The Problem of Students Becoming the Competition

43 replies
Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

Happening a lot lately...
#competition #problem #students
  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hersh
    I will contact him and ask him if this is what he learned from me. After that I think I'll drive to his house to have a little "Chat" <---
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    • Profile picture of the author AnneE
      Originally Posted by Mike Hersh View Post

      I will contact him and ask him if this is what he learned from me. After that I think I'll drive to his house to have a little "Chat" <---
      At first I chuckled about this and I don't recommend driving to the house, but I'm curious on whether you tried contacting the person directly and explain that you have invested a lot creating the sales copy and images and that they are violating copyright by using them and to please stop. You could, depending on your mood, also mention that your next step will be to contact their webhosting company about the copyright violation.

      Sometimes just being confronted will make people cease and desist.
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  • Profile picture of the author mistermint
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

    Happening a lot lately...
    Hi, you need to keep one step ahead of them with new original content even water mark your images maybe..
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by mistermint View Post

      Hi, you need to keep one step ahead of them with new original content even water mark your images maybe..
      Yeah that's trying to beat the thief I understand, but we worked long and hard on our sales copy. My business partner created images from scratch. We don't want watermarks on our sales page! These are actual images we use to make our site look nice.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Yeah that's trying to beat the thief I understand, but we worked long and hard on our sales copy. My business partner created images from scratch. We don't want watermarks on our sales page! These are actual images we use to make our site look nice.
        Contact their hosting company and lodge a Copyright Infringement Complaint under the DMCA against them.
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        • Profile picture of the author appsrus
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Contact their hosting company and lodge a Copyright Infringement Complaint under the DMCA against them.
          Exactly!

          Btw hows it going Kevin! Mofo directed me to your product creation labs site the other day, looks like some cool stuff

          Actually, you were talking about WF in one of your vids and it reminded me I was a member and should come post here So you are directly resposible for my presence here today!!!

          Sorry..... now back to the topic
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        • Profile picture of the author Bryan Toder
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Contact their hosting company and lodge a Copyright Infringement Complaint under the DMCA against them.
          Tiffany...

          What Kevin suggested is your best route. I needed to do this once and it worked. Hosting companies don't want or need the hassle. If all it takes to make it go away is to take the offending site down, they will.

          You, however, will need to prove that it is your content, etc. But, that's not hard to do.

          Good luck!
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        • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
          Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

          Contact their hosting company and lodge a Copyright Infringement Complaint under the DMCA against them.
          Yep, this happened to me a few weeks ago where some jerk copied one of my landing pages almost verbatum. Basically all they did was change my affiliate links to their own.

          I contacted their hosting company and they were shut down within a few hours. I also found out who they were and called them up. They were quite shocked when they picked up the phone and I said something like "Yeah, I'm looking for the person that stole my webpage".

          Looking back, it's kind of funny now, but it wasn't at the time. That person likely costed me a few hundred dollars by doing that as the offer I was promoting was doing really well.

          Definitely contact their hosting company.

          Good luck!


          Joe
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    • Profile picture of the author JamesEcho1
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Tiffany,

        Here's my take on it. Like the rest, it's personal opinion.

        A student? That's not your casual pirate. That calls for hardball.

        First, I'd get several people to save copies of the offending material, for evidence. I'd also do a full page grab using Snagit.

        Then I'd send a note instructing the person to remove any and all copied material. Not asking. Instructing. No mention of consequences if they don't. Just, "My stuff. Remove it."

        If they complied, I'd just let my friends know not to trust that person. That can be an expensive place to live.

        If they didn't remove it, I'd get into the process. Screw this stuff about accepting it as part of the business, or outcompeting them, or pretending that the customer knows the difference in quality before they buy the products. Make the bastich pay, in Big Coin.

        File a DMCA notice with their web host. A proper one. If the student claims it's not infringing, and the host fails to remove it, up the ante and expose the student publicly. (But be careful about how you do it. Stick to facts, and keep your opinions about the creep's character out of it.)

        Inform their payment processor(s) that they're using copyrighted material without authorization. Quote any relevant sections of the terms of service.

        If they used any demonstrably copied material in emails to a list, I'd inform their list host, and quote the relevant parts of the terms of service. Losing your list because you were too lazy to write your own content is a hard lesson.

        If they use an outsourced affiliate solution, I'd inform them, quoting the relevant parts of their terms of service. Losing your whole affiliate force really sucks.

        Using AdWords? Same thing.

