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Guru's BEWARE! I am seriously crushing your ways now...

by Chris Endres
45 replies
This is the most important thread I have started to date.

I made a major decision. I will not talk to ANYONE, period, about a product or program unless they have used the danged thing themselves and can tell me about personal results.

If you are a GURU marketer who is so smart, beware. I am removing you from my information stream if you can't tell me you use the product you are promoting. I don't give a rats a$$ how good you think it is.

When you sell me something you dont use, you are NOT TRYING TO HELP ME!

You are using your influence with me, because I believed in you enough to join your list, to promote to me and try to make a buck off me.

That stops right now. Mend your ways or you are off my mailbox. Its just that simple.

This next is my personal message I am now sending out to any GURU or wannabe who is promoting to me. If you have a reply that goes to a DO NOT REPLY account, you frickin suck and your gone for the insult. I answer my peeps bizzo... PERSONALLY!

Here is your new message from me so get used to seeing it

First question I have is do you use the product? What does it do for you? Results? If your not using it and only promoting it I need to share with you my policies have changed.

I no longer accept promotional materials for programs from ANYONE,.. not just you. I don't care about anythin anyone wants to tell me about promotionally if they do not use it and like it. It is that simple. So, in order to get my attention a person would have to share with me their personal experisnces, and why they liked what they liked.

Otherwise. No Go. It's not personal and if you take it that way then you are offended because hopes of making money off me and my efforts are dashed. This is a self serving perspective I used to use and found a better way.

I am attempting to serve you, I hope you can see that, by sharing that finding out what problems a person has and sincerely serving them to help them address those issues is the way to make money that works.

Assuming the sales pitch you are given is important to people will keep you spinning till you decide to let go. I care enough about you to tell you the truth.
You Have Been Served!
#beware #crushing #guru #ways
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    I agree 100%. Every product I sell was specifically created because I used it
    first and then created it (not that I'm a guru).

    However, having said that, it doesn't matter how much the product is created
    from the "creators" own use if the person buying it doesn't use it properly or
    not at all.

    Sure, we can put some of the blame on those who churn out stuff just to
    make money, but how many people who buy things honestly put the
    effort into making them work?

    Certainly it's food for thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    Chris, I can't believe that this is "the most important thread you've started." You're really not doing yourself any favors by posting this because you're giving people the impression that you're a guru hater. Plus, you're probably burning bridges without realizing it. Real successful people don't have time to focus on such negativity and aren't concerned with gurus "helping" them.

    I'm not saying anything about you personally, just the impression that you're giving people with posts like this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Chris, I can't believe that this is "the most important thread you've started." You're really not doing yourself any favors by posting this because you're giving people the impression that you're a guru hater. Plus, you're probably burning bridges without realizing it. Real successful people don't have time to focus on such negativity and aren't concerned with gurus "helping" them.

      I'm not saying anything about you personally, just the impression that you're giving people with posts like this.
      To The Contrary Ron, (well maybe not THE most important, ranks top to me though)

      I am now a disdained non-participant in bad direct response email marketing. I WANT the guru's to know if they think they can just make a suggestion and make a buck because im on the list, that is stinkin thinkin...

      Know who my favorite internet marketer is? Mike Dillard. Rarely promotes anything that isnt his and he plows into you with a line of reasoning not unlike a billygoat horn smashing.

      Thats my model. Thats what I am going to become. I love hearing from him. I also love hearing from Paul Myers.

      These are the guys who have it right. They are more concerned about me, about helping me crack my own barriers. They show it plainly. I even think frank kern is pretty danged good. Not always impressed there though.

      I want more than an honest review. I want someone who cares more than to talk to me with a link to some product ( not the ones they made ) in every single message.

      I feel very strongly about this. I did not and usually am not innacurate with my words. People assume I do not mean what I am saying sometimes. I mean exactly what I am saying.

      I do not mean to hurt. I mean to stop really bad tactics in promotion. I can't make anyone else do anything, but I can tell others how I feel and decision I have made.
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    • Profile picture of the author AnthonyDevine
      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      Chris, I can't believe that this is "the most important thread you've started." You're really not doing yourself any favors by posting this because you're giving people the impression that you're a guru hater. Plus, you're probably burning bridges without realizing it. Real successful people don't have time to focus on such negativity and aren't concerned with gurus "helping" them.

      I'm not saying anything about you personally, just the impression that you're giving people with posts like this.
      well said, ....
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post


    I made a major decision. I will not talk to ANYONE, period, about a product or program unless they have used the danged thing themselves and can tell me about personal results.
    When I get a recommendation from someone (anyone), all I want is honesty. If their recommendation is just based on reviewing the product, great. If it's based on using the product, even better. But either way is fine as long as the review/recommendation is honest and I know the basis for their recommendation. Then I'll make my own decision about whether the product is useful to me.



