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Can I deny service to businesses I don't like at my website?

by carlos123
20 replies
I am wondering if one can create a site, say a directory of local businesses in a particular class of business, and deny entry to businesses that one does not like or whose position on various things one does not feel like supporting (even if indirectly by helping them get additional customers)?

For example....

Let's say I am absolutely against the testing of cosmetics on animals (this is just an example and I don't want to get into a debate on the relative merits of the various sides of this issue).

And I create a local directory of cosmetics stores.

Can I deny access to stores locally that have no problem with the testing of cosmetics on live animals and only offer entry to those that agree to a statement that they do not condone live testing on animals?

Or some such?

I mean you could name any number of issues. For example a directory of wedding photographers where I either deny entry to those who promote themselves to homosexual couples wanting photos of their "wedding" or deny entry to those who don't make themselves available to take such photos.

Or a directory of churches denying entry to those who believe abortion is a legitimate and rightful choice or only to those who think it's not.

That type of thing.

Here in the U.S. am I free to limit my website directory to whichever kind of business I want to make it available to?

I ask because, if not, I think that will help me determine what kind of businesses to target where I won't want to target a directory at businesses that might be a problem for me to support later down the line.

Again this is NOT about the issues themselves. For purposes of this thread I could care less about the issues themselves. I am only interested in knowing whether a website directory can deny entry to any type of business that the owner of that directory does not feel comfortable supporting.

In Canada for example one does not have that freedom such that under certain cases one's business will be brought before what is called a Human Rights Commission and fined if it does not allow equal access to all (again this thread is NOT about whether the Canadian model is great or terrible vs the U.S. one - whatever the U.S. one is. I bring that up only as an example where it is not okay to necessarily deny service to a business for the kinds of reasons I brought up in certain cases).

What is the situation in the U.S. regarding this kind of thing?

Carlos
#businesses #deny #service #website
  • Profile picture of the author JDub07
    It's your website you can deny anybody you want.
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by JDub07 View Post

      It's your website you can deny anybody you want.
      One would naturally think that would be the case but I know for a fact that in certain countries, like Canada, that is not the case (I lived there for ten years).

      I guess I am wondering if some company has grounds to sue me in the U.S. if I create a very successful local directory and do not allow them to participate for whatever reason that I personally do not feel comfortable with.

      I mean take for example the Yellow Pages. It's their website too.

      But if the Yellow Pages were to deny a company or companies based on whatever reason, if said reason had to do with things like abortion (either pro or con), animal cosmetic testing (either for or against), and any number of other similar issues...you can bet your bottom dollar that they would be sued.

      If there are legitimate grounds for such lawsuits in the U.S. I want to then stick to targeting businesses that I won't ever have any problem with.

      Such as...well...let's see...hmm..

      Refridgerator Repair
      Pool Cleaning
      Dog Grooming

      That type of thing.

      Carlos
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
        Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post

        One would naturally think that would be the case but I know for a fact that in certain countries, like Canada, that is not the case (I lived there for ten years).

        I guess I am wondering if some company has grounds to sue me in the U.S. if I create a very successful local directory and do not allow them to participate for whatever reason that I personally do not feel comfortable with.

        I mean take for example the Yellow Pages. It's their website too.

        But if the Yellow Pages were to deny a company or companies based on whatever reason, if said reason had to do with things like abortion (either pro or con), animal cosmetic testing (either for or against), and any number of other similar issues...you can bet your bottom dollar that they would be sued.

        If there are legitimate grounds for such lawsuits in the U.S. I want to then stick to targeting businesses that I won't ever have any problem with.

        Such as...well...let's see...hmm..

        Refridgerator Repair
        Pool Cleaning
        Dog Grooming

        That type of thing.

        Carlos
        Hi Carlos - you might want to think about what you said - in Canada a business can't deny another business service lest it gets sued. Under human rights.

        Human rights don't cover corporations and business legal entities as rights, but rather as obligations.

        You are thinking as if you are dealing with people as your customers. You are probably not - its a bad mindset to be in.

        If the Yellow Pages refused to take your business - they don't have to - and they certainly don't have to give a reason. Sure you (as a business) could sue them - but it would be hard to demonstrate a reason why.

        Essentially - you have no right to businesses services in most cases, as another business - you might have an invitation to treat - that is going to be it.

        Sure there are exceptions - but from the way you talking - it's pretty clear you are viewing yourself as an individual - and your potential clients as individuals - thats no way to do business.

        You both should be running separate legal entities.

