Is this what it takes?

28 replies
In 2004, I got my first whiff of the internet marketing world and have been hooked ever since. For the first 5 years all I did was buy products, read them and take no action.

That changed in 2009 when I finally decided to DO SOMETHING and create my own eBook in the dating niche. It was the perfect niche for me because I had a really great "zero to hero" story in that area of my life.

Long story short, it took two years to write the damn thing. Why so long?

- I work a 9-5 job as I don't have enough money coming in from IM to live off of.
- I've had multiple people laugh at me, put me down and say IM just doesn't work (i.e. it's all scams, BS, lies etc.)
- I kept doubting myself thinking no one would ever buy anything from me.
- I was scared that once I launched the book, everyone would think it sucks and would ask for a refund, so I kept trying to add more value.
- I have to do EVERYTHING myself. (I know you will say outsource, but this NEVER works out well, see more on this below.)

Finally, in early 2011 my book was finished and I was ready to start selling it. I thought the toughest part was behind me, but I had never been so wrong in my life.

Here are some of the struggles I had:

1. Getting an E-cover

They say you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I know most people do. So I wanted my ecover to be top notch.

I approached a designer, paid $147 for a high quality ecover and it looked like crap. At first I tried to get a refund, but he argued that he spent time on it and would only refund part of the money. I went to another designer and tried again, but I got an even worse looking design. I soon discovered that paying for bad designs would just be part of the "cost of doing business".

I repeated this process SIX times before I finally found a designer that delivered exactly what I wanted. It cost a mint but I was so happy with the result, I paid him a little extra because he had put so much time into it.

2. Getting a Copywriter.

This was the biggest disaster ever. The first guy I hired, (a well known warrior) took my money, and promised the letter in 3 weeks. The deadline came and went and all my emails went unanswered. Having dismissed this guy as a scammer who took my money and ran, 3 months later he sent me the letter. Despite having written several pages detailing exactly what I wanted the letter to convey, it was the worst piece of copy I'd ever seen.


I then hired a second copywriter who was even more famous and more expensive and his letter was equally horrible - although at least he delivered it on time.

I wrote my own sales letter, showed it to the 2nd copywriter and he was so impressed he offered me a job to write copy for him.

I declined. I wanted to focus my time on my own product, not working for someone else.

After a few more months of tweaking, I finished writing my own sales letter, put it up, drove 200 visitors using Google Adwords and didn't make one sale.

Then I enlisted the help of another warrior who was a copywriter and hired him to do a critique of my sales letter. This was the first guy that actually blew me away and actually provided more value than what I paid for.

I took his advice, and implemented 90% of the changes he recommended.

This led to several more months of tweaking, refining and editing my copy. Finally, I had (what I thought) was a top notch sales page. I showed it to this new guy and he was blown away.

But I wasn't satisfied there. I asked him to "tighten it up" and make it even better. That cost a pretty penny and while he did make a few changes, they weren't all that great. However I took what he did and tweaked it myself to make it my own.

And that's the version that I have today.

There was just 1 thing missing:

3. Testimonials.

Almost everyone I spoke to about this said I should just fake them. That is, just write them myself. I really didn't want to do this. I wanted to be as honest in my business as possible. I refused and went out and contacted a bunch of guys to test out my material.

This took forever. For every 20 guys I emailed (who all happily agreed to take a look at my book for free), only 1 wrote back with some feedback. And this was only after numerous follow-up emails begging and pleading them to send me their feedback. I even provided them with questions to make it easier.

I sent my book to over 200 guys for free. Most didn't respond, some said they were sick and would try out the material later. Others said everything looked good and that they'd get back to me in a week or two - which they never did. In the end I got 8 genuine testimonials from guys who loved the product.

I wanted 10, but I settled for 8. At least they were real. Now I just needed some traffic. That led me to:

4. Google AdWords

The first day, I made a sale using AdWords. It was great. Until a few days later when Google banned my account. They said my page violated their advertising policies. I asked them why and they said my page was unrealistic and made exaggerated claims.

- I told them the screenshots of my results were real, not faked or photoshopped. (Which is true.)
- I told them my testimonials were from REAL people, not faked or written by me. (Also true.)
- I told them I offered a "get results or your money back" guarantee. (Which I adhere to.)
- I told them I offer a 60 day refund policy with no strings attached. (Again, which I adhere to.)

I went out of my way NOT to fake any of this stuff, but seems as if that didn't make a difference at all.

Google still said I was in violation of their policy. I've heard many others say that AdWords is not worth it, so they don't even bother with them anymore. Although I must say Google is strange because if you type the name of my product into Google, my site comes up first in the organic search results. (So I can't pay them to advertise my site, but they will list it for free?)

