How I Lost About 3,000 Subscribers Last Year

[JasonParker]

By using double opt-in.

Whoever first said double opt-in is the law ought to never teach internet marketing ever again.

[LoveLinguist]

Did those 3000 subscribers ever BUY anything from you?

Sherrie Rose
The Love Linguist

[JasonParker]

Originally Posted by LoveLinguist

Did those 3000 subscribers ever BUY anything from you?

Sherrie Rose
The Love Linguist

They never confirmed their e-mail addresses to be on my list in the first place.

[jasonl70]

i use single opt-in as well.

get ready for all of the 'i want a responsive list' arguements blah blah blah..everyone who WOULD confirm on a double opt-in list are STILL on your list if it's single opt-in.. so you aren't losing any sales with single opt-in.

[JasonParker]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

i use single opt-in as well.

get ready for all of the 'i want a responsive list' arguements blah blah blah..everyone who WOULD confirm on a double opt-in list are STILL on your list if it's single opt-in.. so you aren't losing any sales with single opt-in.

EXACTLY!

I can't believe how much money I lost because of using double opt-in. Probably like $10,000 or more.

[dsmpublishing]

Yes but how many complaints from people that put details of others they dont like on your single opt-in list. I feel alot more secure with double opt-in. Plus it means i get a lot less bounced broadcasts!

[n7 Studios]

Just read this with interest.

I'm by no means an IM expert, but the double / single opt in argument poses the question: how do you ensure a quality subscriber list with a single opt in (i.e. Jason's "responsive list" that he mentions)?

For example, what if the visitor enters the wrong email addresses due to a typo?

Or your opt-in form is being spammed with fake email addresses, unless recaptcha is used?

Or someone types in someone else's email address?

In email campaigns I've done, I'd much rather send out an email to 1,000 genuine subscribers than 1,000 genuine + 1,000 fakes.

I see Jason's point about how both ensure you have the genuine subscribers anyway - so you certainly aren't losing sales. But surely you're losing money on marketing to people who never subscribed, or have a fake email address?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[Neil Morgan]

The single/double opt-in is one of those debates that is often falls in favour of double opt-in because autoresponder networks need to protect their networks from spam complaints and therefore push it.

Tens of thousands of users with thousands of subscribers each equates to millions of potential problems.

You can definitely see their point.

Only you can decide if the solution to their problem is affecting your bottom line.

I use single opt-in, always have (for 9 years), and that suits my business.

Cheers,

Neil

[Rob Summers]

Ive got a few lists ranging in size from 20k to 150k and they are all single opt in. Ive never found double opt in to be worth the drop off, good leads can get wasted simply because you requested a double opt in and hadnt built a relationship with them yet.

Services like icontact allow you to paste your lead data in without opt in or use single opt in for new leads which is very helpful.

[jasondinner]

DUDE, Jason, and my fellow Warriors - I wish I never set double opt-in on for ANY of the lists
I ever built in my Aweber account.

On some of my sites, people get access to my content before they have to confirm.

For example - 404 Secrets

They submitted their name and email address to get access in the first place, AND got access.

I believe I should be able to mail them whether they single opted in or double opted in.

I run Neil Morgan's ARP 3 on my server and import my leads from my butterfly sites manually so I
can mail to the leads that didn't confirm, but still got access to my content.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

I can paste a laundry list of companies that do single opt-in.

However for me personally, mailing from your own server is a pain in the ass and your
deliverability WILL decrease over time faster than a 3rd party service who's only job is
to optimize deliverability.

I'm just sayin

Jay Dinner

[JasonParker]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

DUDE, Jason, and my fellow Warriors - I wish I never set double opt-in on for ANY of the lists
I ever built in my Aweber account.

On some of my sites, people get access to my content before they have to confirm.

For example - 404 Secrets

They submitted their name and email address to get access in the first place, AND got access.

I believe I should be able to mail them whether they single opted in or double opted in.

I run Neil Morgan's ARP 3 on my server and import my leads from my butterfly sites manually so I
can mail to the leads that didn't confirm, but still got access to my content.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

I can paste a laundry list of companies that do single opt-in.

