used as part of a bigger system of techniques where each part has its place, and when you understand the nuances of why/when/how to use it.

    Moving the free line, assumes that you do have a system. If the technique is your whole system, then it obviously doesn't make sense.

    This stuff only works if your product is of REALLY high-quality. Which is part of Eben's ultimate goal, to empower the teachers who are the real deal, to teach and empower others through the Internet, as this is a component part of his bigger vision.

    If you sell crap, this stuff does not work. Because the technique you will give away will be crap, hence will not build bond, and will NOT create proof that your stuff works, and is counter-productive in this case.

    Most people doing free-line do NOT "get" the whole psychology behind it. They think it's about offering a cheap freebie to get customers to bite.

    It's about integrity. And offering value. Standing behind your material with confidence. And having a strategy behind it to monetize correctly.

    As a side-note, I used to be a customer of Eben's several years ago. Way before I ever got into online marketing or knew anything about marketing or psychology. I must have been signed-up to his newsletters for a couple months at least.

    And I distinctly remember having this conversation in my head... "Wow, if this is the stuff he's giving away for free... the paid stuff must be crazy good".

    I ended up spending over 1000$ with him over the years, I should mention at a time when I was earning less than 700$ / 2 weeks. So it was a small fortune for me at the time.

    About his DYD newsletters. When you judge value, you must judge it from the perspective of the customer. Not from a marketer's stand-point or an outsider. And that is very difficult to do, if you are not in the target market segment.

    I hope this clears up some of the confusion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard N Adams
    Based on my own experience as a *consumer* and potential customer rather than as a business owner I have experienced a lot of people recently giving away so much stuff to convince you to buy their ebook, join their membership site etc. that when you *do* finally cough up the money there's actually nothing much there left of any value for them to tell you.

    I have had several situations where I have finally given in and joined a members site to literally ask for a refund within minutes because there is basically nothing of any value in the thing they're trying to sell. They got so obsessed with "moving the freeline" that they actually gave away *everything* they had to say!

    Infact, in these cases I felt so "had" that I actually wouldn't buy from those inidividuals again in the future so doing this has *reduced* the effectiveness of their marketing on me in the future.

    Be aware of this - or you might increase your sales only to increase your refund rate a proportional amount.

    All the best,
    Richard
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  • Profile picture of the author rahulc123
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      I think that there's a fundamental point about "moving the free line" that drkellogs mentioned that I'm not convinced everyone saw:

      "The technique does not bring the customer ALL the way to his ultimate goal, but it brings him closer."

      So the $47.00-$97.00 lead product now becomes free to get MORE prospects into the funnel with less resistance to prove you know what you're talking about and to sell more of your high-end product.

      DYD may not be "moving their free line" on the dating product by giving away their lead product, but there could be many reasons for that.

      1) They started out much earlier and have a large affiliate base they'd piss off if suddenly they started doing that so it probably makes no economic sense to do that.
      2) At one time they were paying 150% commission (maybe more) on their lead product so they're funnel "as-is" is likely working just fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author IMChick
      Originally Posted by rahulc123 View Post

      Hi guys,
      I am an Independent Business owner,
      Any body want to be like me?
      You can be the boss for yourself.
      You can be the owner for the business.
      Your life. Your business. Your way.

      Message me if any of you interested.

      Thank you

      FORUM TROLL SPOTTED HERE.

      This guy is posting the same nonsense text in a series of spam posts throughout the forum today. Please take a few seconds to do your bit to report this post and clean up the WF. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tyler Ellison
    It's a delicate balance that can only be perfected by testing.

    Giving away free stuff works magic in some niches and thuds on the floor in others. People still gotta make money so I still believe the best information should only be paid for.
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