Jesse Willms Loses Everything to FTC

by LukePeerFly 79 replies
I was just reading this and it absolutely blew my mind:
Jesse Willms Loses Everything to FTC

The settlement also fines him $359 Million in cash, which will be suspended as long as Willms turns over pretty much everything that he owns. The order requires him to sell his house, close the and sell all his companies, cars, furs, and expensive artwork.
No wonder the FTC is cracking down so hard on our industry
#main internet marketing discussion forum #ftc #jesse #loses #willms
  • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
    I spoke to a friend in the know, and they said that this includes his "hidden" bank accounts, etc. He needs to give all the money back, and if he doesn't.... I'm told as part of the deal, the Canadian Authorities are holding off a criminal prosecution.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hlatky
    I am confused as to what he actually did?
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Yep, I'd like to know more about what he did constitutes as fraud, also.

    Guess Google is my friend on this one. Maybe some reading for much later tonight when I have time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Michael
    It sounds like he was an advertiser who didn't properly disclose all information.

    He pushed his offers via CPA networks, and unsuspecting "leads" were charged without notice.

    Long story short, of course. lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Centurian
      Originally Posted by Mike Hlatky View Post

      I am confused as to what he actually did?
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      Yep, I'd like to know more about what he did constitutes as fraud, also.

      Guess Google is my friend on this one. Maybe some reading for much later tonight when I have time.
      There are a number of issues here. These typically start with "health claims," which the medical establishment always targets. That's usually what attracts attention. A savvy copywriter can avoid crossing the line, but if you've got other issues they'll get you there.

      It sounds like he was doing "negative billing subscriptions;" where your forced in and have to opt out. By the time you call and cancel, they've collected a couple of months. And of course you were required to give 30 days notice to cancel. We all hate those anyway.

      Frankly, this rash of "negative opt-ins" we had for some time is why merchant banks became leery of internet marketing and recurring billing.

      Nevertheless, these agencies are targeting entrepreneurs at all levels, online and offline. Some deserve it. Some don't.
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  • Profile picture of the author larksky000005
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I think "bogus" is the key here.

    And the debiting of bank accounts without the proper permissions. Um, yeah.

    Doesn't damn the whole industry, of course. Just be ethical and do things by the book. These things don't scare me because I know I'm not going to get into anything like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author sunray
    It's very usual that trial offers must be canceled when no interest in buying the full product. Health subjects are under the control of Big Pharma which operates quite like a mafia, financing governmental institutions so they prohibit alternative methods, natural remedies etc.

    I'm just not buying the story presented by Canadian socialist authorities. Maybe they have a point, maybe the guy did something wrong, I have no information. But what I see on his website, gives a picture of a caring man with dozens of charity projects. Criminal minds usually do not run charities.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by sunray View Post

      I'm just not buying the story presented by Canadian socialist authorities. Maybe they have a point, maybe the guy did something wrong, I have no information. But what I see on his website, gives a picture of a caring man with dozens of charity projects. Criminal minds usually do not run charities.
      Criminal minds who bilked people out of millions of dollars by charging them for stuff they did not want and did not order can put whatever public relations propoganda on their websites that they want to ... he's still a lowlife scam artist.
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      • Profile picture of the author sunray
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Criminal minds who bilked people out of millions of dollars by charging them for stuff they did not want and did not order can put whatever public relations propoganda on their websites that they want to ... he's still a lowlife scam artist.
        As I said, it very usual that a trial offer must be canceled, and if not, it is taken as an order and the account is charged. It's SO common.
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        • Profile picture of the author r30ducez
          I'm surprised he got away with it for as long as he did, $350 Million doesn't happen over nite.
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          • Profile picture of the author sunray
            Originally Posted by r30ducez View Post

            I'm surprised he got away with it for as long as he did, $350 Million doesn't happen over nite.
            It really doesn't. There must have been something else that triggered it now. Maybe he decided to use his money in politics in a politically incorrect way? Or maybe some of his info-products exposed somebody?
            Could a Canadian shed some light on it?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              It really doesn't. There must have been something else that triggered it now. Maybe he decided to use his money in politics in a politically incorrect way? Or maybe some of his info-products exposed somebody?
              Investigations like this don't happen overnight either. And there has to be some time involved in the selling before they start.

              I understand skepticism. Really, I do. But why would you need to reach for conspiracy theories in a case like this? If he did what they say, he was way over the line.

