Why the heck would anyone want a list of 10k subcriberss?

30 replies
...When you could get a list of 1k buyers?

After studying this pretty closely for a couple years, I've come to the conclusion that list building is useless if you're not training people to pick up their wallets and start buying.

The most profitable lists I've had to this day haven't been big or even moderately large. They have been tiny. We're talking 500-1000 people.

But who cares if my list is only 400 people if I can make 700 dollars on a single broadcast?

Personally, I am done with the free opt in bullcrap. Why should I train a subscriber to get on my list for free?

My products aren't free. My services aren't free. My time isn't free.

I feel like if you can even sell a 5 dollar product or a 30 day trial with a credit card on file, that's 10 times better than having someone opt in for free and get some stupid ebook.

So cut it out already. It's not making you money.
#10k #heck #list #subcriberss
  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post


    So cut it out already. It's not making you money.
    I agree to some extent.

    What you really need is a funnel. If you grab free subscribers, you work your butt off to get them to purchase that first product.

    You hit them hard - 2 times or more a day until they either:

    1. Purchase.
    2. Unsubscribe.

    If they don't purchase and don't unsub, you hit them with affiliate offers after a month.

    After they buy, you treat them completely different. You protect them like no other.

    Rob
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825653].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
      Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

      I agree to some extent.

      What you really need is a funnel. If you grab free subscribers, you work your butt off to get them to purchase that first product.

      You hit them hard - 2 times or more a day until they either:

      1. Purchase.
      2. Unsubscribe.

      If they don't purchase and don't unsub, you hit them with affiliate offers after a month.

      After they buy, you treat them completely different. You protect them like no other.

      Rob
      None of these ideas are bad at all!

      To be honest, I am kind of just playing devil's advocate to see who will say what, but I do believe very firmly that even a 2 dollar purchase to get on someone's list is WAY better than no money at all.

      At least figure out they have a functional credit card before you start paying money every month to have them in your autoresponder!

      But that's a fairly good way to do it if you're not going to ask for a purchase before the opt in.
      Signature

      No signature here today!

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825664].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

        None of these ideas are bad at all!

        To be honest, I am kind of just playing devil's advocate to see who will say what, but I do believe very firmly that even a 2 dollar purchase to get on someone's list is WAY better than no money at all.
        .
        Totally!

        Even a buck or 99 cents is better than nothing.

        Do a 99 cent trial for 14 days.

        And your free info (if you choose this route) goes something like this:

        Squeeze Page -> Free video that SELLS something at the end of the "freebie" -> Upsell for larger price.

        If they don't purchase immediately, you seriously hit them up twice a day, every day, for a month.

        I used to buy into this mamby pampy bull crap of "gotta give them lots of free info every day forever because I want to be nice", garbage.

        I didn't make any money then.

        After I woke up - things changed.

        When you are paying for traffic (time or money or both), and these leads are eating up resources (in actual hard costs in both acquisition costs and costs to store on an autoresponder) you want to sell them hard on your first product until they either buy or get off the list.

        Rob
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825700].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
          Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

          I used to buy into this mamby pampy bull crap of "gotta give them lots of free info every day forever because I want to be nice", garbage.
          You sir just summed up my entire anger with list building via freebies! Lol

          There's definitely a good middle ground here, but if I ever go for a freebie list, I'm changing it to a 2 dollar WSO list instead just to make sure ya got a damn credit card!
          Signature

          No signature here today!

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825720].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author PaulSilver
          I agree here, one of my squeeze pages I'm running offers a "free" video which then sells something at the end of the video, and has exit splash pages with an OTO and I see much better results than with another page I have that offers a "free report" then the paid offers are sent via auto-responder...
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826049].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author PaulyC
      Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

      I agree to some extent.

      What you really need is a funnel. If you grab free subscribers, you work your butt off to get them to purchase that first product.

      You hit them hard - 2 times or more a day until they either:

      1. Purchase.
      2. Unsubscribe.

      If they don't purchase and don't unsub, you hit them with affiliate offers after a month.

