When Do Pre-Sales WSO Questions In The WSO Forum Cross The Line From Questions To Debate?

by tpw
108 replies
I have been noticing a new trend recently that people will ask "pre-sales" questions in WSO's, which is perfectly acceptable to do and encouraged by product creators.

The product creator will then answer the question, laying out the facts, so that the reader can make his or her decision.

Then the offer goes to crap as more and more people, who dislike the answer given by the seller, jump into the fray to pontificate about the seller's answer.

Too many WSO's are turning into a debate team match.

So, where should we as product creators and observers draw the line.

When should observers hit the Report button on those posts?

I say, "Let the facts be made public, then let the offer ride on its merits."

I also believe that certain forum members are going to far by responding to the seller answers by saying things to the tune of, "Well, I don't like your answer, so I am not going to buy."

These folks are polluting the pond, by influencing others not to buy also...

Colin Theriot recently defined this kind of thing:

Bandwagoning - the likelihood of an individual to comply with a certain behavior is proportional to the number of people who have already done so.
So, where in the process does a line get crossed? Where is the line that shows "not far enough" and "too far"?

I understand that this is an absolutely gray area, but as an interested observer, I would like to know when I should hit that little red button.
#cross #debate #forum #line #presales #questions #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I don't think that people should be responding with their "opinions" on these answers period. If you have a followup question? Then go for it. If you see an answer that turns you off of the product (and its like you said: enough to make them say "I don't want to buy") then just walk away.

    I hate Kix Cereal. I don't go to the cereal manufacturer though and say "I hate your cereal. I'm not buying. So nyaaaah." That would be a waste of everyone's time.

    Bad analogy? OK, let me get back to the point I was originally trying to make. In the scenario you are outlining, it would seem that a lot of this debate probably comes from people who never even ended up buying the product, right? What gives them the ability to comment on a product they didn't buy?

    I know I'm turning this gray situation into a black and white; but I feel that outside of literally asking a question or follow up question, non-customers have no business commenting on a WSO.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Good question, Bill. I have been away from the forum for a while due to the negativity.

    Common sense should be the line in any debate, but that seems to be less common these days.

    As a start I think it's a good idea for a vendor to make a list of all possible questions and or objections.. answer them and post them at the end of the sales copy.

    Secondly, the vendor should avoid over hyping the product.

    Thirdly, if you get that sort of reply, then I'd be inclined to post a standard remark such as: Thanks for your interest. I'm sorry the product isn't for you. Best wishes for the future. DO NOT enter into an argument. Just let it go and be the better person.

    If they sabotage the thread, report them. Simple.

    Now from the buyer's perspective...

    Use common sense. Your attitude is a reflection of your own beliefs. Understand that if you stir up a sh1t storm, then expect the same when you sell something.

    If the product isn't for you, then just let it be, ok? It's a market place no different to any other in the real world.

    Do you argue with people in a department store? Why do it here?

    Finally, if you have been screwed previously, stay away from WSO's. Simple. Don't keep going back.

    If you want to treated with respect, then show some respect for the seller's right to ply his/ her trade. Take to the PM board if needed.

    How would you feel if someone did it to you?

    Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill_Z
    It's really difficult to pin it down. But I think if the seller has answered the question reasonably and is given anything like what you stated: "Well, I don't like your answer, so I am not going to buy." -- then I would report it. Once a "dabate" starts it's time to start reporting. Most times it's easy to tell if the questions and comments are legitimate or just plain argumentative.
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    Then the offer goes to crap as more and more people, who dislike the answer given by the seller, jump into the fray to pontificate about the seller's answer.
    I would think this would be valuable feedback to the seller that their potential customers don't like whatever that is. No?

    Maybe the answer is to not let people ask questions at all. I mean if you go to a regular sales page outside of the warrior forum you don't have a list of questions and comments, you just get the sales letter and that is all.

    Potential customers can either email the seller with questions, buy it if they like what they see or move along.

    I guess if you are selling on the warrior forum, then you need to expect that kind of interaction, otherwise you could sell on a platform that does not allow it.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

      I would think this would be valuable feedback to the seller that their potential customers don't like whatever that is. No?

      Maybe the answer is to not let people ask questions at all. I mean if you go to a regular sales page outside of the warrior forum you don't have a list of questions and comments, you just get the sales letter and that is all.

      Potential customers can either email the seller with questions, buy it if they like what they see or move along.

      I guess if you are selling on the warrior forum, then you need to expect that kind of interaction, otherwise you could sell on a platform that does not allow it.
      I have to agree with Lee. Many people 'believe' that it is the 'interactive nature' of the forum which gives them the chance to have the 'social proof' that a traditional sales page doesn't. If they seller's want the benefits of that, then they'll just have to accept the drawbacks as well.

      Dani
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        According to the WSO rules, only those who have purchased can leave a comment.

        Maybe verbiage in the WSO and "reserved" post indicating that all pre-sale questions and support type questions should be sent to your support email/desk.

        That probably won't be popular since as WSO sellers, a lot of posts tends to be a good thing for eyeballs.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

        I have to agree with Lee. Many people 'believe' that it is the 'interactive nature' of the forum which gives them the chance to have the 'social proof' that a traditional sales page doesn't. If they seller's want the benefits of that, then they'll just have to accept the drawbacks as well.

        Dani
        Well, the rules are pretty clear. They don't have the right to trash a WSO thread if they have not purchased. They don't have the right to post opinions about a product that they have not purchased.

        I've seen more than one person that seems bent on trashing a WSO for unknown reasons. The report button in the WSO forum works well for those occasions.

        I've seen the same deliberate attempt at sabotage on Flippa comments, and it's even worse on Flippa because the seller can delete them and it leaves the comment as "deleted" and then that looks like he's trying to cover something up. In some cases he may be. In many cases, it's a competitor trying to trash his listing.

        The WSO threads are sales threads and are not "interactive" threads. They are for sales questions and presales questions, not for interjecting opinions about a product that they haven't bought and probably have no intention of buying.
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        • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Well, the rules are pretty clear. They don't have the right to trash a WSO thread if they have not purchased. They don't have the right to post opinions about a product that they have not purchased.

          I've seen more than one person that seems bent on trashing a WSO for unknown reasons. The report button in the WSO forum works well for those occasions.

          I've seen the same deliberate attempt at sabotage on Flippa comments, and it's even worse on Flippa because the seller can delete them and it leaves the comment as "deleted" and then that looks like he's trying to cover something up. In some cases he may be. In many cases, it's a competitor trying to trash his listing.

          The WSO threads are sales threads and are not "interactive" threads. They are for sales questions and presales questions, not for interjecting opinions about a product that they haven't bought and probably have no intention of buying.
          I totally agree that not being allowed to 'trash' a WSO is the rule, and a good one. Without giving too much away, the 'instance' that started this went like this: Seller made a claim in the copy. When asked to provide any kind of credentials to prove that it could fulfill said claim, the seller responded with , "it only teaches you how to do (something else.)"

          The question that was asked did sound accusatory, I'll be the first to say so, but it came in direct response to a sales copy claim that was obviously not going to be fulfilled at all.

          It probably could have been handled more diplomatically, yes, but so could the responses have been.

          I believe we are told to point out when copy doesn't fulfill it's promises. I believe there's a rule about that somewhere too, but I could be wrong about that.

          ********

          I agree with David, if the product is not open for 'discussion' just because it's in a PAID advertising section of the forum, than selling, or buying from a forum is a bad idea as the social proof can't really be counted on at all if negative feedback is taboo now.

          There was a time when WSO's were great for testing out a product and getting feedback to tweak it and make it shine before taking it out to a larger market. I left very constructive feedback to that seller regarding the claims made in the copy, and that post was deleted. So it does seem that discussion is not permitted and feedback is not welcome unless it's a glowing testimonial, which removes any trust I ever had in the fact that this is a forum, where I can get others' feedback before making a buying decision, or where I can trust to get decent feedback on my own products.

          And to add insult to injury, the seller kept one part of my copy, a question about the product, and replied to it, without so much as thanking me for the very helpful and constructive criticism I left for him that got deleted. Do you think he'll get my business now?

          *******
          Any publisher that accepts money for advertising, must maintain a journalistic integrity. If it wants to maintain it's own reputation. I've never seen a newspaper or a magazine refuse to present a negative review of a product in a letter to the editor, simply because the product is one of their advertiser's products.

          *******
          I've had a WSO trashed, by someone who outright lied. It was most definitely turned into a 'discussion' on my PAID advertising. I reported it. But the post was allowed to stand. Like David, I decided that my own site/sales page was a better place to sell, where I don't have to put up with that good ole' boy stuff.

          -Dani
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

            I totally agree that not being allowed to 'trash' a WSO is the rule, and a good one. Without giving too much away, the 'instance' that started this went like this: Seller made a claim in the copy. When asked to provide any kind of credentials to prove that it could fulfill said claim, the seller responded with , "it only teaches you how to do (something else.)"

            -Dani
            It's interesting to see that so many WSOs have one claim or another, and many of them are unsubstantiated claims. I agree completely that the product should deliver exactly what it says it delivers, but I have never yet seen someone come into a thread and say I did this and made no money for a financial claim. Might be some around, but I haven't seen them.

            It seems like most people buy it, may try it out and then move on to the next shiny object when that one doesn't work out, and I imagine that some sellers would blame the buyer for it not working out.

            Just an observation.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
            Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

            Do you think he'll get my business now?
            Dani, I know who this was pointed to, and I have three comments on it.

            First - the situation in which you were commenting on was over with. You dug it back up on the thread and people involved were not interested having it all rehashed. You gave critiques over the copy and how to "handle the situation". Again, the parties involved were tired of dealing with it. It was over and done with.

            Second - The first question was a good question, thus, why delete it?

            Third - The WSO forum isn't a place to critique copy or claims. It's a place to discuss the product if you've purchased. Since you didn't purchase, you really didn't have a right to comment on anything other than ask a question about the product.