Then I decided to try:

5. Facebook Ads

I thought this would be real quick and easy.

Nope.

No matter what I do, my ads always get disapproved. I've changed the title, the picture, the ad text -nothing seems to work. I tried using stock images that I bought the rights to. I tried using images that I created myself. I tried putting the exactly title of my page in the ad - absolutely nothing works.

I figured I would just email them to ask what I'm doing wrong, but apparently Facebook doesn't offer support of any kind. No phone number, no email address. Wow.

So that brings me to now. I did a VERY small launch in October 2011 (more to test things out than anything), and I made 10 sales.

Unfortunately, I've also had 2 refunds.

This is very discouraging to me.

- I know no one cares that I spent 3 years working on this.
- I know I can't please everyone and there will always be someone who isn't happy.
- I know refunds are just part of running a business and I shouldn't get upset.
- I know there are people out there who just refund everything they buy to get it for free.
- I know my product may not work for everyone despite how hard I've worked on it.
- I know there are infinite variables when it comes to someone's success with women & dating.
- I know I have no way of knowing if those two guys actually read my book at all & took action.

I know all that.

I'm just so tired of working so hard and not getting anywhere.

To those who are already successful online - is this really what it takes?
#takes
  • Profile picture of the author JennSpencerIM
    Wow that seems like a LOT of work over a LONG period of time. The one thing I do is work FAST. It's better to fail fast than slow. Don't make excuses either just keep going and doing. I create products and have them making me money to cover my expenses from creating it within one week. Before that, I take about 3 weeks to create the product, write up a marketing plan, etc. then I get selling right away. Next time just move a lot faster so if things don't work out, you haven't wasted three years.
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    • Profile picture of the author iva
      Feel for you, not a great experience. Have you tried to approach marketers who are already in this niche to sell the book through their lists?
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      "Ask simple questions to get simple answers"
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
        Originally Posted by iva View Post

        Feel for you, not a great experience. Have you tried to approach marketers who are already in this niche to sell the book through their lists?
        No, not yet. I don't want to approach anyone until I know my product/offer/sales page is tested and proven.

        My worst fear = getting a bunch of JVs, doing a big launch and then having a 30-40% refund rate which would make me look REALLY bad in my niche/industry etc.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveDolan
          Originally Posted by Mike Bradson View Post

          No, not yet. I don't want to approach anyone until I know my product/offer/sales page is tested and proven.

          My worst fear = getting a bunch of JVs, doing a big launch and then having a 30-40% refund rate which would make me look REALLY bad in my niche/industry etc.
          Mike just get it out there. Don't worry about refund rates etc. Believe in your product and push it as hard as you can.

          Have you tried joining dating forums and building up a reputation so that you can market your ebook?

          Yahoo answers is another good route to go. Help by answering some of the dating questions and pointing back to your sales page.

          Yet anotherangle may be to sell it as PLR to IM'ers in the same niche - perhaps a test launch in the WSO forum would be a way to go here.
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      • Profile picture of the author ScottLindsay
        Hi Mike:

        I have been in internet marketing for 13 years and full time for around 10 years now with a strong 6 figure income. That may sound great, but let me tell you, I made my own mistakes along the way.

        In my first 3 years like you, I spent a lot of time and money on things that did not work and I really did not make much money. At times a felt a bit discouraged. However, I did not see it as something that would make me quit, I used those mistakes as learning experiences and moved on from there. Each time something didn't work, I learned from that what did work.

        Now, the one thing I didn't do was spend a lot of money on courses. Of course I read what I could but I never fell for the PUSH button instant success crap. None of those things work. Success online takes work no matter what anyone tells you. I then found people that were doing what I wanted to do and I emulated what they did. I do that to this day. Not buying all their courses (I buy a few when I feel that they are good though). I also didn't spend a lot of time on forums. I made up my mind to FOCUS on doing the little things everyday that would make money in the long term.

        I said all that to encourage you to learn from everything you have been through and chalk it up to a learning experience. From now on, make sure to focus on what works and then do those things everyday. You don't have to be full time to do this, but just make efforts every day to reach your goals by doing those little things.

        I really hope you do not give up.

