Is this really 'marketing"?

21 replies
Hello everyone,
i'm pretty new here but since i've started reading and "learning" from WSO's and other things i must say i'm kinda disappointed with what i've found to be "internet marketing"

Alright let me start, i have a background in graphic design and advertising, i recently lost my job and currently work freelance as a web/facebook designer programmer.

I have always been interested in marketing in the real world but since most of the work i do is online and i see the potential for reaching more people in creative ways i decided to take up "internet marketing".

Here is where i stand: i don't understand "internet marketing'', i mean i'm not saying it's not real because many people here make money selling "something" to "someone" but i just don't get it.

Most of the WSO's just tell you some info you can't really have success with and then that's how they make their money. It's like passing a ball in which people put money and pass on to take that money.

I get the whole google rankings thing but the practice of getting good rankings offered here and in other sites seem pretty much dirty. I mean i know i can pay someone $5 and create X amount of backlinks and X amount of link wheels and sumbit X amount of spun articles to here and there but i just don't see how this is an execution of any kind of marketing.

It may be just me since i'm coming from the offline world but i just can't seem to grasp the concept of offering SEO to legitimate businesses without being afraid of using all these shady techniques and tricks.

What i'm trying to get at is this: Let's say i wan't to incorporate internet marketing services to a freelance ad agency, is there any way of making these practices legit? I mean build real results in Google, the right way? Is there any right way? Do we always need the next new trick or can you really use real skills and techniques to get your site good rankings and exposure.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant .
Thx!
#is this really marketing
  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Originally Posted by amnesiac84 View Post

    Most of the WSO's just tell you some info you can't really have success with and then that's how they make their money. It's like passing a ball in which people put money and pass on to take that money.
    One could only come to that conclusion if they had purchased and read all of the WSOs available. There are many WSOs that teach basic skills needed to create content, drive traffic, convert sales, etc. Others provide tools for helping you achieve these things.

    I get the whole google rankings thing but the practice of getting good rankings offered here and in other sites seem pretty much dirty. I mean i know i can pay someone $5 and create X amount of backlinks and X amount of link wheels and sumbit X amount of spun articles to here and there but i just don't see how this is an execution of any kind of marketing.
    With all due respect, if you do not understand how driving traffic to an offer is marketing, then you may not understand what the word "marketing" means. Sure, there are some shady techniques being offered, but there are also very legit ways to perform SEO.

    It's no different than a brick and morter business that is trying to get people in their doors. Our "doors" are our websites.

    It may be just me since i'm coming from the offline world but i just can't seem to grasp the concept of offering SEO to legitimate businesses without being afraid of using all these shady techniques and tricks.
    What shady tricks are you referring to?

    What i'm trying to get at is this: Let's say i wan't to incorporate internet marketing services to a freelance ad agency, is there any way of making these practices legit? I mean build real results in Google, the right way? Is there any right way? Do we always need the next new trick or can you really use real skills and techniques to get your site good rankings and exposure.
    Search engine optimization is a skill, not a trick. Companies pay thousands of dollars to qualified SEO technicians to get better ranking in Google. It seems that you are set to a mindset that SEO experts are nothing more than scammers. I don't understand that way of thinking, even after reading your post.
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  • If you're saying that in many IM cases it seems like the blind leading the blind, that's absolutely true.

    There *are* a lot of people here just in it for the quick buck. And they don't care how they get it or who it hurts. They're not interested in helping people or building a legitimate foundation for a business. They dub themselves "SEO experts" or "social media marketers" and hope nobody notices how much hot air they're full of.

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  • Profile picture of the author Ralph Moore
    Greetings,

    No, it doesn't sound like a rant. It sounds like a legitimate question.

    Yes, many of the 'techniques' that you see offered in some of the wso's have little chance of accomplishing much of anything and are viewed by many as a complete "rip-off".

    The nature of Internet Marketing is always changing. In the early days of the Internet, just about anything that offered a link to a product could end up inspiring at least some sales.

    Then came the teeming masses of buyers and 'marketers'.

    What used to work has shifted and will continue to do so.

    What will pretty much always work is to build relevant, useful content and present it in a captivating way.