            Those are the rules set by the forum, not by the sellers.

            Finally, I want to say this - I don't think the sellers really care if you give them your business. That may seem insulting, but it isn't. Buy. Don't buy. It's business and who cares?

            Personally, I don't want people as customers who get upset over a deleted post, especially when that post broke the rules in the first place. But that's just me.

            Rob
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            • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
              Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

              Dani, I know who this was pointed to, and I have three comments on it.

              First - the situation in which you were commenting on was over with. You dug it back up on the thread and people involved were not interested having it all rehashed. You gave critiques over the copy and how to "handle the situation". Again, the parties involved were tired of dealing with it. It was over and done with.

              Second - The first question was a good question, thus, why delete it?

              Third - The WSO forum isn't a place to critique copy or claims. It's a place to discuss the product if you've purchased. Since you didn't purchase, you really didn't have a right to comment on anything other than ask a question about the product.

              Those are the rules set by the forum, not by the sellers.

              Finally, I want to say this - I don't think the sellers really care if you give them your business. That may seem insulting, but it isn't. Buy. Don't buy. It's business and who cares?

              Personally, I don't want people as customers who get upset over a deleted post, especially when that post broke the rules in the first place. But that's just me.

              Rob
              You're right Rob. I won't comment at all about how the seller themselves admits that the promises made in the copy will be unfulfilled.

              Not insulting at all to me at all. Sellers need to sell, I don't need to buy.

              As far as I knew, the post did not break the rules. The fact is, that when someone makes a complaint, the entire 'community' breaks out into their own versions of more, sometimes related sometimes not, complaints and the message gets lost. The fact is, the copy was making a promise that the seller admitted would not be fulfilled. Buyers have a right to know that, and smart sellers would say "Oh man, I can't believe I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out." And correct it. But egos sure do get in the way, don't they?
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

                But egos sure do get in the way, don't they?

                Your ego is not getting in the way of a civil discussion here either, is it?
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
                Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

                You're right Rob. I won't comment at all about how the seller themselves admits that the promises made in the copy will be unfulfilled.

                Not insulting at all to me at all. Sellers need to sell, I don't need to buy.

                As far as I knew, the post did not break the rules. The fact is, that when someone makes a complaint, the entire 'community' breaks out into their own versions of more, sometimes related sometimes not, complaints and the message gets lost. The fact is, the copy was making a promise that the seller admitted would not be fulfilled. Buyers have a right to know that, and smart sellers would say "Oh man, I can't believe I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out." And correct it. But egos sure do get in the way, don't they?

                Holy smokes aren't you a "Right Fighter"? I mean, you critiqued their copy inside their WSO? Did you read the WSO rules and more importantly DID YOU UNDERSTAND THEM?

                And as for Ego's.. yes they do get in the way (you've proven that every time you post on the subject)

                PS.
                Let it rest lady... get off your soapbox already!
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                • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  PS. [/B]Let it rest lady... get off your soapbox already!
                  Age before integrity, you first.
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                  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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                    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
                      So was his remark.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Joe Chill
                    Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

                    Age before integrity, you first.
                    Making the point for them. Nice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by cashcow View Post

      I would think this would be valuable feedback to the seller that their potential customers don't like whatever that is. No?

      Maybe the answer is to not let people ask questions at all. I mean if you go to a regular sales page outside of the warrior forum you don't have a list of questions and comments, you just get the sales letter and that is all.

      Potential customers can either email the seller with questions, buy it if they like what they see or move along.

      I guess if you are selling on the warrior forum, then you need to expect that kind of interaction, otherwise you could sell on a platform that does not allow it.
      Lee, the biggest problem is that there ARE some people who are out to purposely destroy WSO threads. They know that people will jump in and bitch too. It's human nature.

      I've seen it happen too many times. Someone who has some sort of stake in the game jumps in and dumps on the product.

      It then begins...you get a few people in there and it turns into a feeding fest.

      If the person had never posted...it would never be brought up.

      Finally, the numbers never lie. You would think that if there WAS a real problem, then sales/refunds would reflect it, right?

      This is actual not the case...most of the time most people are satisfied with the product. (93%+)

      So in the end, it's just bitching and "being right".

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

        Lee, the biggest problem is that there ARE some people who are out to purposely destroy WSO threads. They know that people will jump in and bitch too. It's human nature.

        I've seen it happen too many times. Someone who has some sort of stake in the game jumps in and dumps on the product.

        It then begins...you get a few people in there and it turns into a feeding fest.

        If the person had never posted...it would never be brought up.

        I have seen it too...

        I could give you a very specific example that does not include any of my threads.

        I could name the person who moved the conversation about the product to some pie-in-the-sky question about the product, but we cannot name names...

        I could name the victim too, but then you would know who I was talking about in the previous paragraph.

        In that case, it was said, more or less, "this product is crap". The person who moved the conversation had a competing product. The person was branding themselves in someone else's wso thread.

        Then the "bandwagoner's" climbed aboard the crazy train.

        The product was effectively killed with one competitor saying, "this product is crap."
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Joe nailed it:
          I don't think that people should be responding with their "opinions" on these answers period.
          Mike's comments also cleared the fence:
          I have seen a few Warriors lately busting into a WSO and asking questions designed to put doubt into a buyers mind. Then, when the seller has responded adequately that same Warrior asks a different question and keeps on going.

          This is a form of sabotage plain and simple.
          Yep. Report it when you see it.

          Joe,
          DAMMIT. I hate gray areas.
          Good thing you're not a moderator. You'd go nuts, in 3/4 time.

          Mike,
          I hear where you are coming from but when a Warrior flat out makes a comment to sabotage a WSO without ever buying it and when you go and see what niche they are in, low and behold it's the same niche.
          We ban people for that on a fairly regular basis.

          This is where a lot of people get confused about the difference between the discussion areas and the paid sales sections. In discussion areas, you WANT competitors in the conversation. The divergent ideas and approaches help people learn.

          In the sales areas, they have no place. Some folks will say, "I know what I'm talking about and this guy is just trying to rip people off!" And there's a small chance they might be right. More often, it's someone trying to punish a competitor, or "prove" their point is right by sabotaging them.

          I'll cut off debates in a sales thread after a single post that I'd consider to be highly valuable in a discussion area even if they hit 6 pages.

          Being a member here does NOT mean you have the right to force someone else to pay to subsidize your beliefs, and that's what these arguments in sales threads amount to.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Jerry Roberts
            I'm not sure what the answer is for this.

            A few times I've tried to play peacemaker on a thread that's gone out of control -- both here and on other forums -- and have basically been ignored. Once the battle lines are set and people start lobbing word grenades, reason and the search for truth are usually sacrificed.

            Sometimes the faceoffs are legit and sometimes it's out and out sabotage. Since saboteurs don't often admit to that, I'm guessing it's tough to determine guilt.

            I like the idea of people not being permitted to post unless they have bought the product, but that would be a policing nightmare.

            Just a thought...how about requiring people to check a box that they have opened a ticket with the seller's help desk (or otherwise contacted support), before they can post complaints?

            One of my subscribers had a major issue with a big name seller this week and showed remarkable restraint. He communicated with me as I was the affiliate on the sale, but did not post to the thread. Instead, he opened up a ticket, and I PM'd the seller.

            It took a couple of followups to the help desk, but he finally got the issue resolved to his satisfaction.

            He is in the minority.

            So many others just take the easy way, soiling the thread -- even when it's not entirely sure who is at fault...if anyone.

            Maybe that little check box would stop some people, get them to contact support, and save a few threads.

            There are no easy answers here, and the problem isn't going away any time soon.

            Thanks, Bill, for bringing it up.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Jerry Roberts View Post

              Thanks, Bill, for bringing it up.

              You're welcome.


              Originally Posted by Jerry Roberts View Post

              Just a thought...how about requiring people to check a box that they have opened a ticket with the seller's help desk (or otherwise contacted support), before they can post complaints?

              This would never fly, unless Allen forced sellers to conform to his technology.

              Since sellers tend to use one of six payment processing systems, and dozens of varieties of help desk software, I don't see how it could even be a possibility.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jerry Roberts
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                This would never fly, unless Allen forced sellers to conform to his technology.

                Since sellers tend to use one of six payment processing systems, and dozens of varieties of help desk software, I don't see how it could even be a possibility.

                You're probably right. I was just thinking that the mere act of having to indicate that you did contact support might actually get more people to do that, thus keeping some of the noise off the threads.

                I don't see it as being something the mods would police.

                Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Jerry Roberts View Post

                  You're probably right. I was just thinking that the mere act of having to indicate that you did contact support might actually get more people to do that, thus keeping some of the noise off the threads.

                  I don't see it as being something the mods would police.

                  Sorry if I wasn't clear.

                  I understand where you were coming from Jerry, totally.

                  I also remember having seen this mentioned before, argued for pages, and rejected by management.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Jerry,

              I've seen you being the voice of reason in those kinds of discussions on several occasions. Sadly, the lines had already been drawn. Egos were inflamed and, as you know, reason has little effect once that happens.

              Of course, sometimes the arguments are the result of one party trying to blackmail the other. Once that starts, it usually won't stop until a moderator invites them both to a game of "Noose or Ladder."


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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                it usually won't stop until a moderator invites them both to a game of "Noose or Ladder."


                Paul

                That is my favorite game, so long as I am in the audience and not on the firing line. :p
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              • Profile picture of the author Jerry Roberts
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Jerry,

                I've seen you being the voice of reason in those kinds of discussions on several occasions. Sadly, the lines had already been drawn. Egos were inflamed and, as you know, reason has little effect once that happens.

                Of course, sometimes the arguments are the result of one party trying to blackmail the other. Once that starts, it usually won't stop until a moderator invites them both to a game of "Noose or Ladder."