        The fact that your struggling with such distinctions kinda makes me thing you are running before you can walk. Set up your business. Accept who you want and refuse those you don't want. No reason to give a reason why - you are operating a business and dealing with businesses.

        Get out there and do it properly -> this is BS
        I mean you could but such might lead to troublesome consequences up to and including a lawsuit if your directory was very successful (like the Yellow Pages) and you were excluding some businesses for no seemingly valid and stated reason.

        On the other hand if you state the reasons clearly you might mitigate some of that trouble in that businesses would know in no uncertain terms why you might have denied them service.
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        • Profile picture of the author carlos123
          Originally Posted by Steve Peters Benn View Post

          Essentially - you have no right to businesses services in most cases, as another business - you might have an invitation to treat - that is going to be it.
          An interesting point Steve. I'll have to think about that.

          Carlos
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            The issue, for purposes of this thread, was and is whether or not one can deny business to any other business (or individual) based on the kinds of issues I have raised. Whether doing so opens one up to lawsuits in the U.S.
            On reading your further comments, I think you have to consider two separate and distinct issues:

            > Whether or not turning away such business violates the law in some way.

            > Whether or not turning away such business makes you an attractive target for a civil action.

            In the U.S., you can file a suit against pretty much anybody over pretty much any issue as long as you submit the proper paperwork and pay the required filing fee. After that, it's up to the court to figure out if there is any real basis for the suit.
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            • Profile picture of the author carlos123
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              In the U.S., you can file a suit against pretty much anybody over pretty much any issue as long as you submit the proper paperwork and pay the required filing fee. After that, it's up to the court to figure out if there is any real basis for the suit.
              Not a bad thing actually. I mean that anyone can file suit against anyone else for whatever reason and that the courts determine what is and is not a valid suit.

              I mean I can't really think of any other way to do it other than for the legal system to say that certain classes of suits are invalid to begin with and can't be filed but that has it's own set of problems.

              I do not mind at all being sued where the lawsuit has no basis. I am fairly certain that I could get support from certain quarters to defend my right to operate under my Christian beliefs in my own business (which in this case would be a directory catering to wedding photographers for example).

              What I was more concerned with was whether denying service to a business based on my own personally held beliefs constituted grounds for a valid lawsuit in the U.S.

              Which question I suppose cannot be rightly answered other than by a lawyer whom I cannot at present afford LOL.

              So I guess there is no real answer to this apart from the input of a lawyer such that the best I can do is just create the site, deny various business my services (assuming I become very successful as a directory) for whatever reasons, and hope for the best.

              When all is said and done, as much as I don't like many aspects of U.S. culture, I have to admit that the U.S. is probably the best country in the world at this point to start a website business and deny others (either individuals or businesses) my services for any of the number of issues I raised.

              There is still a modicum of freedom to do such here I think though how long that will last is hard to say.

              Carlos
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Brownsword
      I'd definitely talk to a lawyer and ensure that your website terms are in order (something along the lines of "we reserve the right to refuse to do business with any entity for any reason -- or for no reason whatsoever"), but I don't see any reason why you would be forced to do business with somebody you don't want to do business with.

      If I can offer one suggestion, I would NOT say "why" you don't want to do business with somebody -- EVER -- nor would I post articles about personal views on a website like you want to build. As an example, I'd never do business with left-handed Pit Bull / Siamese mixes because I think they're cuter than I (and sometimes nicer!) and am extremely jealous, but I'd just say that I'd don't want to do business with them and leave it at that. At the very least, I'd make up some bogus excuse ("we've reached capacity -- check back after we expand in 2050...").

      HTH,
      Tom
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      • Profile picture of the author carlos123
        Originally Posted by Tom Brownsword View Post

        I'd definitely talk to a lawyer and ensure that your website terms are in order (something along the lines of "we reserve the right to refuse to do business with any entity for any reason -- or for no reason whatsoever"), but I don't see any reason why you would be forced to do business with somebody you don't want to do business with.

        If I can offer one suggestion, I would NOT say "why" you don't want to do business with somebody -- EVER -- nor would I post articles about personal views on a website like you want to build. As an example, I'd never do business with left-handed Pit Bull / Siamese mixes because I think they're cuter than I (and sometimes nicer!) and am extremely jealous, but I'd just say that I'd don't want to do business with them and leave it at that. At the very least, I'd make up some bogus excuse ("we've reached capacity -- check back after we expand in 2050...").

        HTH,
        Tom
        I like your suggestion about not going into the details of why I might not want to do business with certain businesses Tom. Good suggestion.