      After they buy, you treat them completely different. You protect them like no other.

      Rob
      Golden... Forget that, platinum advice right here!!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5827072].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jamesrich1
    You can have two lists. A freebie seeker list who you can build trust with over time and convert into your buyer list. Every marketer should always get the information of each visitor and then build trust through showing extreme value to turn the visitor into a buyer. I understand with your thinking. A buyers list is GREAT, but not every body buys right off the back.

    It takes me several exposures to buy something from a marketer and that is how most of the consumers operate. I won't buy until I trust someone is going to deliver what they are promising.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825669].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dann Vicker
    Yes I agree with Rob. For me, its incredibly faster to build up a list by giving away something free, and if I can easily turn 10% of this list into buyers, which my statistics show I'm doing, I'd definitely be on the right track.

    Dann
    Signature

    Looking for high quality solo ad traffic? 200-2000 clicks available/day. Testimonials here. PM me

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825677].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ryanmilligan
    Banned
    If you know what you're doing you can easily turn a 10k list of subscribers in to a 10k list of buyers.

    Essentially the more the merrier(spelling?!)

    I said easily, but I didn't really mean easily. But it can and has been done.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825710].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    I *highly* recommend everyone read Dan Kennedy's book, "No BS Price Strategy":

    Amazon.com: No B.S. Price Strategy: The Ultimate...Amazon.com: No B.S. Price Strategy: The Ultimate...

    It has some SUPER eye opening information about the dangers of FREE. And how/why you should charge more. (that fits the business and market)

    Rob
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825723].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author James Basher
    i actually made my most amount of money ever online with a basic free cd offer to a free 1 on 1 consultation selling them a $2000 product.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825755].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
      Originally Posted by rathnavelpandian View Post

      i actually made my most amount of money ever online with a basic free cd offer to a free 1 on 1 consultation selling them a $2000 product.
      What's the details?
      Signature

      No signature here today!

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825767].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
        You need to think more strategically.

        If you only have a paid entry point to your marketing
        funnel, then you'll build a smaller buyer's list.

        Why?

        Because people buy when they're ready to buy, not
        when you're ready to sell.

        Sure, some people will buy right away but the vast
        majority of subscribers will buy later on (and some
        will never ever buy of course).

        Therefore, I think it's better to give away some
        information for free - but very strategically.

        That way, you get more people into your marketing
        funnel and convert more people into buyers along the
        way.

        So, have a free opt-in gift and an irresistible front-end
        offer that's designed to convert subscribers into buyers.

        Then work on moving them through your funnel where
        you give them even more value at higher price points.

        End result = you build a bigger buyer's list and you
        have a follow-up sequence that works automatically
        on converting the non-buyers into buyers.

        Dedicated to mutual success,

        Shaun
        Signature

        .

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825843].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
          Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

          Because people buy when they're ready to buy, not
          when you're ready to sell.
          This is a great point. But still. Do you really need to think long and hard about a 5 dollar purchase?

          I had an offer from Travis Sago that was 5 dollars the other day. Didn't think. I just bought. It was a great offer and he's a great businessman. And if I didn't do it, I wouldn't be worth having on ANYONE's list.

          Know what I mean?
          Signature

          No signature here today!

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825873].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
            Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

            This is a great point. But still. Do you really need to think long and hard about a 5 dollar purchase?
            I don't think long and hard about a $5 purchase... but
            some people do.

            You can ignore that reality of human nature if you want
            to, but I'll guarantee you'll end up with a smaller buyer's
            list.

            I prefer to flow with the psychology of my target market
            than to swim against the tide.

            Dedicated to mutual success,

            Shaun
            Signature

            .

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825904].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
              Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

              I prefer to flow with the psychology of my target market
              than to swim against the tide.
              I think in this instance we are just going to end up swimming in different tides.
              Signature

              No signature here today!