                Paul

                You're absolutely right. I was there when you shut one down, as the combatants didn't seem interested in resolution...only perpetuating the argument.

                I think you and others do a good job of sifting through the debris to figure things out.

                We know that there are sloppy product creators who invite their problems, and that there are sinister forces who attempt to wreck a competitor's thread. I don't see either of these situations going away.

                I'm not in favor of comments being turned off, as it's one of the key ways I become aware of people on the WF and network.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    I would like to know when I should hit that little red button.
    Okay...get ready...almost there...hold on a second...almost there...get ready...almost there...HIT IT!!!!

    I think that generally any comments or opinions that aren't fact based and about the WSO in question that distract from the sales process should not be allowed.

    What it comes down to is this: If a user asks a presell question like "how much traffic transfer does the hosting come with" to an offer that includes hosting but this isn't spelled out and the answer is something totally unreasonable like 2 MB every 3 months, does the asker have the "right" to respond with something like "really? how are we supposed to use the blogs you're selling then? or should they just let potential buyers make their own decisions now that more of the "facts" of the offer are clear?

    I definitely think comments like "well since you're not answering John's and Mary's support tickets I can see how you are and I know I can't trust you so you've just lost another customer" should not be allowed.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Here's my thoughts...

    I have seen a few Warriors lately busting into a WSO and asking questions designed to put doubt into a buyers mind. Then, when the seller has responded adequately that same Warrior asks a different question and keeps on going.

    This is a form of sabotage plain and simple.

    If these Warriors didn't have a hidden agenda then why would they continue if they didn't like a particular answer? Why not just leave without buying?

    And, when the question is answered, all of a sudden they ask for people's pen names or something else the seller may not want to reveal, nor should they feel compelled to reveal.

    I don't know about you but I cannot remember a time when someone went into Coca-Cola and asked for the Secret Recipe just so they could see if they would like it or not?

    The Warriors I've seen do this type of sabotage are only responding to certain types of WSO's. Coincidentally it's the same niche they are involved in.

    Food for thought!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Kovats
    "Ok Thank's", should be the standard answer. A positive vote for the product should be hitting the Buy Now button. Other than that, if you aren't happy, walk away and look for another offer. I think legitimate complaints about service, unanswered emails or PM's from the supplier, should be warranted with the thread, provided every other method was tried first. Not every complaint, or refund request needs to be in a public thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I had a guy post on one of my WSO's one time that I did not have the right to sell my product for more than $7.

    He suggested I should lower my price point to $4, and he may consider buying.

    I reported that post and sent the guy a pm telling them that I set my prices where I want to set them, and if he didn't like my price, he should just hit the Back button.

    He never responded.

    I have told people on several of my wso's that if they don't like my answers, then don't buy my products. I mean it too. I am not trying to force feed anyone.

    If you like my copy, buy my stuff. If you don't like my copy, don't buy my stuff. And if you are sitting on the fence, I have a 60-day money back guarantee.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      If you like my copy, buy my stuff. If you don't like my copy, don't buy my stuff. And if you are sitting on the fence, I have a 60-day money back guarantee.
      "Yeah but does that come with a refund for the wasted time and lost hair?"

      I've seen comments similar to those. Unnecessary and reportable in my opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

        "Yeah but does that come with a refund for the wasted time and lost hair?"

        If I remember right, you didn't have that much hair BEFORE you bought my product...

        So, you won't be able to prove that I am responsible for your "lost hair"... :p
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    • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      ...

      I reported that post and sent the guy a pm telling them that I set my prices where I want to set them, and if he didn't like my price, he should just hit the Back button.
      ...
      Yeah, one guy made TWO posts about why he wouldn't buy my WSO - I had those posts very swiftly removed.

      Some people just need a place to vent out frustration - but, please they shouldn't do it on my WSO thread!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    People who go in and make comments that are unwarranted, they have no intentions to buy and break the WSO Rules should be sent a PayPal bill for $40...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Related but totally different question:

    If we don't let people who haven't purchased yet make NEGATIVE comments, should we let people who haven't purchased yet make POSITIVE comments?

    Example: "John is a stand up guy and every time I have bought from him in the past, I've been impressed with the support he gives his customers. Just give him some time - he's probably just swamped with all the orders. He'll get back to you soon I'm sure."

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      Related but totally different question:

      If we don't let people who haven't purchased yet make NEGATIVE comments, should we let people who haven't purchased yet make POSITIVE comments?

      Example: "John is a stand up guy and every time I have bought from him in the past, I've been impressed with the support he gives his customers. Just give him some time - he's probably just swamped with all the orders. He'll get back to you soon I'm sure."

      Mark
      Well for the sake of uniformity in this hypothetical I would say yes, those should be left out as well. That way you don't get the naysayers crying about "censorship" and all that.

      Although, I can see how the example comment would be relevant. Each WSO is not an isolated case and the overall character of the Warrior should come into effect.

      DAMMIT. I hate gray areas .
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    I have been noticing a new trend recently that people will ask "pre-sales" questions in WSO's, which is perfectly acceptable to do and encouraged by product creators.

    The product creator will then answer the question, laying out the facts, so that the reader can make his or her decision.

    Then the offer goes to crap as more and more people, who dislike the answer given by the seller, jump into the fray to pontificate about the seller's answer.

    Too many WSO's are turning into a debate team match.

    So, where should we as product creators and observers draw the line.

    When should observers hit the Report button on those posts?

    I say, "Let the facts be made public, then let the offer ride on its merits."

    I also believe that certain forum members are going to far by responding to the seller answers by saying things to the tune of, "Well, I don't like your answer, so I am not going to buy."

    These folks are polluting the pond, by influencing others not to buy also...

    Colin Theriot recently defined this kind of thing:



    So, where in the process does a line get crossed? Where is the line that shows "not far enough" and "too far"?

    I understand that this is an absolutely gray area, but as an interested observer, I would like to know when I should hit that little red button.

    I say if they are not seriously interested in purchasing, or have not already purchased, they have no business asking questions in your thread.

    Secondly, if they don't like your answer they should, in most cases, take it up with you via PM.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
    I have two things to say on this:

    1 - Some so-called "products" are absolutely awful time-wasters for everybody. They exist simply to try to grift money out of newbies who so desperately want to believe the glitzy sales copy promises. And some products are blatant bloody rip-offs of other people's work.

    2 - Too many people have a JEALOUS streak and simply hate seeing others achieve what they aspire to but do not have the work ethic or talent for. Hence, they will try to rubbish good people and trash their products.

    The key is to be able to discern between the two.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
      Originally Posted by Gary Simpson View Post

      I have two things to say on this:

      1 - Some so-called "products" are absolutely awful time-wasters for everybody. They exist simply to try to grift money out of newbies who so desperately want to believe the glitzy sales copy promises. And some products are blatant bloody rip-offs of other people's work.

      2 - Too many people have a JEALOUS streak and simply hate seeing others achieve what they aspire to but do not have the work ethic or talent for. Hence, they will try to rubbish good people and trash their products.

      The key is to be able to discern between the two.

      And how would those Warriors who make comments on the WSO do that without buying them?

      I hear where you are coming from but when a Warrior flat out makes a comment to sabotage a WSO without ever buying it and when you go and see what niche they are in, low and behold it's the same niche.

      It's almost like their is a "click" out there who do nothing but go around slamming WSO's without buying them just because they are in their niche.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sam England
      I callem lynch mobs...or feeding piranha...

      I get so upset over this topic that I am gonna stay out of this one...gets my blood boiling...there is always a time and place...my time to vent is not now...

      Most of you all know what I mean!!!

      I hope you cool peeps have a FANTASTIC day...
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
    @ Mike and Sam - go to ANY youtube video and just have a quick glance at the majority of comments below them and how negative and puerile they are - not to mention the foul language. Why do those people even bother to waste their time showing to all the world how idiotic they are?

    Quite often the better the video the more disgusting comments and unlikes it will get.

    Relative anonymity and hiding remotely and safely behind a keyboard emboldens far to many mice to grow into bloated rats.
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    • Profile picture of the author Istvan Horvath
      Originally Posted by Gary Simpson View Post

      @ Mike and Sam - go to ANY youtube video and just have a quick glance at the majority of comments below them and how negative and puerile they are - not to mention the foul language. Why do those people even bother to waste their time showing to all the world how idiotic they are?

      Quite often the better the video the more disgusting comments and unlikes it will get.

      Relative anonymity and hiding remotely and safely behind a keyboard emboldens far to many mice to grow into bloated rats.
      I have noticed the same idiotic ( you call them "puerile") comments even on the most prestigious news/newspaper sites - where you'd think the readership is a relatively highly educated, eloquent segment of the population...

      Oh boy, what a bitter disappointment!
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    Colin Theriot recently defined this kind of thing:

    Bandwagoning - the likelihood of an individual to comply with a certain behavior is proportional to the number of people who have already done so.
    This was defined a LONG time before Colin was even probably born... it's known as 'Social Proof'.

    Social Proof is a psychological phenomenon where people assume the actions of others reflect correct behavior for a given situation. This effect is prominent in ambiguous social situations where people are unable to determine the appropriate mode of behavior, and is driven by the assumption that surrounding people possess more knowledge about the situation.

    Social proof is a type of conformity. When a person is in a situation where they are unsure of the correct way to behave, they will often look to others for cues concerning the correct behavior.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof
    In regards to the OP, you have to take the good with the bad. The forum creates great social proof and sometimes that can influence people both positively and negatively. I think once a question has been answered it is not up for buyers to then debate that. If they don't like the answer they simply do not buy but they shouldn't then turn it into a heated debate.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      This was defined a LONG time before Colin was even probably born... it's known as 'Social Proof'.

      Social proof from people who never reviewed the product is called a fake review.

      And social proof from people who have an ulterior motive is no proof at all.



      Edit: You added the definition of social proof after I posted. You are right good sir.
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      • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Social proof from people who never reviewed the product is called a fake review.