        Although in certain cases there is simply no way around being up front about those reasons I think.

        For example how do you tell a wedding photography business that they can't be a part of your directory after having allowed two others in the same town to be included without explicitly explaining why not (in this hypothetical case...because they don't make themselves available to take photos of same sex couples for example)?

        I mean you would have to say something I think. You couldn't just arbitrarily, or seemingly so, say no to some and yes to others.

        I mean you could but such might lead to troublesome consequences up to and including a lawsuit if your directory was very successful (like the Yellow Pages) and you were excluding some businesses for no seemingly valid and stated reason.

        On the other hand if you state the reasons clearly you might mitigate some of that trouble in that businesses would know in no uncertain terms why you might have denied them service.

        I could make up a reason for sure, such as the site is too full or some such...but, that's just not me to make up stuff like that.

        Carlos
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      • Profile picture of the author carlos123
        Originally Posted by Tom Brownsword View Post

        I'd definitely talk to a lawyer...
        Tom
        LOL

        Yeah...when I figure out how to make sufficient income over the internet so as to be able to pay for a lawyer...I definitely will!

        Carlos
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  • Profile picture of the author LegionNate
    I totally skipped all the responses here, so someone might have mentioned, but that phrase "we refuse the right to do business with anybody" comes to mind. You see a variation of that from time to time in different places.

    Anyway, not legal advice or anything.

    Also... does it suck that we live in such a litigious society that we feel we need to make disclaimers like that?

    I'm still not a lawyer.
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by LegionNate View Post

      I totally skipped all the responses here, so someone might have mentioned, but that phrase "we refuse the right to do business with anybody" comes to mind. You see a variation of that from time to time in different places.
      Yeah...I think that's what I will do. Just put out a typical "I refuse to do business with anybody" ah...hmm...I meant..."I refuse to do business with anyone for any reason at any time" LOL

      Or some such.

      Better yet, I won't make a directory that anyone can come along to and just fill out a form to be included in. I will personally reach out and invite businesses that I want in the directory and make it plain that entry is by invitation only at my complete discretion. Kind of an exclusive thing.

      Yeah...I like that. That's what I will do.

      Problem solved .

      Carlos
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by LegionNate View Post

      Also... does it suck that we live in such a litigious society that we feel we need to make disclaimers like that?
      Yeah...when you live outside the U.S. for a while...it's a real eye opener regarding how all tied up like in a straight jacket we are here with respect to the fear of being sued and seemingly orienting everything around trying not to be.

      It's a refreshing change living in another country for a while where people and businesses really don't care about such things much and just do the best they can to offer whatever they offer and leave it at that.

      Carlos
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  • Profile picture of the author HelpingYouBeAnExpert
    I think you can deny whoever you want but i'm not a lawyer I just believe you have the liberty to do business with whoever you want
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    Ummmm.. yeah I don't think the yellow pages would be sued. On what grounds? It isn't discriminatory as far as employment or housing goes. You can decide who goes on and who doesn't. Just say all applicants are subject to approval, you do not allow anyone to know your approval process.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Carlos, you're looking at this the wrong way.

      If you feel strongly enough about some issue that you would turn away business because of a company's take on that issue, odds are that you are not alone.

      Which means you could separate yourself from general directories and carve off a piece of the market for yourself. Build a directory of only businesses that agree with your stance. For example, you could create a directory of "cruelty free cosmetics sellers" or whatever.

      Position your directory that way from the start, and lay out who you want. Then you won't have to worry about the legality of exclusion.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I agree with John...to a point.

        whose position on various things
        That's the point. If you refuse ads that use animal testing - say so up front and you'll find many will agree with you.

        However, if you are saying you want only ads that meet multiple requirements I think that's a bad idea. A photographer is in business to take pictures - not to make moral judgments.

        Several of the examples you give are ones that would turn me away from advertising with you on principle. I would not be interested in advertising on a site that appeared narrow minded or judgmental - even if I personally agreed with your position on the subject.

        There's a difference (to me) in saying you don't support cruelty or certain business practices.....and in saying ads must support your personally held belief system/religious views/political stance.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author carlos123
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          If you refuse ads that use animal testing - say so up front and you'll find many will agree with you.
          Admittedly though...well...animal testing was not really the issue that caused me to ask about this.

          What really caused me to ask about this was my comtemplating the creation of a directory for wedding photographers.