However for me personally, mailing from your own server is a pain in the ass and your
deliverability WILL decrease over time faster than a 3rd party service who's only job is
to optimize deliverability.

I'm just sayin

Jay Dinner

DUDE J!!! You just gave me the greatest idea. I wonder if I can export my unverified "subscribers" from the past year from AWeber to another autoresponder (using eMail Aces, but need Autoresponse Plus).

[jasondinner]

HELL YEAH YOU CAN!!! Those are YOUR leads.

Aweber doesn't own them.

P.S. I never thought of that either

This conversation probably shouldn't be public either - oops

[JasonParker]

Originally Posted by jasondinner

HELL YEAH YOU CAN!!! Those are YOUR leads.

Aweber doesn't own them.

P.S. I never thought of that either

This conversation probably shouldn't be public either - oops

Probably not at all! lol...

[JasonParker]

Getting the information inside a spreadsheet document sure doesn't make it easy to import...

[Wayne Cochrane]

Hello Jason[Dinner]!

You said:

"However for me personally, mailing from your own server is a pain in the ass and your
deliverability WILL decrease over time faster than a 3rd party service who's only job is
to optimize deliverability."

Were you referring to AutoresponsePlus [as a pain in the ass]?

I am looking at options for an autoresponder.
I am not interested in Aweber for several reasons [mainly the price: $149(?) per month for 10,001 subscribers is too much for me at this time.] Getresponse is more reasonable but I have read that it is much more difficult to use than Aweber.

[ALL recommendations I have seen from internet marketers were for Aweber with some listing Getresponse as the only other viable option BUT all these marketers were probably Aweber affiliates who would make good recurring monthly revenue from Aweber. But, I have witnessed from email received that the majority of internet martketers do seem to be using Aweber. However I don't like Aweber!]

I have also considered AutoresponsePlus but was less than impressed with the response to my questions [via email].

I would prefer downloadable software that I can install on my server so that I am in control and I am not renting and spending money indefinitely.

I would be very grateful if you could elaborate on your experiences and your opinions of the different autoresponders and types of autoresponders you have used!

Anyone else willing to share their experiences and/or recommendations?
I would be very grateful!

Neil Morgan, I am very willing to listen if you have some recommendations or some information [I would still consider AutorepsonsePlus.]

Inability to find the right autoresponder is causing me major delays in getting my business started.

Can anyone help?

I would be VERY grateful!

Wayne.

[KenSilver]

Originally Posted by Wayne Cochrane

!
I am looking at options for an autoresponder.
I am not interested in Aweber for several reasons [mainly the price: $149(?) per month for 10,001 subscribers is too much for me at this time.] Getresponse is more reasonable but I have read that it is much more difficult to use than Aweber.

I've been with GetResponse for years - maybe since 1998 - and they're excellent value. I've also tried Aweber for some other accounts, but perhaps due to being more familiar with GetResponse, I found GetResponse far easier to use.

I'm a single opt-in enthusiast, and here's why: Some years ago I did a backup that reinstated my account as double opt-in, and watched in horror as my daily opt-ins dropped by 2/3rds.

My sales dropped by the same proportion until I figured what I was doing wrong.

I need subscribers and I don't care whether they are hot or lukewarm to start with. The hot ones buy straight away... the others follow a little later. All I know is that some time down the track the disinterested will find something that attracts them, and bingo - another sale. I need both kinds, and anything that prevents them signing is a barrier to sales.

There is only one secret to success... and it's massive action. You only get to that point on the net by moving massive numbers. Anything that prevents, slows down or stops it, will kill your sales dead, for sure.

[gareth]

Hey guys when you have used double optin have you set them a time limit ?

Ive found many that have finally opted in months later. So eventually my douple optin rate was over 90%.

But that sucks to wait weeks later.

[jasondinner]

Originally Posted by Wayne Cochrane

Hello Jason[Dinner]!

You said:

"However for me personally, mailing from your own server is a pain in the ass and your
deliverability WILL decrease over time faster than a 3rd party service who's only job is
to optimize deliverability."

Were you referring to AutoresponsePlus [as a pain in the ass]?