    When you sell me something you dont use, you are NOT TRYING TO HELP ME!
    I don't think this fits every scenario. I know I have to constantly remind myself, "I am not my customer." There are things that are a matter of personal preference that I wouldn't use, but my customers would gladly use... and benefit greatly from (and vice versa).

    For example -- let's suppose I outsourced everything, especially my writing. And let's suppose I run across a product about how to become a better writer or a better copywriter.

    In this example, that's something I personally wouldn't use since I outsource writing.

    However, I bet my customers would be interested in the product. (And in business, I focus on giving my customers what they want and need, not what I think they should want and need based on my personal preference.)* So I review the product honestly and tell them about it. Then they can make up their minds whether it's useful to them.

    Just my coupla cents.

    Cheers,
    Becky


    *ETA: Don't take that to mean I'd recommend anything. If it's a crap product -- even if my customers "want" it -- I won't recommend it. I'm talking about differences in personal preferences, as per my example.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
      The only way that I can affect this is by only promoting products I have reviewed and/or purchased. If you look at my ebook page on my blog, I've bought or reviewed every one of those products and made sure they were good before I promoted them.

      Sure, you can make an easy buck selling garbage, but it just isn't the way I want to do business. I prefer the Chris Brogan methodology rather than the Don Lapre methodology.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Buckley
    I'm no guru but I've been around awhile. Only one of my sites is aimed specifically at the IM niche and only products that I own and use regularly are featured there.

    It is a blog and most of the content is comprised of information and instruction on topics of interest to webmaster/marketers. I occasionally review and recommend a particular product available from my site. The review is usually a discussion of the results I get from using the software on that very site.

    As for the promotional emails I receive from other marketers, I don't care whether they own and use the product themselves. I'm capable of evaluting the offer myself and determining whether or not it is useful and worth the price.

    The lists I unsubscribe from are the ones that bombard me daily hawking some product, usually of little real value.
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  • Profile picture of the author rondo
    If you are recommending or endorsing a product, then of course you should have used it.

    HOWEVER there are many ways to sell products without personally recommending them.


    Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author tom42357
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by tom42357 View Post

      YUP, I agree 1,000% with you Chris. I'm on a ton of lists, and they just spam me with the next, greatest fad offer without ever trying the product to see if it works. If like, Becky above says, "all I want is honesty" fine let them be honest, but they're not. About 90% of them will lie to make a fast buck off of us little guys. Guinea pig was too nice, meal ticket is more like it. (They do eat Guinea pigs in Peru though!)
      Not to nitpick, but...

      Ok, I'm nitpicking

      First, if you opted in, it's not spam (unless they enticed you under false pretenses). And do you have any data to back up your statement of 90% of the marketers are lying?

      I am curious as to where you get that number.

      Chris,

      I see your point, and of course, it's your time and right to do what you want with your time (like unsubscribing, etc).

      I promote many products that I don't USE personally (for various reasons which I will cover in a second). However, I DO review each and every product I promote.

      As well, when I only review a product, I say so in my promotional email. I do not portray that I use it. And of course, when I do use a product, I do an HAVE provided results - often in the form of a video.

      Now, as for personally using each and every product, I find that to be counter-productive in certain circumstances.

      Lets take adwords products as an example. I have a guy who runs my adwords campaigns. He uses a couple of products daily to assist in his work. And, we get GREAT results.

      So when I review a new one, I review it for various other aspect, such as price, ease of use (or understanding). It may be a better product than the one I am using, but it would not be the best thing to switch products mid-stream.

      I believe you CAN give good recommendations and properly evaluate products without having to use them daily. Again, as long as you are forthcoming in your emails when promoting.

      So, why then should I promote these products?

      Various reasons again. At times, it's because the product creator is a friend of mine. Sometimes it's because the product may be a cheaper version of a very expensive product that I believe my subscribers could use.

      And mostly, the products I choose to promote are ones in which I know from my surveys that I conduct are the types of products that my subscribers are looking for. And I get thanked often for providing options.

      It also depends on my list as well. I have some lists built for the sole purpose of sending offers along with content from time to time. My subscribe/unsubscribe rate is what tells me when I am on the right or wrong track.

      At the end of the day, I am running a business - the purpose of which is to make a profit. It's how my mortgage gets paid. If I can help many people along the way, I am very pleased. If I make someone unhappy, they unsubscribe.

      It's not rocket science. But I do the best I can.

      Mike

      P.S. Now that you know my stance, if you're on my list somewhere, I won't be offended if you unsubscribe.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimRobinson
    Totally agree, it's amazing how many people write ebooks covering info they found in other ebooks but have NEVER ACTUALLY TRIED IT THEMSELVES.