    If you are marketing to the offline world, or bringing offline companies a richer online venue for their marketing efforts, then you are way ahead of the game, given your background.
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  • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
    Originally Posted by amnesiac84 View Post

    I get the whole google rankings thing but the practice of getting good rankings offered here and in other sites seem pretty much dirty. I mean i know i can pay someone $5 and create X amount of backlinks and X amount of link wheels and sumbit X amount of spun articles to here and there but i just don't see how this is an execution of any kind of marketing.
    That's because the process you've just described isn't "marketing"; it's people trying to game the search engines. Yes, there are tons of people out there advocating/selling techniques just like that, but that doesn't make it the right/best way to do things.

    Brian's right... marketing on the web is just like marketing a brick and mortar business. The goal is to let your target audience know what you have to offer, explain how your products/services benefit them, and show why you're better than all of your competitors. And, just like in the brick and mortar world, you can't take shortcuts and expect to be successful. There are more "tricks" in the IM world (simply because, by nature, the web is anonymous and the brick and mortar world isn't) - but that doesn't mean that every IMer is shady or that every technique is bad.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
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      • Profile picture of the author amnesiac84
        Thanks to everyone who replied.
        By no means am i trying to discredit any of the work people do for IM, since i know people have made good money here and have careers from this.

        But coming from a background in college studies on advertising, there's just something i can't grasp about doing IM the right way, like building good links with good content, when there is people just blasting away with tricks and the such to outscore google rankings.

        I know there is much more to it than google ranking but it is an important part of having clients found. This is where i mainly have issues with the techniques i've been learning from the WSO and forums.

        I have been reading the Ultimate Web Marketing Guide book and i have learned a good bit about internet marketing, i'm just trying to make sure i'm getting it right when i go to work at it and not be unable to deliver due to not using massive amounts of backlinks, pushing links and other things like that.

        Again i'm not trying to start any discussion it's just i'm having some issues with all these "marketing experts". Maybe it's the forum, i dunno, just got me going around in circles and pulling my hair out as to what i can put under my websites IM section, 1,000 + backlinks! 100+ Article submissions!, all this sounds not well tough out like just throwing things out there for no reason, this is what got to me in terms of the application i would have for it.

        Anyways i'll just quietly go away and try and approach this some other way, thanks for the replies!
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        • Profile picture of the author Verisimilitude
          Originally Posted by amnesiac84 View Post

          Thanks to everyone who replied.
          By no means am i trying to discredit any of the work people do for IM, since i know people have made good money here and have careers from this.

          But coming from a background in college studies on advertising, there's just something i can't grasp about doing IM the right way, like building good links with good content, when there is people just blasting away with tricks and the such to outscore google rankings.

          I know there is much more to it than google ranking but it is an important part of having clients found. This is where i mainly have issues with the techniques i've been learning from the WSO and forums.

          I have been reading the Ultimate Web Marketing Guide book and i have learned a good bit about internet marketing, i'm just trying to make sure i'm getting it right when i go to work at it and not be unable to deliver due to not using massive amounts of backlinks, pushing links and other things like that.

          Again i'm not trying to start any discussion it's just i'm having some issues with all these "marketing experts". Maybe it's the forum, i dunno, just got me going around in circles and pulling my hair out as to what i can put under my websites IM section, 1,000 + backlinks! 100+ Article submissions!, all this sounds not well tough out like just throwing things out there for no reason, this is what got to me in terms of the application i would have for it.

          Anyways i'll just quietly go away and try and approach this some other way, thanks for the replies!
          Plenty of people in the non-IM/SEO marketing world who are also full of ****, bud. They're not always completely full of ****, but I digress. Even the best of them sometimes end up talking out of their ass somewhat from time to time, and make their advice and expertise sound a whole lot more useful than it really is.

          Take Seth Godin for example. Pretty sure he's fairly well-respected. Smart guy. Has plenty of good insights. Doesn't mean that he doesn't ever fall to the temptation of making broad, sweeping truthy sounding statements that aren't necessarily true.