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825932].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Palusko
            If I offered you the same deal, would you buy from me? I bet you'd be quite reluctant, wouldn't you.
            You bought from Travis, because you knew him, you trusted him.
            And with a few exceptions, I need to know (or at least feel) that I can trust you. In other words, I'd be hesitant to get on your list straight as buyer. But I certainly can become one later on.

            Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

            This is a great point. But still. Do you really need to think long and hard about a 5 dollar purchase?

            I had an offer from Travis Sago that was 5 dollars the other day. Didn't think. I just bought. It was a great offer and he's a great businessman. And if I didn't do it, I wouldn't be worth having on ANYONE's list.

            Know what I mean?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826287].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
              Originally Posted by Palusko View Post

              If I offered you the same deal, would you buy from me? I bet you'd be quite reluctant, wouldn't you.
              You bought from Travis, because you knew him, you trusted him.
              And with a few exceptions, I need to know (or at least feel) that I can trust you. In other words, I'd be hesitant to get on your list straight as buyer. But I certainly can become one later on.
              Well, I bought an interesting 4 dollar WSO after reading the thread for a few minutes and realizing there was some value to it.

              I don't see why it can't work the same way with this, at least for those who are action takers and know what they are looking for.
              Signature

              No signature here today!

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826294].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Personally, I am done with the free opt in bullcrap. Why should I train a subscriber to get on my list for free?
    This sentence is assuming that a free prospect doesn't have any monetary value, which is only true if they:

    a. Don't purchase anything, ever.....which is possible, since there are a lot of freebie seekers.

    b. Never refer another customer.

    That's why most people have a prospect list, a buyer's list, and then there are marketers who further segment their lists. I'm with Shaun and Rob, it really depends on your strategy and your funnel.

    And if people aren't opening up their wallets, then there isn't enough value or there aren't offers being made, or something else in the marketing machine is off base (could even be poor sales copy).

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5825985].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      That's why most people have a prospect list, a buyer's list, and then there are marketers who further segment their lists. I'm with Shaun and Rob, it really depends on your strategy and your funnel.
      Right, and that's a smart strategy, but my only point is don't you think it might work a little bit better if instead of a prospect list you simply replaced that with a low level buyer's list to make sure you only get buyers onto your list?
      Signature

      No signature here today!

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826091].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
        Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

        Right, and that's a smart strategy, but my only point is don't you think it might work a little bit better if instead of a prospect list you simply replaced that with a low level buyer's list to make sure you only get buyers onto your list?
        I guess I'm not following you here. Are you saying to have someone drive traffic and only collect the opt-ins of people who buy, thereby only building a "buyer's list" and not a prospect list? Certainly in some funnels and business models that would make sense. But generally speaking, it's usually not the case.

        So if that's the case, it's neglecting a certain % of buyers who won't buy until they read the 3rd, 4th, or 7th e-mail / RSS feed/ podcast/ video/ automated phone message / text/ etc...... It's not uncommon for me to get an e-mail from someone who told me they bought my product after a year's worth of receiving e-mail messages from my company. I don't want to miss out on those customers, especially since a certain % are going to turn into long term customers.

        If you're building a prospect list and you want to market a product with a low price point, such as $1, $3, or whatever, you're building a buyer's list anyway but you're getting the added benefit of having a prospect list. They're not necessarily mutually exclusive, which is why I'm asking for clarification.

        Another VERY effective strategy for some marketing funnels is to have people REGISTER into a free membership website, giving them content and then showing them the benefits or premium membership and/or marketing other products / services to them.

        I'm just trying to understand what point you're trying to drive home and I guess I'm not following.

        RoD
        Signature
        "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
        - Jim Rohn
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826798].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author myob
          In some marketing models, it is very effective to screen out the free-loaders and tire-kickers by adding only buyers to subscriber lists.

          Admittedly, a significant percentage of potential buyers may be neglected, but this is often offset by more active lists with significantly faster conversions, particularly when promoting incrementally higher end products.

          For example, I always build my niche lists with nominally-priced Clickbank products which are subsequently marketed to as many as 700 other affiliate products over the course of the autoresponder promotion sequence.