I am looking at options for an autoresponder.
I am not interested in Aweber for several reasons [mainly the price: $149(?) per month for 10,001 subscribers is too much for me at this time.] Getresponse is more reasonable but I have read that it is much more difficult to use than Aweber.

[ALL recommendations I have seen from internet marketers were for Aweber with some listing Getresponse as the only other viable option BUT all these marketers were probably Aweber affiliates who would make good recurring monthly revenue from Aweber. But, I have witnessed from email received that the majority of internet martketers do seem to be using Aweber. However I don't like Aweber!]

I have also considered AutoresponsePlus but was less than impressed with the response to my questions [via email].

I would prefer downloadable software that I can install on my server so that I am in control and I am not renting and spending money indefinitely.

I would be very grateful if you could elaborate on your experiences and your opinions of the different autoresponders and types of autoresponders you have used!

Anyone else willing to share their experiences and/or recommendations?
I would be very grateful!

Neil Morgan, I am very willing to listen if you have some recommendations or some information [I would still consider AutorepsonsePlus.]

Inability to find the right autoresponder is causing me major delays in getting my business started.

Can anyone help?

I would be VERY grateful!

Wayne.

Autoresponse Plus is GREAT for what I need it for, and Neil's support is extremely
responsive and helpful.

I use it in addition to Aweber. I've been using it with Aweber since late 2007 when I
realized that I should be emailing everyone that has had access to my stuff regardless
of email confirmation status.

You only pay once and you can install it on your own server, but I wouldn't use it unless
you had the same issues as I did. (see my previous post)

No offense to Neil at all, but there are a few things about it that aggravates me.

But there are things about everything I use, including Aweber, that aggravates me.

If I didn't have to use it, I probably wouldn't. But it's always good to have in case an
Aweber or a GetResponse tell you that you can't use their service any more and they
just email you a zip file of all your leads and shut down your acccount.

Thankfully, it hasn't ever happened to me and I hope it never does.

But it HAS happened. And **** does happen. LOL

J

[Chris Hunter]

Originally Posted by JasonParker

DUDE J!!! You just gave me the greatest idea. I wonder if I can export my unverified "subscribers" from the past year from AWeber to another autoresponder (using eMail Aces, but need Autoresponse Plus).

Jason,

Have you built a list of buyers with a single opt-in list?

Seems like you could have the best of both worlds by making a sale, sending them to an opt-in form, then to their product.

As a matter of fact, I just had that happen to me today with a seller using 1ShoppingCart!

Just realized that!

Man, I'm slow sometimes!

Give it a try.

[Neil Morgan]

Wayne

Please feel free to email me if you have further questions:

service [...AT...] autoresponseplus.com

No offense to Neil at all, but there are a few things about it that aggravates me. But there are things about everything I use, including Aweber, that aggravates me.

Now's your chance to have those put right because I'm in the thick of ARP4 (the new version) right now.

Cheers,

Neil

[Roy Carter]

Quick question guys...

I've been using Getresponse for a good while now and always on double opt-in but I have read a few times that a lot of the top marketers only use single opt-in and this thread has got me thinking, that's for sure!

As I've only ever used Getresponse with double opt-in am I stuck with that on all campaigns or can I make new campaigns single opt-in?

If I can, any advice on how to do that would be gratefully received.

Thanks Guys.

Roy

[DavidSaaf]

Double opt-in is so important and critical for many considerations! If your free offer is good enough to convert your visitors into subscribers, I see no reason for why your prospects will not confirm their emails.. except in case they don't know what's the meaning of "Please, confirm your email address, before.... blah blah blah"

[Michael Nguyen]

its best to be on the safe side. I've only started list building, and I've had 97 opt ins but only 67 confirmed. Dont wanna get accused of spam now do we?

[Chris Williamson]

Your list is your greatest asset. Your relationship with your customers. You're better off having $10,000 less dollars but a much higher rate of raving fans. People complain and even report newsletters they DID subscribe to as spam... usually because they forgot that they subscribed!

Once your domain or IP address or whatever other things can get blocked by the majors (yahoo msn aol hotmail etc) its black magic to me how you're suppose to redeem yourself.

