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List Building: Building a Relationship is NOT Always the Best Approach

by E. Brian Rose
29 replies
You hear the same advice again and again, "Build a relationship with your subscribers", "Don't just mail offers", "Send emails with value and free stuff".

Is this good advice? The answer is not a flat out "yes". A better answer would be "sometimes".

The advice quoted above would apply to a marketer who has a goal of making a name for himself, building a personal reputation, and a long term plan of marketing his own products or affiliate products to his list.

That advice is not the best for trying to close a one off sale.

Here are a couple of examples.

Example 1. A visitor searches for "make money online" and finds your squeeze page. You offer an ebook with some simple strategies to get started in exchange for an email address. This is the type of opt-in list that would benefit from knowing you are an expert in the field and really know your stuff. You will want to take your time writing a series of emails that show you are willing to share your knowledge, as well as recommend only products that will help readers build a business over time.

Example 2. A visitor searches for "wedding invitations" and finds your website that sells invitations (either your business or via affiliate links). Your site offers a free guide on how to find the best deals on wedding invitations in exchange for an email address. This visitor is in need of a specific product and most likely, they need it now. Your follow-up emails need to take this into account. If you waste time sending a series of get to know me emails, you will likely lose the sale to a competitor. Even a series of emails about how to choose card stock, ink, colors, etc. would likely result in you losing the sale. This subscriber is a hot prospect that knows what he/she needs. Any good closer knows this person will react best to a hard sell. Don't waste this potential customer by giving them information they will use to shop around and find what they need elsewhere.

Bottom line is to know who your prospects are. Are they potential long term customers or are they potential one off customers? Once you know what your prospect wants, you will know whether to take the get to know me approach or hard sell approach. Not knowing will cost you sales.

Just some food for thought.
#approach #building #list #relationship #sales
  • Profile picture of the author grover69
    Good point. Some lists/relationships are all about immediate gratification. I have a couple lists like that. And some aren't even lists, just websites, because there is no point in further communication. They want something and they want it now. These cases aren't that often, but they do happen. Understanding who your market is makes the difference. Sometimes it is about giving your customers exactly what they want, when they want it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      It's possible to build a relationship AND make offers at
      the same time.

      It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

      The fact of the matter is that people buy when they're
      ready to buy, NOT just when you're ready to sell.

      If you include offers to buy in your content at all stages,
      you allow people to buy when they're most ready to buy.

      There's a lot of factors that influence what the best
      approach is for a given target market, product offer
      and e-mail marketer.

      When you understand who you're marketing to, what they
      really want and will pay for, then you can send them e-mail
      content and offers that meet their specific situation.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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      • Profile picture of the author fenixpro
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post


        When you understand who you're marketing to, what they
        really want and will pay for, then you can send them e-mail
        content and offers that meet their specific situation.
        I completely agree. And yet, it's variable and partially depends on, in what way do you build and manage your list. Are you building it with the idea of truly keeping long term subs or is it more of a roll over type list that will grow in size but have a higher turnover rate. Both can be extremely profitable and yet, totally different in terms of relationship. I think being different, sincere and offering quality is the key - regardless if you are mailing 2x / day or 2x / week or 2x / month.
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        • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
          Originally Posted by fenixpro View Post

          I think being different, sincere and offering quality is the key - regardless if you are mailing 2x / day or 2x / week or 2x / month.
          I agree with this, but this is also where a lot of people that don't have a background in sales or formal marketing training get confused. A lot of those folks think "value" means providing links to free videos, free downloads, and free blog content. Value can mean a good price on a product for a limited time, a.k.a. a "sale" or "special offer". Providing value does not mean forsaking a closing opportunity. Online shoppers, no matter what the niche, are called shoppers for a reason. Most are not trying to make friends with retailers. They want to buy stuff from them. If you don't believe this, you will leave loads of money on the table.
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          • Profile picture of the author Thrasher66099
            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            I agree with this, but this is also where a lot of people that don't have a background in sales or formal marketing training get confused. A lot of those folks think "value" means providing links to free videos, free downloads, and free blog content. Value can mean a good price on a product for a limited time, a.k.a. a "sale" or "special offer". Providing value does not mean forsaking a closing opportunity. Online shoppers, no matter what the niche, are called shoppers for a reason. Most are not trying to make friends with retailers. They want to buy stuff from them. If you don't believe this, you will leave loads of money on the table.

            I've always seen adding value as enriching a person's life. It doesn't matter whether you are saving that person money on something they already wanted to buy or giving them information on some subject they were searching for. If you make their life better in some way you are adding value. So on that note I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        It's possible to build a relationship AND make offers at
        the same time.