          Non-buyers are unceremoniously dumped out of the sales funnel periodically throughout the cycle. In some sales circles this is referred to as "pre-qualifying" prospects for my high end affiliate product sales.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5827057].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post


          If that's the case, it's neglecting a certain % of buyers who won't buy until they read the 3rd, 4th, or 7th e-mail / RSS feed/ podcast/ video/ automated phone message / text/ etc...... It's not uncommon for me to get an e-mail from someone who told me they bought my product after a year's worth of receiving e-mail messages from my company. I don't want to miss out on those customers, especially since a certain % are going to turn into long term customers.
          But you forget, doing this would also guarantee there are zero freebie seekers on your list.

          You may lose those customers that need to see a 3 dollar product 12 times in order to make a choice, but my guess (and this is of course just a guess) is that you will lose 1 or 2 of those guys for every 5 or 10 useless freebie seekers you quit wasting your time with.

          Obviously I don't have the data to prove this, and I'm beginning to think that just about nobody does. Hence it's simply an idea and an argument, not what I'm claiming to be a fact!

          Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

          Another VERY effective strategy for some marketing funnels is to have people REGISTER into a free membership website, giving them content and then showing them the benefits or premium membership and/or marketing other products / services to them.
          I love this model, the classic freemium.

          But I still think there's a place that getting the credit card up front helps with in here.

          Imagine instead of freemium you signed them up for a 30 day trial with a credit card and the option to downgrade to the limited, free version at any time. You would at least know they have some sort of buying power before giving them access, so you know they're not some broke kid or a homeless guy at your local library.

          Wouldn't that be much better?
          Signature

          No signature here today!

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5827078].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
            Originally Posted by Cataclysm1987 View Post

            But you forget, doing this would also guarantee there are zero freebie seekers on your list.
            Nope, I'm not forgetting that fact at all. In all my testing I've never seen a real advantage to doing it this way. Though Paul Uhl does bring up a good point that it CAN be advantagous to do it this way with certain products. Though you didn't give a specific market or product price point, so we're going with generalizations here. Generally, I have found it much more profitable to build a prospect list and a buyer's list. Of course, you continue to market to the buyer's list with back-end offers.

            You may lose those customers that need to see a 3 dollar product 12 times in order to make a choice, but my guess (and this is of course just a guess) is that you will lose 1 or 2 of those guys for every 5 or 10 useless freebie seekers you quit wasting your time with.

            Obviously I don't have the data to prove this, and I'm beginning to think that just about nobody does. Hence it's simply an idea and an argument, not what I'm claiming to be a fact!
            Not true, many professional marketers who track this data do, in fact, have access to this information, down to the last penny. I've been building lists for over a decade in over 50 different markets and the overwhelming majority of the time I've done better offering something for free, building up my prospect lists while building my buyer's list.

            I then prune those buyer lists until I have them into a "high ticket" buyer's list, such as private coaching or consulting, as one example.

            I love this model, the classic freemium. But I still think there's a place that getting the credit card up front helps with in here.
            I agree with you there is a place for that and Paul Uhl gave a good example of this.

            Imagine instead of freemium you signed them up for a 30 day trial with a credit card and the option to downgrade to the limited, free version at any time. You would at least know they have some sort of buying power before giving them access, so you know they're not some broke kid or a homeless guy at your local library.

            Wouldn't that be much better?
            Based on what though? Since I've never tested that specific model I couldn't answer that one. The way I get rid of freebie seekers is that I segement and prune my lists. It's easy and simple to do.

            What I have tested is not building a prospect list and only a buyer's list and I was leaving a ton of money on the table.

            RoD
            Signature
            "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
            - Jim Rohn
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5827182].message }}
  • Wow quite an interesting point that I must say I agree with to some extent. Hmm..got some thinking to do. For now I will build both lists...buying from my product sales, and the free opt-in list.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826096].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author leadgenninja
    Great post! I'm starting to realize this as well. My time is better suited to building a list of buyers. My buyers lists outperform the freebies by such a huge margin it's not even funny.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826100].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kal Sallam
    Have you heard of the Word " Trust" ok assuming you did ...Giving out something for free as a low

    Barrier Entry to your funnel builds trust...and that helps conversions.