    I'm proud to say I use my own product (split testing software) every single day and most of the improvements I've added were simply me going "hey this would be something cool to help me with my own sites, I'm going to add it and my subscribers can use it to help them with their sites too "
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  • Profile picture of the author Inbound
    I wouldn't indorse a product I wouldn't use myself.

    Inbound
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Steve
    Maybe it's time to realize that there isn't some magical formula to making money on the internet and just stop buying information products all together...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Goulet
    I think I understand where you are coming from Chris. A good example of this would be the recent Google annihilation. I received the promo email from a fellow warrior and when I could not get support from the company, I emailed him thinking he might have an answer and the reply back was simply "You'll need to contact their support system as I have nothing to do with the development end of the product. The product had been promoted as his own.

    Now that in mind, there are plenty of good stuff out there that I have not used but if I hear enough good info or their are a lot of reviews posted, I might recommend it but in general, If I have not personally used it, I am putting my reputation on the line. I also have noticed the guy from GA has dropped out of site and is laying low for awhile.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    The thing is,.. I want the hype I read to be real. I want the promoter to be excited because of the RESULTS they got.

    I want the promoter to have interesting innovations because they used it and had some inspiration on it.

    I want to read the APPRECIATION the promoter has for the people who made the product because it has somehow made a real difference to them and edged them up a notch in their skills or knowledge or even just in the wallet because they use it and know how to answer questions.

    I mean seriously. What is a guy saying to me when they blast something into my email box and then when you want to shoot them an email,.. even to say thanks,.. and they have a no.reply@imlazymarketingabozo.com ?
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    • Profile picture of the author marcanthony
      If you haven't already--check out Howie Schwartz...

      He, like Mike Dillard, promotes a lot of his own stuff...

      Sometimes it seems like Howie Schwartz has a new product coming out every week
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Hey Chris,

    I understand how you feel and I personally agree that there needs to be more honesty when it comes to recommending products and services.

    I would like to address you and others here throwing the word "spam" around. Regardless of how you feel about the tactics and the products or the amount of emails you get from these marketers, let's back up and look at how it all started.

    What was the big long contractual agreement you guys read when you popped your name into the opt-in box next to the pretty image of that cool thing you just couldn't live without and "hey, it's free".

    Again, I'm not condoning anything that goes on inside the list and the practices of the senders but I learned after getting upset, not unlike you, that I am not a victim and I have choices.

    Now when I see those opt-in forms I pause and think about my choices and the results, or consequences of my actions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    Jeff Bezos must have the world's largest library at home
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    First, Mike Ambrosio,

    Thank you for your well expressed response.

    I am not going to ask you to run your business any other way that what works for you and what you enjoy. I like it when people do things that make them happy, because in some way that good energy is transfered into what they do.

    If some member of your business is using a piece of software or product, you are technically using it because its in your business. You can share results. So, that is allowed in my definition.

    This is not a personal deal,.. what I am about to say. I don't value reviewed materials much any more. Sure,.. there are exceptions.

    The standard that has been allowed to become established is the 1200 pound gorrilla in the room,.. and I am sorry to say it is time I shoot it in the butt. (to make it run away - for animal rights activists)

    People WANT to hear from you, and then they dont. I am sorry if anyone wants to gloss over this point but it is a major deal. When you promote your products, you are passionately interested in helping me.

    You are answering a need because you have a niche where you have researched the problems and concerns and become an expert enough to be able to really offer me value.

    You may even have a hoard of followers who have become passionate as you have about your niche,.. who use what you made and promote your product as if it was thier own, but they USE it because they love you and your work.

    That is the guy I want to hear from. I WILL OPEN HIS EMAILS because he is deeply invested in his niche and passionate that it can greatly uplift anyones life if the reader will just use the material.

    Can you become an educared master in more than one niche? sure. just like speaking multiple languages.

    Cross promoting to lists that are not targeted to the niche you serve is an annoyance and self serving.

    When I choose JV partners, I will make very sure they have lists that fit with my product. That is important to me. I do not want my JV partner to promote to a list that he hopes has someone in it that will buy a copy so he gets paid.

    I want a better reputation than that. If you don't see my offer,..its because you are not into the niche I serve,.. and that is ok with me.

    If I have done my work well,.. I have chosen a niche that generates enough income that I dont need to cross promote to non-synergistic lists.

    Thats how I feel and that's how I will be running my business,.. and I won't judge you for how you run yours.

    I have to get off those list that I agreed to join who treat me like a money meatsack.
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    • Profile picture of the author IMChick
      I think the line can be drawn here--what's a "guru" defined as for you? Surely not everyone with an autoresponder hitting you with multiple offers is a guru?

      Not likely, but it is likely that they are all marketers, though.

      And, yup, as much as I was laughing after reading your comment, you are in the same demographic as all of the other 'money meatsacks'.