              I don't know this guy's business practices. I do know that the things they're describing are disturbingly common in the CPA end of online advertising. Enough so that I feel dirty even going into the CPA sub-forum of this forum to deal with a reported spam there.

              Wouldn't hurt my feelings if Allen just deleted the whole section.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                I do know that the things they're describing are disturbingly common in the CPA end of online advertising. Enough so that I feel dirty even going into the CPA sub-forum of this forum to deal with a reported spam there.

                Wouldn't hurt my feelings if Allen just deleted the whole section.
                I thought that forum was to discuss advertising methods and not end offers. CPC, CPM, CPV, CPA and CPL are all valid ways to advertise an affiliate offer and generate traffic to your own site/product. There is some real gold in that forum for people who like paid traffic.

                Dodgey rebills, products, and low-life scum are the problem and they can't be isolated to one advertising method.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Troy,
                  There is some real gold in that forum for people who like paid traffic.
                  Yep. And you're right in saying those methods can all be used in legitimate ways.

                  Let's just say that the things I see in the CPA industry don't lead me to a good opinion of it as a whole.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Troy,Yep. And you're right in saying those methods can all be used in legitimate ways.

                    Let's just say that the things I see in the CPA industry don't lead me to a good opinion of it as a whole.


                    Paul
                    LOL! I second your opinion Paul.

                    Personally, I have found that you can make money using every single method discussed here at WF because I have done it myself...with the exception of CPA...something about that whole process never sat right with me.

                    I always felt like it was tricking people or forcing them in some way...just my opinion.
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        • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
          Originally Posted by sunray View Post

          As I said, it very usual that a trial offer must be canceled, and if not, it is taken as an order and the account is charged. It's SO common.
          it doesn't make it right just because it's so common.

          trial offers are one thing...but you know the ones that you pay for the trial offer, and within a few hours you're charged for the full price which is often not even disclosed, or if it was disclosed, it was very very fine print, that is often unreadable.

          That is a scummy way to do business, in my humble opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brian John
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Criminal minds who bilked people out of millions of dollars by charging them for stuff they did not want and did not order can put whatever public relations propoganda on their websites that they want to ... he's still a lowlife scam artist.
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      • Profile picture of the author buckeyes09
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Criminal minds who bilked people out of millions of dollars by charging them for stuff they did not want and did not order can put whatever public relations propoganda on their websites that they want to ... he's still a lowlife scam artist.
        Granted, I'm extremely cynical, but how many people "rich" people don't donate? If nothing but PR, they do.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Here's the problem - this wasn't just "trial offer".

          The ads were "FREE trial offer".

          I'm surprised at the number of consumers who will give credit card info to obtain a "free" offer. If it's free - why would anyone need your credit card?
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          • Profile picture of the author nickdamodda
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Here's the problem - this wasn't just "trial offer".

            The ads were "FREE trial offer".

            I'm surprised at the number of consumers who will give credit card info to obtain a "free" offer. If it's free - why would anyone need your credit card?
            "shipping and handling"
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            • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
              Originally Posted by nickdamodda View Post

              "shipping and handling"
              Yes... S & H...

              I frequently receive free samples in the mail for things I never asked for. So I will not necessarily agree with the S&H thing. I guess it all depends on the particulars, maybe.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Here's the problem - this wasn't just "trial offer".

            The ads were "FREE trial offer".

            I'm surprised at the number of consumers who will give credit card info to obtain a "free" offer. If it's free - why would anyone need your credit card?
            I did and nowhere on the site that was visible to me could I find anything about automatically being enrolled to receive more crap every month. The credit card was supposed to be for a $4.95 shipping and handling fee. I was then charged $90/mnth for something I never ordered or knowingly authorized for three months and the only way to get rid of it was to get rid of my credit card that I used. Suffice it to say that I have a very low opinion of this type of "marketing."
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    • Profile picture of the author mightiest
      Originally Posted by sunray View Post

      It's very usual that trial offers must be canceled when no interest in buying the full product. Health subjects are under the control of Big Pharma which operates quite like a mafia, financing governmental institutions so they prohibit alternative methods, natural remedies etc.

      I'm just not buying the story presented by Canadian socialist authorities. Maybe they have a point, maybe the guy did something wrong, I have no information. But what I see on his website, gives a picture of a caring man with dozens of charity projects. Criminal minds usually do not run charities.
      No offense, but you're just terribly misinformed. Jesse Willms was the first guy to launch the Wu Yi Tea diet as a product back in 2006. He pushed these pills onto affiliate networks (Advaliant was the first) and then started running huge volume. He quickly switched to **** berries + colon cleanse and was the driving force behind its surge in 2007-2009.