        I hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
    Well if I were you I wouldn't look at the two returns but the eight sales that were not returned. If that was a very small launch just to test things I wouldn't take that as defeat. Did you make a profit (in terms of the cost of driving traffic)?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
      Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

      Well if I were you I wouldn't look at the two returns but the eight sales that were not returned. If that was a very small launch just to test things I wouldn't take that as defeat. Did you make a profit (in terms of the cost of driving traffic)?
      Yeah I know. I am happy about the 8 sales, however the last one came in at the end of October, so I'll have to wait until the end of December to be sure no one else returns it as my guarantee is 60 days.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vlad Romanov
    In my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, you are a perfectionist so you always try to make everything perfect and that is what delayed your project by so much. Most Internet marketers as you probably understood throw out a product that is of mediocre quality, but they dont spend time on it which means they can provide products quickly. I've seen 5 page products with poor English sell better than 50 page well written PDFs... The secret is the content, as long as the buyer is interested in the topic they won't care if you have spelling mistakes or if your sales copy isn't 100% perfect...
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
      Originally Posted by Vlad Romanov View Post

      In my opinion, correct me if I'm wrong, you are a perfectionist so you always try to make everything perfect and that is what delayed your project by so much. Most Internet marketers as you probably understood throw out a product that is of mediocre quality, but they dont spend time on it which means they can provide products quickly. I've seen 5 page products with poor English sell better than 50 page well written PDFs... The secret is the content, as long as the buyer is interested in the topic they won't care if you have spelling mistakes or if your sales copy isn't 100% perfect...
      You are absolutely right.

      When writing my book, I'd look at a page and say: "That's crap." And then I'd rewrite it several times until it flowed better. I was obsessed with creating something that WASN'T boring and that actually provided value. I did this for 200+ pages and as you can guess, that took time.

      But all that's done now and I'm happy with the end result.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vlad Romanov
        Originally Posted by Mike Bradson View Post

        You are absolutely right.

        When writing my book, I'd look at a page and say: "That's crap." And then I'd rewrite it several times until it flowed better. I was obsessed with creating something that WASN'T boring and that actually provided value. I did this for 200+ pages and as you can guess, that took time.

        But all that's done now and I'm happy with the end result.
        There is nothing wrong with wanting perfection, but I usually fall into the same pattern where I can't stop retweaking what I created always thinking I can make it better. I realized that it takes way too much time and I try to limit myself with time. In other words I will decide in advance how much I should spend on a particular task and no matter how perfect the end result is I stick to it.
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        • Profile picture of the author shane_k
          Originally Posted by Vlad Romanov View Post

          There is nothing wrong with wanting perfection,

          There is when perfection become a problem that stops you from taking action, or you use perfection as something to hide behind.


          This or was the op's case. His perfectionism is allowing him to avoid being possibly rejected. so he keeps re-tweeking again and again.


          At some point you just have to stop and put the product out there.


          He is at that point now which is good, but again he is still too focused on the rejection.


          Instead of focusing in on the 2 refunds he should focus on the 8 sales. and instead of focusing on a 30% - 40% possible refund rate, which he has no way of knowing will happen, he should focus on possible sales he and his JV parters could make.

          if you focus on everything that might go wrong then you are going to stress the living hell out of yourself, and you are not going to make any progress.

          Focus on what you are doing right, and focus on what could go right!

          shane_k
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      • Profile picture of the author ScottLindsay
        Originally Posted by Mike Bradson View Post

        You are absolutely right.

        When writing my book, I'd look at a page and say: "That's crap." And then I'd rewrite it several times until it flowed better. I was obsessed with creating something that WASN'T boring and that actually provided value. I did this for 200+ pages and as you can guess, that took time.

        But all that's done now and I'm happy with the end result.
        Mike:

        I should have replied to this first.

        It is great to try to put out the best product possible and you should do that. I tend to be like that but I learned that you cannot do that when creating these types of projects.

        I try to get things as perfect as I can but I set time limits. When creating a product set a date to have it complete. Make sure that you force yourself to stay in that time frame. This will help you to get things done much faster.

        Also, once you complete something, have people you trust review it and give you their HONEST opinion. Maybe give away some samples, have people review it and give you their testimony about the product. That way you do not have fake testimonies. It will also help you to see if there are things you need to change.

        Anyway, again I hope this helps!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
    Thanks Scott.

    Believe me, I learned pretty quickly that making a decent amount of money online takes time and work.

    I've also learned to look at failure not as failure, but as feedback. It's just feedback telling you what didn't work. I get it. But I'm just at a point where I feel exhausted.

    I'm already planning to add more value/content to my book/offer (in the form of bonuses) but I know that will take me several weeks/months to do. It's just more delays on top of an already long development time.
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    • Profile picture of the author ScottLindsay
      Your welcome Mike.

      Great to hear you are taking this perspective. This is actually most of the battle. With this outlook, I am sure you will succeed big time in the near future.