      I think you have a novel approach to the problem of getting your email inbox hammered, but, it may not be the right solution. Rather than starting a flame war with each sender's CS, just unsubscribe and move on.

      Also, make sure that if you ask for an email address on an opt-in that you delineate it's permitted uses. "we won't share your address or spam you" also has many meanings. Technically, (and more important, legally) getting a flood of email from a double opt-in autoresponder is not spam. But if the emails being sent to you are not relevant to the thing you initially signed up for, that's the bigger issue.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michelle Adams
        I understand where you're coming from and yes there is a lot of crap recommendations BUT I don't expect that everything ever recommended to me has been personally tested.

        I would trust you if you said that you don't have a child attending a certain school but your friend who is really fussy does and she says it's great. I'd trust your judgment of your friend and their recommendation even though you've never used the school yourself. I see it the same as IM. I'm sure there are Internet marketers that you are a fan of and if they produced a product on building niche sites but you didn't need it yourself but knew I did then wouldn't you tell me about the product? I'd want to know about Mr X if you think he's someone I can trust and they have released a product I might be interested in and they've always produced quality products so you're sure I wouldn't be disappointed. I'd trust your recommendation even though you'd never used the product.

        I really do get what you're saying though but I think such a cut and dry approach could see you missing out on some great recommendations. It's easy to spot the gurus that promote absolutely everything without really knowing the person or the product, now that turns my stomach! You will see their face on every testimonial from the newbie's sales page through to the most prominent marketer's sales page...that's a red alert for me and I file them under crap gurus.
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        • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
          Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post


          When you sell me something you dont use, you are NOT TRYING TO HELP ME!
          When I worked in advertising (selling ad space for a local newspaper), I was genuinely trying to help local business owners get more business...because they would then come back and place orders with me every week if it worked.

          Yet, I never ran one ad for my own use...meaning I never used the product I was trying to sell. So does that mean I suddenly didn't want to help people? I'll let you decide.

          I know where you're coming from, but the fact is, you don't need to use a product in order to recommend it...you just need to know that it works and that it's good (social proof is usually present in this case, which you can refer your subscribers to).

          If I see an old lady complaining about her feet being in pain from wearing shoes in the house (and her feet also being too cold), and I am running a store that sells slippers for elderly people, should I let her continue in pain because I don't personally wear pink fluffy slippers made for women?

          ...or do I call her in and suggest she buy a pair of these slippers?

          At the very least, I race to open my emails (even promos)...because of the solid education I get.

          Trust me, I've seen more pitches than hot dinners in 2009 alone, (seriously, that's not an exaggeration)...

          ...and you know what? I can write a damn good email promo these days, because I know what makes me buy, and what makes me delete.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Remember this...

    The list owner who makes recommendations is making many different recommendations not to make everyone buy but rather to entertain the many different people on his lists and the many different needs and levels people are at.

    If a promotion isn't directed at your skill level then leave it alone... it wasn't meant for you, but rather for the more experienced/inexperienced person who is also on this list.

    Having said that, when I recommend something to my lists I honestly believe it will help them. Sometimes I don't use the product because I don't need to because I already know what works and the product just happens to be a perfect fit. (I always get and read the product first in 99% of the cases)

    Mike Hill
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Remember this...

      The list owner who makes recommendations is making many different recommendations not to make everyone buy but rather to entertain the many different people on his lists and the many different needs and levels people are at.

      If a promotion isn't directed at your skill level then leave it alone... it wasn't meant for you, but rather for the more experienced/inexperienced person who is also on this list.

      Having said that, when I recommend something to my lists I honestly believe it will help them. Sometimes I don't use the product because I don't need to because I already know what works and the product just happens to be a perfect fit. (I always get and read the product first in 99% of the cases)

      Mike Hill
      This is how i feel too when I promote to my list.

      There's somebody on my list that is looking for that EXACT product I just promoted
      at that EXACT time.

      Those that don't want it don't have to buy it.

      Those that need it and want it will buy it and I will earn a commission for it -- and rightfully so.

      I'm not much of a blogger (check my last blog post), but I know that people can make
      a lot of money blogging. So I've told my list about several different products on the topic
      I knew they could follow to make money blogging if that's what they wanted to do.

      Blogging is just an example, but I think you know what I'm getting at.

      It's my subscribers' personal responsibility to assert self control and buy only
      what they feel they need to move forward.

      I don't ever put a gun to anyone's head on my list.

      I just simply say, "Hey, if you're looking to accomplish such and such or do such and such,
      this will help you achieve that desired result."

      I'm on several lists as well and read lots of emails just to see what people have going on.

      I hardly ever buy anything, unless I absolutely need it. Most stuff I can just get without
      having to pay, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna stop everything I'm working on just to go
      through the product simply because I have access to it.