        And social proof from people who have an ulterior motive is no proof at all.



        Edit: You added the definition of social proof after I posted. You are right good sir.
        But what about if i get a free review copy, I decide its a great product and I want to promote it.

        By this reckoning I cant then go and leave my thoughts on the product because I Will be making commissions on sales.

        This is to assume that I would leave a good review on a bad product just to make sales. Do we really live in a world where we make rules that punish good people because there are some bad out there
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        • Profile picture of the author cjreynolds
          Social Proof is a psychological phenomenon where people assume the actions of others reflect correct behavior for a given situation. This effect is prominent in ambiguous social situations where people are unable to determine the appropriate mode of behavior, and is driven by the assumption that surrounding people possess more knowledge about the situation.

          Social proof is a type of conformity. When a person is in a situation where they are unsure of the correct way to behave, they will often look to others for cues concerning the correct behavior.
          Related to the "broken window" syndrome - studies have found that an abandoned building in an inner-city neighborhood can sometimes last for years without anyone breaking any windows in it. Then once someone breaks one of the windows, all of them get broken within days.

          How like sheep we are :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mike,

      That sounds good, until you consider that the only thing between a scam artist or sloppy product creator and a lot of wasted customer money is often the reviews of early buyers.

      I think the current system is likely to prevent more harm than the one you suggest. It's not perfect, and we're open to suggestions to improve it, but they'll need to allow for customer feedback.


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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mike,
          I don't really see any way to improve it on it as it is
          I can think of one, at least. For everyone to read and understand the rules, and report anything that breaks them.

          There was a WSO this evening that drew a lot of reports of nasty behavior on the parts of both prospects and sellers. It wasn't until one fellow mentioned that the product broke WSO rules that I went and read the offer itself. He was right.

          Ended the problem, right quick.

          The rest involves people learning to think critically. Not happening en masse any time soon.


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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            I can think of one, at least. For everyone to read and understand the rules, and report anything that breaks them.

            I don't know Paul... That seems to be asking a lot from some folks... :p



            Unfortunately, the rules aren't always so clear, which is the reason I posted this thread today...

            There are some things that are happening that leave even intelligent people scratching their heads as to whether the poster is within the rules or not...

            You know that it is possible to walk at the cliff's ledge, without ever falling off, right?

            I have seen more cases of this recently than what you discovered earlier this evening.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Bill,
              There are some things that are happening that leave even intelligent people scratching their heads as to whether the poster is within the rules or not...
              Yep. Not as many as it might seem, but there are those "toss a coin" situations.

              The one in question was pretty clear to me. Argued the responses, and expressed opinions (slanted, at that), rather than than asking questions and making a choice based on the answers.


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            • Profile picture of the author Gary Simpson
              Understanding the rules would presuppose that people actually READ the rules.

              How many times do we still see people requesting "review copies?"

              And how many times do we see people ask the EXACT same question that was asked two or three comments before and then again 10 comments before that and then half a dozen times on previous pages?
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Mike,I can think of one, at least. For everyone to read and understand the rules, and report anything that breaks them.

            Paul
            Blind optimism personified right there. lol

            Let me throw in a curve ball...

            Last year I was looking at a WSO which made same massive promises.

            Some people questioned the legitimacy of the technology / methods applied... and rightly so, if they had been doing the same. So they asked specific questions.

            Then one member simply asked if any other buyer of the WSO had made money with it.

            Interestingly there were many reviews about the product but none stating results achieved with the product.

            This poor soul was beset upon by a bunch of what I can only describe as vendor groupies whi ridiculed him with the good old you're a loser for relying on others - take action - etc.

            So it sometimes cuts both ways.

            Someone made the valid point that WSO's are not typical in the sense that the sales process is more interactive. So where do you draw the line exactly?

            If for example, I offer to answer any questions, then I am inviting these questions.

            The smarter vendors will add a list of pre written answers and then add a help desk link.

            It is a vexed issue to be honest. On the one hand, you want a laissez-faire approach with buyer beware... yet on the other hand you have an ethical issue where the customer has / should have the right to question the validity of the product.

            But the bottom line as I see it is that it's a private forum where rules of conduct are quite clear.

            So we are obligated, as members, to either follow the rules or go elsewhere. Regardless of whether we are buyers or sellers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wells
    Anytime someone knocks anothers sale thread, they should have their comments deleted and get a warning at least.

    Unless they are buyers who have a ligitimate beef with the product or service etc...

    Your absolutely right, that this should not go on, but unless you report someone right away and nip it in the bud, it could grow to the point that other people may be swayed not to buy and jump on the bandwagon.

    This is what I call, knocking somoenes action.... not cool at all, ever!
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Steve Wells View Post

      Anytime someone knocks anothers sale thread, they should have their comments deleted and get a warning at least.

      Unless they are buyers who have a ligitimate beef with the product or service etc...

      Your absolutely right, that this should not go on, but unless you report someone right away and nip it in the bud, it could grow to the point that other people may be swayed not to buy and jump on the bandwagon.

      This is what I call, knocking somoenes action.... not cool at all, ever!

      The problem is that the recent trend is to veil the comments in the form of a question.

      "Alex: What is clever word craft?"
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    An answer to the 'not reading the rules' problem can be that of when a new user tries to make their 1st post on the site they will get a popup message asking them to first read the rules. The rules will be embedded in the popup with a timer. The timer is to stop them from clicking a box that will say something along the lines of 'I have read and acknowledge these rules' before a certain time. The time can be measured by reading the rules at a moderate pace and setting the timer to match.

    I believe this will lower the amount of people who don't read the rules because most people who are forced to read something before they can accomplish a task will do so. It's only a small percent who will see the message and just sit there and wait for the timer to expire. (Users will not see the timer).
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mike Baker View Post

      An answer to the 'not reading the rules' problem can be that of when a new user tries to make their 1st post on the site they will get a popup message asking them to first read the rules. The rules will be embedded in the popup with a timer. The timer is to stop them from clicking a box that will say something along the lines of 'I have read and acknowledge these rules' before a certain time. The time can be measured by reading the rules at a moderate pace and setting the timer to match.

      I believe this will lower the amount of people who don't read the rules because most people who are forced to read something before they can accomplish a task will do so. It's only a small percent who will see the message and just sit there and wait for the timer to expire. (Users will not see the timer).
      Even better than this, after the forced wait time, make them take a test. You have to get a 100% to be able to pass. Now THAT would be something.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Sal,
        Let me throw in a curve ball...
        Caught the corner of the plate.

        You're absolutely right. Mob control of a conversation shouldn't happen in either direction. You should report that stuff, too.

        The question you mention isn't really appropriate most of the time, simply because most WSOs don't last as long as would be needed for someone to apply the techniques involved. Now, if it said "Results in X time," and it was past that, asking if anyone had seen results would make sense.

        The problem with that is, most people don't go back to a thread much after they've purchased. The ones who put them to work are more interested in building their businesses than the seller's.
        It is a vexed issue to be honest. On the one hand, you want a laissez-faire approach with buyer beware... yet on the other hand you have an ethical issue where the customer has / should have the right to question the validity of the product.
        Customers do, as long as they keep it focused on the product. The real issues with people taking over WSO threads are not usually customers, with the exception of a few loud voices. They're normally caused by people who didn't buy, and want to keep others from buying, for whatever reason. Sometimes those reasons are valid, sometimes not.

        Mike Baker,

        The idea of a delay screen with the rules involved makes sense, but I expect the kinds of people who don't read the rules now would just flip to another screen and come back later to see if the timer had expired.

        Might be an interesting way to deter some of the automated spammers, though... Interesting thought. It would probably take some programming, unless you know of an existing mod for vBulletin that does it?

        That would be cool.

        Big Mike,
        BTW, there's a similar problem in the Reviews forum - a lot of discussion by those who disagree with certain methods/concepts. Like WSO's, I'd think that reviews would be about the product, the user experience, etc., not about opinions of those who presumably don't even own the product.
        That's a little different. I don't see a problem with people debating the technique behind a product in the reviews section. It's a sensible part of the buying decision.

        "Reviews" is specifically NOT an advertising section, so the rules have to be different.

        Joe,
        Even better than this, after the forced wait time, make them take a test. You have to get a 100% to be able to pass. Now THAT would be something.
        Yeah. We'd have 30 members.


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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Mike Baker,

          The idea of a delay screen with the rules involved makes sense, but I expect the kinds of people who don't read the rules now would just flip to another screen and come back later to see if the timer had expired.

          Might be an interesting way to deter some of the automated spammers, though... Interesting thought. It would probably take some programming, unless you know of an existing mod for vBulletin that does it?

          That would be cool.
          I don't know of any mods of the top of my head that will accomplish this, but I have seen them in the past and surely they have been updated since then. I will do some digging around to see what I can find.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Mike,
            I have seen them in the past and surely they have been updated since then. I will do some digging around to see what I can find.
            Thanks. I appreciate it.

            I don't know that Allen would necessarily think it's the right way to go, but it could be a useful option for a lot of us. And if it cut down on the drive-by spammers, that could be very cool.


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        • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
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          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          Joe,Yeah. We'd have 30 members.


          Paul


          I get your point though. If only we lived in a perfect world...*sigh*
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    • Profile picture of the author linkwhizz
      Originally Posted by Mike Baker View Post

      An answer to the 'not reading the rules' problem can be that of when a new user tries to make their 1st post on the site they will get a popup message asking them to first read the rules. The rules will be embedded in the popup with a timer. The timer is to stop them from clicking a box that will say something along the lines of 'I have read and acknowledge these rules' before a certain time. The time can be measured by reading the rules at a moderate pace and setting the timer to match.