David at DoubleYourDating.com is a great example. He constantly has to buy new domain names to put in his newsletters otherwise his emails get filtered by the hundreds of thousands... and that's even with double opt-in.

I dunno maybe you still prefer single opt-in but that's just my 2 cents.

[fireups]

I have used the second optin as access to certain materials that the visitor would like access to. Just like you do for the first optin.. except this time direct the user to the email they have just received and provide instant access from the link. That has been an effective way for my clients to validate the email address

[Wayne Cochrane]

Ken,

Reassuring to hear some good news about GetResponse!

[quote=KenSilver;531945]I've been with GetResponse for years - maybe since 1998 - and they're excellent value. I've also tried Aweber for some other accounts, but perhaps due to being more familiar with GetResponse, I found GetResponse far easier to use.

Thanks!
Wayne.

[Wayne Cochrane]

Jason,

Thankyou for the reply!

Originally Posted by jasondinner

Autoresponse Plus is GREAT for what I need it for, and Neil's support is extremely
responsive and helpful.

I use it in addition to Aweber. I've been using it with Aweber since late 2007 when I
realized that I should be emailing everyone that has had access to my stuff regardless
of email confirmation status.

You only pay once and you can install it on your own server, but I wouldn't use it unless
you had the same issues as I did. (see my previous post)

No offense to Neil at all, but there are a few things about it that aggravates me.

But there are things about everything I use, including Aweber, that aggravates me.

If I didn't have to use it, I probably wouldn't. But it's always good to have in case an
Aweber or a GetResponse tell you that you can't use their service any more and they
just email you a zip file of all your leads and shut down your acccount.

Thankfully, it hasn't ever happened to me and I hope it never does.

But it HAS happened. And **** does happen. LOL

J

Now I understand your strategy. Almost all the software I use has limitations that I find frustrating. I am also wary of being left in the lurch by 3rd party web software companies or having to abide by their sometimes arbitrary-seeming rules. I like to run my own show. I am not good at following the dictates of others.

Thanks again Jason!

To get on the topic, thankyou for all who are contributing to this double versus single optin conversation. It is something I have been concerned about for some time. I am following this with interest, but as I have no experience yet I have nothing to contribute.

Thanks all!
Wayne.

[Wayne Cochrane]

Originally Posted by Neil Morgan

Wayne

Please feel free to email me if you have further questions:

service [...AT...] autoresponseplus.com

Thanks Neil!
Wayne.

[Wayne Cochrane]

I have noticed that some marketers make a mistake with the double-optin. They indicate that the confirmation link must be clicked in the email sent but then redirect to the download page for the bait freebie BEFORE the confirmation email is clicked. This allows downloading of the gift without confirming the email subscription. Some people will of course not confirm if they already have the gift. This could be one cause of the failure of the double-optin system.

[Wayne Cochrane]

A variation on this mistake is sending a second email ['Welcome' or 'Download'] with direct download links or links to the download page before the 'Confirmation' email is clicked. Same result, the 'prospect' has little incentive to confirm. These mistakes would contribute to the poor statistical result of the double-optin.

[robd1302]

I thought single opt-in was against the Can-SPAM act. I've been signed up for more lists (and even membership sites) than I can count, and they all clearly have single-opt in, since I didn't actually signup for any of them.

I was one of the first people to join Yahoo! in 1996, so my email address is four letters, and that probably has something to do with it, but it drives me crazy when I get added to a list or site, and then constantly get emails. The worst part is when I try to get off the list, and they ask me to login to change my email preferences. How can I login when I never signed up in the first place! (I usually use the 'forgot password' link and eventually I get of the list, but still)

Anyway, I think single opt-in is just irresponsible marketing - I don't care what kind of money is being left on the table. That type of marketing is what makes lawmakers feel justified in creating laws that make our jobs harder.