      That's not illegal, but the rest of it is.

      He sold his product as a "free" trial. You pay $5.00 shipping and get 10 days to evaluate the product. If you don't want it you must call in and cancel your subscription. This tactic is called negative option rebilling and is completely legal. What isn't legal is when you make it nearly impossible for people to cancel.

      Jesse's companies would typically take 3-4 days to process your order and then it would take 3 more days for it to arrive at your house. He started your evaluation period the second you ordered the product, which means you had less than 4 days to evaluate it. Most people didn't even realize it was a rebill because they buried their terms and conditions in a tiny link at the bottom of their landers.

      Anyway, that wasn't the worst part. To boost profits, Jesse would upsell customers and, at it's worst, people were getting nailed with a $400 dollar bill for a "free" product ($80 for product + $320 in automatic upsells). That's illegal.

      Even if you realized you had to cancel, doing was nearly impossible. At Affiliate Summit West in 09 there was a famous meeting between people I won't name, including Jesse. They were negotiating the terms of the next series of **** Berry offers and the networks, which were getting heat at this point for carrying these products, basically asked all the merchants to pull out their cell phones and call their call centers right there on the spot to see how long it took to get a person on the phone. Two hours later and most of the phones were still on hold.

      If you got through to someone, they made your life a living hell when you tried to cancel. Cancelling online was equally as convoluted.

      To add insult to injury, Jesse ran a lot of these products directly. He and two other guys were the originators of the Becky's Weight Loss style of Flog and they were the first guys to push out landers that pushed both **** and colon cleanse at the same time. The FTC has called this type of marketing, where you create fake profiles, make insane claims, and pretend to be a customer to be completely illegal.

      Here is the bulk of the complaint:

      -debiting consumers' bank accounts without first obtaining their express verifiable authorization;
      -misrepresenting any product or service or the terms and conditions associated with any offer, specifically including claims of "free," "risk-free," or "trial offer;"
      -failing to clearly disclose the terms and conditions of any offer, including refund terms, before requesting consumers' payment information;
      -making misleading or unsubstantiated disease-prevention, weight-loss, and other health-related claims;
      -using false or deceptive endorsements and testimonials;
      -failing to monitor the activities of marketing affiliates and affiliate networks involved in the marketing of any Willms product or service; and
      -making misrepresentations in order to obtain services from payment processors, banks, and other third parties.
      Oh and Jesse got sued out of the ass by Microsoft a few years earlier for buying education versions of software in Canada and then reselling it in the US at retail price. I can't post links yet, so the complaint is titled:

      Microsoft Corp. v. eDirectSoftware, Jesse Willms, Linda Willms, Dave Willms, 1016363 Alberta Ltd., 1021018 Alberta Ltd. and John Does 1–10

      Edit: I just want to add that he scammed upwards of 4 million people with the **** / colon cleanse combo.
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  • Profile picture of the author sunray
    mightiest,

    I see. Well, yes, what you have described seems indeed over the line, as Paul said. Thank you taking the time to explain it to me :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mikal Laster
    You can Never Hide!
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  • Profile picture of the author THK
    If those claims are true, the guy is not really an honest person. Good to know that the problem here is the person, not the industry.

    It should not be that difficult to not commit a fraud.

    Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben Gordon
    This guy is talented, he just misused his talent. He saw openings in the market and went for them to make some quick bucks; typical action that young marketers make. Honestly, he definitely deserves the punishment and I totally agree with what the FTC is doing, but he's going to get his money back and probably start business again in another niche. We just have to beware of these kinds of business practices and not encourage them.
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  • Profile picture of the author tayuyaa
    He had it coming...these kind of people need to be stopped and reap what they sow...I'm glad I never promoted such offers...

    edit: Let's hope Ben Gordon is wrong and that he'll never start business again!
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  • Profile picture of the author nickdamodda
    Sounds like he didn't know how to protect himself.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    The FTC should mandate that no business may ask for CC info for a 'free trial offer.'

    Re Paul Myers' comments about CPA...

    I got burned so badly by CPA networks back in 06 that it cured me of them. Many of them are just as sleazy and criminal as the guy talked about in the OP.

    I was acquainted with someone years ago who walked out of a CPA network, well known at the time, over things she thought were highly improper and wrong (on the part of the network house). She was an account manager.