      I believe this will lower the amount of people who don't read the rules because most people who are forced to read something before they can accomplish a task will do so. It's only a small percent who will see the message and just sit there and wait for the timer to expire. (Users will not see the timer).
      Never thought I would say this Mike, but thats a good idea you have there ...Something we agree on finally!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    I have found a mod that will force a user to read a certain thread (in this case the rules thread) before they can post anywhere on the site. The problem is it only works on version 4 and above of vBulletin. There is none for the current version WF is running right now. So it would mean going without this mod and trying something else, or updating the site to the latest version of VB. (Personally I don't know why it hasn't been updated already).
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Upon reflection...

    Sabotage of a WSO by a competitor is unacceptable. Seller should report ti immediately and admin / mods should take appropriate action be it deleting the post (minimum) and / or deleting the member is required.

    Sellers who make massive claims should be able to back them up with proof.. social or otherwise.

    These sellers should also -if they stand by their product - answer appropriate questions, tell others to butt out of the discussion, and not be aggressive with the buyer for asking.. unless the question is asked by the type listed above. In which case, just report the dipsticks and be the better person.

    Buyers who actually buy should be entitled to leave feedback... good or bad.

    I understand that these rules are probably in place... but my views on the matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I guess my thinking is that if you don't want to have an open discussion about your product then selling it on a forum thread is probably not the best idea.

    if you want to deal with positive and negative questions/comments/feedback in private, then you need a normal sales page and a help desk.

    The only real reason selling on a forum thread works better for some is because of the idea of social proof, a sense of community, and the product owners extensive forum profile.

    However, those benefits can also turn out to be negatives. So in my opinion when you take the calculated risk of launching a product on a forum thread then you are essentially opening yourself up for the social proof and community effects to work either for you or against you.

    The risk is that you (the product owner) don't get to decide which way the effects go (good or bad), the community does that for you.

    Certainly some are out to just sabotage. But some of us very experienced marketers could essentially "sabotage" many of the offers in the WSO section by providing reasonable and factual arguments that oppose the almost certainly over-hype sales letter.

    If we did that, would we wrong for helping customers to make more educated buying decisions? Or is it our responsibility to sit on the side lines and let less experienced people make buying decisions after hearing only one side of the story (from the sales letter).

    BTW... I don't post in the WSO section (maybe 5 posts in my WF career). I choose to avoid it for a number of reasons, so I am not one of the ones sabotaging anyone's thread. But I do think it's upsetting that sellers think the social affects of this community should only be allowed to be positive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      I guess my thinking is that if you don't want to have an open discussion about your product then selling it on a forum thread is probably not the best idea.

      if you want to deal with positive and negative questions/comments/feedback in private, then you need a normal sales page and a help desk.
      David, I post a LOT of WSO's. And I can tell you from personal experience, an overwhelming majority of negative feedback has nothing to do with the product/information inside.

      Most of it is:

      - Bashing of product from those who never purchased. (Hyperbole like "The sales page is making too many promises - the product must be garbage")
      - Bashing of the product funnel. (Not liking upsells/downsells) Again, nothing to do with the product.
      - Claiming that everything taught inside can be found "for free". (again, from people who never purchase - "I've not bought but I can tell you that you can learn everything about this topic for free here")
      - Purposeful sabotage from the competition. (Luckily I've not been subject to this - but I've seen several WSO's that have)
      - Bashing not on the information, but format of presentation. (I hate videos. Had this been a pdf I would've liked it. But it's crap that it's video - I want my money back...etc.etc.)
      - General hate/disdain for the Warrior Forum/WSO Section. Hyperbole like "There is nothing but garbage in the WSO section" "These WSO sellers are just looking to milk newbies/members dry" "This kind of crap never would've flown in the 'old days'"

      (Yes, some of those are almost direct quotes)

      The good criticism and negative feedback is always helpful. The people talk about the product, the positives and negatives.

      In fact, a majority of the honest feedback comes in the form of...
      "I bought this, it's a good product but I already know everything in it. It would be a good product for newbies though" - or something of that nature.

      Or something like "I wish this would've included XYZ".

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author cashcow
        Originally Posted by Rob Howard View Post

        David, I post a LOT of WSO's. And I can tell you from personal experience, an overwhelming majority of negative feedback has nothing to do with the product/information inside.

        Most of it is:

        - Bashing of product from those who never purchased. (Hyperbole like "The sales page is making too many promises - the product must be garbage")
        - Bashing of the product funnel. (Not liking upsells/downsells) Again, nothing to do with the product.
        - Claiming that everything taught inside can be found "for free". (again, from people who never purchase - "I've not bought but I can tell you that you can learn everything about this topic for free here")
        - Purposeful sabotage from the competition. (Luckily I've not been subject to this - but I've seen several WSO's that have)
        - Bashing not on the information, but format of presentation. (I hate videos. Had this been a pdf I would've liked it. But it's crap that it's video - I want my money back...etc.etc.)
        - General hate/disdain for the Warrior Forum/WSO Section. Hyperbole like "There is nothing but garbage in the WSO section" "These WSO sellers are just looking to milk newbies/members dry" "This kind of crap never would've flown in the 'old days'"
        From a buyers point of view, I don't find this stuff to be helpful either. Nor do I really want to wade through it. I mostly ignore stuff like that as its usually easy to tell who is just posting because they are bitter and angry. But I've been around the block a few times and I could see how it might affect a newer persons perception of the product.

        What I do find helpful (sometimes) is when a person asks a question, the seller answers, then a debate starts about the answer. I think sometimes this can be helpful but not if the debaters are only doing it to cast doubt on the product - only if they have a genuine concern about whatever it is they are debating.

        An example might be a WSO on some kind of back linking technique or software where a person knowledgable in SEO might be questioning it in the thread. Of course the seller is going to come back and say it works but what if it really doesn't and this other person knows that? Shouldn't the other potential buyers be made aware?

        While there are many WSO sellers who provide good and valuable products, there are also some who are just trying to make a quick buck on stuff that probably doesn't even work and for those products, maybe it is good to have the checks and balances of comments in place.

        Lee
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Lee,
          An example might be a WSO on some kind of back linking technique or software where a person knowledgable in SEO might be questioning it in the thread. Of course the seller is going to come back and say it works but what if it really doesn't and this other person knows that? Shouldn't the other potential buyers be made aware?
          That sort of argument has no place in a WSO thread.

          I know. That doesn't sound "right." The problem is, anyone can claim anything is ineffective, and those claims could just as easily be wrong, or fabricated.

          Example of a simple misconception: I see people saying all the time that long opt-in pages don't work, and that no-one will bother with them. But I see them working, very effectively, every single day. Now, they might not work for the person making the claim, but they can and do work if done right or in different niches. And that's the problem. The fact that something doesn't work for Person X doesn't necessarily mean it won't work for Person Z.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author cashcow
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Lee,That sort of argument has no place in a WSO thread.

            I know. That doesn't sound "right." The problem is, anyone can claim anything is ineffective, and those claims could just as easily be wrong, or fabricated.
            Yes, I see what you are saying. I was thinking more from the idea of stuff that really doesn't work ... for anyone. Or maybe, for another example, when the WSO tells people to do things that are against a sites TOS or something like that.

            I do see how that could be a gray area though now that you mention it (not the TOS stuff but having certain methods working).

            I was just winging that off the top of my head btw - I dont know of a particular WSO as an example of that.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Lee,That sort of argument has no place in a WSO thread.

            I know. That doesn't sound "right." The problem is, anyone can claim anything is ineffective, and those claims could just as easily be wrong, or fabricated.

            Example of a simple misconception: I see people saying all the time that long opt-in pages don't work, and that no-one will bother with them. But I see them working, very effectively, every single day. Now, they might not work for the person making the claim, but they can and do work if done right or in different niches. And that's the problem. The fact that something doesn't work for Person X doesn't necessarily mean it won't work for Person Z.


            Paul
            It's common sense to create a pdf and videos purely because some prefer to read... like me. Can't stand videos.

            However, we have already established that common sense seldom enters the equation.

            So to balance the discussion...

            If sellers took a little bit more time to make sure they have all bases covered, then they would probably get less flak IMO.

            Alternatively...

            Include a This is what it is and a This is what it isn't int he sales copy.

            I don't want to pidgeon hole WSO's as all being good or evil.

            But sometimes, vendors can create a rod for their back by being too vagua.

            Often, buyers ask dumb questions... which are already answered in the sales copy or following posts.

            As a seller, all I can do is cover all options in both sales copy and product content.

            Sal
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            • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
              Banned
              Originally Posted by sal64 View Post


              If sellers took a little bit more time to make sure they have all bases covered, then they would probably get less flak IMO.

              Include a This is what it is and a This is what it isn't int he sales copy.



              As a seller, all I can do is cover all options in both sales copy and product content.
              Oh man, these three statements cover it perfectly IMO. I still see product descriptions that go something like this:

              Well, I'll tell you what this product isn't:
              PPC
              Affiliate Marketing
              CPA
              Ewhoring
              etc. etc. etc.
              You know what else your product probably isn't? A cure for back pain, a cheese pizza, or a frickin shamwow. I think it is the most unhelpful and useless thing to include in a sales letter. I would love nothing more than to just see one product say "All right. This is what this is about. This is what it will teach you to do. Plain. And. Simple"

              It's almost never included in sales copy though, because it doesn't hit the same emotional buttons that naming the above "failed methods" do (at least that is how I see the situation).
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              • Profile picture of the author sal64
                Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

                Oh man, these three statements cover it perfectly IMO. I still see product descriptions that go something like this:



                You know what else your product probably isn't? A cure for back pain, a cheese pizza, or a frickin shamwow. I think it is the most unhelpful and useless thing to include in a sales letter. I would love nothing more than to just see one product say "All right. This is what this is about. This is what it will teach you to do. Plain. And. Simple"

                It's almost never included in sales copy though, because it doesn't hit the same emotional buttons that naming the above "failed methods" do (at least that is how I see the situation).
                I can see the logic in that approach because (a) it implies that the product is fresh or unique and (b) given that people struggle with certain methods, it probably drops a few barriers in the buyer's mind.