      It's a self control thing, in my humble opinion.

      People need to take responsibility for their own actions and need to stop blaming everyone
      else for their lack of self control and/or failure - if they are failing, of course.

      While some of you may not agree with me, I'm ok with that.

      Being that I do promote several products without using them and many sometimes without
      reviewing them, I figured I'd offer my perspective as the type of marketer I currently am.

      A lot of times, I promote just based on their reputation and my relationship with them.

      There are even people I am friends with, but I'll probably never promote anything they
      ever come out with because of their reputation.

      There are even other reasons why I will not promote a product such as how long they
      take to pay commissions, no matter how great the product is.

      It goes both ways with me.

      Doesn't make me a bad person. And if you think I am, you don't know me and I feel
      sorry for anyone that thinks someone is a bad person because they promote a lot of
      products or whatever.

      Anyway, my two cents.

      I'm gonna go watch Dora with my babies before they go to sleep

      Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
    I am leaning towards yes, because I'm also sick of the "My good friend Joe Shmoe is launching his new..." spiel.

    However, I actually don't mind the emails which basically suggest that I go take a peek and decide for myself whether the product is awesome. It's all in the copy and tone of the email. I also don't mind emails that offer me bonuses for paid products as long as they're not copy-pasting the damn swipe files that the product owner gives them. I got one earlier today, I think, that I really liked. I'm not going to name the person, but it went something like this: "If you're not interested in getting X, cool. If you are, here's my bonus. Lates" I paraphrased there, but you get the point

    I agree for the most part with all that has been said above. However, there are some things that you can promote without having tried it (granted, not in a very in-depth manner). For example, I can recommend GetResponse as an autoresponder and say that it works great because I know it is, even though I am an Aweber user. Back to the promo emails though, as long as the person who's sending me this stuff isn't talking out of his/her ass and genuinely wants me to check something out for my benefit (even if they haven't tried it yet), then I am perfectly ok with that.

    Curtis
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  • Profile picture of the author iddigger
    Guru's sell a lot from CB, Amazon, Pay.Com, Ebay and a number of places. Store's sell to customers everyday without using the product.

    Should we recommend shutting down everything to keep one person from being pissed off ?

    Personally I think this thread is no help but what do I know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Here's some perspective about recommending products:

    Just now I am enjoying some microwave popcorn... I bought it a Zehrs (Huge grocery chain in Canada) Anyway, the popcorn is crap so does this mean I should not shop at that grocery store anymore?

    Now that would be silly wouldn't it?

    Perhaps I should have used better judgment? Maybe I should have asked the woman standing next to me when I picked up the box for her recommendation?

    Or maybe I should just use my own best judgment and never buy that popcorn again. Doesn't mean I won't shop at the store who sold it to me, it just means that I won't buy that product brand anymore.

    In essence, don't shoot the affiliate... make the product creator pay for his lack luster product.

    Mike Hill

    PS. Maybe I should put the popcorn back in the bag that I just dumped in a bowl and see if I can get a refund?
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    • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
      Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

      Here's some perspective about recommending products:

      Just now I am enjoying some microwave popcorn... I bought it a Zehrs (Huge grocery chain in Canada) Anyway, the popcorn is crap so does this mean I should not shop at that grocery store anymore?

      Now that would be silly wouldn't it?

      Perhaps I should have used better judgment? Maybe I should have asked the woman standing next to me when I picked up the box for her recommendation?

      Or maybe I should just use my own best judgment and never buy that popcorn again. Doesn't mean I won't shop at the store who sold it to me, it just means that I won't buy that product brand anymore.

      In essence, don't shoot the affiliate... make the product creator pay for his lack luster product.

      Mike Hill

      PS. Maybe I should put the popcorn back in the bag that I just dumped in a bowl and see if I can get a refund?

      No Mike, you should go to the most popular popcorn making/eating forum and
      start a thread ranting about how crappy the popcorn is and that all convenient
      stores should burn in hell for shelving popcorn they've never bothered to try
      or learn about it's creation process.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
        Originally Posted by jasondinner View Post

        No Mike, you should go to the most popular popcorn making/eating forum and
        start a thread ranting about how crappy the popcorn is and that all convenient
        stores should burn in hell for shelving popcorn they've never bothered to try
        or learn about it's creation process.
        Bahahaha

        Good one!

        Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
    Banned
    Personally I don't care all that much. As long as I'm learning something from them I'm happy. Gotta love Chris for taking on The Gurus though.
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  • Profile picture of the author bhzmr
    I agree with Mike Hill and Jason Dinner. If a person promoting a product has not tried or reviewed himself, then it does not mean he wants only to make money out of you.

    It is absolutely understandable that there are many products that can help people on their way and you can promote or recommend, without you have to try it, because it is not on the line what you do, but you think honestly it can help others.