        It doesn't have to be an either/or situation.
        I agree. If I had the second list of wedding invitations, I would still send them right to the offer after they have signed up but I would also then continue to build a relationship with that prospect... you would be mad not to.

        If someone is looking to get married then this tells me a LOT about what this person is going to be looking for over the next few months. Car hire, flowers, wedding cakes, suit hire, wedding gown, venues, holidays, and so on.

        You are losing a lot of your potential income if you were to just go in for the kill and leave it at that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Avis
          I agree totally that some lists don't lend themselves to long term relationship building. In fact, there is an argument that some lists should never have been built in the first place!

          However, for those lists where there is a long term potential, I strongly believe that making promotional offers to your list is an integral part of building a relationship with them. Telling your readers about good products and being consistently good in your judgment of what makes a good product, is a very powerful way of building trust.

          Trust is the essence of marketing. If they trust what you say they will buy what you recommend.

          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Christines Dream
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            "Ooh, yeah, baby - that's the stuff. That's what I want. Come to daddy. Welp, break's over, back to pushing the button and going to those stupid all-hands meetings."
            ROFLMAO!!!!

            Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

            Bottom line is to know who your prospects are.
            I agree. You're definitely better off know the why's and what's of your list. Why they opted in, what they are looking for and their state of mind -- it's all good.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dann Vicker
    Spot on Brian...I just noticed that some of my subscribers actually unsubscribe when you I try to push the relationship thing too far or too long...Now going for a mix of great content with promotions.

    I think that works better.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

    Is this good advice? The answer is not a flat out "yes". A better answer would be "sometimes".
    I have these two kinds of customers.

    I'm interested in developing a relationship with some of them. The ones who want to, well, do what I'm doing - build a serious online business with longevity and a reputation.

    But the majority of my customers are not looking to do that. They want the fantasy of building a business. They want to pretend they are going to build a business. The notion of building a business is entertainment to them - "one of these days, I am going to build a business," they say. And they sigh, and think about it a while, and go back to work.

    What those people "need" is to be motivated, frequently with "tough love" and a good swift kick in the arse. That might get them to actually build a business.

    But what they want is to occasionally pull themselves out of their crappy lives with a $10 report they can use as what amounts to job porn.

    "Ooh, yeah, baby - that's the stuff. That's what I want. Come to daddy. Welp, break's over, back to pushing the button and going to those stupid all-hands meetings."

    And like any porn, de gustibus non est disputandum. You can complain all you want that these aren't real business owners, or aren't real Warriors, or WTFever... but they are real customers, in that they will hang around handing you money.

    As long as they can delude themselves they are the other kind of customer, without reality intruding on the fantasy.
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    • Profile picture of the author TonyLaw
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      ...But the majority of my customers are not looking to do that. They want the fantasy of building a business. They want to pretend they are going to build a business. The notion of building a business is entertainment to them - "one of these days, I am going to build a business," they say. And they sigh, and think about it a while, and go back to work...

      ...But what they want is to occasionally pull themselves out of their crappy lives with a $10 report they can use as what amounts to job porn...

      ..."Ooh, yeah, baby - that's the stuff. That's what I want. Come to daddy. Welp, break's over, back to pushing the button and going to those stupid all-hands meetings."...
      LOL! You've just described me for most of my adult life. I would rather dream about it than actually do it.
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      • Profile picture of the author SlicedGenius
        I completely agree with OP that every list needs to be treated differently depending on the circumstances of signing up. This is why its so important to segment and use different lists (or tags) for different sign up locations.

        Relationships are crucial yes, but you don't always need to tip-toe around before you get to what you really plan to do with the list. It can just delay the inevitable.

        People are over obsessed with unsubscribes being a bad thing. But if they are really not interested - they are better off your list, not costing you per-send fees or diluting your analytics.

        If you're going to try and monetise a list, you have to expect a few people not to like it.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      ...a $10 report they can use as what amounts to job porn.

      "Ooh, yeah, baby - that's the stuff. That's what I want. Come to daddy. Welp, break's over, back to pushing the button and going to those stupid all-hands meetings."
      Every once in a while, you can be a pretty funny guy (not just a pretty funny looking guy).
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  • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
    I think this is a fair point.

    In general, it probably depends heavily on the complexity of the niche.

    If your niche is an easy problem to solve, you will see people getting involved quickly and making a decision within a day or two.

    If it's a long term quest that people struggle with, you need that relationship to sell them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
    My daughter is getting married in about a month so I am qualified somewhat more on this subject than I was six months ago .... some websites do not need an opt in form and would make for a pitiful list.

    Wedding invitations and anything related to weddings should never offer a squeeze for the bride or groom .... just the parents .. we are the ones spending all the freaking money.