          For instance, in his 2005 book "All Marketers Are Liars", he talks about early adopters. He makes the claim that "Early adopters are techno geeks and nerds who go out and buy the latest gizmo". Sounds reasonable. You want to believe this doncha? And so many people did. However, what if I were to tell you that there are also plenty of people who are early adopters, not because they're techno geeks and nerds, but because they fancy themselves as such? Plenty of tech savvy consumers understand that newly launched gadgets often have glitches and bugs, and so they don't necessarily go out and buy the latest ones. Go browse a few tech/gadget forums and you'll see what I mean. Furthermore, there are plenty of people out there with the latest gadgets that have no idea how they actually work and really have very little understanding of technology. Wait till the next Macbook product line comes out, or till the next Android device comes out, and seek out the early adopters. Ask them whether they know what kernel MacOS is based off of, or what programming languages Android apps can be programmed in. See how many actually know the answer.

          And so it becomes "early adopters are tech gadget enthusiasts, but not all tech gadget enthusiasts are techno geeks and nerds, and not all techno geeks and nerds are early adopters." Not exactly what Godin was implying now was it?

          I have a more recent example too. Seth Godin started his own publishing gig through Amazon. One of his recommended books is "Zarella's Hierarchy of Contagiousness: The Science, Design, and Engineering of Contagious Ideas", by Dan Zarella, who is "supposed" to be a reasonably authoritative figure on social/viral media (at least according to his background and experience). Sounds enticing, right? Even the title makes it sound authoritative. "Science", and "Engineering". Already, you might be starting to feel giddy like you've stumbled upon a hidden gem. Except you might be disappointed if you have some sort of formal background in the actual sciences. For instance, Dan tries to compare the spread of ideas with the spread of diseases. He borrows a term from epidemiology, "R0", to describe how contagious an idea is. Supposedly, that makes it "sciency". He describes how infectious diseases have a R0 higher than 1, and how even the best contagious ideas he's observed have R0's less than 1. Sounds sciency don't it? Until you realize that R0 isn't really a good measure of how infectious something is - it's more of a threshold to determine whether an infectious pathogen will die off on its own or not. If R0 > 1, human intervention is probably needed to stop it from spreading. If R0 < 1, it's likely to die off on its own. There are plenty of criticisms of R0 by actual accredited mathematicians doing research in University departments. I'll even lead you to the first one. Just do a google scholar search for "perspectives on the basic reproductive ratio". It's a bit of a dry read, but it provides a lot of good insight on what R0 is actually useful for. Feel free to look up the credentials of its authors and what other articles they've written. Quite impressive. So really, when Zarrella observes that every "idea viruses" he has come across has had a R0 < 1, he's saying that he's never come across an "idea virus" that can spread like a successful biological pathogen. That's not science. That's just an observation. So why even compare "idea viruses" to pathogens? I can't be sure, but I suspect it's because it's an anchoring effect. I suspect that he probably hopes that by confusing the reader with technical "sciency" sounding terms and by making it look like there's a huge gap between "idea viruses" and pathogens that he'll scare them into going "oh ****! we're screwed now! better listen to what this guy says, he probably knows his stuff." Additionally, pathogens can often spread on their own passively. Not always the case with ideas. You can't sit next to/cough/bleed/sneeze/etc on someone, and magically transmit an idea into their heads. So naturally, there probably won't be as many "infections". Also, let's not forget that R0 is an estimate, and that there's more than one method of calculating it.

          How's that for truthiness and science? An old adage comes to mind - "There's lies, damned lies, and statistics."

          We can talk about more extreme cases as well. I'm sure over the course of your Advertising curriculum that you've heard time and time again about the virtues of social media. Plenty of full-service marketers out there who will claim that social media is good for your business because it generates "sharing" and "free advertising" because interactions show up on news feeds of friends of the person interacting with you. They talk up a storm about "engagement", etc., and make the whole thing sound like magic. When you think about it though, who the hell actually creeps through their news feed carefully cataloging and following what brands each of their friends "likes" or talks about? There is a specific kind of segment that does do this, but I'm sure there have been times when you've been made to feel like it's more lucrative than it really is. Furthermore, if your segment consists of a group of facebook addicts that have nothing better to do than to creep on Facebook all day instead of being productive, who's to say they can even afford to be loyal customers of your brand and produce positive net ROI? But the marketers don't always tell you that. They may not know what the hell they're doing either. They may try and get you a bunch of fans or likes on Facebook, and they may even do it legitimately. Doesn't mean it will actually do squat for your ROI (especially if you're a B2B firm).