[Wayne Cochrane]

Another mistake that could lead to poorer stats for the double-optin is where the marketer uses different names on the website and in the email. If the company name or '... team' or whatever used in the email header or signature is different to the name of the website or the personal name of the marketer used on the website or vice-versa the 'prospect' receiving the email may be confused 'who the hell is this?' and fail to confirm or even hit the spam button. This could also lead to poorer stats for the double-optin but all these mistakes I have listed in the last three posts are failures by the marketer or the software configuration not the double-optin. But the double-optin may get the blame.

[Wayne Cochrane]

It is very rarely that I come across someone using single-optin and it always surprises me. It is certainly open to abuse by unethical marketers and I feel is much more likely to result in a spam complaint.

I agree with robd1302.
I feel it is better for responsible marketers to use double-optin.
[But I understand that it will probably result in less sales.]
Which is more important?

[Wayne Cochrane]

The single-optin is open to abuse by unethical marketers and is much more likely to result in spam complaints.
I agree with robd1302.
I feel that the double-optin is the better choice for responsible marketers.
[Although I understand that it will probably result in less smaller email lists.]
Which is more important?

[p2y]

I use single optin as well, double optin never was never worth the drop in leads and as long as you don't blast them 5 times a week you won't get many complaints.

[Wayne Cochrane]

[Sorry about that last doubled-up post!
The first one wasn't visible. I thought I must have refreshed the page without hitting the 'Post Quick Reply' button,
so I wrote it again and then they both appeared!]

But to the point of this post:

I just now followed a link from a post in this thread [yes a fellow member who posted here] and experienced one of the possible causes of failure to confirm optin.

I signed up for the offer of a free ebook from the members' website. The optin page was signed with her name. But when I immediately checked for and received the confirmation email it was in a business name, there was no no mention of her name. And while the business name was the same as the name of the website and was in the footer I had not noticed it. What I had noticed and remembered was her personal name, which was not anywhere in the confirmation email. So my first reaction on seeing the email was 'who is this from?' But as I was actually looking for this email I went back to the website and then saw that the business name of the email was the same as the domain name of the website.

However if I had waited until later and other emails had come in and I had already closed the webpage I may have remained confused and failed to confirm the subscription.

It would have been another failure of the double-optin.

But this can be avoided!

Consistency with the names in the website and the emails could avoid this portential problem.

Many people [like me] relate more to personal names than business names or domain names.
If the personal name is in the website [as I feel it always best to be] then include it also in the email.

If we are consistent and use all the same names in the webpage and the email this confusion and failure or the double optin can be reduced or avoided.

[robd1302]

Originally Posted by d0rhk

If they sign up theyre interested right?

Except for when they don't actually signup. Anyone can enter any email address into a single opt-in form, which means anytime someone mistypes the address (by accident or on purpose), you're now sending unsolicited mail - also known as spam

To me, it's not worth the risk, and it's not responsible.

[Ken Strong]

Originally Posted by robd1302

Except for when they don't actually signup. Anyone can enter any email address into a single opt-in form, which means anytime someone mistypes the address (by accident or on purpose), you're now sending unsolicited mail - also known as spam

That's definitely something that needs to be considered -- however, in these cases there would still be an unsubscribe link in each email as required by law.

You could always customize your unsubscribe message like some marketers do -- "You're getting this email because you signed up for the Blah Blah list, if you've gotten this in error please click on the link below to unsubscribe," etc.

[robd1302]

That's true. Most of the single opt-in lists I get put on by strangers make it much harder than that to unsubscribe. You could still get legitimate spam complaints, but I wouldn't envision too many people being angry about something like that.

[Fabian Tan]

Both methods have their merits.

For me, I use both single opt-in and double opt-in.

Using double opt-in ensures you are safe but I use traffic generation methods like PPC or coregistration, and find that confirmation rates are often much lower. Visitors from these sources are generally just browsing and probably more click happy, they are more impatient so they are less likely to take that extra step to confirm their opt-in.

For methods like emails from JV partners and article marketing, double opt-in still works good.

On the safe side, many experts predict that double opt-in will be a must in the future. Eventually, tougher action will be taken on 'spam' (even if people opted in), so expect double opt-in to be required any day now.

Fabian

[poppatopz]

i only do single opt-in when i sign up with any site period. I hate having to prove things to people just to get a little newsletter --just my two cents