        Talk to their affiliates, if they have any and they can be identified.

        I'd look for every single point of failure in their process and make every effort legally and ethically allowable to break it.

        And then I'd use the hammer: I'd make sure every one of my friends new to avoid them. You know a lot of people, Tiffany. That could be a business-buster for them, if they rely on affiliates or joint ventures or some outsourced services.

        Some people miss the power of that last one, because they don't understand that it might not get them right away, but it will get them more certainly over time.

        It's bad for a stranger to steal from you. It's evil for a friend to do it. It's stupid for a student to do it.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Tina,
            Note to self: Never piss off Paul Meyers.
            That's not the bad stuff, except the "hammer." That's just the stuff that's safe to mention publicly.

            Wombat notice: Only one 'e' in the last name.

            Anyway, it's much, much harder to piss me off over this sort of thing than you might think. J. Random Stranger has very little chance of accomplishing it. Strangers just aren't worth the time.

            It's never proven to be a profitable thing for anyone who's managed to do it, though. I have a long memory, lots of friends, and more patience than the Buddha for some things.

            There isn't any of that which anyone here couldn't use effectively. It's a matter of deciding when to bother with it, and then paying attention to the details. Find a single point of failure, and stress it. Don't let it become personal, and don't let it control you. And never forget.


            Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanman
    Well...I have had several cases with a lot of people I helped...But I still believe in the concept of sharing. All I know is this- There is more than enough for everyone out there.

    And the more you give out...The more you get.
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  • Profile picture of the author ltdraper
    Add value that can't be taken. For instance, offer a software based service with a monthly fee. Even if they steal all of your copy and ideas, they still can't offer their students your value add of access to your software.

    It's easy enough to find software vendors where you can put together a reseller agreement. Just put together a suite of services that complement your system/
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    Nothing to see here, move along...

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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by ltdraper View Post

      Add value that can't be taken. For instance, offer a software based service with a monthly fee. Even if they steal all of your copy and ideas, they still can't offer their students your value add of access to your software.

      It's easy enough to find software vendors where you can put together a reseller agreement. Just put together a suite of services that complement your system/
      Ah it's not the offer - I'm not worried about the competition when you stack up quality against quality. What I'm talking about is just theft of my copy and images, period! That's annoying me.
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      • Profile picture of the author GB2008
        I have to agree with some of the other comments out here - in the long run you will get results based on the way you build your business. If you build with integrity, you'll win every time. If they think they can build lasting success based on ripped off material - they're going to be hurtin' for a long time! It's karma / fate / the Universe - whatever you call it, it's a universal law!
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      • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Ah it's not the offer - I'm not worried about the competition when you stack up quality against quality. What I'm talking about is just theft of my copy and images, period! That's annoying me.
        Go to their hosting provider and threaten them with legal action. That will shut them down. Then send your student a C&D letter.

        TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        I'm not worried about the competition when you stack up quality against quality.
        You're talking about YOUR students, right? If I was one, I might ask myself, "Why is she so confident I can't compete against her? Did she hold something back? Did she not really believe she could help me?", etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    If you're not worried about their quality being better than yours, then why not just let the consumer decide? If you're the "teacher" than you should have a leg up on getting the targeted traffic, right?

    As far as your images being stolen; (if I'm not mistaken); according to the DMCA, as soon as you put it online (and it is original content), it is copyrighted and giving you the ability to sue if being used outside of the fair use policies.

    There's a Warrior (can't remember his name) who's an actual lawyer (maybe even more) that can supply you with a simple and succinct "Cease and Desist" letter. Those usually shake people up pretty good.

    Hope this helps
    PLP,
    tecHead
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    • Profile picture of the author mistermint
      jasonl70 Sorry, had missed your comment: No, I am not accusing anyone of stealing, what I meant by the comment was, I'm sure we all took something from the net at some point in our lives that wasn't ours or we thought it would be OK.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Does that work even if they downloaded it and then reuploaded it to their own server? I would have loved to pull the old "switch it with porn" or an image that says "I steal images from blahblah.com" trick. LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author appsrus
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Does that work even if they downloaded it and then reuploaded it to their own server? I would have loved to pull the old "switch it with porn" or an image that says "I steal images from blahblah.com" trick. LOL

      What are you asking about? Sending a cease and desist letter?

      edit: and that would be great too, btw...... make sure they're beastiality pics
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Does that work even if they downloaded it and then reuploaded it to their own server? I would have loved to pull the old "switch it with porn" or an image that says "I steal images from blahblah.com" trick. LOL
      I seem to recall a script being promoted awhile back by Will Bontrager and Patrick Pretty that would do exactly that with the images. If I remember right, it was called HotLink Alarm...