                But probably the former in most cases where the seller seeks to differentiate him or herself from the competition.

                What I refer to is clearly stating what they get and what they don't get. I have even now ventured to mention if they can expect an upsell or not and stress that it's optional and not needed for the main wso. Ironically the upsell converted at over 70%... but that's probably more due to it being a great product.

                EDIT: I'll also hazard to assume that the vast majority of sellers are clueless when it comes to writing copy, so they either follow what someone else claims to be the magic formula, or they take snippets from various letters that make sense to them and assume that it will have the same effect on others. Why, because I did the same early on.

                @ cueball: once again a valid observation Thomas. The buyer mentality does prevail which is concerning given that we are - or should be - in the selling business. Very telling if you ask me.
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              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                Banned
                [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author ShayB
                  Paul -

                  What if you see a WSO that you know violates the TOS of whatever platform it's supposed to target? (As an example - like Twitter WSOs that will get your account banned if you use it?)

                  Ask questions in the thread or quietly report it? (Or both?)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
                    I have seen incidents too where people were questioning in WSO threads why the price changed in a freaking dimesale. Someone chimes in "how come it's this price now?" "I don't think it's fair that it's this price now when 10 minutes ago it was this price" and someone else comments "yeah, I think it's a scam"...

                    This is yet another way to cast doubt on a seller and I believe should also be discouraged.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                  Over the last couple of years, WSO's I've purchased that were vague like that for one reason - to mask the fact that the WSO was about something the average buyer was already familiar with.

                  They do it because they don't have a product that contains any original thinking, so instead they distract from the fact it's nothing more than a set of instructions for using a web service.
                  ^^^^^^^^
                  This exactly. I only bought one WSO that used blind copy and it was just trash. I've never bought from blind copy again. I want to know exactly what it is that I'm buying ... not what it's not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mike,

      Would you PM me the name of that mod, please? Or post it here for others who may also use the 3.x versions of vBulletin?

      Sal,

      Your views on the matter happen to correspond nicely with the existing rules.

      David,
      Certainly some are out to just sabotage. But some of us very experienced marketers could essentially "sabotage" many of the offers in the WSO section by providing reasonable and factual arguments that oppose the almost certainly over-hype sales letter.
      Happens fairly often. And that's considered an acceptable review. More than that, we encourage it. As long as you've bought the product.

      If you know that something isn't true based on evidence outside the buying process, report it to the mods, along with your evidence.
      I do think it's upsetting that sellers think the social affects of this community should only be allowed to be positive.
      Only the foolish sellers think that.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Rob,
        Bashing not on the information, but format of presentation. (I hate videos. Had this been a pdf I would've liked it. But it's crap that it's video - I want my money back...etc.etc.)
        If the sales page doesn't make it very clear that it's a video-only product, that is a perfectly valid review comment. It significantly affects the utility of the product for many people.


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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Rob,If the sales page doesn't make it very clear that it's a video-only product, that is a perfectly valid review comment. It significantly affects the utility of the product for many people.


          Paul
          Most of my sales pages state what type of info it was.

          But yes, if it doesn't state it, I agree, a valid review.

          There is a WSO (which I believe you know which one I'm talking about) who bashed on this, but a pdf WAS included. The reviewer neglected to point it out.

          Then, when the seller pointed out that there was a PDF, that topic was dropped and another question was raised that threw the seller's reputation in doubt. Looking at the two posts together, it really looked like the reviewer had it "in" for the seller.

          Well, I guess I should say he asked some "pointed" questions aiming to trap the WSO seller in a bind unless provided specific and verifiable proof.

          Rob
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Rob,
            Then, when the seller pointed out that there was a PDF, that topic was dropped and another question was raised that threw the seller's reputation in doubt. Looking at the two posts together, it really looked like the reviewer had it "in" for the seller.
            "Looked like it" being the key phrase.

            He didn't, but that was, in my opinion, a poorly handled situation on both sides. The buyer for not having checked the product for the PDF, and the seller for overreacting and getting defensive. He made it sound like the buyer had accused him of something wrong, and that is what prompted the second buyer comment.

            A more useful seller reply would have been something like, "Yep. We included a PDF with all the details for those who don't want to start out by watching the video. Was that not in your download, or does it not open for some reason? If it was missing or the file was corrupted, let me know and I'll send it to you."

            Bam. Done.


            Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Mike,

        Would you PM me the name of that mod, please? Or post it here for others who may also use the 3.x versions of vBulletin?
        It's called "Force user to read thread". It's only available for version 3.6.x, 3.7.x, and 4.x.x. For some reason it was not never updated to work with 3.8.x versions.

        I did see someone suggest to another vB user to try the version 4 mod on a 3.8.x version.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Even though this is a marketing forum where we discuss selling, you notice the overwhelming buyer mentality.

          Personally, I think the wso section does pretty well compared to the type of market they are dealing with.

          This market is known to be a terrible, cheating, lying, over hyped market and this forum does it's best to weed that out.

          I do admit I had a laugh at the copywriting critique. The more I do business online the more I shake my head in wonder at some of the things people do.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Keith
    I think it is kinda funny that almost every WSO holds post #2 for "FAQ", but doesn't actually want / welcome legitimate tough questions.

    I have read the WSO thread that likely inspired this thread.

    When challenged on the questions of whether the product owner had actually used the "tactics" being sold, the response was given that the owner uses pen names and for various legal reasons couldn't provide proof of using the techniques.

    Now, I know the product owner and I know this is almost certainly true. However, a poor job of salemanship was done. The OP of that thread seemed under prepared for tough (yet legit) questions.

    All that had to be done was essentially say... I know a guy using these techniques... here is his amazon account info. Then no pen names would have had to be revealed to be connected with the OP and better proof would have been given.

    I have used pen names in my marketing career, its easy to use them as examples while talking about them in the third person without ever actually connecting them with you.

    on a side note: ever wonder why sales pages don't have comment features? It is to prevent exactly this sort of stuff from happening. When you are selling something the more control of the situation you give up, the more risky it is.

    That is what all the video explosion is really about...more control. Prospects can't scan the video, they have to watch the whole thing, and that makes it much easier for the seller to control the emotions of the prospect.

    If you want to only let prospects see "positive FAQ's" and only positive reviews, then use a normal sales page. That way you get full control over every piece of html on that page.

    People on a forum will never behave the way YOU want them to. I am sure Paul can back me up on that one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Danielle,
      Any publisher that accepts money for advertising, must maintain a journalistic integrity. If it wants to maintain it's own reputation. I've never seen a newspaper or a magazine refuse to present a negative review of a product in a letter to the editor, simply because the product is one of their advertiser's products.
      This is not a newspaper. This is not a journalistic establishment. And I am fairly certain that letters to the editor of most papers that said things like, "That product on page 14 of your Thursday edition sucked, and the seller should be hung," or "I don't like the way the ad for Grandpa Chow on page 39 was worded" would print them.

      Most newspapers don't have review options at all, come to think of it. But wait... we do. If you've bought the product, you can comment on it. And what we think of those comments doesn't matter, as long as they are within the rules.

      1. From a customer.
      2. Stick to the product.
      3. Civil.
      4. Fact-based.

      Not a particularly onerous standard, I think.
      I left very constructive feedback to that seller regarding the claims made in the copy, and that post was deleted. So it does seem that discussion is not permitted and feedback is not welcome unless it's a glowing testimonial, which removes any trust I ever had in the fact that this is a forum, where I can get others' feedback before making a buying decision, or where I can trust to get decent feedback on my own products.
      So, because you weren't allowed to post something publicly that should have been said privately, you're going to ignore all the reviews from paying customers (positive and negative) and decide you don't trust us?

      Your choice. Nothing more or less than that.

      If you believe there is something misleading in the copy, that's what the Report Post icon is for. You'd be surprised how effective that can be, if the report is accompanied by some sort of credible evidence.
      I've had a WSO trashed, by someone who outright lied. It was most definitely turned into a 'discussion' on my PAID advertising. I reported it. But the post was allowed to stand. Like David, I decided that my own site/sales page was a better place to sell, where I don't have to put up with that good ole' boy stuff.
      Was this something that could be demonstrated to have been a lie? If so, I can't imagine it being allowed to stand. That said, mistakes happen. No-one has ever claimed we're immune to them.

      Turning that into a "good old boy" network is a bit of a stretch.


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Russ,
        The problem for me is that even though I bought the WSO, I can't really go back and leave the review that states the software "really" doesn't do all that you claim and you've left out very important factors that are critical to the success of the person implementing your system.
        Sure you can. The problem you face is that you would give the appearance of trying to torpedo a competitor. I doubt you'd have that motivation in mind, but the perception would not be unreasonable for people unfamiliar with your posting habits.

        I run into the same thing occasionally. I just figure it's better to let folks without a competing horse in the race do the talking. Sucks, but it's part of keeping up with the biz.
        Also, how do we "really" know the person posting a review in fact actually bought the product. There is no way of knowing in many cases because the forum ID's don't match the purchasers actual name.
        We don't know with any degree of certainty. Only the buyer and seller do in most cases.

        If it's through one of the affiliate programs (W+, Digiresults or JV Zoo) we can ask for the buyer's info and, with their permission, ask the operator of the relevant program if the person bought the product. That's uncommon, to say the least, but it's an option in cases where the buyer says they paid and the seller denies it.

        I have shut down WSOs when sellers swore someone hadn't bought in order to get a negative comment removed and it was proven they did.


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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    I tend to buy WSO's in my niche to keep up with what my peers are doing. I recently bought a WSO and it was complete garbage! The claims being made in the sales copy were over the top. The list goes on and on.

    The problem for me is that even though I bought the WSO, I can't really go back and leave the review that states the software "really" doesn't do all that you claim and you've left out very important factors that are critical to the success of the person implementing your system. So even if my review is accurate and isn't a personal attack on the vendor I still appear to be giving a skewed review because I'm a competitor in the same niche.