    Then there's this article that arrived in my inbox just this morning.

    Is Epic the Next COPEAC? Non-Payment Stories Grow.

    I think those who are serious and professional in the CPA industry should form an oversight group or watchdog group to whom all networks should be accountable. It's like this... if there is no internal oversight within an industry with chronic and visible problems, rest assured some other agency will do it for them.


    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author ShaneGorry
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post


      I think those who are serious and professional in the CPA industry should form an oversight group or watchdog group to whom all networks should be accountable. It's like this... if there is no internal oversight within an industry with chronic and visible problems, rest assured some other agency will do it for them.


      Ken
      It certainly makes sense to take control of your own industry rather then to have controls forced onto you from the outside.

      Also I have to wonder who gets the "everything" he is losing any of it going to the "victims?"
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      • Profile picture of the author wizzard74
        Originally Posted by ShaneGorry View Post

        It certainly makes sense to take control of your own industry rather then to have controls forced onto you from the outside.

        Also I have to wonder who gets the "everything" he is losing any of it going to the "victims?"
        I would think his victims would have to sue him seperately to get any money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Jesse Willms Loses Everything to FTC

    How does a man loose something that was never his in the first place ?
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  • Profile picture of the author skagenweb
    I must say, he is a freaking genius though. Evil, but simply genius. One-third of a billion dollars through online marketing is something to be proud of.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

      I must say, he is a freaking genius though. Evil, but simply genius. One-third of a billion dollars through online marketing is something to be proud of.

      Yeah, the genius can be very proud of himself for bilking millions out of unsuspecting customers and having the law remove everything he owns from him. Pure genius. Seriously. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author dcristo
      Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

      I must say, he is a freaking genius though. Evil, but simply genius. One-third of a billion dollars through online marketing is something to be proud of.
      wow some people really are stupid, just when i thought i had seen it all.
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      • Profile picture of the author skagenweb
        Originally Posted by dcristo View Post

        wow some people really are stupid, just when i thought i had seen it all.
        I was not aware that you had made more than 360 million dollars in IM. My mistake..
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        • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
          The guy was really stupid, as most criminals are. He thought he could get away with it.

          It's not just this, he also did a auction site that never gave away anything, never refunded money, had a fake customer service...

          The guy in my opinion is a crook, a fraudster. THis is not internet marketing, this is not online advertising -- this is robbery.

          Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

          I was not aware that you had made more than 360 million dollars in IM. My mistake..
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        • Profile picture of the author dcristo
          Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

          I was not aware that you had made more than 360 million dollars in IM. My mistake..
          You must have a ton of credibility idolizing criminals. I guess when you're marketing things online anonymously it's all fair play, right?

          Moron.
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          • Profile picture of the author skagenweb
            Originally Posted by dcristo View Post

            You must have a ton of credibility idolizing criminals. I guess when you're marketing things online anonymously it's all fair play, right?

            Moron.
            Yes, I realize what he did was wrong - but I can still admire his success at being a criminal. $360 million a sh*t load of money to make - even if it is illigitimately obtained. Don't find many ordinary crooks making that much.
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            • Profile picture of the author dcristo
              Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

              Yes, I realize what he did was wrong - but I can still admire his success at being a criminal. $360 million a sh*t load of money to make - even if it is illigitimately obtained. Don't find many ordinary crooks making that much.
              Does it interest you that much because you can never make decent coin legitimately?
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              • Profile picture of the author skagenweb
                Originally Posted by dcristo View Post

                Does it interest you that much because you can never make decent coin legitimately?
                No, because it is A TON OF MONEY. Full stop.
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                • Profile picture of the author IntellectualCapital
                  Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

                  No, because it is A TON OF MONEY. Full stop.
                  Maybe you should rephrase. I don't think you mean it this way, but your remarks amount to "Man, you can say what you want, but Bernie Madoff made a lot of money!" He did, but he made it by simple deception and theft. It's not that hard to do, it's just that most people won't do it because of the risk and whatever morals they may possess. What's hard is to actually build a fund and manage billions. That's really, really hard.

                  Now, you can admire that he was able to identify a nascent niche and build a business concept that would have done well even if he hadn't gone bad. That, you can admire and nobody would have criticized you. How many people wish they could have seen the **** trend coming?

                  What you shouldn't admire is his ability to see the types of "loopholes" he was exploiting. We don't see those loopholes because we're not looking for them. At some unconscious level, we are looking for legitimate opportunities, and these weren't in that category.
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                • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
                  Do me a favor, PM me your address in the UK.I will fly over there, knock down the door, steal all your ****, sexually abuse your dog, and then pack all your computers, playstation, dirty porn in a truck and steal it.