          Anyhow, just my 2 cents. I could be completely wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Just remember, for every technique that is solid, there are people willing to scam that. You can produce a well written informative article, or you can spin one into crap. Both will (or used to) be good enough to pick up a search engine - but one will make you an authority in your niche and the other will disgust a real reader. Some were only to target loads of traffic period. Guess which techniques get slammed (hint come into the forum after something like the panda slap and watch all the crying).

    You can use linking techniques. Some links will add value for your viewers and some are specifically for search engines. Guess which ones get slammed periodically? Hmmmm - Where did all those worthless and annoying adsense sites go? What happened to all the sites that were nothing but link or content farms?

    The reason IM seems so strange to you is that you are seeing all of the wanna-bes who have it in their head that the quick routes that "fool" SE and people are going to get them rich fast and sustain them. They get proven wrong over and over again.

    Build your business with integrity and you will get over in the long run. If you link, make it useful. If you do a blog post, make it a good one for the owner of the blog as well as useful for yourself. If you use an article, make it well thought out and informative. If you use techniques tin ways that are always aimed at customer satisfaction. Search engines can get you seen - but when people see you, if you look like an idiot, it's not marketing as far as I can tell.
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    • when people see you, if you look like an idiot, it's not marketing as far as I can tell.



      :-)

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      • Profile picture of the author cellington
        Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

        when people see you, if you look like an idiot, it's not marketing as far as I can tell.



        :-)

        fLufF
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        Yes, he looks silly, but I must admit... I know who he is and what he offers, even though there's not a single word of ad copy with this image. Am I the only one?

        This is an example of "branding", which is related to, yet different from, marketing
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        • Profile picture of the author Anthony Aires
          Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

          when people see you, if you look like an idiot, it's not marketing as far as I can tell.



          :-)

          fLufF
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          Originally Posted by cellington View Post

          Yes, he looks silly, but I must admit... I know who he is and what he offers, even though there's not a single word of ad copy with this image. Am I the only one?

          This is an example of "branding", which is related to, yet different from, marketing
          Great observation, and a powerful one too.

          In my experience success with IM is derived from drilling down and focusing on what intrigues you the most.

          You may already know what that is, and if not you should try keeping a journal of your behavior for a week (keeping track of what you're doing with your time i.e. are you discovering niches and researching commercial intent, or are you studying traffic)!

          After a week (if you've been honest in your journal) you'll soon discover what intrigues you and what you like doing naturally...from there get as many trainings as possible from different teachers, consume all the information and pick which teacher you like the best.

          Model your business after that mentor/teacher and you'll be well on your way to your desired destination.

          Yours For Prosperity,

          Anthony Aires

          P.S. You should never ever launch a full out SEO campaign until you've tested out your targeted niche and made sure it converts and the best way to do that is with ppc traffic (the investment spent on PPC researching your niche will far outweigh the time and money spent on a SEO Campaign that may not convert)
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      • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
        Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

        when people see you, if you look like an idiot, it's not marketing as far as I can tell.



        :-)

        fLufF
        --

        I do not agree with your example. As another poster pointed out, we know this guy and his product just by looking at his picture. You say that it's not marketing, yet his brand is known by almost everybody and he has sold millions because of it. If that's not marketing, then what is?
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        • Profile picture of the author bitriot
          Maybe my perspective might help you. At my dayjob, I work for Digital Marketing Agencies. I have worked before at a number of gigantic shops like Razorfish and ARC. Currently I work at a smaller agency. I figure this uniquely positions myself to help bridge this gap for you!

          First off, there are many many many ways to be an internet marketer. You are focused on those selling MMO info products because those are the people we hear about but I can assure you, that is actually the minority segment of IMers.