    Because of this I have to really question if these vendors are even successful in my niche to begin with!

    What am I to do Paul? How do we handle this situation?

    Also, how do we "really" know the person posting a review in fact actually bought the product. There is no way of knowing in many cases because the forum ID's don't match the purchasers actual name.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      I do think it's upsetting that sellers think the social affects of this community should only be allowed to be positive.

      I am not opposed to negative comments. But some of these folks follow threads of a certain type and trash several and sometimes all of them.

      I have been told by a number of reputable people that certain people doing this have announced in other places that they are intent in stopping all WSO's in specific niches, for whatever reason.

      If I knew where those statements were documented online for the public to see, I would have introduced those comments to the public discourse.


      Originally Posted by David Keith View Post

      I think it is kinda funny that almost every WSO holds post #2 for "FAQ", but doesn't actually want / welcome legitimate tough questions.

      I have read the WSO thread that likely inspired this thread.

      I know the product owner and I know this is almost certainly true. However, a poor job of salemanship was done. The OP of that thread seemed under prepared for tough (yet legit) questions.

      I suspect that you are right about the thread.

      I cannot speak for other WSO sellers, but I can speak for myself.

      I know that when I have dealt with the same kinds of situations in the past, as a seller, I have occasionally handled questions badly. Live and learn.

      When someone posts negative comments in my threads, I seldom report the posts, unless it is clearly a case of "did not buy and is only making blind comments."

      I do try to answer the questions posed about my products and reviews given about my products. I generally always take less than stellar product reviews in stride, and I do often fill in the post #2 FAQ.

      I hope to always put my best foot forward, but I have to admit, sometimes I trip and fall.


      Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

      I left very constructive feedback to that seller regarding the claims made in the copy, and that post was deleted. So it does seem that discussion is not permitted and feedback is not welcome unless it's a glowing testimonial, which removes any trust I ever had in the fact that this is a forum, where I can get others' feedback before making a buying decision, or where I can trust to get decent feedback on my own products.

      And to add insult to injury, the seller kept one part of my copy, a question about the product, and replied to it, without so much as thanking me for the very helpful and constructive criticism I left for him that got deleted. Do you think he'll get my business now?

      I did see that post you are speaking about.

      You asked one question, then you proceeded to talk about your sales copy writing experience (which I compared to personal branding) and also give a long-winded "critique" (your word choice, not mine) of the sales copy.

      The time to teach the seller about copy writing is not in a sales thread.

      Your question was addressed and answered, and the long-winded sales critique was deleted.

      I thought it fair.


      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      The problem for me is that even though I bought the WSO, I can't really go back and leave the review that states the software "really" doesn't do all that you claim and you've left out very important factors that are critical to the success of the person implementing your system. So even if my review is accurate and isn't a personal attack on the vendor I still appear to be giving a skewed review because I'm a competitor in the same niche.

      Because of this I have to really question if these vendors are even successful in my niche to begin with!

      What am I to do Paul? How do we handle this situation?

      Rus: This is a tough one.

      We must always be mindful of perceptions, and those perceptions that others have will always influence the actions we take.

      This is why I avoid 90% of the article marketing threads here in the forum. I was a service provider in that niche for more than a decade, as a writer, ghost writer and article syndication professional.

      While that does make me an expert in that niche, for most of the questions that are posed in the threads here in the forum, it may be perceived by some that my comments are influenced more by my financial interests, than by my experience as someone who actually used the services that I sold.

      So long as someone could perceive your comments and mine as being motivated by personal financial gain, then we must be careful of how, what and when we say those things that we feel to be important for others to know and understand.

      It is not that you cannot say that the software sucked and the product did not live up to its promise.

      It is more a matter of where you must find a way to say what you want to say, in a way that does not make it look like you are trashing a competitor, not for the vendors sake, but for your sake and your continuing credibility in your niche.

      .
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      The problem for me is that even though I bought the WSO, I can't really go back and leave the review that states the software "really" doesn't do all that you claim and you've left out very important factors that are critical to the success of the person implementing your system. So even if my review is accurate and isn't a personal attack on the vendor I still appear to be giving a skewed review because I'm a competitor in the same niche.
      Tricky but...

      Given that you have purchased the product then you have every right to comment. Huge difference.

      In this instance, I'd say the onus would now be on the seller to counter those comments. Which is fair enough because you have purchased the product and in your opinion...

      I guess it's how you phrase the words and the tone you set with your feedback.

      Ideally if you leave feedback, it would good if you (rhetorical) listed positives as well as negatives, hence being seen to be balanced in your opinion. Rather than just say it's cr@p because it is missing xyz.

      Hope this makes sense.

      Sal
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    It seems like most people buy it, may try it out and then move on to the next shiny object when that one doesn't work out, and I imagine that some sellers would blame the buyer for it not working out.
    To my astonishment I've had people buy my software product and let it sit on the hard drive for months before doing anything with it! By months I don't mean 1 or 2 either! I just recently had some one submit a ticket saying the software doesn't work but when I look at the version number its from over a year ago! They plainly admitted not touching it for almost a year!

    I think tons of buyers do try a product but maybe they don't give it time to work and then move on to the next product and as I mentioned some just let them collect dust.

    Also I think many people never return to say anything especially if a product does work. I know I wouldn't say a darn thing because I don't want 3000 other people now doing the exact same thing.

    I remember a WSO about using a back linking service to rank videos. At about 1 month after the release that back linking service was no longer effective because of the success of the WSO had so many people using it. So as a buyer I don't want to come back and say jack that it works.
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Suzanne,
      Agreed. Most people aren't going to come back months later to say a product worked (or didn't) for them.

      Paul,
      Yes, you are correct. It is not a journalistic publication. The only common factor is that the forum is a medium which accepts payment for advertising to it's readership. Google isn't a newspaper either, but they make money from advertising and because of that, have to remain (or at least claim to remain) unbiased in favor of their advertisers.

      I'm not referring to 'specifics' as you used at all. My newspaper has an "Action" column, where people write in regarding the business practices of businesses they've had experience with. The columnist either explains the contractual legalese that the buyer didn't understand, or contacts the business and makes attempts at resolution. Most newspapers have something similar.

      Mind you, I am not suggesting that WaFo do this. The 'nature' of a 'forum' should negate the need, if open dialogue is permissible among the members
      . And that's not to say that I think there should be reviews and comments on a PAID advertising message. But if you're going to have it for the 'good social proof' factor, then you have to take the good with the bad or the trust you're putting in that forum discussion nature is non-existent.

      You say, "if you bought the product, you can comment on it." I've never been told by any salesman that I don't have the right to ask a pre-sell question until after I've bought though... effectively rendering it a post-sell question.

      "Use the refund feature", by the way, is bad advice. People get their PayPal account shut down for asking for too many refunds too. Besides all the metaphorically speaking 'cigar smoke filled back rooms' on Skype where you'll be branded a 'serial refunder.'

      If any feedback that isn't a 'glowing testimonial' should be kept 'private,' then others may miss the fact that this copy is making a claim it won't fulfill. Again, completely takes away from the 'trust' I have that the 'nature' of a forum ensures that I will get real reviews and not just the great testimonials a seller can cherry pick from to show on a normal sales page.

      I wouldn't have had any cause to believe the copy was misleading until the seller themselves opened themselves up to saying so by admitting that it "only does (something else)".

      And yes, I did prove it was an outright lie, but that's besides the point now. If the rule is that you can't trash another WSO and that the PAID sections are not discussion forums, then the rule was already broken whether the offending party is proved to have been lying or not.

      Dani
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Danielle,
        You say, "if you bought the product, you can comment on it." I've never been told by any salesman that I don't have the right to ask a pre-sell question until after I've bought though... effectively rendering it a post-sell question.
        We do not forbid pre-sales questions. You can see them all over the WSO section.

        There is a difference between questions and copy critiques. Just as there is a difference between telling the salesman you think their store's decor sucks and demanding to use the loudspeaker system to tell the whole clientele.

        We're somewhere in the middle. The goal is balance, and a copy critique is not even close to the middle of that spectrum.
        If any feedback that isn't a 'glowing testimonial' should be kept 'private,'
        There's that ridiculous nonsense again. You're smarter than that, Danielle.

        The evidence is right there, for all the world to see.

        Go through the WSO section a bit. You will find negative (non-glowing) comments in almost every thread. Sometimes they take over the threads. If they stick to the rules I mentioned above, they stay posted. If they don't stick to those simple rules and they get reported, we remove them.

        Your objection seems to be that we require they be limited to the product. Read the rules. This is not a new thing.
        And yes, I did prove it was an outright lie
        Ask the WSO sellers I've dealt with over such things if they feel we're "tolerant" of lies. I suspect you'd get an eye-opening response.

        I shut down one WSO yesterday because a positive comment came from another account at the same IP. The seller swears it's someone he works with. I don't care. The offer isn't being re-opened. (I don't believe him for a moment, but that's irrelevant. His co-worker didn't just decide on his own to post an "I'll check this out" comment and then a review from across the hall.)

        Sellers hate what we leave up as much as non-sellers hate what gets deleted. It's all pretty clear, though. What isn't in the rules is pure common sense.

        PM me your proof.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    Paul you said,
    I run into the same thing occasionally. I just figure it's better to let folks without a competing horse in the race do the talking. Sucks, but it's part of keeping up with the biz.
    The problem with that is if they aren't in the same space how can they speak authoritatively on the subject matter to begin with?

    Most assuredly I'd appear to be bombing the WSO thread by posting my personal opinion/review of the product. You surely know enough about me to realize my intention wouldn't be to ruin a vendors business by posting a review as such but perception is often peoples reality.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Russ,
      The problem with that is if they aren't in the same space how can they speak authoritatively on the subject matter to begin with?
      They can't, in most instances. But... how do you prove that?