                  Then please send me a message about how great I am.

                  Stealing is Stealing. Period.

                  Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

                  No, because it is A TON OF MONEY. Full stop.
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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

              Yes, I realize what he did was wrong - but I can still admire his success at being a criminal. $360 million a sh*t load of money to make - even if it is illigitimately obtained. Don't find many ordinary crooks making that much.
              I think it speaks volumes about you that you admire a criminal who was able to make a "****load" of money by defrauding customers out of it.

              Mental note: Do not click on signature links in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
      No its not, and I'm tired of seeing people glorify people like this. There are legit ways to make money, and doing things illegally or preying on customers, consumers is not the way.

      He's a fraudster and was caught - he has been under investigation for years. Consumers are smart now, they report fraud, they go after the fraudsters.

      Originally Posted by skagenweb View Post

      I must say, he is a freaking genius though. Evil, but simply genius. One-third of a billion dollars through online marketing is something to be proud of.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Freaking genius?

    Stealing from people while you hide from contact doesn't make you a genius. It makes you a thief - that got caught. Hardly smart!
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    • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

      Freaking genius?

      Stealing from people while you hide from contact doesn't make you a genius. It makes you a thief - that got caught. Hardly smart!
      I agree with you. Thiefs are disgusting.

      But like said, not many people can make this kind of money through online marketing. He was smart, just not smart enough to not get caught.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Huynh
    Luke, was this advertiser a part of the Peerfly network? If any networks allow this person to be a customer, then they should accept some of the consequences. Just sayin...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    The Willms settlement order also permanently prohibits Willms from ever engaging in any business that works by:
    • debiting consumers’ bank accounts without first obtaining their express verifiable authorization;
    • misrepresenting any product or service or the terms and conditions associated with any offer, specifically including claims of “free,” “risk-free,” or “trial offer;”
    • failing to clearly disclose the terms and conditions of any offer, including refund terms, before requesting consumers’ payment information;
    • making misleading or unsubstantiated disease-prevention, weight-loss, and other health-related claims;
    • using false or deceptive endorsements and testimonials;
    • failing to monitor the activities of marketing affiliates and affiliate networks involved in the marketing of any Willms product or service; and
    • making misrepresentations in order to obtain services from payment processors, banks, and other third parties.
    Wasn't he (along with everyone else) already permanently prohibited from doing this? :confused:
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

      Wasn't he (along with everyone else) already permanently prohibited from doing this? :confused:
      Yes of course, but there's plenty of people who don't abide by the law, particularly when they think they can make millions.

      This kind of marketing is precisely why the FTC has deemed it necessary to create more rules and oversight of the industry. We can all thank criminals like him for that.
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    • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
      Yes, of course - however, it means that if he ever does it, the settlement is out the window and he gets %&$#ed really hard by the FTC

      Originally Posted by Kierkegaard View Post

      Wasn't he (along with everyone else) already permanently prohibited from doing this? :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author planetlubs
    I think for Jesse, he saw it coming. But the only irony is where it says he failed to monitor the activities of his affiliates and how they were promoting his services.

    I think we need to pay attention to that. Do you monitor the way your affiliates market your products? And how they represent it to the prospective customers?
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by planetlubs View Post

      I think we need to pay attention to that. Do you monitor the way your affiliates market your products? And how they represent it to the prospective customers?
      I thought this needed to be in a bigger font.
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    • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
      One done and quite a few more to go. I don't like govt intervention, but if that what it takes to keep an industry clean then so be it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Wilhite
    Unfortunately when one guy does something deemed illegal and is exposed, it affects the other good guys in the same niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author virtualprincipal
    Just another example of why IM has such a bad name. I started an SEO company but have been unable to take orders by phone because no processor including PayPal will do business with an SEO firm that has recurring billing. A few bad apples really does spoil the barrel....
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  • Profile picture of the author pacelattin
    THe guy was intimately involved - I've covered him for years and he's threatened me via his attorneys and other publications.
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  • Profile picture of the author dcristo
    Cool story bro. One to tell your cell inmates.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnnaSEO
    Right action by the FTC and now the holds are tight towards scammers.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    it's sad so many "Warriors" actually do not see what he did as wrong....Still, I guess it does attract that kind of "person."