      Let me know if there is ever anything you need.
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      • Profile picture of the author YukonJack
        Mike,

        The dating niche is a strong one if you work it right. People always want to find love. However, there seems to be 1 critical flaw that I haven't heard you mention, maybe I missed it?

        Where is your list? Are you driving traffic directly to a sales page without a funnel in place? If so, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

        The first step is to give away a free report on dating, in exchange for their email address. As soon as they subscribe to your list, they are then taken to a sales page that has a 1 time offer, for 70% off your regular price. (just inflate your current price a whole bunch)

        Now, you have employed the factors that make a sale: social proof (testimonials), reciprocation (you gave them something they perceive as valuable), you haven't really overcome trust yet, but the deal will be so sweet they can't refuse, and lastly, you initiated a scarcity by making a 1 time offer (that you need to stick to)

        Now, on top of all of that, you now have their email list to slowly build their trust overtime by sending them great valuable content. Now, you can offer a "sale" on Thanksgiving and call it your "Find a soulmate in time for the Holidays Sale" for 1/2 off your jacked up price (which is still higher than the price you are selling it for now)

        Then once this "funnel" is built, then work on driving traffic to your free offer and not your $ offer.
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        • Profile picture of the author x-stream
          Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post

          Mike,

          The dating niche is a strong one if you work it right. People always want to find love. However, there seems to be 1 critical flaw that I haven't heard you mention, maybe I missed it?

          Where is your list? Are you driving traffic directly to a sales page without a funnel in place? If so, then you are barking up the wrong tree.

          The first step is to give away a free report on dating, in exchange for their email address. As soon as they subscribe to your list, they are then taken to a sales page that has a 1 time offer, for 70% off your regular price. (just inflate your current price a whole bunch)

          Now, you have employed the factors that make a sale: social proof (testimonials), reciprocation (you gave them something they perceive as valuable), you haven't really overcome trust yet, but the deal will be so sweet they can't refuse, and lastly, you initiated a scarcity by making a 1 time offer (that you need to stick to)

          Now, on top of all of that, you now have their email list to slowly build their trust overtime by sending them great valuable content. Now, you can offer a "sale" on Thanksgiving and call it your "Find a soulmate in time for the Holidays Sale" for 1/2 off your jacked up price (which is still higher than the price you are selling it for now)

          Then once this "funnel" is built, then work on driving traffic to your free offer and not your $ offer.
          Wow! There was a whole heap of information in this short post...Thanks from me to you! I'm sure Mike will get something from it as well.
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  • Keep going with it. I would market to them via email at least once a week. Offer some advice, even if it's an excerpt of the book, and send a different one out once a week to the people that bought. If they refund, they will lose the emails. Giving them touches after the product is sold enforces their decision and gives them the warm and fuzzys. Use call to actions in the emails to get them to recommend it to other people or to "like" your facebook page.
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  • Profile picture of the author TopKat22
    Wow! I'm so sorry to hear this. I think maybe you were trying to hard to make THE perfect ebook.

    I wanted to make an ebook, wrote it, pick a cover, had it ready in about a week, started selling it, so many people bought it they wanted to be affiliates, I had a friend with affiliate software who set it up, had 27 affiliates in another week or so and now it just sells itself.

    No designer, no copywriter, nothing fancy.

    My point is that some times, we try to hard to make something perfect when people really just want the true, heartfelt, personal information that they can relate to.

    Guy Kawasaki goes over this in his book when he says "just do it crappy", "get it done".

    Of course, he doesn't really mean to do something intentionally "crappy". He means get it done.

    There can be set backs and yes, you can get a little discouraged. Pick yourself up and move on and do it again.

    You can do it.
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  • Also... paying $147 for a high quality ecover doesn't sound like it would be "high quality". That still could be part of your issue. Not sure as I haven't seen your cover...
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
    There is this mind set to crank out any c%^p and slap a price tag on it. While you might have taken a really long time to write this thing given your perfectionism, that might actually work in your favor. The fact that you actually produced something worthwhile.

    I think your next step should be to look into Amazon publishing, first on Kindle. Then print on demand.

    Also, you should get a press release out there to as many outlets as possible. A real press release, not just a ploy to sell the ebook. Considering the quality of your experience and subsequent book, you could actually get interviews in other media.

    All it takes is a blurb in one print magazine and your website's server would be overloaded.
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    The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials. ~ Lin Yutang
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
    Thanks LeeLee. You echoed my thoughts exactly.

    I never liked the idea of "throwing something together" just to make a buck. I don't see that as good business. Yet it seems everyone and their brother is able to crank out a full blown ebook/salesletter in just a few days.

    I prefer to spend a lot of time on one product, making it the best I can, and then promote it for the long term. My gut tells me this is the better way to do business online.