    I think it all depends on two things whether to buy a product or not:

    1- The reputation of the person who promotes the product.
    2- Your self control.

    Imagine a product that is recommended by a guru and it can create a lot of money, but if that is not what you do now, then you do not have to buy it, you need to control yourself and focus on your own business.

    Behzad
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  • Profile picture of the author mecantone
    If I were a guru who knew a guru on as a personal basis as these gurus claim to be then I would have to publicly let them know their product sucks but most or all of these products work for someone while most are probably sitting on the shelf doing nothing any way. It aint going to work or fail if you don't use it.
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    Frank Kern once said when asked about concern of the quality of a product he was promoting, "We're marketers". He went on to say that, of course, you don't want to sell "crap". But, "We're marketers".

    I guarantee that virtually no marketing company ever created a TV commercial or magazine ad based on personal experience.

    I have several sites that I have a personal, vested interest in. And, I take pride in the quality of those products.

    And, I have been through the BS often enough to know it when I see it.

    As experienced marketers we should all be able recognize marketing for what it is.
    I try to keep up with what the "gurus" ( I hate that term) are doing. Not what they are selling.
    Kern is very entertaining. But, I rarely buy any of his sh*t. he has some very good info and products. But, I've also seen him promote lesser products.

    The gurus have fallen into their own trap. The "promote me, promote you blues".

    I used to trust Scheffren, Kern, Reese, Walker, etc.
    But now, I get 4 - 5 emails from each of them every time one of them launches a new product.
    Want to know how to make a million dollars on one launch?
    Get those to promote it for you. Millions of emails going out to trusting opt-ins for a $500 - $1,000 or more product.

    But, wouldn't you if had the chance?

    LC
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
      Originally Posted by lcombs View Post


      But, wouldn't you if had the chance?

      LC
      My answer, is no I would not.

      And by not doing so you would recognize me as a different kind of Marketer.

      Not a sell out.

      When you see my email, you know what to expect, because you are actually interested in the subject my list targets.

      You will read my email and I will share with you, and I will poke you in the eye for not getting off the couch.

      You will know the pain is good because you want to do the thing the subject is about, so you will respect me, because you know I care enough to poke you in the eye.

      When my next email comes, you will know I am there for you, that I am trying to help you, and you will read and get poked in the eye again, and you will like it.

      One day, after I poke you in the eye enough times, you will decide its time. You will buy my sugesstion, you will take it seriously because you have a "history" with me and the same thing that got you to buy will get you to take action, as long as I am consistent with you.

      YOU WANT TO GO SOMEWHERE.

      You joined my list because you wanted to go somewhere. It's my JOB to get you there. Marketing IS MY JOB.

      Trying to get you to buy SOMETHING because you are on my list and I am a marketer is NOT MY JOB.

      hope that makes sense. it sure does to me...
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    I content that some of you are not telling the whole truth so as to appear respectable and focused with regard to the topic.

    HOWEVER, I will bet when you are in your PJ's looking through your mailbox, JUST LIKE ME, you have an order of priority in who you will read.

    You do not subscribe to certian people based on what?

    ADMIT IT! You avoid pitch machines! YOU DELETE peoples emails before you have read them just like I do because you have become resistant to blathering about crap just to have content to put a link into.

    Go Ahead and TRY to tell me I am wrong and I will challenge you.

    Am I saying ALL gurus write crap to put links into? NO! I am saying the trend that started who knows how long ago through the NATURAL evolution of affiliate promotion has become monstrously imbalanced in the marketplace. Yes. This is not new. So what.

    It's my turn to say something about it. I am a WARRIOR in mind and heart and I face my challenges every day just like everyone else.

    If you are on my list, and I made a relationship with you based on your interest in one of my products, I have decided I will not promote anything to you not specifically targeted to the list your on.

    If your on a list building list, you get list building solutions and advice ONLY.

    This is the important part of what I am saying. People are cross promoting to non-targeted lists and writing stupid crap just-go-get-it reviews to make a buck and I am sick of it.

    Mike Dillard makes a ton of money. Know what he consistantly promotes?

    The SAME THING.

    Once in a great while he talks about other products, but he POUNDS the same deal in a wide variety of ways.

    This my friends, shows me he is consistent, and that he freekin cares about what he is talking about. He gets pissed off if you dont listen to him because he works hard to bring you focused information that will help if you use it.

    That is the best model for email marketing HANDS DOWN.

    Seriously, do you disagree? If so, why? How do you challenge that?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      Go Ahead and TRY to tell me I am wrong and I will challenge you.
      Ok... you are wrong.

      I have a special email address that I use to subscribe to any list in the IM niche. About once every couple of weeks, I log in, and I see what's happening in the industry, see who's launching what products, which affiliate is launching which product...

      I also see how they try to get my attention with their subject lines.