    I'll bet there are quite a few here and on the Net who think like this:


    I must say, he is a freaking genius though. Evil, but simply genius. One-third of a billion dollars through online marketing is something to be proud of.
    Notice how skagenweb doesn't revela his real name? False picture as well. Scumbag. Beware. If he ever releases a WSO you'd be a fool to even think about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    are you kidding? I guess some people admire Hitler that he could mass kill millions as well. Takes all sort but to "look upto " a crook....that takes the biscuit.


    Originally Posted by skagenweb
    Yes, I realize what he did was wrong - but I can still admire his success at being a criminal. $360 million a sh*t load of money to make - even if it is illigitimately obtained. Don't find many ordinary crooks making that much.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Correction! He made f*** all!

    I was not aware that you had made more than 360 million dollars in IM. My mistake..
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Agreed but it's a LOT more than a few...

    Just another example of why IM has such a bad name. I started an SEO company but have been unable to take orders by phone because no processor including PayPal will do business with an SEO firm that has recurring billing. A few bad apples really does spoil the barrel....
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    Wish I'd read this pre 2009. Agreed.

    Re Paul Myers' comments about CPA...

    I got burned so badly by CPA networks back in 06 that it cured me of them. Many of them are just as sleazy and criminal as the guy talked about in the OP.

    I was acquainted with someone years ago who walked out of a CPA network, well known at the time, over things she thought were highly improper and wrong (on the part of the network house). She was an account manager.

    Then there's this article that arrived in my inbox just this morning.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    It's amazing how much "crimality/scamming" big "trusted" companies do as well. I presume they have a team of lawyers looking at how far they can "legally" bend the rules. Cat and mouse!

    Banks and insurance companies fleece us on the small print all the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    B*S* Hypocrit! So h'e disgusting for what being a thief or getting caught?

    Too many think like this......wonder what they do?

    I agree with you. Thiefs are disgusting.

    But like said, not many people can make this kind of money through online marketing. He was smart, just not smart enough to not get caught.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by sloanjim View Post

      Too many think like this......wonder what they do?
      Forget the question of how you personally want to make your money.

      This is how an increasing number of your customers and colleagues make theirs.

      No matter what you think of it, the world we live in is full of these people, and we work in a relationship business.

      You don't have to make your money off lying and stealing and cheating, but on some level you should learn to be okay doing business with people who do.

      If you go to an IM seminar, you'll be surrounded by these people. They're everywhere. And if you can't smile and make nice while you make the rounds, they've got no problem launching a lying cheating thieving torpedo at your reputation behind your back.

      Basic self-defence. You don't go around Compton bitching about the drug dealers on the corner, because they're within earshot and have guns. If you want to bitch about drug dealers, go to Brentwood.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  • Profile picture of the author JohnBenwell
    Scam artists all the way.

    Let the law decide if he's guilty or not and put him into jail if that's what he deserves.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author sunray
    Just to clarify my position on this, in case if some may think I also admire him because of the earned millions--I don't. Why I questioned it, was mainly because too often behind an accusation of "making misleading or unsubstantiated disease-prevention and health-related claims" stands FDA or another similar institution, just making way to Big Pharma to market their products at an ever increasing rate, at the same time strangling alternative methods that are often much better and safer. And, the charity thing also drew attention.

    But, if the accusations are correct and people indeed didn't have an opportunity to cancel their payments, it was just stealing their money.

    The main point is alway about giving. Is a person a giver or a grabber. Rich or poor, popular or unpopular, this is what counts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Ogbin
    The thief is always a thief. He manipulate people by charging them insane money without their permission and thinking that is the smartest one in the planet.

    But at the end he got what he deserves "The FTC alleges Willms and his business partners used “Free Trial Offers” to get people’s credit or debit card numbers in order to bill them for products and services they did not want and did not agree to purchase."

    Beware : Just Think Media Products – Spam and Scams | webcops.net

    he has been taken to court by Microsoft and Symantec for software piracy and also ran a govt grants scam: Symantec sues 8 firms for $55M, alleges counterfeiting - Technology & Science - CBC News

    I remember the scandal of Bernard L. Madoff, he admitted that the wealth management arm of his business was an elaborate Ponzi scheme. On June 29, 2009, he was sentenced to 150 years in prison with restitution of $170 billion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jon Penberthy
    Sure it's an eye opener but goes to show that applying with the FTC is important in anything you do online.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr.Daydream
    He's a Canadian citizen, I don't know why the FBI has to get involved
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