    Now with a killer funnel you would be able to build that nice sized BUYERS List your talking about.

    I'm not saying many will buy but you only need some anyway, and here is when you segment your list.

    On a another note, and this is one thing many people never consider! you can sell the clicks!p
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826240].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
      Originally Posted by Kal Sallam View Post

      Have you heard of the Word " Trust" ok assuming you did ...Giving out something for free as a low

      Barrier Entry to your funnel builds trust...and that helps conversions.

      Now with a killer funnel you would be able to build that nice sized BUYERS List your talking about.

      On a another note, and this is one thing many people never consider! you can sell the clicks!
      Kal, you don't think I could build enough trust to convert a 3 or 4 dollar sale within a few minutes time?

      And if the product delivered is worth much more than the price asked, wouldn't that be a great way to build trust while making sure the subscriber is a buyer and a decision maker?
      Signature

      No signature here today!

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826254].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author fenixpro
    I think it all depends on what your goals are with the list. A list can be used in multiple ways. Yes, buyers and prospects of course and content and promos, etc. But also, the entire list or each part of it can be used as a business in and of it self by selling solo ads and doing swaps.

    I know of people who build lists to around 3-4K and then start over and do it again. They maintain around 4K subs per list do solos on each list each day. Depending on the clicks they can drive, that's a lot of money per day selling solos.

    Like most everything else, I would say it all depends on your predilection and your abilities. The top email marketers can make thousands off of a small list and some marketers can't make 1K off of a huge list.
    Signature

    You Are Not Your Thoughts
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5826404].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Adrian Int
    I've gotta side with Shaun, Rob, and Rod on this one..

    I doubt anyone would argue against the proposition that buyers give us better results...

    What seems to be an issue is whether or not we (as marketers) should take the time to build a list of prospects at all. Personally, I would argue in favour of this.


    I should have quoted this point, but someone who posted above mentioned that, in a nut shell, not everyone will buy after their first impression.

    That's the truth.


    In my own experience in sales offline you can greatly increase your conversion rates by simply giving your prospects more opportunities to "get to know you".

    Call me old fashioned but people buy the salesman, not the product. If people buy the product, then there's no need for a salesman now is there? :p

    I use this idea in my online business as well, and I think you should consider doing so as well. Setting up an autoresponder that markets automatically is a great way to start trying to turn the prospect into a customer you wouldn't have had if you'd ignored their needs completely.


    The next question that comes up is probably... "Do I even want this person on my list?"

    That's a decision you'll need to make for your own business/niche. Personally, I like customers and clients who take time to make sure they're making a good purchase. They tended to be less susceptible to offers from professionals in my field, and they also tended to give me better referrals.

    If you're just pushing affiliate products all day long they prospect the person on your list doesn't need to trust just you (though it helps), they'll need to trust the offer as well.

    If you're pushing your own products, then taking the time to build that trust is worth it in exchange for those long-term clients in my book.


    One last thing with regards to barriers to entry as it's been mentioned by someone above...

    You'll get better quality e-mail lists if there's a barrier to entry for the list (ie: a purchase vs. a free report). This is why you should give people an opportunity to sign up for your list a second time somewhere in your funnel, especially if you're offering free information.

    Besides, even if it does cost money to get on the list doesn't mean you've got a "good" e-mail address.

    I'm probably not the only person in the world whose paypal e-mail address is NOT their primary e-mail address. I have no idea how many lists that address is on from people auto-adding the paypal address with purchase. What I can tell you is that I rarely, if ever, open any of the e-mails it gets.... And chances are poor that I'm going to bother unsubscribing since I rarely use it anyway.

    Your prospect (or customer) will give you the e-mail address they think you're worthy of.


    Cheers,
    -Adrian
    Signature
    ATTENTION: Improve your list building. Free report and mp3
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5827306].message }}

Trending Topics