    There's just more ways to leverage it in my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
    Jack,

    You just opened 16 cans of worms there.

    You're absolutely right. I am fully aware of the leverage that a list can provide. In fact, I just signed up to Aweber the other day. I'm still in the process of setting it all up, but I've already set up two test pages to test everything out - so far so good.

    In fact, I've already written 13 "killer" follow up emails that I will use in my autoresponder sequence. That's the very next thing I'm going to test. (And instead of a free report, I'm giving them a free video, which I'm told is even better.)

    So yes, I definitely have big plans to include and leverage a list. (My apologies, I should have mentioned that in my initial post.)

    The "October mini launch" was just to test my salesletter to see if any "cold traffic" would convert - which it did. One day I had 1 sale out of just 10 visits. I wanted to see if my sales letter could "stand on it's own" so to speak before I added a list/video/follow-up sequence etc. I figured adding that stuff later would just increase my conversions even further. (Not to mention enticing potential JVs down the line.)
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Originally Posted by Mike Bradson View Post

    .........To those who are already successful online – is this really what it takes?
    Mike,

    The short answer is "sometimes". I can relate to some of what you wrote because I started in the dating niche (for men) 7 years ago. It was a lot of hard work, frustration, and throwing my PC through the window more than once.

    As you can imagine, it got really expensive. Fast.

    In all seriousness, I could write a long post that would probably help you out and many others as I've built successful businesses, one of which is in the dating niche. In fact, I started out as a dating coach / PUA to my friends and they're the ones who convinced me to get into this market because I had a lot of good things to teach. There was a time in my life when I was going out almost every night 3-5 hours a week just practicing pick up.

    Why don't you PM me, let's get together on Skype, and I will assess your business model. I will be asking you a ton of questions to find out what your weak gaps are. And if you have any fears that I'm doing this to "spy" on you, don't be. I could easily do that without having to ask anything.

    Besides, there are hundreds, if not thousands of marketers in this niche, however, there are only a handful that truly matter. Hit me up and let's see what we could do to patch this bad boy up.

    Some things to think about:

    1. Your product mix: this is a competitive niche and generally one or two products won't cut it, especially if you plan on paying for advertising and/or SEO services. You should have at least 10 products you should be marketing.

    2. Building your list. While 13 killer autoresponders is a good start, in this market you'll want to send out at least one e-mail per week with some tactical information, balancing pick up techinque versus mindset (inner game vs. outer game).

    3. Don't be afraid to partner with your competition. Sometimes they can become your greatest allies.

    4. CANP: Constant And Never-ending Promotion. When you're first breaking into a market you must keep up with your promotional campaigns. Whether it's on TV, radio, article syndication, buying advertising, adswaps, joint ventures, using free publicity, etc. you just keep on going until you get the desired results.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Bradson
    Wow, some awesome replies in this thread. Thanks very much everyone for your input. I really do appreciate it. Makes me feel that I'm not completely alone in this endeavor.

    Rod thanks for that. I sent you a PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author tlrix
    Though luck man ... but you must have learned a lot along the way? As another reply in this thread said: just work faster next time.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    I think this happens to a lot of us.

    We want the perfect product, the perfect marketing campaign, the perfect salesletter, etc.

    We spend so much time and money investing in it, just to get something that's subpar!

    I'm constantly having to tell myself "good enough is good enough", because you can drive yourself crazy if you always want it to be perfect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gavori
    Wow, remember that it costs money to make money. Although it has been a rough road so far, I'm sure it will get better soon! Good luck with your ebook sales mate! It sounds like you put a lot of work and effort into the production of this ebook. I bet a lot of people would appreciate the ebook when it finally launches.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammed Hammad2
    Mike, you are really a hard worker.

    I respect that you stayed years after years trying to perfect your product more and more and also choosing the honest path by getting genuine testimonials.

    What I found interesting that you are doing everything in the slow motion mode.
    sorry for that, but why don't you make everything a little more quicker?!

    Here is a quote I got from my mentor "Keep Things Going And Perfect Them Later"

    Tell me what was wrong if you started selling your product and every time you modify your book, you will sent it to your customers? for example your dating product is called "Dating Women 101" then you send them the version "Dating Women 101 2.0" and so on.

    Why didn't you try to hire a product launch manager to contact JVs and do your marketing plan and talk with your copywriters and do all the dirty work, as I understood from your post, you didn't mind spending money for getting quality work.

    About the designers, did you see their past work? did they looked appealing to you?

    Last thing, I know it has been a long hard way, but take it as an experience not a failure, and try doing it again, but faster and more efficient now since you've got the experience.
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