      Found this link to an article introducing it.

      The Road

      Looks like it's moving inside Will's membership site, but that small investment (~$67 for 6 months) is well worth it. (Disclosure - I am a member, but get nothing for the recommendation.)
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

      Does that work even if they downloaded it and then reuploaded it to their own server? I would have loved to pull the old "switch it with porn" or an image that says "I steal images from blahblah.com" trick. LOL
      Yes.

      Clear enough?

      BTW, the warrior is called "Kindsvater" or something like that (I can't remember the exact name, sue me)
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Contact the student first. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding about
    your program and what the student can use. As ridiculous as this
    may seem, the Good Book suggests that when you have a fault against
    someone you speak to them alone first, then two other witnesses, then
    if all else fail, bring it to the Warrior Forum (Marketing Church)

    This formula saves a lot of trouble and never fails!

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Stewart
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Contact the student first. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding about
      your program and what the student can use. As ridiculous as this
      may seem, the Good Book suggests that when you have a fault against
      someone you speak to them alone first, then two other witnesses, then
      if all else fail, bring it to the Warrior Forum (Marketing Church)

      This formula saves a lot of trouble and never fails!

      -Ray Edwards
      This is true too. They may not have understood they were doing something wrong. As far fetched as it seems, it is possible and it couldn't hurt to ask. Maybe I should have done the same.

      It kind of reminds me of a headstone I saw at the "Boot Hill" cemetary in Tombstone, Arizona, where the guys from the gunfight at the O.K. Corral are buried. It reads:

      "Here lies George Johnson
      He was right and we was wrong
      but we strung him up
      and now he's gone"

      Thanks for the reminder Ray. :-)

      Joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    This is one of the reasons why I never divulge any of my niches when I teach someone. If they end up competing with me in the IM space them I'll offer them a more expensive coaching program to get them to the next level and then try and form an alliance.

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Thanks Paul - I'm of the same mindset. I hate the "bend over and take it" attitude - always have. And sales copy is so hard to write that I'll be damned if I'll let anyone steal it from me.

    You're right about the difference between strangers and students, too. With strangers, I don't feel this anger - thieves abound online. But when someone buys a guide from me to learn how to make money with a specific strategy (in this case lens flips), then opens up shop with parts of my content and images from our site, well then they're getting into the ring with me.

    Appreciate the advice (as always).
    Tiff
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  • Profile picture of the author VegasVince
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

    Happening a lot lately...

    Yo Tiffany....

    There's a difference between honest competition and outright theft of intellectual property.

    Sounds to me like you "student" engaged in the latter scenario.

    I know what I'd do....but breaking someones arms so they don't work a keyboard anymore...isn't something a classy chick like you should do.

    Expose the dude....or chick.....and then move on.

    Anyone who bases a business model around ripping off the creative talents of others....aint gonna last anyway.


    xxx Vegas Vince
    Legend
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  • Then the real problem is not the student becoming the competition but rather the student becoming the "rip off artist."

    Although there's much you can do about this thievery I'd like to suggest that your student is a loser because on his (or her) best day they are not as good as you are on your worst day. Never have been; never will be!

    That may or may not give you some comfort but it's got to be said that these people are indeed losers. They obviously don't have anything good and sustainable going for them. They'll run out of steam and have to find someone else to steal from in order to make a go of whatever business they happen to be promoting. That in itself will trip them up sooner or later.

    And, the law of reciprosity comes into play as well; once you steal one thing you'll lose exponentially more. So, these losers will get theirs. In the meantime Tiffany, your talents will take you higher and higher. Keep up the good work; it's coming back in spades.

    Whatever you do about this let your integrity continue to speak for you.

    Wishing you all the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

    Happening a lot lately...
    I've had this exact thing happen, too. Not often, but it does happen.

    Have your attorneys draft and send a Cease and Desist order.

    Have your attorneys contact their hosting provider.

    Make sure your policies and any contracts are very clear on the matter of your images, content, copy, etc...
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Oliver
      Just round up all us Texas Warriors and we'll
      have to make a road trip and pay them a visit.

      Robert
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Vince,
        Anyone who bases a business model around ripping off the creative talents of others....aint gonna last anyway.
        Most of them that I've seen don't. But some do. They usually aren't the ones copying directly, of course, since those folks get caught.