    PS: Anyone want to buy blood .. I have sold off just about everything else!
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinW
    In almost every case I just want to hear about product I might want to buy. A freebie is nice but in most cases I'm looking for something to buy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Hello Kevin, I have this list ....


      Originally Posted by KevinW View Post

      In almost every case I just want to hear about product I might want to buy. A freebie is nice but in most cases I'm looking for something to buy.
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  • Profile picture of the author MattCatania
    Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

    Bottom line is to know who your prospects are. Are they potential long term customers or are they potential one off customers? Once you know what your prospect wants, you will know whether to take the get to know me approach or hard sell approach. Not knowing will cost you sales.
    It's funny you say this - not two days ago did I hear this exact same advice at University whilst sitting in my consumer behaviour lecture.

    I don't think that people believe they can have the best of both worlds here.

    You can get these hot prospects onto your opt-in list (and quickly fire-off your 'freebie' with a no-brainer hard-sell inside) that shows them in the quickest and simplest way, how to get the product they're looking for. Once you make that first sale then you can further monetize them in the future (if you so wish to).

    Of course, as you said, this approach would be more suitable if you're targeting a segment of the market that are in the buying phase - that means they've done most of their research and have their credit-cards 'at the ready'.
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  • Profile picture of the author World Marketing
    Interesting post...This is definilty something I will keep in mind.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Mcalorum
    It makes sense.

    I guess it all depends on how ''desperate'' your niche/sub niche is
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  • Profile picture of the author richie757
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by richie757 View Post

      Id rather take a chance on building a relationship because those type of customers are the ones that are more likely to come back for more.
      This is not true.

      Go to your local Home Depot, and just camp out by the registers all day.

      The people who build a relationship - the ones who walk up to the register and say "Hi, Kim; how's Bob? How's your sister's baby? Did Tom not come in today?" - are buying a wall switch and a surge suppressor.

      The contractors - with their loads of lumber, conduits, wiring, and fasteners - go through the line with barely a grunt. They wait for a total, which is usually several thousand dollars, then swipe their card and GTFO.

      And let's not forget those devastating words toward the end of Glengarry Glen Ross: "They just like talking to salesmen."

      Which should put us in mind of the similarly devastating words toward the beginning: "Coffee is for closers."
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      • Profile picture of the author Rashell
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        This is not true.

        Go to your local Home Depot, and just camp out by the registers all day.

        The people who build a relationship - the ones who walk up to the register and say "Hi, Kim; how's Bob? How's your sister's baby? Did Tom not come in today?" - are buying a wall switch and a surge suppressor.

        The contractors - with their loads of lumber, conduits, wiring, and fasteners - go through the line with barely a grunt. They wait for a total, which is usually several thousand dollars, then swipe their card and GTFO.

        And let's not forget those devastating words toward the end of Glengarry Glen Ross: "They just like talking to salesmen."

        Which should put us in mind of the similarly devastating words toward the beginning: "Coffee is for closers."

        Well it could be (true that is).

        We have a local lumber yard that could have gone out of business when the big box stores moved in. They're surrounded by 2 Lowe's and 3 Home Depots all within 15-20 minutes from them. But they're still alive and kicking because of the relationship they built with their contractors.

        They have in house sales reps who take your order, get the thing ready and have you come pick it up. They have a strong reputation of not selling warped wood, knowing what the heck they're talking about when it comes to lumber, etc. Because of this they've been able to weather the storm of a nasty economy all the while being surrounded by cheap labor DIY stores.

        The thing is Home Depot/Lowe's decided to "position" themselves in the mind's of their customers as an inexpensive checkout lane lumber mill. This company chose to take a different road altogether. And their marketing strategies supports their "positioning".

        Rashell
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Rashell View Post

          Well it could be (true that is).
          Where is the relationship building in your example?

          I see a quality of service that the big box stores don't offer.

          But where is the part where they're friends with all their customers and give them free advice and crap all the time?
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          • Profile picture of the author Rashell
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Where is the relationship building in your example?

            I see a quality of service that the big box stores don't offer.

            But where is the part where they're friends with all their customers and give them free advice and crap all the time?
            Good point. Let me first state I always thought "service" was about the "relationship".

            Then if I could clarify.

            In my experience with them... While not a contractor, when I go in they do ask how my mom is doing (she's been one of their customer's for almost 30+ years). They ask us what projects we're working on. And of course when they give "free" advice (on items like a garage door, bay window, lumber for a back porch) it works in their favor. I've observed them do the same with other patrons.