          I am not yet sure I will go into that niche per se but aside from whether there is still potential for yet another directory in that niche...the thought of helping to promote photographers through my directory who support gay marriage in both their public stance and their business practice was something that in good conscience I did not feel I could do.

          I mean where they blatantly advertise to take photographs of gay weddings.

          Whatever you may think of my conscience regarding this issue or the issue itself that is what caused me to ask. Along with my experience of this exact issue in Canada, not personally but watching Christian business owners get slammed by a legal system that did not allow for their principal stand against providing business services to those who radically wanted to promote their gay agenda.

          One printer for example was brought before the Human Rights Commission there and fined $5000 and more for refusing to print gay promoting literature. In another case a school teacher was fired for publicly stating his opposition to this lifestyle on his own time.

          There are many other cases.

          There are a number of court cases now before the courts in the U.S. were organizations or businesses have refused service connected with the promotion of the gay lifestyle. The grounds being discrimination.

          It's only a matter of time before somebody decides to sue a Christian who owns a successful website and who does not want to service the needs of individuals or business owners who are pro-what have you that does not line up with their Christian beliefs.

          Even yesterday I read of the Obama administration forcing Catholic hospitals, Social Service agencies, and the like to start paying (or helping to pay) for health insurance that provides contraception or even abortions which is completely against their religious beliefs and something they absolutely cannot support.

          These are the types of issues that were on my mind when I asked about this.

          Again please do not focus on the issues themselves, as much as some of you may be tempted to hijack this thread and make it about the issues.

          The issue, for purposes of this thread, was and is whether or not one can deny business to any other business (or individual) based on the kinds of issues I have raised. Whether doing so opens one up to lawsuits in the U.S.

          However, if you are saying you want only ads that meet multiple requirements I think that's a bad idea. A photographer is in business to take pictures - not to make moral judgments.
          In general I agree. But when a photographer begins to advertise their services to gay couples wanting to be married that is when I cannot in good conscience support such a photographer either with my personal business as in wanting to use them for my own wedding and or through my directory of wedding photographers.

          Wrong, right, or indifferent. Doesn't matter for purposes of this thread. My conscience bothers me about supporting such a photographer and I must follow my conscience wherever it leads.

          Several of the examples you give are ones that would turn me away from advertising with you on principle. I would not be interested in advertising on a site that appeared narrow minded or judgmental - even if I personally agreed with your position on the subject.
          I understand and I would have no problem with you not wanting to advertise on my web site directory as such. My problem if with those who might come along and want to force me through the legal system to allow them to advertise on my site when in good conscience I feel I cannot allow them to do that.

          There's a difference (to me) in saying you don't support cruelty or certain business practices.....and in saying ads must support your personally held belief system/religious views/political stance.

          kay
          Not sure I agree with that Kay in that it seems to me that not supporting cruelty to animals is no less a personally held belief than not supporting homosexual marriage, abortion, or any number of other beliefs. These are all personally held beliefs in that we personally hold them to be important and presumably live by them as far as our life and actions lining up with what we say we believe.

          Just as you would undoubtedly not want me to force my beliefs on you in your business so likewise I would not want others to force their beliefs on me.

          Carlos
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      • Profile picture of the author carlos123
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Carlos, you're looking at this the wrong way.

        If you feel strongly enough about some issue that you would turn away business because of a company's take on that issue, odds are that you are not alone.

        Which means you could separate yourself from general directories and carve off a piece of the market for yourself. Build a directory of only businesses that agree with your stance. For example, you could create a directory of "cruelty free cosmetics sellers" or whatever.

        Position your directory that way from the start, and lay out who you want. Then you won't have to worry about the legality of exclusion.
        An excellent point John. In fact I thought of that just yesterday before I read your comment above.

        Carlos
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  • Profile picture of the author sbishop
    I managed apartment complexes for 3 years. The bigest problem we had was proving that everything we did could not be called discrimination.

    Housing is highly targeted for for discrimination lawsuits.

    You will want to be careful
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    • Profile picture of the author carlos123
      Originally Posted by sbishop View Post

      I managed apartment complexes for 3 years. The bigest problem we had was proving that everything we did could not be called discrimination.

      Housing is highly targeted for for discrimination lawsuits.

      You will want to be careful
      Indeed.

      One reason I won't touch housing keyword phrases or websites with a ten foot pole. Especially not here in California where I live.

      While I don't mind, in one sense, being sued for reasons that are not valid, I also don't want to wade into an ocean of potential lawsuits by targeting certain phrases and having to navigate around the lawsuit minefields that lie there.

      Carlos
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