          So first, lets compare what things an "offline" digital agency does that IMers also do:

          Well for starters, at Razorfish, we had a media group that directed and optimized add buys worth tens of millions of dollars for clients like Kraft Foods and AT&T. The media group buys traditional banners, facebook ads, google adwords and so on. In fact, every AT&T banner you have ever seen with that circular reply button is produced by Razorfish. Anyhow, this is no different than what the CPC advertisers do here, just in a much larger scale.

          Second, at digital agencies we design / redesign sites / emails / media and sell them to client companies. This is the same thing many warriors do in the sites for sale section. Obviously we do a much higher quality of work on a $500k project, but the point stands.

          Next, Digital agencies sell SEO consultation. This is always baked into new site designs, but is often offered as a stand alone service as well. This means optimizing for keywords, h1/h2 tags, meta tags as well as other on page factors. This is one half of the puzzle everyone talks about in the Adsense / SEO section of the forum.

          Further down the line, some digital agencies will manage twitter / facebook and so on for their clients in a traditional "community guide" type roll, posting regular tweets and updates. Many warriors prescribe this as a traffic strategy. We also are now in the business of designing custom facebook pages and apps which is something many warriors are interested in.

          Now lets talk about opt ins? My agency launched a kick ass Christmas promotion for a supermarket chain in the Illinois tri-state area. They had an exciting game you could play on their website to win free stuff. Part of the giveaway required leads however. In 2 days they turned over 28k leads. 2 Days. That was a week ago. This thing is gonna go until Christmas. So, have you ever heard a warrior say they wish they started list building earlier? Well, the big ass companies are paying out the nose to build lists, though a $300k project that nets 100k email sign ups is probably worth it's weight in gold.

          And even "dirty" link building - did you hear that JCPenny.com, the largest internet retailer in the United States just took a huge google rankings hit? Well, they did because their SEO agency was involved in the largest single client link building scheme of all time. The point is, big ass companies are spending on this type of activity as well.

          And that is just a sampling of the similarities.

          As far as the consumer facing marketing goes, well, lots of us make money by running complete webstores or PPC offers or CPA offers as affiliates/drop shippers and I can't think of anything more directly related to marketing and branding than that.

          Edit: 1 other thing I forgot is that Analytics are a HUGE part of all webdev projects now. Large companies rely on omniture / google analytics to understand their web site conversion, targeting and funnel. Every project has analytics integrated though, often times, companies will employ their own in house analytics team.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by fluffythewondercat View Post

        MATTHEW LESKO! I love him.
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    • Profile picture of the author cellington
      It's not like "marketing" doesn't have its own set of "shady" practices. In fact, in pretty much every industry there are those who do it right and succeed and those who do it badly and crash 'n burn. From shady contractors to shady lawyers to shady car salesman to .. well, pretty much everything can be corrupted by those just looking for shortcuts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Webinjo
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by Webinjo View Post

      Very useful post, I was glad to read it!
      Hey, I know you. You just posted "Lovely aspiring knowledge Cheap Gucci Purses Get Viagra" on my blog.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brendan Vraibel
        Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

        Hey, I know you. You just posted "Lovely aspiring knowledge Cheap Gucci Purses Get Viagra" on my blog.
        Gold, Brian! Gold!
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  • Profile picture of the author vivi62
    Dont get caught in the information overload,there are many ways of earning online without offering packages that dont work you could offer your services on one of these

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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by vivi62 View Post

      Dont get caught in the information overload, have this overload of information
      Seriously? WTF
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by amnesiac84 View Post

    Most of the WSO's...
    ...aren't actually about marketing.

    i just can't seem to grasp the concept of offering SEO to legitimate businesses
    Yeah, that isn't marketing.

    Let's say i wan't to incorporate internet marketing services to a freelance ad agency, is there any way of making these practices legit? I mean build real results in Google, the right way? Is there any right way?
    Yes. Pretend there is no such thing as Google. Identify your customer and understand what they want, then deliver it as best you can.

    THAT is marketing.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    Don't know where you been marketing offline but the offliners around here could eat most onliners for breakfast
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  • Profile picture of the author Osman_M
    You may want to join the war room and look under the strategies sub sections. Lots of "marketing" stuff there.
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