      That's my biggest dislike of all things Internet: Anyone can make any claim, and some group will believe it. That is the nature of the beast. It sucks, but the benefits outweigh it, and there is really no way to solve that problem.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Dani, nowhere did the seller admit that it was a "lie". You don't have any proof of it. Just your opinion on the situation and what your interpretations on what one of the sellers said.

    Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
    TPW you said,

    It is more a matter of where you must find a way to say what you want to say, in a way that does not make it look like you are trashing a competitor, not for the vendors sake, but for your sake and your continuing credibility in your niche.
    Well the problem is that this particular product was so full of utter tripe that there is really no way to leave a proper review without making myself look like a total A$$ hat! = (
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    • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rus Sells View Post

      Well the problem is that this particular product was so full of utter tripe that there is really no way to leave a proper review without making myself look like a total A$$ hat! = (
      I can see the frustration when this kind of thing comes up. From time to time though, maybe you just have to force a civil review with as many facts as you can, and then walk away from the situation hoping that potential buyers see enough to make an informed decision.

      It would leave a dirty feeling, I'm sure. Can't save everyone every time though.

      I don't review any WSO's though, so the viability/possibility of taking that route is up in the air. I just want to make it clear I'm speaking purely in a theoretical sense.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

      There is an incredulous amount BS floating around...in fact..I've only ever bought 2 WSO's in my entire 2 years on this forum.

      ......

      That's what products should be like...not the regurgitated complete horse sh*** that gets pumped out for $7 a pop.

      Forgive me for asking, but if you have only ever bought 2 WSO's, and one of those was absolutely awesome, how do you know that WSO's are typically, "regurgitated complete horse sh*** that gets pumped out for $7 a pop"??
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

        ok......okaaaaaayyyyy....

        Maybe because of all the crappy comments immediately below the products/offers...maybe?....


        (which is why you started this thread)....cough, cough.


        LOL

        I buy a lot of WSO's, and the good ones are in the range of about 75% of those that I buy.

        And, I actually started the thread to ask where we should draw the line, when posters are creating "pre-sell questions" in such a way as to create doubt about and cast aspersions on the seller or his product.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
          You know there is a certain newer user I've noticed of a specific foreign (non US) persuasion that appears to be doing just this. hmmm

          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL

          I buy a lot of WSO's, and the good ones are in the range of about 75% of those that I buy.

          And, I actually started the thread to ask where we should draw the line, when posters are creating "pre-sell questions" in such a way as to cast doubt on the seller or his product.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

        ok......okaaaaaayyyyy....

        Maybe because of all the crappy comments immediately below the products/offers...maybe?....

        (which is why you started this thread)....cough, cough.
        Well you're making it sound as if the majority of full of crap comments and that's not what I've seen at all. There's tons of great WSOs with pages and pages of great reviews and beyond the first page, all the reviews start to become from ordinary buyers.

        One thing about WSOs with tons of crap comments, you wouldn't really be tempted to waste your money on it, would you?

        You've bought two and I've bought maybe 100 and the majority of what I've bought has been worth far more than the (usually) tiny price I paid for them. Of course, a lot is going to depend on what types of offers you are looking for (wild income claims vs solid information) and who you buy it from.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

        There is an incredulous amount BS floating around...in fact..I've only ever bought 2 WSO's in my entire 2 years on this forum.

        1 of them was from Paul Myers for about eeeerrrrr $20 or something stupid like that.

        What I bought made a huge difference to me.

        It was worth a butt load more than I paid for it.

        Had about 10 reports in it with about 100 pages per report...I struggle to read at the best of times, I'm more visual and mentally creative..I have a severe lack of concentration..but I read every single page of that...I knew I had to read the whole thing in case I missed something on the next page...literally

        That's what products should be like...not the regurgitated complete horse sh*** that gets pumped out for $7 a pop.
        Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey View Post

        ok......okaaaaaayyyyy....

        Maybe because of all the crappy comments immediately below the products/offers...maybe?....


        (which is why you started this thread)....cough, cough.
        That's the type of hyperbole I'm referring too.

        I just hit the very first WSO currently #1 in that forum. The first 10 or so comments was questions. After that, a few reviews came in.

        All positive.

        So based on my quick test of the WSO section, I must conclude that all WSO's are great. Right?

        Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I just tested your theory Rob. The very first WSO I just saw had zero comments. So my analysis is that no one uses the WSO section.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by Joe Robinson View Post

      I just tested your theory Rob. The very first WSO I just saw had zero comments. So my analysis is that no one uses the WSO section.
      Damn Joe.

      So let's see...

      One person see's a thread with negative comments.

      One person see's a thread with positive comments.

      One person see's a thread with no comments.

      Hm...I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the WSO forum is like other market places? With good, bad, and ok products?

      That doesn't seem very emotionally charged... I mean logical conclusion.

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          The truth is...there is no spoon
          If there is no spoon, fork it.
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          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I see the train of thought you were trying to create, and then promptly ignored it. Only my opinion could be right because I thought of it and I'm the best ever. I don't have time to look at rules, facts, or common sense. I have millions to make!
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    1- it's a private forum. rules are set. play by the rules or don't play. as my dad used to say - either p1ss or get off the pot.

    2- unfounded assumptions and generalizations about WSO's are just dumb and add nothing of value to the discussion.

    3- whilst tempting (i have to admit), if you've no intention of buying or any interest in a product, why jump in with feedback. MYOB! The seller has the right to present and advertise his or her product as they see fit. In the end, the market will vote with their credit cards.

    4- who the hell are you to give feedback on some one's copy or whatever ina a public forum... especially if you haven't purchased the product? How do you know if it's true or not?

    5- it's a private forum. them's the rules etc etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    You know if a WSO is really "not as advertised", you don't even really need to make a big hoopla about it. You can just report it and tell the mod why it's "crooked" and it will most likely just get closed if your claim is valid.

    Some people like to grandstand, but it really isn't necessary if you've got the facts to substantiate your claim.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      You know if a WSO is really "not as advertised", you don't even really need to make a big hoopla about it. You can just report it and tell the mod why it's "crooked" and it will most likely just get closed if your claim is valid.

      Some people like to grandstand, but it really isn't necessary if you've got the facts to substantiate your claim.
      That's the sensible mature way to go about it.

      sadly, the world is full of victims and people with an axe to grind.

      It's the old - you ain't gonna pull one over me! attitude.

      If you go into business, then expect bad things to happen and prepare to deal with them accordingly.

      It amuses me how the consumer will pay $1000 for a pair of brand sunglasses made in China for $2.50... or in most our cases, an iPad for $400 that costs $50 to manufacture... yet get their knickers ina knot iover a $7 product. lol...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Joseph
    Hi Bill,

    This is a pretty unfortunate - and growing issue, that many of us continue to see. Even as BIG Mike mentioned, sometimes vendor's are getting hassled and scrutinized for things that may not even be true, simply because of another person's particular opinion or even agenda.

    Studies show that we humans are habitual creatures - in many sanctioned test's subjects have shown to almost ALWAYS go 'with the crowd' to the tune of about 80/20.

    80% being the group of followers.

    It's a basic psychology principal really. Most of us feel more comfortable to follow the crowd and just go unnoticed. This can work hugely in our favor, or sometimes against us.

    It all depends on us being able to ethically relate with the higher 80% majority.

    Happy Easter!
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    Jon

    "Success comes when people act together; failure tends to happen alone." -- Deepak Chopra

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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Instead of being overly concerned about how ones "self" looks to others by giving a not so positive review... Shouldnt your concern for others getting ripped off be the reason you would post the revuiew in the first place and not the motivating factor that seems to transcend the concerns here, which is "how does this make me look?"

    Speaking with true authority and integrity can withstand any minor turbulance your reputation may have to endure here and there.

    Being afraid of losing a handful of customers over an honest comment indicates that you arent considering how the forum white washes itself practically monthly and has almost entirely brand new cells... If a handful are offended by your views dont worry; 3 out of 5 wont be here in 90 days, one of your enemies will eventually find someone else to hate on, and the other will probably become your best friend later in life.

    If Im not ticking someone off here and there or making someone say "I would never buy from that pompous jerk", then Im not really being authentic because half the crap I hear in offline is based on theory and rehashed "cover" statements that arent even close to how things really work.

    I have actually carved my own niche by shooting from the hip and saying what I think...and allowing people to not like it.

    Why?

    Because you cant please everyone all the time, and you cant be true to yourself or anyone else by trying to.

    And most of what Im saying is rehash that I learned from Paul Myers Books, buts its darn valuable stuff to internalize and make a part of your disposition about things around here.

    Speaking your mind and finding your original voice... If you try to please everyone you will never fully connect to the group of people who are specifically relevant and PERFECT for working with you.

    The tune changes, but the trumpet stays the same. Thats how you know it isnt really a clarinet in disguise... because when the true colors start shining and the potential for it to be something else was examined... it was still a trumpet all the way to the bone...no matter how you sandblast it, just like you expected to be.

    Sure it can change tunes, but it always speaks with its own authentic tone...in every tune its the trumpet.

    Some people may not like your tune, but if you change everytime someone new passes by, then you will miss the true trumpet lovers and they will miss you and you will never be comfortable in your own space.


    In other words, just be honest about your reviews. If people think you are bashing, and you ARENT...then

    A: You dont have trust with your market anyway if they give you that little credit.
    B: You are just getting closer to finding the group that works best with your particular brand of style and disqualifying everyone else, so its okay.

    Ultimately; Dont worry about anyones customers opinions but your own... instead of worrying about losing market share by being real, worry more about GAINING it by being real.

    Isntead of being afraid that a custopmer wont like you because you apeared to be trolling...they may even like you MORE because your opinion was valid... or they may hate you for no good reason. In any event how can you find your vibrational match if you arent sending out your authentic vibe?

    Im ranting...out again.
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