        I know people who are experts at cloning. Their end products are almost always better than the originals, their sales copy beats anything I've seen them clone, and you'd never be able to prove they were even aware of the original product just by looking at it.

        Autoresponders have been around for a long time. Back in (IIRC) '96 or '97, Byron Lunz, of Databack.com, came up with the idea of what he called "The SlowPoke" autoresponder. It would send the immediate message when you emailed the trigger address, and then a follow-up a week later.

        Clone and improve.

        Look where they are now.

        Very different from what I understand is going on here. Still, they do rely on the creative talents of others to some degree.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Jim Hallmark
        Originally Posted by Robert Oliver View Post

        Just round up all us Texas Warriors and we'll
        have to make a road trip and pay them a visit.

        Robert
        I'm on board with that Robert! Tiffany, we got your back so "holler" at us if you need some good ole boys to have a friendly chat with this here rat.

        Jim
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        • Profile picture of the author David-JP
          I have a former member, who is a warrior here who pretty blatantly copied a couple of my techniques and even my scripts and put them up on his website. I contacted him with proof and asked nicely for him to stop, but haven't bothered to go farther. Not sure if its worth even thinking about.

          David
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  • Profile picture of the author mistermint
    "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"
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  • Profile picture of the author MemberWing
    Share all your secrets you ever learned or paid big bucks for to learn.
    Let them make all the money that universe can give them.

    Then they'll talk to everyone they know about your greatness.

    Print the price tag for your services and enjoy the ride.

    Gleb
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    • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
      Originally Posted by mistermint View Post

      "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"
      You're accusing Tiffany of stealing???
      I don't know her personaly, but if there's one impression she's made on me it's that she's a good person and has integrity. Just reading that comment pissed me off...
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      -Jason

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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Molano
    Get a lawyer to tailor an NDA where it clearly states that the material is for personal use only, otherwise there will be a huge fee and you will obtain 90% of the profits generated with your material.

    Save all the session transcripts so that you are able to enforce this.

    Make sure every single potential client signs it before beginning. It doesn't even have to be a real signature, a virtual one will suffice.

    That's what I am currently doing and so far no issues.

    Now, that's for preventing, if you are already having issues I suggest you do as Paul states.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

    Happening a lot lately...
    DCMA is your friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author waken
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    Warriors who teach others a certain system - what action do you take when your own customer and student launches a competitor business, which isn't a problem, but then rips off your sales copy and images?

    Happening a lot lately...
    Well, if they're your students / customers...
    I think they'll listen if you tell 'em this is not the correct way and guide them doing it the correct way..

    rather than reporting it to their hosting etc. for legal actions which in many cases, work for that particular case only but couldn't stop 'em from doing again in the future.

    Perhaps, they just need some education and guidance ...why not give 'em a hand so that they become like minded people like us in future and come together to make the internet a better environment? Isn't that what life meant to be?
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  • Profile picture of the author soon
    Tiffany, my view of this is the following.

    When this happens I see a big alarm. Indeed what the student did is wrong but what's worst for me is that he was able to do that and copy my stuff. So I know I have to offer something even better that can't be copied. I will offer a web service or things like this.

    Like it was previously suggested watermarking images could also be a good idea, but on the other hand that might not work for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
    Hey guys! Since this thread got resurrected I thought I'd update y'all on the outcome. My business partner contacted her and politely (more than I could have done) let her know what she did was wrong, etc.

    We're pretty sure she knew, but she took it all down and acted ignorant about it. Fine by me, whatever - I personally think she just got caught

    But the outcome was we got our originality back, which was what I wanted.
    Thanks for the support Warriors!
    tiff
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  • Profile picture of the author LordXenu
    I wouldn't ever sell a method that i haven't either grown out of, or can't risk having competition in. I have wrote up an eBook I am selling on DP that I am considering releasing as a WSO, it's a viable whitehat retail business model that i still make reasonable money with, but it's far from my primary income these days, and I can afford to make a little extra cash teaching the method. If I lost that income stream entirely tomorrow it wouldn't affect my business. It would be silly to release this information for free, but if I can sell it to a few good students and make some money, I'm happy. Good for them if they come at it fullbore and give me some competition. I'd rather see my students make something of my course than toss it aside like most do after reading and bounce to the next get rich quick eBook.

    Would I ever sell a guide outlining a method that was making me real good money, that I depended on for a good portion of my income, and that faced a threat as of the result of saturation? Hell no.
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