            Still these guys aren't just giving "crap" away. They're "giving" stuff that's helping them make a sale. And that includes the contractor discount-- given to my mom "cause she's been coming to them for so long".


            I don't believe they ask what projects we're working on just for the "friendliness" of it. They'll ask then gently steer us towards a product they have in stock or a brochure that "might help us". They're selling without being pushy. Of course, unlike wedding invitations, this can bring them thousands of dollars in 1 sale. So it's a worthwhile strategy.


            The guys at Home Depot could care less. It's not their business model to "build client relationships". It's their business model to "checkout shoppers".


            I hope that makes sense.

            Rashell
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  • Profile picture of the author PathShawN
    i think the best way to make the people of your list see your messages is: giving them a). free stuff b). things they need or c). random mails just asking them how are they doing and stuff like that!

    regards,
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    • Profile picture of the author Troy_Phillips
      Where does the actual offer come in?


      Originally Posted by PathShawN View Post

      i think the best way to make the people of your list see your messages is: giving them a). free stuff b). things they need or c). random mails just asking them how are they doing and stuff like that!

      regards,
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  • Profile picture of the author MaryK
    On my first site I tried the 'relationship' route, got heaps of sign ups but not too many buyers. Am now determined to avoid this mistake but don't want to over load my buyers list with 'buy me now' emails, as I personally do not like them.

    Am leaning towards the mix Shaun has suggested. Good content, with buy links through the email. Seems to be a fair compromise between the hard sell and offering freebies/relationship building format.

    I agree with Shaun, people will buy when they are ready, all depends on their circumstances at the time they receive your emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author Noel Cunningham
    Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post


    Bottom line is to know who your prospects are. Are they potential long term customers or are they potential one off customers? Once you know what your prospect wants, you will know whether to take the get to know me approach or hard sell approach. Not knowing will cost you sales.

    Just some food for thought.
    I think this is very good advice Brian. I'm big on relationship building but your 100% correct - you should first know who your customer is and then tailor your approach to their specific needs.

    If they need an immediate solution then having a paid offer for them is a good idea as they will be more likely to part with their cash as they want a Solution Now.

    It's very important to differentiate between what type of customers you are after otherwise you run the risk of leaving a lot of coin on the table - and none of us want to do that!:p
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  • Profile picture of the author Rashell
    Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

    Example 2. A visitor searches for "wedding invitations" and finds your website that sells invitations (either your business or via affiliate links). Your site offers a free guide on how to find the best deals on wedding invitations in exchange for an email address. This visitor is in need of a specific product and most likely, they need it now. Your follow-up emails need to take this into account. If you waste time sending a series of get to know me emails, you will likely lose the sale to a competitor. Even a series of emails about how to choose card stock, ink, colors, etc. would likely result in you losing the sale. This subscriber is a hot prospect that knows what he/she needs. Any good closer knows this person will react best to a hard sell. Don't waste this potential customer by giving them information they will use to shop around and find what they need elsewhere.

    Bottom line is to know who your prospects are. Are they potential long term customers or are they potential one off customers? Once you know what your prospect wants, you will know whether to take the get to know me approach or hard sell approach. Not knowing will cost you sales.
    Couple of questions...

    1. Does this company only sell wedding invitations. Or do they also sell: save the date cards, baby announcements, anniversary party invitations, bridal shower invites, rehearsal dinner invites, Christmas cards, etc?

    If only wedding invitations, I see your point.

    However, if more then...

    2. Wouldn't it be better to give a free guide on "10 ways to avoid wedding stress"? (or something similar) rather than giving them a "save money on the type of product we sell" guide. I would think the "save money" topic would cause friction to the "immediate" buying process by putting them in a haggling sort of mindset.

    3. Wouldn't a series of documents on how to choose card stock etc be better suited as blog posts rather than an email series. If they choose to read them, they're right there building a "relationship" (by giving value & showing expertise) but not "over time".

    4. On the flip side, couldn't you promote your own store by using the "10 ways" guide to explain how to relieve stress by... while mentioning your store is the only store that...

    For instance, I just heard a horror story of a bride who used a company for her save the date cards. They printed the wrong date on the cards. To fix it they covered it over with a sticker, which fell off in the mail, and the bride-to-be had to call all the guests to give them the right date. Here's how our company will keep this from happening to you...

    Method #2-10 could refer to JV partners you're associated with. (I don't know. I've never worked in the "weddings" niche).

    In conclusion: It seems to me the problem with the campaign in Example 2 has more to do with an unfitting message more than a poor fitting relationship.

    You also have to deal with the reality that bride's come in packs. Once one of the friends in the group get's married the rest will soon follow. Lots of referrals going on there. So the follow up message could affect one of the follow up brides.

    Rashell
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