      A few of these I will actually open and read, maybe pick up a few tips on email writing.

      Some I delete without opening.

      Some I find so good, I move to my regular email address for regular delivery.

      And not once do I base my decision on whether or not the product they are pitching is something they personally use.

      Which is the basis of your starting this thread, no?

      So, there you have it. Prove to me I'm wrong (whatever "wrong" may mean...).

      I have said this on numerous occassions and I will say it again here. I got into this market, into my business to make money. I don't apologize for that. And email marketing/affiliate marketing is a part of my business.

      Some of the products I promote I do indeed use. Others I simply evaluate for the SOLE PURPOSE of promoting. And, once again, I don't apologize for that. Because I am a marketer. I market to other marketers and would-be marketers. I would expect that they also understand how this process works. If they don't, they are free to leave my lists - no hard feelings.

      I don't lie. I don't scam. I don't "bait and switch" in my promotions. I only pitch what I believe is quality, and that I think people can use. And I never EVER try to please everyone. That is futile.

      I have also said this before and I will say it again here...

      If things like this REALLY bother you, maybe it's time to find a different niche. I mean, it really isn't for everyone.

      Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      I content that some of you are not telling the whole truth so as to appear respectable and focused with regard to the topic.

      HOWEVER, I will bet when you are in your PJ's looking through your mailbox, JUST LIKE ME, you have an order of priority in who you will read.

      You do not subscribe to certian people based on what?

      ADMIT IT! You avoid pitch machines! YOU DELETE peoples emails before you have read them just like I do because you have become resistant to blathering about crap just to have content to put a link into.

      Go Ahead and TRY to tell me I am wrong and I will challenge you.

      Am I saying ALL gurus write crap to put links into? NO! I am saying the trend that started who knows how long ago through the NATURAL evolution of affiliate promotion has become monstrously imbalanced in the marketplace. Yes. This is not new. So what.

      It's my turn to say something about it. I am a WARRIOR in mind and heart and I face my challenges every day just like everyone else.

      If you are on my list, and I made a relationship with you based on your interest in one of my products, I have decided I will not promote anything to you not specifically targeted to the list your on.

      If your on a list building list, you get list building solutions and advice ONLY.

      This is the important part of what I am saying. People are cross promoting to non-targeted lists and writing stupid crap just-go-get-it reviews to make a buck and I am sick of it.

      Mike Dillard makes a ton of money. Know what he consistantly promotes?

      The SAME THING.

      Once in a great while he talks about other products, but he POUNDS the same deal in a wide variety of ways.

      This my friends, shows me he is consistent, and that he freekin cares about what he is talking about. He gets pissed off if you dont listen to him because he works hard to bring you focused information that will help if you use it.

      That is the best model for email marketing HANDS DOWN.

      Seriously, do you disagree? If so, why? How do you challenge that?

      First lets address this:

      I content that some of you are not telling the whole truth so as to appear respectable and focused with regard to the topic.
      Take a look at your poll and tell me you're NOT telling the whole truth. If you look at your poll you have set it up to preclude that more people will select a certain answer over another just by the way it is worded. That poll is a loaded gun and extremely bias.

      Secondly, I don't need to appear respectable because I AM ... and I don't need the lunch lady's approval to feel good about myself, my products and the few that I promote.

      HOWEVER, I will bet when you are in your PJ's looking through your mailbox, JUST LIKE ME, you have an order of priority in who you will read.
      Dauh! But I do in fact read most of the email inside my box because I like to look at how people are promoting so I can do a better job and/or learn something. I learn a lot about subject lines and email copy just by reading it all... the good... the bad... and the ugly...

      I am very proficient at list building and writing emails that get results but that skill didn't come to me by complaining and deleting everything.

      If you constantly delete everything and live in a bubble... shielding yourself from everyone then how in the heck are you going to progress? How will you learn new things? How will you keep up to what is going on in your market?

      Shielding one self from everything makes people ignorant, not educated.

      ADMIT IT! You avoid pitch machines! YOU DELETE peoples emails before you have read them just like I do because you have become resistant to blathering about crap [I]just to have content to put a link into.
      Actually I look to see their pattern (if they have one) and I look at their promotion style. Like I said, I have learned a lot from reading other people's email promotions and I keep a good sized swipe file of the ones that get and keep my interest.

      Go Ahead and TRY to tell me I am wrong and I will challenge you.
      You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink! Obviously you have already made up your mind to be confrontational and no matter what anyone says you will still hauler from the mountain tops.

      If you are on my list, and I made a relationship with you based on your interest in one of my products, I have decided I will not promote anything to you not specifically targeted to the list your on.
      It's called an autoresponder... Why bother airing your dirty laundry in public?

      Yawn... I'm bored of this already!

      Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author One Inch Punch
    Paul Myers and Mike Furey are kings because they help their readers. Period. If they're recommending a product, it's because they use it or created it to solve a problem they once had - or a problem they think you may need solving. The enthusiasm and detailed information they provide comes from a deep understanding and familiarity of the product, be it their own or someone elses.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    When someone like Gary Ambrose and Keith Wellman give away a $5000 seminar for $1, you damn well better believe I'm going to tell my list about it despite not seeing it.

    My customers can make up their own minds if it's worthy and whether or not they want to continue on the continuity.

    In fact, I feel like it would be a disservice for me to not tell my list about a offer like this even if I haven't seen 3 seconds of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author iddigger
    Good post Mike, I agree with you.

    I also have some junk email account, some of the emails I reuse for marketing, some have there email address I snatch, some I even bought great products, I never open attachments though unless its a trusted source.

    Guru's make a lot of money and following them is a great way to learn how they make money and some even show you how to make money for free.
    Internet is always changing with better ways to market even if the guru's don't always use the product.
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    Best regards,
    Joe
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  • Profile picture of the author Charan Saini
    I do agree with you , my product (mind body connection) is what I 've used for many years and have been totally inspired , I would like to share my success with everyone, its so important to believe in what you are selling .
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Endres
    I dont need to be nearly as expressive as I have been to make my point.

    My purpose is not to focus on anyone and anger them, that is not my intent. I do feel very strongly about my position.

    One thing to recognize here, which I had not taken into account in the first post is that there are lists that have no focus.

    They are just "get on my list to learn about what I know" lists.

    I see what I feel is a lot of crap coming from those lists and honestly I am not a fan of getting hit with 12 marketers promoting the latest launch, and trying to get me to choose to buy from them instead of the competition, because of some bonus that ends up being someone elses rehashed crap.

    YES it is my fault for joining those lists. I admit that.

    BUT I want to be on all your lists,.. I want to value each and every one of your time and effort to communicate to me and I want to believe you care about me.

    But that is not coming through. Thats the bitch about this whole deal. I want to listen to your wisdom,.. I want to learn from you.

    Many of you are sounding more like pitch machines and I want you to add more real value and drill down into a service mode of communication.

    I want you to take responsability for what you promote by being reachable and willing to respond to anyone who would ask a question instead of putting up a no.reply address.

    You can say I am wrong if you want. I am your customer and I am saying I am not happy with your emails.

    In the end there are many ways to go about doing things and I am just choosing my way.

    I have people who feel as I do and that counts, and means if you take my opinion and throw it in the dirt you are saying the same thing to the 50 others who have voted as I have.

    Discount the poll. Say it is bias. It still addresses an underlying pervasive feeling, and you have a choice to do something about it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Chris,

      Let's take a specific example.

      A marketer who only uses Dreamweaver is asked by his/her list how to build good websites. These people are newbies and have no technical knowledge.

      The marketer has never used Xsitepro but has heard it's a good, newbie-friendly product, top marketers consistently and over years recommend it and he/she has seen a lot of sites built with it.

      Would you recommend it based on that?

      Another thought. Even if the marketer bought Xsitepro to try it out how valuable would his/her opinion be because he/she cannot see it with a newbie's eyes?

      Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Chris Endres View Post

      Discount the poll. Say it is bias. It still addresses an underlying pervasive feeling, and you have a choice to do something about it.
      My poll IS my list.

      As I have said in an earlier post...their reply's and the unsubscribe rate will tell me everything I need to know.

      A poll in the WF by someone who convinced themself that everyone with a list that pitches products needs to be schooled to his way, well, sorry but it doesn't count.

      The problem here is YOUR viewpoint.

      You're entitled to your opinion, to be sure. But trying to convince people that the way they are promoting is somehow wrong won't win YOU any customers either. And certainly no JV partners (even if they buy and use YOUR products).

      Good luck to you.

      Mike

      P.S. Mike Hill is right about one thing...your POLL is useless. Especially in a forum where there's a generally negative outlook about ANYTHING related to Guru's. You could have asked if people are sick of Guru's always creating and releasing new products and chances are, you would have gotten similar results.
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  • Profile picture of the author Li Weng
    I suck at PPC, PERIOD.

    so when my list asks me for PPC advice, I guide them
    to KNOWN experts and their products based on reputation
    + recommendation from other marketers I trust.

    Let's put it this way.

    If Tiger Woods was offering a training course on golf.

    Would I promote it to my list without personally spending
    years to train myself to become a pro golfer with his
    training methods first?

    You Bet.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
    Chris,

    Your post makes no sense.

    You are responsible for your own actions.

    It seems you feel they have some power over you and you are reaching for a cure.

    You can stop it anytime you like. Turn it off. Vote with the button.
    Signature
    This is where you get real information (backed up by proven results)
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